afroakuma's Planar Questions Thread IV

[afroakuma]

What would happen if the spawning stone was destroyed? Would Limbo just start spitting Slaad's out anyway?

It already does, a fact they conceal. More true slaad would appear until it was remade.

The Slaad recreate it?

The Slaad Lords would eventually do so, yes.

Can it be destroyed?

Theoretically, yes. Couldn't tell you how.

Really? Why?

It's the nature of him in that role. Resolving his internal chaos through unity would pretty much be like Microsoft endorsing the Wii U. Requires a surrender.

Now, the problem with your question is that you asked about uniting his personalities.

Does Demogorgon know this? If so, why does he think not having to fight himself is worth losing the powers the title bestows upon him?

Which is different from this. Killing one would be perfectly fine. Which is what the two of them want to do. Neither one wants to unite with the other; they want to be individual.

Do you have any conjecture as to why this is the case?

Only evil wants to keep its boot on things?

Remember, the archons have the Hebdomad, each of whom protects one layer, but they don't have that connection and mastery of the layer that the devils and demons do because they wouldn't want it. Neither would the eladrins or the guardinals. The slaad think control is silly, and Primus would never deign to exert change over perfection, even to correct it when a defect appears (that's what workers are for). The yugoloths, meanwhile, think on a grander scale, but their plans haven't come to fruition yet.

Right but from what I've read, petitioners don't really do much except live once they get to the domain of their diety/Demon Prince/etc.

Then you haven't read enough, not to mention you've missed past questions on the same topic. Petitioners grow to become more like the being they worshiped in life, eventually merging with that entity.

Why is it that a non‐unique mortal can gain the title of Prince of Demons but a non‐unique demon can't?

A mortal might be a non-unique mortal, but it's a hell of a unique demon.

Do the signs of the Elder Evils work if they're not on the Prime?

Given that they're signs that the Elder Evil's influence is on the Prime, by definition the answer is no. That does not preclude them having some alternate effect elsewhere, of course.

What's the in‐universe reason for why some beings have Elder Evil traits and some don't? Like, why does Sertrous get a Sign when Turglas doesn't?

Okay first of all it's Turaglas, learn to spell.

Second of all, those ones have Signs because they're the ones being represented as Elder Evils. If Turaglas or Zuggtmoy or Bayemon or Siragle or Malcanthet or Orcus or whoever else was doing the same, they'd have an associated Sign.

While becoming a god gives a being a lot of cool personal toys (portfolio sense, salient divine abilities), doees it impact that beings worshippers that much?

Oh yes. Protections associated with the divine, the impact of such salient divine abilities (even for demigods, not a small thing), a destination in the afterlife with the security of a divine realm, the fact that their patron can't be blocked off or summoned away or otherwise interfered with...

Worshiping a god is a lot more secure than worshiping something that can't directly help you.

While digging around, I came across someone say this

"For reference, Yugoloths were originally called Daemons, but got a name-change at the same time that Demons and Devils did. For some reason, though, they're the only one of the three that didn't officially get their names changed back when 3e rolled around."

do you know what they are referring to? Do they mean tanar'ri and baatezu?

They do, yes. The quote's referring to the fact that yugoloths in 3.X are never referred to as daemons. Mainly it's because who cares.

[123456789blaaa]

Turglas, Turaglas...meh. He was never one of my favorite Demon Princes. Not worth the effort to look up the correct spelling. You know who I mean.

Which is different from this. Killing one would be perfectly fine. Which is what the two of them want to do. Neither one wants to unite with the other; they want to be individual.

Obvious follow‐up: If Demogorgon managed to kill one of his two personalities, how would this effect things for him and everyone else?

Can a Demon Prince that becomes a god (or a vestige or whatever), still have Thrall classes?

If Ahazu's plan to become a god succeeded, what level of god would he emerge as (demigod, lesser, etc)? Would he make his divine realm in the Wells of Darkness?

Is Shattered Night the realm from which all vestiges live in? If not, than why can beings imprisoned there be interacted with by using Pact Magic?

Did the Prince of Demons title give Obox‐ob a second personality (I'm going by Savage Tide here which states that the title does that to anyone that has it) back when he had it? In afro‐canon, does the title still implant a second personality or did you get rid of that? I suppose the title doing that fits with the nature of the Abyss but it does take away some of Demogorgons uniqueness...

Can a Demon Prince/Archduke forge a connection to multiple layers? I know Graz'zt can but wasn't that an exception (I remember it having something to do with his palace...)?

People can believe in practically anything and still get divine power right (it's Sertrous's whole shtick after all)? If this is so, than why do worshippers of a god get their powers cut off if their god is killed or imprisoned or whatever (Kyuss could only grant spells of up to 4rth level for a long time for example)? Wouldn't they keep getting power from their belief?

[Eldan]

Alternate hypothetical, since I know you love them: do you see a way for Demogorgon to instead split into two independent bodies? If so, what would happen? Would their essence each be too weak to rule the Abyss? (Probably?)

[afroakuma]

Obvious follow‐up: If Demogorgon managed to kill one of his two personalities, how would this effect things for him and everyone else?

Obvious follow-up: stab.

I hate follow-up questions so much.

The answer should be in Savage Tide. Go. Read. Bother me no more. I'd answer if I had it on hand right now, but I don't.

Can a Demon Prince that becomes a god (or a vestige or whatever), still have Thrall classes?

I don't see why not.

If Ahazu's plan to become a god succeeded, what level of god would he emerge as (demigod, lesser, etc)?

Who knows?

Would he make his divine realm in the Wells of Darkness?

Up to him. Personally, I'd be all too eager to be well shot of that place, but that's me. He can't make it off-layer, though, so it's of little benefit for him to stay.

Is Shattered Night the realm from which all vestiges live in?

No.

If not, than why can beings imprisoned there be interacted with by using Pact Magic?

They're outside enough that some of them can be reached in the silence. Pact magic is a very quiet thing, metaphorically speaking, and it can't do a thing through the noise of the regular cosmology. Shattered Night is removed enough that it can be touched by binders.

Did the Prince of Demons title give Obox‐ob a second personality (I'm going by Savage Tide here which states that the title does that to anyone that has it) back when he had it?

No. Savage Tide flat-out says that that effect does not apply to other demon lords. It's not an inherent quality of the title. It's an inherent quality of Demogorgon's title.

Can a Demon Prince/Archduke forge a connection to multiple layers? I know Graz'zt can but wasn't that an exception (I remember it having something to do with his palace...)?

An archduke might be able to in theory, but it's never been done, so it's impossible to state one way or the other. Demon princes do have the power to command and control multiple Abyssal layers.

People can believe in practically anything and still get divine power right (it's Sertrous's whole shtick after all)? If this is so, than why do worshippers of a god get their powers cut off if their god is killed or imprisoned or whatever (Kyuss could only grant spells of up to 4rth level for a long time for example)?

What do you think?

[123456789blaaa]

<snip>
Up to him. Personally, I'd be all too eager to be well shot of that place, but that's me. He can't make it off-layer, though, so it's of little benefit for him to stay.
<snip>

I'm having trouble understanding your second sentence here (sorry). Does "off-layer" refer to the layer called the Wells of Darkness or all the layers of the Abyss? If it's the former than it would be very beneficial to stay. If it's the latter than you saying "He can't make it off-layer" doesn't seem to have relevance to the question of him staying on the layer called the Wells of Darkness.

No. Savage Tide flat-out says that that effect does not apply to other demon lords. It's not an inherent quality of the title. It's an inherent quality of Demogorgon's title.
<snip>

The effect does apply to beings that weren't already demon lords though. Not sure what's up with that....

What do you think?

I don't know. Death of their god could shake their faith enough that they wouldn't be able to draw power from their own belief I suppose (if they knew about the death). If the god was just weak and imprisoned though (like Kyuss), I don't see why they wouldn't stop drawing from him and start drawing from themselves(consciously or otherwise).

Unless he told them he was too weak to grant spells I suppose...but why would he do that?

EDIT: And I suppose the answer here is that they can't draw upon their own personal power while worshipping a god. The connection between them and their god that they use to draw power also stops them from creating a connection to themselves.

[Yora]

I'm having trouble understanding your second sentence here (sorry). Does "off-layer" refer to the layer called the Wells of Darkness or all the layers of the Abyss?

It means being unable to leave the current layer of the plane.

[123456789blaaa]

It means being unable to leave the current layer of the plane.

What do you mean by "current" layer?

[Mr Adventurer]

Actual Plays are online records made of a game you've played. :) Session writeups, that kind of thing.

[Clistenes]

I know this question is like asking which is colder, hellfire or the core of the sun, but I thought i'd ask anyways.


What is the most (at least potentially) benign type of fiend?

If the Guardian Daemons count as fiends, I would say that they are the most benign kind. They are sometimes almost neutral.

[RúsëaMenci]

Actual Plays are online records made of a game you've played. :) Session writeups, that kind of thing.

He started some epic write-ups of his Ivalicegame, but never finished them.

I’m not bitter or anything.

[afroakuma]

I'm having trouble understanding your second sentence here (sorry). Does "off-layer" refer to the layer called the Wells of Darkness or all the layers of the Abyss? If it's the former than it would be very beneficial to stay. If it's the latter than you saying "He can't make it off-layer" doesn't seem to have relevance to the question of him staying on the layer called the Wells of Darkness.

Yeah you don't understand, so I'm going to have to spell it out.

Ahazu resides off-layer (outside of the plane of existence via Shattered Night) as a protective measure. He could no longer do that as a deity. He could set up shop on the layer proper, but there's no point in doing that since he can't really take advantage of its properties as he once had and he'd be surrounded by enemies who might use his nearby divine presence to plot their own schemes to escape. So he should probably establish his divine realm somewhere else.

The effect does apply to beings that weren't already demon lords though. Not sure what's up with that....

It's the mantle of a demon lord. To use a really stretched analogy, take a song by a popular musician. You sing it at a karaoke bar or school concert or wherever else, it's you performing their song. Another popular musician performs it, and suddenly it's their rendition of that song. It's no longer "Prince of Demons" by Aamuel & Hethradiah, it's "Prince of Demons" by Tom Jones or "Prince of Demons" by Orcus or whatever else.

I don't see why they wouldn't stop drawing from him and start drawing from themselves(consciously or otherwise).

1) Like most of that book, Sertrous's section is serious high-octane crap. The whole heretic angle is almost completely neglected beyond serving as an excuse to give him a celestial underling.

2) Drawing power from faith in other things is not easy. Gods are lightning rods of faith, and they're always looking for more. Most worlds where clerics can draw power from ideals have no native pantheon or deities of note. Divine power is never drawn from the self (unless you're a god); it is manifested from faith. When a god dies, what his followers believe in is no longer there. They cannot receive power from a vacuum, and that is where their faith now lies, for it gets sucked into the god's corpse on the Astral Plane.

3) Drawing power from faith in yourself is nearly impossible. It goes beyond mere self-confidence, because you actually have to believe that you are divine, that you have divine power, and that you are a source of divine power to be brought forth. You have to not only feel you embody something but actually do that enough to convince yourself and others, or you can't make it work. And of course, if any real gods are around, they can and will interfere.

Actual Plays are online records made of a game you've played. :) Session writeups, that kind of thing.

Ah.

No.

If the Guardian Daemons count as fiends, I would say that they are the most benign kind. They are sometimes almost neutral.

They don't. They're constructs of a sort, concocted by the yugoloths as substitutes when mortals come a-summoning.

He started some epic write-ups of his Ivalicegame, but never finished them.

On the bright side, Ivalicegame was awesome.

[Alleran]

These questions may stray into FR-specific planar information:

1) Errtu the balor is said occasionally to rule over an Abyssal layer. Can you clarify this? Is he a particularly powerful and/or unique balor on the verge of demon lord, or is he just a ruler of a significant portion of an unclaimed layer?

2) If a balor (or any demon, really) is repeatedly brought to the Material Plane and is also repeatedly banished by mortals (or the same mortal), will there be a corresponding loss of status in the Abyss? Since tanar'ri are AFAIK immortal, is banishment such a big deal when they have thousands of years to plot revenge against the individual who banished them and/or their descendants?

[Brookshw]

I've been trying to find more information regarding the Hebdomad beyond what's outlined in the BoED but have been coming up a bit short. Any chance you can point me in a direction? Anything particular note-able that they've done? Other than sitting on Mt. Celestial there seems to be a bit of a shortage as far as canon actions they've taken that I've been able to find.

[afroakuma]

These questions may stray into FR-specific planar information:

1) Errtu the balor is said occasionally to rule over an Abyssal layer. Can you clarify this? Is he a particularly powerful and/or unique balor on the verge of demon lord, or is he just a ruler of a significant portion of an unclaimed layer?

You can be a demon lord without being unique, but no, Errtu does not rule a whole layer.

2) If a balor (or any demon, really) is repeatedly brought to the Material Plane and is also repeatedly banished by mortals (or the same mortal), will there be a corresponding loss of status in the Abyss?

"Social" status? Definitely. Errtu's a joke now.

Since tanar'ri are AFAIK immortal, is banishment such a big deal when they have thousands of years to plot revenge against the individual who banished them and/or their descendants?

Banishment's still humiliating and still takes away from time that you could have spent preying on the Prime. Hundred years also usually means that direct revenge is out, and given how impatient most tanar'ri are, that stings.

I've been trying to find more information regarding the Hebdomad beyond what's outlined in the BoED

Good luck.

Any chance you can point me in a direction?

Ehh, you could try their Canonfire pages... but even those are pretty bare-bones.

Anything particular note-able that they've done?

No.

Other than sitting on Mt. Celestial there seems to be a bit of a shortage as far as canon actions they've taken that I've been able to find.

Celestial paragons are rarely mentioned or involved in material since they're not as broadly useful as archfiends.

[Coidzor]

They don't. They're constructs of a sort, concocted by the yugoloths as substitutes when mortals come a-summoning.

Are there other examples of that sort of thing going on amongst outsiders where they basically construct an outsider that isn't one of them? Is that exactly the sort of thing that the Demodands are/started out as?

[Fable Wright]

Are there other examples of that sort of thing going on amongst outsiders where they basically construct an outsider that isn't one of them? Is that exactly the sort of thing that the Demodands are/started out as?

Notably, the Retriever in the SRD seems to be one.

[afroakuma]

Are there other examples of that sort of thing going on amongst outsiders where they basically construct an outsider that isn't one of them? Is that exactly the sort of thing that the Demodands are/started out as?

Well, in a sense, many exemplars were originally "created," and demodands would fall into that lot. Guardian yuguloths, however, are completely artifice. I don't think they were translated to 3.X, so I can't say whether or not they have the outsider type. If they are constructs, then they would share the same background with retrievers and quesars. If not, then they're the only such example I can think of off the cuff.

[Sgt. Cookie]

Are the Elder Evils only able to do their thing on the material plane, or can they be "Summoned" on other planes?

[afroakuma]

Are the Elder Evils only able to do their thing on the material plane, or can they be "Summoned" on other planes?

Depends which one. Pandorym would definitely be a terrible thing on any plane, while the Hulks of Zoretha would be a joke off-Prime. In general, what's described in the book is only for the Prime, though.

[Rion]

Do you know the reason for the Baatezu's rather unusual attitude towards the Sign of One?

[123456789blaaa]

Yeah you don't understand, so I'm going to have to spell it out.

Ahazu resides off-layer (outside of the plane of existence via Shattered Night) as a protective measure. He could no longer do that as a deity. He could set up shop on the layer proper, but there's no point in doing that since he can't really take advantage of its properties as he once had and he'd be surrounded by enemies who might use his nearby divine presence to plot their own schemes to escape. So he should probably establish his divine realm somewhere else.
<snip>

I assumed that Ahazu has taken it upon himself to be the warden and "master" of the prison (fits with his portfolio as well) rather than just using it as a means to become a god. Why else would he offer incentives to try and get powerful beings into the prison?

I suppose he could create the realm somewhere else and continue to protect the Wells. Making his divine realm on that layer (as well as maybe becoming the Demon Prince of it?) would add a ton of security though.

On the bright side, Ivalicegame was awesome.

Details?

Are gods a source of divine power separate from a generic "having faith in something" (ideals, yourself, etc)?

With the advent of a new thread, it's time for something I know you'll enjoy- Kyuss questions!:

Age of Worms says that when Kyuss is killed, threads of his portfolio remain (that Lashonna may be able to harvest and become a goddess with). Assuming she managed to do this, would she gain his exact portfolio or would she gain the portfolio she would have gotten had she ascended via having a crapton of people believing her to be a deity (or some other "generic" way)? Like, would she become Kyuss 2.0 or a new deity of undeath?

If the PC's fail to slay Kyuss the Age of Worms begins. Now, Dragon mag 135 page 69 says that the religion of Kyuss becomes one of the most powerful religions on Oerth. The issue also talks about rains of Kyuss worms, flights of broodfiends that raze cities in hours, and corpses rising as undead within minutes. My question is: does Kyuss manage to take over all of Oerth? While most gods are prevented from interfering directly on the Prime, what about gods like Vecna and Iuz who are stuck there? Being gods themselves, would they manage to defend their borders against the worm-ridden horde? What would powerful NPC's like Mordenkainen and the Circle of Eight do?

Would having an entire, filled Prime world under their control give a demigod a boost in status on the Planes?

Does Nerull want the Age of Worms to come to pass? I know he was worshipped by Kyuss but I can't remember if he approved of Kyuss's grab at godhood...

If Kyuss believes in the superiority of undeath over life, why did his earliest creations (the sons of Kyuss) incorporate both life and death in their being? That's more life than a normal zombie! I know he ranks life that exults in the tearing down of the natural world above normal life but he still considers undeath to be above even that right (or does he consider the two to be equal?)? I remember a bit in the Age of Worms adventure path which had two corridors in the Spire of Long Shadows: one that represented his mastery over life and one that represented his mastery over death. That might be something.

[Bronk]

Are there other examples of that sort of thing going on amongst outsiders where they basically construct an outsider that isn't one of them?

I think the Inevitables would count too....

[afroakuma]

Do you know the reason for the Baatezu's rather unusual attitude towards the Sign of One?

Can't think of what that is offhand. Would you mind reminding me?

I suppose he could create the realm somewhere else and continue to protect the Wells.

"Protect" isn't a word that usually comes to mind when referring to the demonic mentality.

Making his divine realm on that layer (as well as maybe becoming the Demon Prince of it?) would add a ton of security though.

No it wouldn't. Layer = infinite. Divine realm = not infinite.

Details?

You're going to have to be more specific.

Are gods a source of divine power separate from a generic "having faith in something" (ideals, yourself, etc)?

Yes.

With the advent of a new thread, it's time for something I know you'll enjoy- Kyuss questions!:

Die slowly.

Age of Worms says that when Kyuss is killed, threads of his portfolio remain (that Lashonna may be able to harvest and become a goddess with). Assuming she managed to do this, would she gain his exact portfolio or would she gain the portfolio she would have gotten had she ascended via having a crapton of people believing her to be a deity (or some other "generic" way)? Like, would she become Kyuss 2.0 or a new deity of undeath?

Kyuss 1.5 since it's bits of his portfolio and she won't be him as an individual.

If the PC's fail to slay Kyuss the Age of Worms begins. Now, Dragon mag 135 page 69 says that the religion of Kyuss becomes one of the most powerful religions on Oerth. The issue also talks about rains of Kyuss worms, flights of broodfiends that raze cities in hours, and corpses rising as undead within minutes.

Or as I like to call it, Wednesday.

My question is: does Kyuss manage to take over all of Oerth?

The implication is that Kyuss is just the forerunner of something worse, though he may not have gotten that memo. It's pretty likely that what follows is at the very least a long and brutal war between other gods and Kyuss, not to mention the Circle of Eight.

Would having an entire, filled Prime world under their control give a demigod a boost in status on the Planes?

Might be enough to bump up a divine rank or two, but most gods don't bother keeping score like that since it's silly. Lolth has half a dozen or more firmly under her heel and never mentions any of them.

Does Nerull want the Age of Worms to come to pass?

Probably not.

I know he was worshipped by Kyuss but I can't remember if he approved of Kyuss's grab at godhood...

He did approve of Kyuss's original grab at godhood, the one that failed. Of course, that one fulfilled no prophecies, so it wasn't an issue.

If Kyuss believes in the superiority of undeath over life, why did his earliest creations (the sons of Kyuss) incorporate both life and death in their being?

The worms don't count.

[Rion]

Can't think of what that is offhand. Would you mind reminding me?

"For some reason, the Baatezu are somehow aligned with the Signers. It's unknown exactly why, but its rare to see a Baatezu attacking a member of the Sign of One... the Baatezu seem to grant them a sort of respect. The Sign of One doesn't seem to acknowledge a treaty of any sort, since almost without exception ever one of their members has a different opinion." Source.

[Yora]

Does Nerull want the Age of Worms to come to pass? I know he was worshipped by Kyuss but I can't remember if he approved of Kyuss's grab at godhood...

In the Age of Worms, Kyuss would reign supreme and there wouldn't be a place for Nerull. I don't think he'd be happy about that in any way.

You're going to have to be more specific.

"What it Ivalicegame?"

[Fable Wright]

Or as I like to call it, Wednesday.

You have a negative zip code?

[Clistenes]

In the Age of Worms, Kyuss would reign supreme and there wouldn't be a place for Nerull. I don't think he'd be happy about that in any way.

I don't think so. A new God of Undeath walking Flanaess would be bad news for mortals, but he's still a Rank 1 Demigod, and there are several more powerful deities living on Oerth (Iuz, Vecna, Fharlanghn, Mayaheine, Obad-hai...etc.). I don't think he could push away all other gods.

[afroakuma]

Source.

Don't recall seeing that in any canonical source.

"What it Ivalicegame?"

Game I used to run in the FFT Ivalice setting, 100 years after the War of the Lions. Was fun.

You have a negative zip code?

Sir, I am a negative zip code.

[enderlord99]

Sir, I am a negative zip code.

Seeing as zip codes are (sort of) locations, is it possible you're related to Neth?

[123456789blaaa]

<snip>
"Protect" isn't a word that usually comes to mind when referring to the demonic mentality.

Sure it is. The difference from mortals is that demons almost always only want to protect things for selfish reasons. Zuggtmoy wants to protect her layer, the Dark Prince wants to protect his library from thieves (when it doesn't benefit his plans to let them think they've gotten away with it...), etc etc etc. Ahazu is the one who created the prison by digging the shafts and he's the one who offered incentives to lure beings into being imprisoned. Ahazu has put a lot of effort into his prison so it makes sense that he'd want to stop other people from say...breaking the prisoners out.

Also, could you list the creatures you remember that make a practise of abducting people?

No it wouldn't. Layer = infinite. Divine realm = not infinite.
<snip>

Although the Wells of Darkness is a finite layer of the Abyss, it lies amidst an endless void that encompasses its physical core.

Unless the writers were being dumb (or I'm misinterpreting the quote), the Wells of Darkness are a special exception to the layers of the Abyss being infinite.

Perhaps the meaning is that Shattered Night is actually a part of the layer and the rocky part is just the physical part. Given that you need to go through a "planar tear" to get into SN though, I'm not sure that's correct.

The worms don't count.

Did he just decide to ignore that the worms are alive because he really likes worms or something?

I don't think so. A new God of Undeath walking Flanaess would be bad news for mortals, but he's still a Rank 1 Demigod, and there are several more powerful deities living on Oerth (Iuz, Vecna, Fharlanghn, Mayaheine, Obad-hai...etc.). I don't think he could push away all other gods.

If he was working with only himself and his followers no. Like Afro said though, the implication is that Kyuss is just the forerunner of something worse. That stuff I posted above about rains of Kyuss worms and such? None of that is Kyuss's doing. So it depends on how much worse the thing that will come will be.