Doctor Who Thread V: "Brave heart, Thread." [SPOILERS]

[Phelix-Mu]

Spoiler: More Audio Spoilers

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Actually, if I understand that correctly in the audio plays, Rassilon didn't invent stellar engineering or time travel, that was Omega. But Rassilon invented Regeneration.

Now, the Audio actually explains Rassilon's history, and explains some that can be connected to the End of Time. In ancient history, he was lost in an alternate dimension, right around the time the Time Lords finally ascended to what we know them as from the show. Later, the Doctor was near when he was brought back.

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Curious. I thought an almost identical thing befell Omega. Several of the old series episodes deal with how Omega was abandoned by his Time Lord brethren in some dimension or other, and he tried repeatedly to escape (in 3rd regen and again in...lol....5th? My database is crashing.)

Yes, I recall. In 5th, he was specifically angry, believing himself to have been betrayed.

Spoiler: Old Show Rant

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Also, I think it's time to reintroduce Morbius. That guy was like five kinds of cool/evil/badass, and only got a one-ep appearance (not even close to enough for a LORD OF TIME).

[Mauve Shirt]

I greatly enjoyed that episode, and look forward to the great many plots that can burst from this concept. I'm tired of "The doctor has a companion who is odd" or "The doctor is sad" series arcs.

[dps]

I enjoyed the special, but I gotta say that my main emotion right now is relief. I was so worried that Moffat was going to screw this up, but I think this is about as good as we could have expected. Oh, there are some things we can quibble about, but except for

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not telling us how the Doctor and Clara got out of his timestream

, they aren't really important IMO. Sure,

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Tom Baker's appearance makes no sense in context

, but do we care? I sure don't.

[Thufir]

I was fully prepared to be hideously disappointed by that. Instead I loved it and my brain refuses to analyse it right now.

[Phelix-Mu]

I greatly enjoyed that episode, and look forward to the great many plots that can burst from this concept. I'm tired of "The doctor has a companion who is odd" or "The doctor is sad" series arcs.

They did put two "companion is odd" right next to each other...and so close after Donna Noble, too. They should retire that one for a while and just have some random people (who are special, just less special than Noble, Pond, and Oswald). I'd also appreciate the return of the long-lost non-human companion. I know this hasn't been much of a thing in the new series, but it did used to be, and worked just fine (and a little more variety is something that rarely kills long-running shows, as long as it's done with thought and care).

[Soras Teva Gee]

Well I'm glad I waited until this evening so I could watch this uninterrupted attention....

And. It. Was. Awesome.

Oh of course a bit of y'know... a mess... but the best part? That was exactly the point! Timey and Wimey. Glorious and Perfect.

Couple of notes:

Spoiler: On Numbering Now

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I saw on the last page some people saying they ID'ed Capaldi as 13.

They did not, they said "All Thirteen" and cut to him. A perhaps subtle but important distinction.

Spoiler: And one last thing...

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GALLIFREY LIVES!

I feel the urge to go graffiti that all over.

[Phelix-Mu]

It really was a kind of tour de force.

Spoiler: Day of the Doctor

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It encapsulated the best parts of the classic Doctor Who morality tale (the Doctor, wise man of the universe, tries to keep the rest of the cast from making some terrible decision) with the awesomeness of time travel (the Doctor, wise man of the universe, is giving the same advice to himself...). And, just when it seems that the Doctor is going to come to terms with his past crimes...BOOM...Clara speaks up and rescues the Doctor again, helping him to remember that "there's always a way."

[Phelix-Mu]

Sure,

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Tom Baker's appearance makes no sense in context

, but do we care? I sure don't.

Actually, imo,

Spoiler: Day of the Doctor spoiler

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Tom Baker's character kind of mentioned that; "you may find yourself revisiting old ones [faces]". It's been shakily established that most Time Lords don't actually die violently. Rather, the body reaches an age such that it gets feeble, and it is simply convenient for the Time Lord to change. It occurs to me that it may...I stress, may be possible to somehow salvage time from past generations that died violently before the body was totally "used up." No idea how they'd fluff that, but in the past, the Master repeatedly transcended the normal limit on regenerations, so they've established that the this is all kind of fuzzy.

[Aedilred]

They did put two "companion is odd" right next to each other...and so close after Donna Noble, too. They should retire that one for a while and just have some random people (who are special, just less special than Noble, Pond, and Oswald). I'd also appreciate the return of the long-lost non-human companion. I know this hasn't been much of a thing in the new series, but it did used to be, and worked just fine (and a little more variety is something that rarely kills long-running shows, as long as it's done with thought and care).

Although I broadly agree on the "odd companion" thing, I think it's worth noting that the majority of NewWho's "odd" companions have become so because they've travelled with the Doctor, which is not really that surprising when you consider that the Doctor's life is thoroughly extraordinary. The only ones I can think of who were odd before the Doctor got to them were River, Clara and Amy, but even those are debatable because of circular timelines:

Spoiler: Details

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Rose was "ordinary" before the Doctor picked her up, and became extraordinary after she looked into the heart of the TARDIS. Arguably, the Doctor picked her up because the Moment screwed up the timestream and showed her to him in advance, but at the point she was chosen she was largely unremarkable.
Jack was "ordinary" until Rose resurrected him.
Martha and Mickey were both "ordinary".
Other than the Racnoss fiddling about with her, Donna was "ordinary", until the metacrisis.
Wilf and Adelaide Brooke were and remained "ordinary".
Amy became extraordinary because she grew up in a room affected by the exploding TARDIS.
Rory was "ordinary" until he was killed and brought back.
River was extraordinary because she was conceived on the TARDIS.
Clara became extraordinary after entering the Doctor's timestream. This one's circular, but had she never met the Doctor then Clara Prime would have remained relatively ordinary.

Perhaps ironically, the only one who became in any way remarkable (on a non-human scale) before the Doctor met them was Donna, thanks to her fiance. Donna being the one who was special because she wasn't special, or something.

As for non-human companions, Strax and Vastra probably count.

[The Extinguisher]

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My absolute favourite thing about it was that they didn't try and hit us over the head with feels and sadness and things like that. It was fun. It was enjoyable. It was very funny at some points. And it was serious and dramatic without being tearjerking. It's fantastic.

An actual genuine celebration of Doctor Who. Not just another big special.

[Seerow]

Okay so I'm only a casual watcher of Doctor Who, so maybe someone here can clear up this timey-whimey timeline for me.

Spoiler: Today's Special, plus other stuff from the past

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In this special the big thing is the Doctor avoids destroying Gallifrey by freezing it into time, but due to timeline crossovers, he forgets this (except in his most recent incarnation). This is supposed to be a huge twist, because up until now the Doctor has already destroyed Gallifrey (or believes he did, depending on how you view the cyclical timeline).

But from what I remember of the big Return of the Timelords special (I think it was the one where David Tenant's doctor died, but I'm not sure), the Timelords tried to come back (via the Master maybe? Like I said I'm casual, details are fuzzy, which is why I'm asking), and the Doctor stopped them from returning here. If at this point he didn't realize they were locked away in time rather than dead, why is this not treated as a much bigger revalation/surprise? Why is it still a surprise to the newest doctor? If the newest doctor now has the quest to restore Gallifrey, what has changed since the previous doctor locked them back away?

Basically this seems to me to contradict what happened in the other special, and I'm trying to figure out how the two are reconciled. I'd go with "It's a completely new timeline spawned by this change" but if that's the case how did the previous special happen in the first place? Just really confused here

[Helanna]

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An actual genuine celebration of Doctor Who. Not just another big special.

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I think this perfectly encapsulates why I loved this so much.

It's also why I don't mind if they have to do a bit of retconning to make this mesh with The End of Time. I've always found Doctor Who to be a pretty optimistic, fun show at its core - I like this version of events a lot more than the one where the only possible option was for the Doctor to destroy Gallifrey completely. This version is a lot more hopeful and more in line with the show's theme (in my opinion), and I like that.

[Aedilred]

Okay so I'm only a casual watcher of Doctor Who, so maybe someone here can clear up this timey-whimey timeline for me.

Spoiler: Today's Special, plus other stuff from the past

Show

In this special the big thing is the Doctor avoids destroying Gallifrey by freezing it into time, but due to timeline crossovers, he forgets this (except in his most recent incarnation). This is supposed to be a huge twist, because up until now the Doctor has already destroyed Gallifrey (or believes he did, depending on how you view the cyclical timeline).

But from what I remember of the big Return of the Timelords special (I think it was the one where David Tenant's doctor died, but I'm not sure), the Timelords tried to come back (via the Master maybe? Like I said I'm casual, details are fuzzy, which is why I'm asking), and the Doctor stopped them from returning here. If at this point he didn't realize they were locked away in time rather than dead, why is this not treated as a much bigger revalation/surprise? Why is it still a surprise to the newest doctor? If the newest doctor now has the quest to restore Gallifrey, what has changed since the previous doctor locked them back away?

Basically this seems to me to contradict what happened in the other special, and I'm trying to figure out how the two are reconciled. I'd go with "It's a completely new timeline spawned by this change" but if that's the case how did the previous special happen in the first place? Just really confused here

Timey wimey .

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Rassilon was trying to move the whole of Gallifrey through time and space to Earth to escape the last moments of the Time War before the Doctor destroyed it. The sound of drums and all that nonsense was to get around the timelock that resulted from the Doctor's having used the Moment, I think. The Time Lords were still (due to be?) destroyed in that continuity, they were just attempting to escape that through time travel.

[Friv]

Okay so I'm only a casual watcher of Doctor Who, so maybe someone here can clear up this timey-whimey timeline for me.

Spoiler: Today's Special, plus other stuff from the past

Show

In this special the big thing is the Doctor avoids destroying Gallifrey by freezing it into time, but due to timeline crossovers, he forgets this (except in his most recent incarnation). This is supposed to be a huge twist, because up until now the Doctor has already destroyed Gallifrey (or believes he did, depending on how you view the cyclical timeline).

But from what I remember of the big Return of the Timelords special (I think it was the one where David Tenant's doctor died, but I'm not sure), the Timelords tried to come back (via the Master maybe? Like I said I'm casual, details are fuzzy, which is why I'm asking), and the Doctor stopped them from returning here. If at this point he didn't realize they were locked away in time rather than dead, why is this not treated as a much bigger revalation/surprise? Why is it still a surprise to the newest doctor? If the newest doctor now has the quest to restore Gallifrey, what has changed since the previous doctor locked them back away?

Basically this seems to me to contradict what happened in the other special, and I'm trying to figure out how the two are reconciled. I'd go with "It's a completely new timeline spawned by this change" but if that's the case how did the previous special happen in the first place? Just really confused here

Okay, this is crazy time stuff, so keep that in mind? But here's the basic premise.

Spoiler: Pass the Timey-Wimey

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The Rassilon and High Council from End of Time was present on the day that the Doctor unleashed the Moment, but before he did so. Their plan was to bypass the Time Locks that were surrounding the War, jump their entire planet past the moment that the Doctor killed them all, and thus survive the end of their world.

This means that the Time Lock was already in place, retroactively or otherwise, some time before the Moment was activated.

Because of this, my assumption is that, as the Time War went on, more and more sections of it were getting Time-locked. As the Daleks gathered for their final assault, they successfully time-locked Gallifrey, and were thus able to attack it by conventional means. At the same time, things were rippling backwards and forwards, and the Time Lords were putting together a plan to win the war by escaping the Time Lock, which would destroy all of reality by tearing time apart, and let them build a new one.

The Doctor destroyed that plan, unravelling Rassilon's goals. Then, he pressed all of Gallifrey into a frozen moment instead of destroying it.

[Seerow]

Okay, this is crazy time stuff, so keep that in mind? But here's the basic premise.

Spoiler: Pass the Timey-Wimey

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The Rassilon and High Council from End of Time was present on the day that the Doctor unleashed the Moment, but before he did so. Their plan was to bypass the Time Locks that were surrounding the War, jump their entire planet past the moment that the Doctor killed them all, and thus survive the end of their world.

This means that the Time Lock was already in place, retroactively or otherwise, some time before the Moment was activated.

Because of this, my assumption is that, as the Time War went on, more and more sections of it were getting Time-locked. As the Daleks gathered for their final assault, they successfully time-locked Gallifrey, and were thus able to attack it by conventional means. At the same time, things were rippling backwards and forwards, and the Time Lords were putting together a plan to win the war by escaping the Time Lock, which would destroy all of reality by tearing time apart, and let them build a new one.

The Doctor destroyed that plan, unravelling Rassilon's goals. Then, he pressed all of Gallifrey into a frozen moment instead of destroying it.

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Okay so if I'm understanding it right, the really dumbed down version of this is:

1) Gallifrey is attacked
2) Rassilon freezes Gallifrey in such a way that it will destroy everything.
3) Doctor 10 in the future stops them when this frozen moment tries to come to fruition.
4) New episode stuff happens, and Gallifrey is actually locked away, rather than frozen however happened before.

I guess it makes as much sense as anything involving time travel. Basically the real confusion was two separate time locks. Even seeing something in this episode referencing the End of Time deal (ie when he says "My worst nightmare" add a comment about "Didn't he just get done dooming us all a few minutes ago?" or something along those lines) would have helped make it jive better. Either way, thanks for the explanation.

[Soras Teva Gee]

I think we can put End of Time and Day of the Doctor's hanging issues together in a couple of ways:

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Okay first the problem is what about that whole the Time Lords went **** all evil and will destroy the universe with the Ultimate Sanction.. thing.

Well I see a couple of solutions:

1) Oops! - Moffat's deficiencies with arcs strikes again. Go on try and connect the Pandorica and River Song events. Ehh go to option 4.

2) Fixed! - The 13 Doctors took care of it while saving Gallifrey.

3) Sequel! - They didn't fix it, but then Gallifrey isn't out of the woods yet either... dun dun dunnn.

4) Timey Wimey! - Explains itself really. Or doesn't. Or doesn't really matter dammit didn't you listen to Tom Baker!

I favor option 4 myself.

[Pex]

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I have a suspicion that Tom Baker doing the cameo is his way of apologizing to the fans for not being in the 20th anniversary special.

Apology accepted.

[HamHam]

Just saw it.

If you can't remember your own continuity, just stop trying to do an arc show.

[Lord Raziere]

uh I keep trying BBC America but every time I do, the episode place where it loads, keeps loading but it never actually finishes loading it up. what do I do? I want to watch Day of the Doctor...

[SuperPanda]

Day of the Doctor + End of Time

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It is pretty clear that they are happening at the same time relative to War Doctor's time-stream.

End of Time occurs at some point after the Doctor has stolen the moment but before he has chosen to use it. Even if I chose to think of End of Time happening after - it would have been them trying to escape the painting and failing that... and that would explain one possible explanation of the "time lock"

I never had the impression that a time-lock was actually as simple as freezing a moment in time (though RTD did use the term that way in the nuwho season 4 finale ... but I try not to think about that finale. The term was more generally used to imply a set of events - fixed points in time and space - which time travel can not be used to get into or out of... the only way out of a time-lock was to survive until one of your personal timestream was no longer tied to the events inside it.

In essense, if you were going to live through a time-lock the only way to do it would be to keep trying, over and over, until you finally got it right (Quantum Leap style). The Doctor had spent all that time thinking that he'd done it when he destroyed his people and the Daleks, now he knows otherwise.

On the moment:

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I love the idea of a super-weapon which is sentient and doesn't want to be used. I love the execution of that concept here, where "she" is willing to allow the Doctor to make his choice, but is trying to convince him otherwise. Its clear from her body-language and actions that she doesn't want him to use the weapon, but she never restains or stops him. She even looks worried/sad at points because he's chosen to. That made a wonderful dynamic.

I was worried going into this special, not because I thought it might not be a fitting tribute to the show, but because I was worried the team couldn't pull it off. I found Doctor Who through the 2005 relaunch and 9 (or is it now 10?) was my Doctor. He was the Doctor from the moment I heard, "Pleasure to meet you, I'm the Doctor. Run for your life!" The mixture of absent-minded frantic heroism wrapped up in an old-young voice trying so hard to save everyone while fighting to stop them... that was the Doctor.

Tennant took the longest of my Doctors to prove that he was that, but when he was on form he was, well the only word I could properly use is Fantastic. Smith was the doctor from Fish Fingers and Custard, an edgier-nastier doctor but the doctor all the same. Through Smith's run I sometimes missed the deep wells of compassion I saw in Eccleston and Tennant's Doctors - then man who bluffed his way out of trouble because he really wasn't able to become a warrior and the man who blamed himself for each and every life he failed to save. Smith had a new and different dynamic and I loved it most of the time.

But Season 6 and 7 of nuWho had left me feeling ... flat.

To be fair, the Season 4.5 specials had too... with End of Time being a mixture of brilliant and rage-inducing terrible, Journey home just feeling flat bad, and Wedding of River Song (and her entire season 6 arc) making me wonder who stole Moffat's body and replaced him.

Then this happened, and it was Brilliant, Fantastic, and for god's sake so very clever. This was everything I love about the show and so much more.

If nothing else - and knowing that the production team will likely never see this message - I just wanted to say, somewhere - anywhere: Thank you. Thankyou for restoring my faith in the show, for giving back that very silly non-sense I've loved about this program for so many years now. I've not seen much of Old Who, but now I'm gonna go back and soak it in. This is the show I fell in love with and for the first time in a few years now I cannot wait to see what happens next.

[factotum]

Is this the one you mean?

Just sat down and watched that, and was half fanboy squeal and half laughing throughout. Thought Colin Baker, in particular, was showing a talent for comedy that was sadly missing through pretty much all of his run as the Doctor.

[Pex]

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It was a nice fake out with Clara teaching at Cole Hill School. You would think it was her being the Impossible Girl to help Doctor Hartnell, especially since they used his opening graphics. Then she hops on a motorcycle and rides through modern London.

[Finn Solomon]

You know if you have to have a secret vault filled with weapons so dangerous you have to nuke it to prevent it from falling into the wrong hands, why put it in London??

Chuck it underneath Salisbury Plain or something. Or at least Milton Keynes, no one would miss it if it's gone.

[turkishproverb]

Ah, The Five(ish) Doctors Reboot was fun. Good Anniversary Special.

Still.

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If the Time Lords are out there, that means Rassilon is out there. and...

Spoiler: Audio spoiler

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Rassilon was the one who had the great idea to try and prevent the evolution of every non-humanoid intelligent species across time and space so that only Tmelord-looking life would remain.

And he invented the Oubliette of Infinity.

I still maintain the guy in End of Time wasn't "the" Rassilon. Rassilon was just a common Time Lord name by that point. Like Mohammed, or Tim.

[factotum]

Something's just occurred to me. A few people are saying that the events of the special are a retcon of what was seen in "The End of Time", or that the show isn't following its own arc. However, what they talked about in "The End of Time" (Gallifrey being locked away) was itself a retcon--in the first season Nu Who episode "Dalek", the following exchange happens (spoilered for people who might not have seen the special):

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The Doctor: Well, you're never going to get any. Not ever.

Dalek: I DEMAND ORDERS!

The Doctor: Well they're never gonna *come*! Your race is dead! You all burned, all of you. Ten million ships on fire. The entire Dalek race, wiped out in one second.

Dalek: You lie!

The Doctor: I watched it happen. I *made* it happen!

Dalek: You destroyed us?

The Doctor: I had no other choice.

Dalek: And what of the Time Lords?

The Doctor: Dead. They burnt with you. The end of the last great Time War. Everyone lost.

That description of events matches what we saw in the special far more closely than "The End of Time", so if anything, this is Moffat reverting a retcon that RTD introduced, not adding one of his own.

[DJ Yung Crunk]

Well, think I'm tapped out of Doctor Who for the time being.

As for the special. It was... decent. Better than I thought it would be, for sure, but still kind of corny and ridiculous. Thusfar the best thing to come out of the 50th celebrations is The Five(ish) Doctors Reboot.

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Especially any scene with Moffat. Playing with the action figures, having fitful Androzani-esque dreams (featuring an impossibly funny Matthew Waterhouse cameo.)

EDIT: And the scene of Colin forcing his friends and family to watch Vengeance on Varos

[Kato]

Just saw it.

If you can't remember your own continuity, just stop trying to do an arc show.

Look, we found the person who wasn't happy Then again, Sunken Valley also hasn't posted yet, iirc.

You know if you have to have a secret vault filled with weapons so dangerous you have to nuke it to prevent it from falling into the wrong hands, why put it in London??

Chuck it underneath Salisbury Plain or something. Or at least Milton Keynes, no one would miss it if it's gone.

Yeah, that also was... a bit weird. Though, I guess they wanted to have it close to their headquarters? Maybe? But I'd really have preferred a safety measure that doesn't turn London in a nuclear wasteland.

[turkishproverb]

Is it weird to anyone else that everything EXCEPT the anniversary special they did seemed like a good celebration (Night, FISH Doctor, Time and Space) while the "special" felt like an over-bloated episode of a normal season of the show?

Thusfar the best thing to come out of the 50th celebrations is The Five(ish) Doctors Reboot.

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Especially any scene with Moffat. Playing with the action figures, having fitful Androzani-esque dreams (featuring an impossibly funny Matthew Waterhouse cameo.)

EDIT: And the scene of Colin forcing his friends and family to watch Vengeance on Varos

Crunk, we disagree from time to time, but you're alright.

[Finn Solomon]

Yeah, that also was... a bit weird. Though, I guess they wanted to have it close to their headquarters? Maybe? But I'd really have preferred a safety measure that doesn't turn London in a nuclear wasteland.

I blame the Civil Service and the Sir Humphreys who refuse to believe that there is anything outside of London.

[DJ Yung Crunk]

Crunk, we disagree from time to time, but you're alright.

Aw...

You're not so bad, yourself.