Selective spell antimagic field

[alanek2002]

As far as I understand it, this is a very neat combo. However, there's a couple of things I'm not sure about.

• What can I cast out of it? No SR spells should work as they originate from me, but could I cast something like fireball?
  
• Magic weapons: from what I understand, If you attack from inside a antimagic field against a creature outside, your sword is still magical. Would it be magical if it hits me?
  
• I truly want this as a defense against disjunction, but only things inside the field are protected. Antimagic field doesn't affect me, but am I still inside?

So can any of the Brilliant minds here help me?
^Flattery

[Chronos]

Under the current rules for antimagic field, a selective spell antimagic field is close to useless: You can cast anything at people outside, and people outside can cast anything at you, because the field does not block line of effect.

However, due to some idiotic writing of how an AMF works, the effect of this rules change is that you can get much the same effect you're looking for without using Selective Spell. See, spells don't function within an AMF, but for some reason, there's no actual rule that you can't cast in one.

[eggynack]

AMF's are stupid, in other words. I've been in several arguments about how they operate, spanning many many pages, and I'm still pretty unsure about how the rules for them work. It's somewhat ironic, I think, because there are so many rules about AMF's, stretching across at least two separate books (PHB and RC), and yet they still couldn't really manage to get the rules to work as intended. The massive amount of rules may have even been to the spell's detriment, as far as it working is concerned.

[Emperor Tippy]

Under the current rules for antimagic field, a selective spell antimagic field is close to useless: You can cast anything at people outside, and people outside can cast anything at you, because the field does not block line of effect.

However, due to some idiotic writing of how an AMF works, the effect of this rules change is that you can get much the same effect you're looking for without using Selective Spell. See, spells don't function within an AMF, but for some reason, there's no actual rule that you can't cast in one.

Except no.

Anyone outside an AMF can cast any SR:No Instantaneous Conjuration at anyone inside of an AMF.

Anyone outside an AMF can cast any spell at anyone not covered by an AMF even if the spell needs to travel through the area covered by the AMF.

Anyone inside of an AMF can't cast any spells (even Instantaneous Conjurations) at anybody unless they use something like Invoke Magic as per the Rules Compendium on page 11.

A Selective AMF has no effect on the individual that it was made Selective for. For that individual it is as if the AMF simply does not exist. They can cast any spell that they want at any individual inside or outside the AMF, their magic items work perfectly, and they otherwise act as if their was no AMF there. For everyone else, however, the Selected individual is treated as if they were still inside the AMF (and thus can only be hit by SR: No instantaneous Conjurations cast outside of the AMF).

The reason for that is because Anti Magic Field does not cover individuals, it covers squares. While Extraordinary Spell Aim or other methods of excluding a given square are totally worthless, Selective Spell doesn't exclude a square. It just lets you totally ignore the effect.

[alanek2002]

Thank you all! (But especially Tippy.)


This is basically what I was hoping for, but wasn't certain if it worked as such. Happy days!

[Vindicus]

Except no.

Anyone outside an AMF can cast any SR:No Instantaneous Conjuration at anyone inside of an AMF.

Anyone outside an AMF can cast any spell at anyone not covered by an AMF even if the spell needs to travel through the area covered by the AMF.

Anyone inside of an AMF can't cast any spells (even Instantaneous Conjurations) at anybody unless they use something like Invoke Magic as per the Rules Compendium on page 11.

A Selective AMF has no effect on the individual that it was made Selective for. For that individual it is as if the AMF simply does not exist. They can cast any spell that they want at any individual inside or outside the AMF, their magic items work perfectly, and they otherwise act as if their was no AMF there. For everyone else, however, the Selected individual is treated as if they were still inside the AMF (and thus can only be hit by SR: No instantaneous Conjurations cast outside of the AMF).

The reason for that is because Anti Magic Field does not cover individuals, it covers squares. While Extraordinary Spell Aim or other methods of excluding a given square are totally worthless, Selective Spell doesn't exclude a square. It just lets you totally ignore the effect.

Where I disagree with this is that selective spell says that you ignore the effect, which for AMF means not just your spells. AMF doesn't care about the source. So someone who casts from outside AMF at you should still be able to affect you since we all agree that AMF does not block line of effect so no conflict there. The spell from the opponent travels through the AMF until it reaches you where normally without Selective spell it would be suppressed/nothing would happen, but since AMF does not effect YOU the spell takes effect. I think people are equating "you" and "your spells" as the same thing. If "you" are not affected by AMF then spells operate on you not just your spells but all spells. When seeing if a spell functions with regards to AMF we check for legality twice.

First if spells origin point is legal.

Second if spells target is legal.

AMF does not block line of effect so we do not need to check here for that with regards to AMF.



Lets see how this might work:

A wizard casts AMF (no selective spell) on himself during combat. On his next turn he tries to cast magic missile on an opponent 30' away(outside the AMF). The spell does not work since he is affected by AMF and Rules compendium pg. 11 says that Point of origin inside an AMF is entirely supressed. So point of origin fails the first check (point of origin not legal), even though our second check would have passed (target outside of AMF = legal).

Now lets look at the reverse. A wizard casts AMF (no selective spell) on himself during combat. An opponent 30' away (outside the AMF) tries to cast Magic Missile at our wizard with AMF (no selective spell). Point of origin is not affected by AMF (first check is passed = legal). The magic missle travels through the AMF until it reaches our target. Since our wizard is affected by his AMF the spell fails to do any damage (second check for legality fails)

Now lets see how this might work with selective spell in play with AMF:

Our wizard casts AMF (with selective spell)on himself. On his next turn he tries to cast magic missile on an opponent 30' away(outside the AMF). So first we check is the point of origin legal. Normally it would not be, but our wizard now is not affected by AMF so it passes the first check. The magic missile travels through and out of the AMF reappearing at the boundary of the AMF and streaks toward our opponent until it reaches him. We check to see if target is affected by AMF. Second check passes as our target is outside the AMF area so he is not affected by it.

And now for the reverse and main event... Our wizard casts AMF (with selective spell) on himself during combat. An opponent 30' away (outside the AMF) tries to cast Magic Missile at our wizard with AMF (with selective spell). Point of origin is not affected by AMF (first check is passed = legal). The magic missile travels through the AMF until it reaches our target. Now we have to check if our target is legal. Because our wizard is not affected by AMF he is a legal target and the second check passes. With both checks passed our wizard takes damage from his opponents magic missile.

A wizard trying to cast spells on himself has to make the same check for point of origin and target being legal.

Without selective spell, the point of origin check fails and the legal target check fails. Houston we have a problem.

With selective spell, the point of origin check passes and the legal target check passes. We are go for spell!

Please feel free to let me know if I have anything confused. Tippy, I hope you see this as I respect your work on this board and would like to hear your thoughts. I really would like to understand a little better those who think that AMF does not work like stated above.

[Anthrowhale]

There are some common rules confusions here leading to either a noneffect (Chronos and Vindicus) or an overwhelming effect (Tippy). Neither is correct.

Selective Spell [You] Antimagic Field only suppresses the effect on you. For example, if you are an incorporeal undead, you do not wink out. Selective Spell does not alter the interaction of AMF with equipment (unless "you" somehow are a piece of equipment), and it does not alter the interaction of AMF with spells. There is a general rule that if a spell does not effect you then it does not effect your equipment, but that rule is overridden by the specific effects of AMF itself.

So the confusions I see above are:

1. Selective[You] AMF does not create a hole in the AMF, and hence your equipment is protected from Disjunction.

   ...it does not affect one designated creature within it's area.

2. Selective[You] AMF does not keep your equipment and spells from being affected by AMF since AMF directly effects equipment and spells.

   ...it prevents the functioning of any magic items or spells within its confines.

3. Instantaneous Conjuration[Creation] effects with a point of origin inside of the AMF are suppressed since magic is used in their creation. See here

   If the spell has an instantaneous duration, the created object or creature is merely assembled through magic.

With regard to the OP's questions:

1. It depends on the spell. An AMF suppresses "most magical effects" and casting spells is magical, but it's unclear if the casting of a spell is actually distinguishable from 'you' which is not effected. I'd rule the fireball does not work since it fails to form a bead within the AMF. Something like Wall of Stone however which has no necessary magical manifestation within the AMF might work. This is the kind of thing you should ask a DM about.
2. The rules compendium unambiguously states that magic weapons don't work even if you attack an opponent not in the AMF.
3. Yes, you are still inside and hence you and your equipment are unaffected by Disjunction as long as the AMF holds.