"Because my life sucks"

[BabbageCliolog]

I've been reading Erfworld and been enjoying it but the latest was TOO cliche : A misfit gamer, fat, with a crappy job, bad social skills, nothing successful going on in his life, taking 5 months to create a game and explaining to his friends why he does stuff because his life sucks and how he's not willing to change ANYTHING to improve his life so he escapes into his head because he can't hack living in the US. Why not make him a cat-piss man, too?

It would be great if:
a) the protagonist was a successful lawyer, loved by coworkers, with a wife and kids, drives a ferrari, and games with his buddies from the law firm every other friday. He's sucked into this great world and wants to get home to his wife and family and his NORMAL LIFE.

Or

b) Parson gets pulled in and killed immediately because he can't hack Erfworld any more than he can hack Earth, and as a result someone else becomes the greatest warlord.

or

c) the Pizza guy who is wanting to make something of himself by working his way through college shows up at the door and gets PLOT'ed into Erfworld in place of Parson.

I don't game with the fat misfit gamer. I haven't gamed with the misfit gamer since high school.

I've spent 5 months working on a game, too. Not to the exclusion of the rest of my life, but because I enjoyed it.

One of the guy's in my game group DOES drive a ferrari. Two others each have a wife and a kid. Another was in a rock-and-roll band for 10 years and now makes computer games. I'm an engineer that has a masters degree in physics. We all have jobs and lives besides gaming.

I'm just disappointed in the too obvious cliche. I don't know if I'll keep reading it.

/BC

[The_Old_Fox]

dude, if this is a cliche than I am not to familiar with the "fat loser goes on wild adventure" genre.

I suppose I should read more.

In my opinion there seems to be many more stories about normal people and extraordinary people put in strange situations than stories about people who don't have it all together beeing thrust into a fantastic situation. I mean, In my experince protagonist usually are "supercool badass" or "avatar of everyman", much more rare in my experince in the loner misfit hero (as opposed to the much more common group of misfits).

Oh well, I suppose if you don't like the protagonist of a story you don't like the protagonist. We have all been there at one time or another.

[MinusInnocence]

I think this is a quaint spin on Joseph Campbell's Monomyth Cycle. The protagonist comes from mysterious origins (outside Erfworld) and is later discovered to have significant powers, a magic artifact or some other neat trick (intimate knowledge of the way Erfworld works). He goes on a quest, meeting a handful of interesting characters who either help or hinder him on the way (I suspect Wanda will fall into the former category and Jillian may be the latter) and eventually inherits the kingdom (that wouldn't be too shabby for a misfit loser). Finally, often due to his own hubris or because of some vile curse, the protagonist suffers a tragic death. I can't speculate on this but I would very much like if a dwagon pooped on him.

Anyway, my point is... so what? People have been telling stories that are basically exactly the same for thousands of years... not because humans aren't creative, we are, it's just that the story is so GOOD. It's worth retelling.

[Erk]

First, we are all gamers here... and thus should know just how true Parson's stereotype is. I can think of half a dozen people just like him out of the circles of people I've gamed with (except probably not as talented of GMs. Most of them are too busy being whiny). Probably more if I put my mind to it even a little. That's not cliche, that's using an archetype we are all very familiar with. Particularly effective since it's something real.

Second, I agree with MinusInnocence a lot. Cliche in and of itself is not a bad thing... like anything else it is a tool that can be used for good or ill. We've got a lot of time left to find out if Erfworld is going to rest too much on cliche, but at this stage it is batting pretty high. Cloth golems... hee hee.

[Maurog]

Does anyone else find it funny that choice a is actually much more cliche than about anything I can think of? "Sliders", anyone?

Choice b is certainly much more cliche breaking, but killing the protagonist too early makes for a very short comic. See reference.

Choice c just doesn't make any sense. Leading us on with Parson and then introducing some random guy from the real world we don't know anything about and plotting him into Erfworld?

Okay, I admit it, I didn't read the first post. I just looked at the smilies.

[Ashildr_the_Bard]

If you already have a completely successful protagonist, there's no conflict in the story. If Parson was a lawyer with a ferrari, he would make a terrible protagonist for this story. Yes, he would have an adventure and be a great warlord, but we would already expect him to be capable of that. There's no challenge. If he's a washed out Kinkos clerk with a crap life and social problems and still manages to prevail and come to some sort of self-realization in Erfworld, now that's a good story. Everyone likes an underdog.

And anyway, I don't think Parson is too cliche. I know a lot of people like him, but he's far from being the majority of the geek subculture.

[dibujante]

scrubbed

Hey, I summarized it for you. ;)

Has anyone read the Wiz series by Rick Cook? It's got a similar plot twist: a world of magic attempts to summon a powerful wizard from an alternate world to help them battle an Evil Overlord-esque character. However, they summon a wizard from our world: a programming wizard. It's hilarious.

Erfmod: Don't misquote forum posters with intent to antagonize them.

[BabbageCliolog]

Hey, I summarized it for you. ;)

I didn't write that. That's your slant on what I wrote. Sounds like a backhanded insult to me. Mods?

/BC

[Om]

If you already have a completely successful protagonist, there's no conflict in the story. If Parson was a lawyer with a ferrari, he would make a terrible protagonist for this story

But then we'd get the usual "rich overworked guy learns about the true values of life" that Hollywood has fed us son many times already

[Fenix]

I'm an engineer that has a masters degree in physics.

" I have an MBA, you know "
Roy Greenhilt

[Lucid_Archon]

I'm just disappointed in the too obvious cliche. I don't know if I'll keep reading it.

/BC

I think that is a bit of an over reaction. I'm not going to question your reasoning for disliking Parson, because that is your opinion and you have every right to it. But if you turn away from Erfworld because you don't like one character, then you are being foolish. Even if he is the protagonist, he won't occupy 100% of the screen time. Chances are he will often take a back seat to other subplots. You can still enjoy the comic despite the cliched protagonist. For example, I don't like Roy. I don't find him funny, just annoying. But I love OotS, despite his presence. Even when the plot directly revolves around him, I can still laugh at the antics of the characters around him. One character shouldn't be enough to ruin an entire comic for you, more so a comic as good as Erfworld.

[zeratul]

It would be great if:
a) the protagonist was a successful lawyer, loved by coworkers, with a wife and kids, drives a ferrari, and games with his buddies from the law firm every other friday. He's sucked into this great world and wants to get home to his wife and family and his NORMAL LIFE.

/BC

be realistic. maybe like five people like that are gamers in the US probably less than five. I am not ezagerating. That would be to unrealistic also even if it is cliche it applies to many gamers. That is why many people become gamers. because their life sucks.

[zeratul]

c) the Pizza guy who is wanting to make something of himself by working his way through college shows up at the door and gets PLOT'ed into Erfworld in place of Parson.

/BC

that would be even more cliche. I dont know how many movies and or comic books have had that. I mean thats the entire premise of Thor!

[Brickwall]

Why? Because it wouldn't make a good story, that's why. Nobody wants to hear about how some successful guy gets plot'd into a game, unless it causes conflict with his normal life, which he actually realizes isn't the dream life he thought he had. Nobody wants to hear about Mr. Pizza Guy unless he eventually finds out that Parson is somehow responsible for this, and he and Parson have to work together to save Erfworld and Pizza Guy's life. Nobody wants to have an apparent main character die off for no good reason, especially when there actually seems to be quite enough reason for him to live on (Wanda summoning him, possibly? could happen). Why do we have cliches? They WORK. You may not like the stereotype, but everything's a stereotype these days. The good plots have been written, and they just get rewritten over and over again, incorporated into other things, with superficially different characters. Originality became a joke before the fall of Rome. You would do well to realize that.

P.S. Larry, God of Chat Smilies, has deemed you a sinner in his sight. Go to internet hell. Do not pass "Go". Do not collect whatever $200 equates to after allthe inflation since the invention of Monopoly.

[BabbageCliolog]

dude, if this is a cliche than I am not to familiar with the "fat loser goes on wild adventure" genre.

Anyway, my point is... so what? People have been telling stories that are basically exactly the same for thousands of years... not because humans aren't creative, we are, it's just that the story is so GOOD. It's worth retelling.

First, we are all gamers here... and thus should know just how true Parson's stereotype is.

I think what bothered me the most was the idea that "gamers are losers who can't handle Real Life (tm)." That's a common stereotype that is repeated over and over again in society, in the media, even (unfortunately) among ourselves. Gamers themselves should be standing up to and saying "We're gamers and we're proud and we are successful people. We have kissed girls, we don't live in our parents' basement, and we have disposable income to buy stuff we want!"

I've known gamers like Parson. But I've also known more gamers like normal average people. The "gamers are losers" meme discounts and insults each and every one of us who actually has a life beyond gaming.

That's what I tried to say at first but didn't do too well. Sorry if I didn't make sense.

/BC

[BabbageCliolog]

P.S. Larry, God of Chat Smilies, has deemed you a sinner in his sight. Go to internet hell. Do not pass "Go". Do not collect whatever $200 equates to after allthe inflation since the invention of Monopoly.

I reject your false God and embrace my loving Shirley Kramer, Patron Saint of Empty Parking Spaces in a Full Parking Lot.

[TinSoldier]

It made sense to me, but I was able to roll with it. From your posts and from my own limited knowledge, I know that gamers like Parson really aren't that commone. Stereotypical, maybe. But common, not necessarily.

I can appreciate him for who he is. Hey, losers need to go on adventures too!

[BabbageCliolog]

be realistic. maybe like five people like that are gamers in the US probably less than five. I am not ezagerating. That would be to unrealistic also even if it is cliche it applies to many gamers. That is why many people become gamers. because their life sucks.

that would be even more cliche. I dont know how many movies and or comic books have had that. I mean thats the entire premise of Thor!

Why? Because it wouldn't make a good story, that's why. Nobody wants to hear about how some successful guy gets plot'd into a game, unless it causes conflict with his normal life, which he actually realizes isn't the dream life he thought he had.

OK, so my examples weren't the best, I can admit that. And at this time I can't come up with a compelling character (what's wrong, I can make a GURPS character in 15 minutes!).

/BC

[The_Old_Fox]

I think what bothered me the most was the idea that "gamers are losers who can't handle Real Life (tm)." That's a common stereotype that is repeated over and over again in society, in the media, even (unfortunately) among ourselves. Gamers themselves should be standing up to and saying "We're gamers and we're proud and we are successful people. We have kissed girls, we don't live in our parents' basement, and we have disposable income to buy stuff we want!"

Lies!! Lies and Slander!!

No I get what you saying, however I think that the "stereotypical gamer" (as you would put it) overcoming adversity and being a hero (if this is what happens and it very well may not) is more powerful a message and image than atypical successful gamer saves the day. It shows that the stereotype, can overcome what is expected of him. Just my humble opinion.

[swordmaster2000]

No I get what you saying, however I think that the "stereotypical gamer" (as you would put it) overcoming adversity and being a hero (if this is what happens and it very well may not) is more powerful a message and image than atypical successful gamer saves the day. It shows that the stereotype, can overcome what is expected of him. Just my humble opinion.[/quote]

see thats the whole steryotype of it. a person of humble beginings becomes a hero and saves the day. Ever read Eragon- simple young man finds a dragon egg pecomes powerful save the day or The Lord Of The Rings- a simple little hobbit proves even little people can do great things. Frankly It's been done to death.
Not that death is bad! I love cliches pirates with peglegs, Werewolves vs. vamps, dragons who capture princesses (and then eat them before you can save them) all cool! but I think thats what Babbage is getting at with the cliche complaining

sorry for rambling

[The_Old_Fox]

hmmmmm... perhaps

but I think there is a difference between common man and total loser stereotype.

I dunno, perhaps.

[Erk]

I see the point (so far) as being more that the "stereotypical gamer" - and I hate to admit it, but most of my friends who still game fall at least 30% of the way into that archetype (I'm only at 15%) - is not such a weak, useless person to be. Just misplaced, or unsure of his/her place. And that, I think, is really true. That's why a lot of gamers get so lost in escapism... they/we don't have interests and skillsets that really work in the lives they/we lead.

Of course, with most of the people I knew in highschool, they kicked themselves in the butt and worked on finding a niche that was similar but not reliant on escapism, but there are still a lot like Parson who are in their 20's and haven't found the right kick in the pants yet. I would be like Parson now if I hadn't received a science scholarship that required me to go straight into university instead of effin' around doing nothing after highschool. For Parson, it seems like the kick in the pants is particularly... interesting... that's all. PLOT!

For me it boils down to the fact that stereotypes and cliches can be a useful writing tool. By starting with a stock character and building on it, we don't need a lot of introduction time to get to know the protagonist. The interest is not his history, but his future. Now, if Parson remains a useless gamer geek throughout the comic and the jokes from here on all revolve around "ha ha Parson is a dork who never leaves his basement, is overweight, has no motivation beyond escapism, and should never have been chosen as Warlord", then I will feel very let-down and have to agree with you. I don't think that will be the case though.

[Machiara]

a) the protagonist was a successful lawyer, loved by coworkers, with a wife and kids, drives a ferrari, and games with his buddies from the law firm every other friday. He's sucked into this great world and wants to get home to his wife and family and his NORMAL LIFE.

Hey, I'M an appellate lawyer with a wife and kids! Although I drive a Toyota. If I got sucked into Erfworld, I'd be in no hurry to get back; who's to say its not a "Lion, Witch and the Wardrobe" type thing (i.e., you come back at exactly the same time you left no matter how long you spend there)? :D

[InaVegt]

Any stereotype is bound to be incorrect, I myself have never seen the stereotypical dutch person with wooden shoes (never seen anyone wear them), traditional clothing (that's only for the tourists), a couple of tulips in one hand (we produce them because they sell, not because we like them so much) and a joint in the other (contrary to popular belief we aren't all junkies). And I'm sure my view of the average american is bound to be wrong as well.

[ClericofPhwarrr]

I think what bothered me the most was the idea that "gamers are losers who can't handle Real Life (tm)." That's a common stereotype that is repeated over and over again in society, in the media, even (unfortunately) among ourselves. Gamers themselves should be standing up to and saying "We're gamers and we're proud and we are successful people. We have kissed girls, we don't live in our parents' basement, and we have disposable income to buy stuff we want!"

I've known gamers like Parson. But I've also known more gamers like normal average people. The "gamers are losers" meme discounts and insults each and every one of us who actually has a life beyond gaming.

That's what I tried to say at first but didn't do too well. Sorry if I didn't make sense.

/BC

Did you take a look at Parson's gaming group? Parson is the only one of the five who falls into this category. Ashna, a gamer, is even concerned with Parson's escapism.

Oh wait, Ashna's a female gamer, and therefore doesn't exist .

[InaVegt]

Oh wait, Ashna's a female gamer, and therefore doesn't exist .

*looks at gender symbol*

okay

*looks at stacks of D&D/WoD/Exalted/D20 modern rulebooks*

So, you're implying I don't exist, aren't you?

[Nikolai_II]

dude, if this is a cliche than I am not to familiar with the "fat loser goes on wild adventure" genre.

I suppose I should read more.

The Neverending Story (the book, not the movie) is a great "fat looser -> wild adventure" story. Well worth a read :)

[Brickwall]

*looks at gender symbol*

okay

*looks at stacks of D&D/WoD/Exalted/D20 modern rulebooks*

So, you're implying I don't exist, aren't you?

I think he's implying that you're not a female. Just keep in mind that I do not share his viewpoint, I am only a translator.

*flee*

[Alynn]

I think he's implying that you're not a female. Just keep in mind that I do not share his viewpoint, I am only a translator.

*flee*

Also, you are posting on the internet, which as we all know, there are no girls on the internet either so either:

A) You don't exist
B) You are a guy.

So which one is it?

As far as the Stereotype goes, for this it's perfect for a few reasons. One being Lord Stanley's rant of what he wanted in the perfect warlord, and he got what he wished for. Without that there wouldn't be a joke. Another, Stanley wanted someone that wanted to come to Erf (well leave his own world), and if Parson didn't hate his life, why would he want to leave?

Honestly, in some instances stereotypes work. Hell in some forms of entertainment the entire humor of the thing is stereotypical looks and behavior.

Just roll with it, I have a feeling Parson is going to learn that fighting wars isn't as easy as a roll of the dice.

[Karellen]

I think in this case the whole "fat miserable no-life geek" thing should be taken more as brutal honesty rather than as a stereotype. It seems kind of patronizing to me to suggest that the main character should always be presented as a superior specimen of whatever group he represents. If this guy was a bit character in a bad Hollywood movie, I might see the problem, but here he's a main character, and as such has decent room for development.

Fact is, as someone mentioned already, the four other gamers look perfectly normal, so I don't think this can be really taken as an example of looking down on gamers. And hell, we're all gamers, we know what gamers are like, and everybody who'll ever read this comic will too; I don't really see why, this being the case, the main character should project some kind of "successful" image. Isn't this really projecting our insecurities on a fictional character?