The Gamer

[Olinser]

I think it's amusing we've spent this long discussing a character who has, so far, only appeared in one panel. While it'll be a shame if the only black character in the entire series is a stereotypical gang-leader or something, we haven't really seen much of him yet, so we should probably wait to see what happens with him next chapter -- he's being introduced as a villain now, but then again, so was the Black Summoner.

("Wait, if he's called the Black Summoner, why is he white?" "Oh my God, Aquillion, you can't just ask people why they're white!")

I've never read Black Summoner as particularly villainous, and I've been reading the comic since day one.

He's always struck me as less 'evil' or 'villainous' and more, 'screw your little clans and rules, I'm going to do whatever I want and you can't stop me'. His initial appearance and attack on Red Hair seemed much more like idle curiosity than any kind of malice, and while he put Sun-Il in the hospital, Sun-Il did initiate the confrontation and Black Summoner quite obviously could have killed him with little trouble.

[Anteros]

I've never read Black Summoner as particularly villainous, and I've been reading the comic since day one.

He's always struck me as less 'evil' or 'villainous' and more, 'screw your little clans and rules, I'm going to do whatever I want and you can't stop me'. His initial appearance and attack on Red Hair seemed much more like idle curiosity than any kind of malice, and while he put Sun-Il in the hospital, Sun-Il did initiate the confrontation and Black Summoner quite obviously could have killed him with little trouble.

He attacked her and the protagonist without provocation. He could have easily killed someone. I don't know if he's a "villain" from a storytelling standpoint, but he's certainly not a good person.

[Olinser]

He attacked her and the protagonist without provocation. He could have easily killed someone. I don't know if he's a "villain" from a storytelling standpoint, but he's certainly not a good person.

Yes, but what did he really do? Given their relative power levels (and how badly he tore up both Sun-Il and his brothers not long after) he could easily have killed Red Hair with little effort. Instead he summoned up a couple mid-level creatures that she beat rather easily, and then wandered off.

Sure he threatened Jee-Han when he appeared, but remember, normal people were supposed to be locked out of the barrier they were inside, it's not like he intentionally dragged him in. Also, frankly doesn't really strike me as the kind of guy that actually would have followed through on the threat, especially since he didn't even need him there to beat her handily.

Like I said, it struck me much more as Black Summoner was just kind of wandering around and was curious as to how powerful Red Hair was. Once he had a good read on her power, he got bored and wandered off again. Dickish, definitely, but not particularly malicious.

[Aquillion]

I've never read Black Summoner as particularly villainous, and I've been reading the comic since day one.

He's always struck me as less 'evil' or 'villainous' and more, 'screw your little clans and rules, I'm going to do whatever I want and you can't stop me'. His initial appearance and attack on Red Hair seemed much more like idle curiosity than any kind of malice, and while he put Sun-Il in the hospital, Sun-Il did initiate the confrontation and Black Summoner quite obviously could have killed him with little trouble.

The first time we saw him, he was attacking Shi-Yun without provocation, purely to test her skills, and implicitly seems to warn that he might kill her if she's not good enough.

(In retrospect, the only way I can read that scene that makes any sense with his later character development is that he was making sure that everyone active in the area was capable of surviving the zombie-fields he creates; he didn't actually intend to kill her. And his villainous talk was probably because he depends on people being terrified of him to protect his daughter. But if you just saw that initial fight, I don't see how you could avoid concluding that he's a villain.)

[sleepy hedgehog]

I never saw the Black Summoner as a villain either.
I felt he was trying to determine how strong Shi-Yun was.
You can't just say "I'd like to see how strong you can fight, so... give it your all. OK?".

Also when Jee-Han showed up (showing that he was not normal), he summoned a monster that could be avoided by walking away briskly.

[Flickerdart]

Since when is "I want to see how well you fight so I'm going to summon something that wants you dead" okay to do?

[Olinser]

Since when is "I want to see how well you fight so I'm going to summon something that wants you dead" okay to do?

He summoned up a couple mid-level creatures that she handled without even getting hurt. He very obviously could have summoned up something actually capable of killing her, but didn't.

Again, its a pretty dickish move, but not particularly malicious or villainous.

[Flickerdart]

I'm pretty sure that "I could have attacked her harder, your honour" wouldn't fly in court. Calling assault "not particularly malicious" is just wrong.

[Forum Explorer]

I'm pretty sure that "I could have attacked her harder, your honour" wouldn't fly in court. Calling assault "not particularly malicious" is just wrong.

For normal people sure. Abyss folk aren't normal, and most have been implied to kill people.

[Ibrinar]

Since when is "I want to see how well you fight so I'm going to summon something that wants you dead" okay to do?

It matters little whether it's an okay thing to do for the question whether he is a villain on a meta level. People can be violent, capricious or criminals in stories what matters in the end are their relations to the protagonists and whether they have some evil plans or something.
If for instance someone is part of the Mafia and does some bad **** but in the story their role is helping the MC because they owe them a debt then their function in the story is not being a villain.
And there are many narrative were attacking the good guys doesn't give someone villain status. Fight them to test whether they are worthy for something, fight them to forcefully train them, fight them because of a misunderstanding. Hell even "fight them because you were bored and they looked skilled" has a decent chance of not indicating villain status.
Fighting her to test her strength like the BS probably did has a good chance to not indicate a villain role a huge part is why he would want to see her strength. If for instance he thought "this area will get dangerous during my operation, if she can't hold her own I should encourage her to go, so let's test her"=> not a villain indicator. He could also have tested her to see if she would be useful for a plan he had, then it depends on the plan. Many possibilities. Point is, no it's not okay but so what? You can be amoral or an ******* without being a (minor or major) villain.

[Fjolnir]

If I remember correctly, he attacks Shi-Yun because her clan refused to stop butting into his plans and he injured or killed several of them before that. He goes to the Chunbumoon clan right after that and explains his intentions to the elder who agrees to back off fairly soon after that...

[lord_khaine]

I'm pretty sure that "I could have attacked her harder, your honour" wouldn't fly in court. Calling assault "not particularly malicious" is just wrong.

But at the same time, calling it assult would also not fly really well in court when said attack did not leave her with a single hair out of place.

I think the closest real world analogy would be showing up and start throwing snowballs at someone to test their reflexes and agility.

[Anteros]

I don't know where you live, but in the US you can be charged with assault for just threatening someone. Perhaps it wasn't attempted murder, but it was certainly assault and battery at the minimum.

You're also forgetting that he attacked Jee Han who could have easily died as far as he knew.

It matters little whether it's an okay thing to do for the question whether he is a villain on a meta level. People can be violent, capricious or criminals in stories what matters in the end are their relations to the protagonists and whether they have some evil plans or something.
If for instance someone is part of the Mafia and does some bad **** but in the story their role is helping the MC because they owe them a debt then their function in the story is not being a villain.
And there are many narrative were attacking the good guys doesn't give someone villain status. Fight them to test whether they are worthy for something, fight them to forcefully train them, fight them because of a misunderstanding. Hell even "fight them because you were bored and they looked skilled" has a decent chance of not indicating villain status.
Fighting her to test her strength like the BS probably did has a good chance to not indicate a villain role a huge part is why he would want to see her strength. If for instance he thought "this area will get dangerous during my operation, if she can't hold her own I should encourage her to go, so let's test her"=> not a villain indicator. He could also have tested her to see if she would be useful for a plan he had, then it depends on the plan. Many possibilities. Point is, no it's not okay but so what? You can be amoral or an ******* without being a (minor or major) villain.

The word you're looking for here is "antagonist". You can be a villain and still be a protagonist.

[Olinser]

I don't know where you live, but in the US you can be charged with assault for just threatening someone. Perhaps it wasn't attempted murder, but it was certainly assault and battery at the minimum.

You're also forgetting that he attacked Jee Han who could have easily died as far as he knew.




The word you're looking for here is "antagonist". You can be a villain and still be a protagonist.

He didn't attack Jee-Han. The slime grabbed him and sat there with him. It didn't make any attempt to harm him until Jee-Han managed to break free - something that would have been impossible for a normal person. Even then it's debatable whether the slime was actually trying to attack him or just trying to re-grab him as per its initial orders.

[Anteros]

He didn't attack Jee-Han. The slime grabbed him and sat there with him. It didn't make any attempt to harm him until Jee-Han managed to break free - something that would have been impossible for a normal person. Even then it's debatable whether the slime was actually trying to attack him or just trying to re-grab him as per its initial orders.

He explicitly tells the redhead that the slime will kill Jee-Han unless she rescues him. Jee-Han being able to save himself was never part of his plan.

[lord_khaine]

I don't know where you live, but in the US you can be charged with assault for just threatening someone. Perhaps it wasn't attempted murder, but it was certainly assault and battery at the minimum.

Well thankfully it seems BS is living in the Abyss, so i doubt he has anything to fear from US law, meaning its not relevant to this subject.

You're also forgetting that he attacked Jee Han who could have easily died as far as he knew.

And no im not, im just looking less at what BS said, and more at what he did. And what he did was dangle Jee Han from the air, something that might be a little unpleasant, and was certainly a jerkish move.
But it was not something that threatend his health in any way unless he had possed some obscure heart condition or a fear of heights.

He didn't attack Jee-Han. The slime grabbed him and sat there with him. It didn't make any attempt to harm him until Jee-Han managed to break free - something that would have been impossible for a normal person. Even then it's debatable whether the slime was actually trying to attack him or just trying to re-grab him as per its initial orders.

And the way Jee-Han more or less ignored his fall also hinted at him having more than regular human toughness, enough so that BS might not have thought he were in risk of dying to it. Certainly not in the time it would have taken Shi-Yun to come to his resque.

[Olinser]

He explicitly tells the redhead that the slime will kill Jee-Han unless she rescues him. Jee-Han being able to save himself was never part of his plan.

Then why did he allow him to rescue himself? Just like with Red Hair, Black Summoner was more than capable of summoning up something bigger and more dangerous with little effort. But at that point he didn't care anymore, because he'd already evaluated her strength. So he wandered off.

[Anteros]

Well thankfully it seems BS is living in the Abyss, so i doubt he has anything to fear from US law, meaning its not relevant to this subject.

I'm not the one who brought up the court system. I was responding to you. Regardless, the reasons this law is worded this way is still grounded in common sense. If you threaten, kidnap, and assault someone, it's evil regardless of whether or not it's against the law.

And no im not, im just looking less at what BS said, and more at what he did. And what he did was dangle Jee Han from the air, something that might be a little unpleasant, and was certainly a jerkish move.
But it was not something that threatend his health in any way unless he had possed some obscure heart condition or a fear of heights.



And the way Jee-Han more or less ignored his fall also hinted at him having more than regular human toughness, enough so that BS might not have thought he were in risk of dying to it. Certainly not in the time it would have taken Shi-Yun to come to his resque.

He also had no reason to expect Jee-Han could free himself in the first place, nor that he would survive a fall that would kill most people.

Then why did he allow him to rescue himself? Just like with Red Hair, Black Summoner was more than capable of summoning up something bigger and more dangerous with little effort. But at that point he didn't care anymore, because he'd already evaluated her strength. So he wandered off.

"Sure, I kidnapped them, and assaulted them with deadly force for no other reason than my own curiosity of whether they would survive...but I didn't try as hard as I possibly could to kill them!"

Good luck with that defense.


I'm not sure why some of you seem to think that kidnapping, assault, and battery is acceptable if you don't intend to kill your victim.

[Olinser]

I'm not the one who brought up the court system. I was responding to you. Regardless, the reasons this law is worded this way is still grounded in common sense. If you threaten, kidnap, and assault someone, it's evil regardless of whether or not it's against the law.



He also had no reason to expect Jee-Han could free himself in the first place, nor that he would survive a fall that would kill most people.



"Sure, I kidnapped them, and assaulted them with deadly force for no other reason than my own curiosity of whether they would survive...but I didn't try as hard as I possibly could to kill them!"

Good luck with that defense.


I'm not sure why some of you seem to think that kidnapping, assault, and battery is acceptable if you don't intend to kill your victim.

You are attacking a straw man argument that NOBODY has made.

Nobody has said that the black summoner's actions were 'good' or 'acceptable'.

We're saying that he's been pretty dickish, but at no point in the story has he been presented as particularly villainous.

[Anteros]

You're explicitly making the argument that kidnapping, assault, and attempted murder isn't particularly villainous. I disagree.

I'll agree that he isn't an antagonist in the story itself.

[Aquillion]

He summoned up a couple mid-level creatures that she handled without even getting hurt. He very obviously could have summoned up something actually capable of killing her, but didn't.

Again, its a pretty dickish move, but not particularly malicious or villainous.

Sure, but what I mean is, we didn't know that at the time. At least when I read the second chapter, it looked like this guy was just threatening to kill a random girl and the main character, and refusing to explain why when asked.

(Remember, 'villain' doesn't have to mean 'complete puppy-eating horrific monster.' He doesn't come off as unthinkably monstrous in that chapter, no, but he definitely comes off as callous about human life. We don't see more about him until later. But what we do see is him apparently threatening the life of someone he himself says he believes to be a complete innocent, purely to motivate someone else to fight him seriously.)

[Felyndiira]

If I remember correctly, he attacks Shi-Yun because her clan refused to stop butting into his plans and he injured or killed several of them before that. He goes to the Chunbumoon clan right after that and explains his intentions to the elder who agrees to back off fairly soon after that...

When he attacked Shi-Yun, he seems more to be testing her power rather than as an actual threat. From what we know so far, I speculate that it's because he needs someone from her clan to perform the soul healing technique on his daughter (hence why he's collecting soul stones, which that technique coincidentally uses), so he's testing Shi-Yun to see if her mastery of her clan's techniques is adequate for this.

[Dragoa]

When he attacked Shi-Yun, he seems more to be testing her power rather than as an actual threat. From what we know so far, I speculate that it's because he needs someone from her clan to perform the soul healing technique on his daughter (hence why he's collecting soul stones, which that technique coincidentally uses), so he's testing Shi-Yun to see if her mastery of her clan's techniques is adequate for this.

This seems a bit out of character to me for the Summoner to go to another clan to ask for help completing his main goal. He seems like he has a plan, and no matter what happens he won't let anyone or anything stand in the way that. While he is willing to go with non-violent solutions if able, he's not willing to back down from his goal regardless of what it means he has to do. He seemed to be willing to fight the entire chunbu-moon and the YuHon(Sorry, I am seriously terrible with names to begin with, and these foreign names are completely messing with me) if they wouldn't co-operate with whatever he had planned, so it seems like relying on one of those factions to help him in the end seems counter to this approach. Also after he seriously wounded a bunch of them, I can't seem them just going 'Aww your daughter is hurt? It's ok that you crippled most of our members, we will heal her for you anyway'.

[Flickerdart]

Also after he seriously wounded a bunch of them, I can't seem them just going 'Aww your daughter is hurt? It's ok that you crippled most of our members, we will heal her for you anyway'.

This is probably why he's interested in Jee Han, who can master any healing technique in the world but belongs to no clan.

[Dragoa]

This is probably why he's interested in Jee Han, who can master any healing technique in the world but belongs to no clan.

He's probably protecting him because he was helping his daughter, and his daughter seems to have made a friend and his daughter is his number one priority. However, I can't see Black Summoner's final plan relying on anyone but himself, especially considering he started this grand plan before knowing of Jee-Han or his ability, and it hasn't seemed to change since the Black Summoner discovered Jee-Han's ability, nor has he really offered Jee-Han anything in the form of 'help' to grow stronger faster(beyond protecting his daughter's friend).

[Olinser]

This seems a bit out of character to me for the Summoner to go to another clan to ask for help completing his main goal. He seems like he has a plan, and no matter what happens he won't let anyone or anything stand in the way that. While he is willing to go with non-violent solutions if able, he's not willing to back down from his goal regardless of what it means he has to do. He seemed to be willing to fight the entire chunbu-moon and the YuHon(Sorry, I am seriously terrible with names to begin with, and these foreign names are completely messing with me) if they wouldn't co-operate with whatever he had planned, so it seems like relying on one of those factions to help him in the end seems counter to this approach. Also after he seriously wounded a bunch of them, I can't seem them just going 'Aww your daughter is hurt? It's ok that you crippled most of our members, we will heal her for you anyway'.

They attacked him first, even after he'd apparently gotten permission from the Irregular Magician to operate in the area. To be blunt, it was pretty obvious he could have killed all 3 of them with little effort. Sending them home with non-permanent injuries is actually a mark in his favor from that fight.

[Flickerdart]

He's probably protecting him because he was helping his daughter, and his daughter seems to have made a friend and his daughter is his number one priority. However, I can't see Black Summoner's final plan relying on anyone but himself, especially considering he started this grand plan before knowing of Jee-Han or his ability, and it hasn't seemed to change since the Black Summoner discovered Jee-Han's ability, nor has he really offered Jee-Han anything in the form of 'help' to grow stronger faster(beyond protecting his daughter's friend).

I'm sure he has an original plan that relies only on himself, but Jee Han is so useful that Black Summoner must have made some kind of adjustments to work Jee Han's power into it, and relegated his original plan to a plan B (or C or D or whatever, since he would also have had plans to deal with the Chubumoon and even the Irregular Magician if they had refused to leave him alone).

[Thrawn183]

He's probably protecting him because he was helping his daughter, and his daughter seems to have made a friend and his daughter is his number one priority. However, I can't see Black Summoner's final plan relying on anyone but himself, especially considering he started this grand plan before knowing of Jee-Han or his ability, and it hasn't seemed to change since the Black Summoner discovered Jee-Han's ability, nor has he really offered Jee-Han anything in the form of 'help' to grow stronger faster(beyond protecting his daughter's friend).

Since when is the Black Summoner protecting Jee-Han?

[lord_khaine]

We are not certain what he is actually doing.

He seems to have hired with WoS to do something, but we dont know if she is protecting Jee-Han or not.

[Fjolnir]

He hired the WoS to protect his daughter and her allies, which Jee Han is one of...