The Gamer

[Ibrinar]

Yeah found that weird too. For mages you can probably mostly base it on their amount of mana. For others it is a bit harder when you aren't living in a game like world and as far as I know only the MC sees things in game terms. And I would really prefer if it stays that way if the point isn't that they are in a game.

[Math_Mage]

I figure they're sieving on some characteristics that are noticeable to Abyss folks. It might not be perfect--in fact, it'd be interesting if it isn't perfect, and they let in some extreme case who's only powerful in a way they can't measure. Of course, I bet you could break the spell from the outside if you got enough A-rankers hammering on it.

[Aquillion]

Does the barrier strike anyone else as really weird? I get the concept of trapping lower level and stopping higher level people from entering, but the concept of levels and even grading is sort of abstract/subjective/tied directly to the main character, so it seems weird to have a barrier that works off of something like a subjective measure of strength.

It seems like the letter-ranking is what everyone else uses, since we've heard multiple people refer to it by now. I would assume that it refers mostly to absolute strength and not to 'advancement' the way levels can, though -- the Abyss has a wide variation in powers, so it's useful for them to classify them like that.

The fact that they were able to key their barrier off it doesn't necessarily mean it has metaphysical significance -- they could simply be able to design their barrier for whatever criteria they want, including subjective stuff, and the magic just "judges" for them.

[Olinser]

Does the barrier strike anyone else as really weird? I get the concept of trapping lower level and stopping higher level people from entering, but the concept of levels and even grading is sort of abstract/subjective/tied directly to the main character, so it seems weird to have a barrier that works off of something like a subjective measure of strength.

Why is it weird? We've already seen 2 different fairly concrete measures of power - the Chunbumoon separate ability power into 5 classes, and multiple other Abyss power users have referred to a letter power system from A-E that appears to refer to combat power.

If I understand the ranking systems correctly, then essentially the Chunbumoon system of Shinin - Ren - Phantom - Yoma - Human serves to rank the power of the ability itself, while the Abyss system of A - B - C - D - E refers to the personal power of the user.

So essentially Jee-Han should probably be Shinin D at this point, while Sun-Il would probably be Human D (since he has no natural ability).

So, given that at least the A - B - C - D - E ranking system seems to be relatively widespread within the Abyss, and we've already been told about 'sensor' abilities, it stands to reason that some ability users could both detect and act upon the relative power levels of ability users, and exploit that with magic and illusion barriers.

[Olinser]

I figure they're sieving on some characteristics that are noticeable to Abyss folks. It might not be perfect--in fact, it'd be interesting if it isn't perfect, and they let in some extreme case who's only powerful in a way they can't measure. Of course, I bet you could break the spell from the outside if you got enough A-rankers hammering on it.

That's exactly what happened - Jee-Han is inside the barrier. In this case, the powers they can't measure are that he can amplify abilities to many times their base power - his energy bolt is a fairly low level attack, but when he actually charges his Spiral Energy Bolt to full power he unleashes a massively powerful attack, and his ability to literally create new abilities and magics on the spot.

[Thrawn183]

Well, the action seems to have fully heated up at this point.

[Fjolnir]

I am looking forward to seeing one of the big golems fall in the tiger pit he is digging...

[Olinser]

Well, the action seems to have fully heated up at this point.

Yep, we're also getting a decent measure of how powerful Jee-Han is starting to get - 2 level 52 golems (plus assorted mages on them) is by far the strongest threat he's seen so far.

[lord_khaine]

Yep, we're also getting a decent measure of how powerful Jee-Han is starting to get - 2 level 52 golems (plus assorted mages on them) is by far the strongest threat he's seen so far.

And it also seems like they got him completely outclassed powerwise.

But imo what we are seeing here is just how deceptively powerful his Gamers Mind ability is. Its letting him camly considder the situation, and come up with a trap instead of panicking or getting scared.

[Olinser]

And it also seems like they got him completely outclassed powerwise.

But imo what we are seeing here is just how deceptively powerful his Gamers Mind ability is. Its letting him camly considder the situation, and come up with a trap instead of panicking or getting scared.

Power levels aren't really clear - but he certainly isn't that outclassed. Other than a few spinning mana arrow shots (which did do fairly significant damage to the golem), he hasn't actually tried his big power shot yet. On the other hand, the golems haven't actually managed to do any kind of significant damage to him.

I imagine that's what he's building up to - drop them in a pit and drop a fully charged Spiral Energy Bolt on them to get rid of both of them at once.

[Ibrinar]

If he does that it will be interesting to see whether the Mages survive that or whether he kills 10 people at once. I would expect them to survive since it doesn't appear to be a particularly dark or brutal story. (Or one with an emphasis on realism which also leads to dead enemies instead of beat up enemies who just never appear again.).

[Math_Mage]

If he does that it will be interesting to see whether the Mages survive that or whether he kills 10 people at once. I would expect them to survive since it doesn't appear to be a particularly dark or brutal story. (Or one with an emphasis on realism which also leads to dead enemies instead of beat up enemies who just never appear again.).

I dunno, there've been some dark concepts introduced, at least at the setting level. If the writer wants to bring some of that darkness front and center, now seems like a good time for it.

[tyckspoon]

I dunno, there've been some dark concepts introduced, at least at the setting level. If the writer wants to bring some of that darkness front and center, now seems like a good time for it.

We've already been primed for at least one - in addition to letting him think from 'outside' the situation, like he was playing a game, the Gamer's Mind ability seems to contribute some lack of respect for the existence of those he fights. After all, in a game, killing Dark Mage B isn't any different from destroying Zombie A.. should be a fun few chapters when the reality of that crashes into his desire to maintain a normal morality and his good-guy self-image.

[lord_khaine]

Power levels aren't really clear - but he certainly isn't that outclassed. Other than a few spinning mana arrow shots (which did do fairly significant damage to the golem), he hasn't actually tried his big power shot yet. On the other hand, the golems haven't actually managed to do any kind of significant damage to him.

I imagine that's what he's building up to - drop them in a pit and drop a fully charged Spiral Energy Bolt on them to get rid of both of them at once.

Outclassed enough that a straight up fight would see him crushed.

His power shot is many times more powerful than his arrows, but it has the major drawback of being difficult to use, using both a lot of mana and from what we have seen requirering him to stand stil and charge it.

[Thrawn183]

Power levels aren't really clear - but he certainly isn't that outclassed. Other than a few spinning mana arrow shots (which did do fairly significant damage to the golem), he hasn't actually tried his big power shot yet. On the other hand, the golems haven't actually managed to do any kind of significant damage to him.

I imagine that's what he's building up to - drop them in a pit and drop a fully charged Spiral Energy Bolt on them to get rid of both of them at once.

Considering the attacks of note have come from mages and not the golems, a lot of this seems to be the distinction between sheer physical strength/defense and power. The golems seem fairly similar to the zombies we first saw. Tough and strong, but not an enormous threat.

If anything, they remind me of a gear check from MMO's. If you have the speed and maneuverability or stealth to evade the golems or the ability to make a single powerful attack that can overcome them defenses you're totally fine. If you don't, you're going to get squashed as a result of their impressive defenses.

As far as being outclassed in a straight up fight: this has pretty much been par for the course even since the legion zombie boss mob was introduced. Bosses, at least so far, appear to be giant buckets of HP, but not necessarily vastly more dangerous than you might expect to encounter at a particular level.

[lord_khaine]

Well.. i am kinda considering the golems and their riders to be a single entity for all sense and purpose, and thats the encounter thats outclassing him in a way that the other bosses have not even been close to doing.

After all, his regular attacks are brushed off, it can crush him with a single hit in both melee and range, and he is unable to run or hide.

That is almost screaming unbalanced encounter.

[Aquillion]

Well.. i am kinda considering the golems and their riders to be a single entity for all sense and purpose, and thats the encounter thats outclassing him in a way that the other bosses have not even been close to doing.

IIRC his ability did, too (it listed the free spellcasting as part of the golem's abilities, probably because the spellcasters are 'integrated' with it.)

However, I suspect that there are drawbacks to binding yourself to the golem, as we'll see.

[Dragoa]

IIRC his ability did, too (it listed the free spellcasting as part of the golem's abilities, probably because the spellcasters are 'integrated' with it.)

However, I suspect that there are drawbacks to binding yourself to the golem, as we'll see.

They explained the drawbacks I think a few chapters ago when they were first introduced. Main one is just that you are basically trapped with the golem, and are unable to move around, so when the golem goes down your going with it(or alternatively if they decide to attack you directly your sorta stuck). I can't quite remember if they needed to focus to control it, but I think they do which is also a downside since they're basically unprotected, but they do get a better golem out of it.

It's basically the best option in the current situation where they know they're going to be facing someone ostensibly weaker then the golem they create, so they should be relatively safe because they've negated outside interference of someone strong enough to take advantage of the inherit weaknesses to what they've done.

[Math_Mage]

...Not clear on how he managed the breathing room to charge up that massive spiral energy bolt, but I'll roll with it.

[Forrestfire]

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Looks like it's going with the "gamer's mind makes him treat his enemies as targets, not people" type of thing. I wonder if there will be followup with that.

[Dragoa]

...Not clear on how he managed the breathing room to charge up that massive spiral energy bolt, but I'll roll with it.

I'm thinking since he can't move maybe he stole the golem idea and started charging underground and had Noum move him into the position once he had charged?

Also is he exempt from the mana regeneration blocking effect that was mentioned earlier? Since he seems to be burning a ton of mana and hasn't really noticed/cared that it isn't coming back.

[Dragoa]

New Chapter!

Ah the dangers of trying to loot in combat. Looks like he is using gnome as a defensive mechanism by burrowing in case he needs to dodge while charging. Also seems a bit weird he can run off for 20 minutes to recharge though. But man that's a beefy golem though.

[Math_Mage]

Ah, unconsciousness, the magical substitute for death since before Nintendo ever released its first Pokemon game.

Incidentally, have damage and HP been numbered previously?

[Dragoa]

Ah, unconsciousness, the magical substitute for death since before Nintendo ever released its first Pokemon game.

Incidentally, have damage and HP been numbered previously?

Ya, Jee Han's MP gets enumerated a bunch during the time he was figuring out all of the MP regeneration stuff, and his HP/Damage was shown during the gun defense training bit.

[Fjolnir]

Spoiler

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He can hide because it's like D&D, you put too much dirt in between the sense and the subject they can no longer detect you. He's fast enough to move from one place to the next via holes to make them think he has a short range teleportation technique and the witch of slaughter is distracting that one. 20 minutes might seem a bit high but he also is full recharging...

[Olinser]

...Not clear on how he managed the breathing room to charge up that massive spiral energy bolt, but I'll roll with it.

He slipped their detection for just a few seconds by hiding underground, he was already shown in at least one hole with Noum hiding from them previously.

If I recall, isn't a MAX charged Spiral Energy Bolt only 10 seconds? They lost detection on him, giving him time, and then he was a decent distance from the golem when they finally noticed him. He only needs a few seconds to get pretty high power, more than enough to 1 shot them.

EDIT: Given the size of the max charge spiral energy bolt he uses in the next chapter, yeah, he only hit the smaller golem with a few second charged one.

[Olinser]

Ya, Jee Han's MP gets enumerated a bunch during the time he was figuring out all of the MP regeneration stuff, and his HP/Damage was shown during the gun defense training bit.

More than that. A number of times Jee-Han has received damage - he lost a small amount every time the teacher whacked him (when he gained the damage reduction skill), he lost a relatively large amount of HP when Sae-Young punched him thinking he was an imposter (then a small amount when she throat punched him later), and he lost HP when a zombie bit him. Pretty much every time he's taken damage his HP was shown.

[tyckspoon]

Also is he exempt from the mana regeneration blocking effect that was mentioned earlier? Since he seems to be burning a ton of mana and hasn't really noticed/cared that it isn't coming back.

My current theory: He's just regenerating Ki instead, and his power simply converts the various energy sources he has access to into the catchall 'MP'. The barrier is working - he's not drawing in mana and regenerating that portion based on his spellcasting abilities - but it wasn't designed to account for somebody with a multiple power-source talent set. He's not getting enough regeneration to do his cheatery 'all sustains on and still have a net positive supply to fight actively' thing, but he can retreat and Ki-meditate to get his MP back and then throw it back into magic effects, because it's all just MP to him.


Not related to current fight: I wonder if Jee Han/the author will remember the Chun Bu Moon Divine Technique at any time? He's had enough Int to learn it for a while now and plenty of down time.. or maybe the Chun Bu elder has decreed that he has to learn it the hard way now that he's actually training as a student with them.

[Math_Mage]

Not related to current fight: I wonder if Jee Han/the author will remember the Chun Bu Moon Divine Technique at any time? He's had enough Int to learn it for a while now and plenty of down time.. or maybe the Chun Bu elder has decreed that he has to learn it the hard way now that he's actually training as a student with them.

Do you think this author of all people would leave a scene like that offscreen?

[tyckspoon]

Do you think this author of all people would leave a scene like that offscreen?

Oh, I didn't mean to imply that he'd picked it up off-screen. I just thought it was odd that he's been capable of learning it (or at least absorbing the skill book) for so long and *hasn't* learned it. I expect when the author does decide to let Jee Han get it, it'll probably get most of a chapter to itself... or Jee Han will ask about it and the Chun Bu Moon elder will tell him 'No, you're a Chun Bu disciple now. You don't get that the easy way.'