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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k Fluff Thread VIII: "Khorne's Most Favourite Thread EVER"

    The Chaos Gods, from where I am sitting, are just the most powerful Daemons in existence.

    Now, one can argue that the definition of 'God' depends on the religion. Judaism, Christianity and Islam would require a deity to be infinitely powerful, whereas Norse Paganism has Gods that are slain by others.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k Fluff Thread VIII: "Khorne's Most Favourite Thread EVER"

    Psykery; Something that you're born with. You have no control over it. It's the Imperium's job to use you up until you shrivel and die. D&D Sorcerer. Good.

    Sorcery; Something anyone can learn. Using books, and, more importantly, pacts with Daemons. Because anyone can learn it, the Imperium wants to put a stop to it, real quick. Bargaining with the Warp is never good and can only ever end badly. D&D Wizard. Bad.

    Chaos 'Gods'; The most powerful Daemons in existence. They are definitely not 'Gods'.


    EDIT: Yes, you can be a Psyker and a Sorcerer at the same time.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k Fluff Thread VIII: "Khorne's Most Favourite Thread EVER"

    Lots to reply to

    Quote Originally Posted by bluntpencil View Post
    Being powerful does not make one a God. Is Superman a deity?
    A good question, Superman is often refered to as being a god (if only in metaphor in his comics). I would just say Superman is not immortal and doesn't gain power from being worshipped

    Posted by Wraith
    See above for the definition of Sorcery (hint: It's not the same thing as "magic"
    But it is. As I said the Warp is the source of all magic in the 40K universe, calling it Sorcery doesn't change the fact that this is what it is. Energy from another realm that performs changes impossible by normal means
    GolemsVoice put it better than me

    They are not magical - the Warp is a state of energy which can be, and is, manipulated, coerced, controlled and exploited via technological means.
    The amount sentient beings can 'control' the Warp with technology is equivalent to dipping one's toe in the ocean and saying you control it. And it often goes wrong even then

    Though they are unfathomable and wield enormous power, they are nevertheless sufficiently dependent on sustenance (in the form of emotion and worship) to be considered "mortal". Without this sustenance they wither and die.
    Most gods in fiction are considered dependent on worship, it is arguably one of the defining features of a god

    Posted by Cheesegear
    Chaos 'Gods'; The most powerful Daemons in existence. They are definitely not 'Gods'.
    Define what a god is then please

    And i just missed the film I was going to see
    Damn you for dragging me into this interesting argument, you will all rue the day
    Last edited by comicshorse; 2014-02-11 at 07:58 AM.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k Fluff Thread VIII: "Khorne's Most Favourite Thread EVER"

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post

    Chaos 'Gods'; The most powerful Daemons in existence. They are definitely not 'Gods'.
    Is this explicitly stated somewhere by a neutral source (that is, not a character but by a writer speaking on behalf of BL/GW), or is this one of those "sufficiently powerful entity that from a certain perspective is/is not a god" sort of dealies?

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    Quote Originally Posted by LansXero View Post
    Anyways, has anyone noticed how a lot of what goes wrong during the heresy can be blamed on the Eldar? In Angel Exterminatus, its an eldar guide that leads Fulgrim into the source for Angron's eventual ascension into a Daemon Prince. And the one who send John Grammaticus to turn the Alpha Legion around and kill Vulkan are "a cabal of aliens" who are also probably led by the Eldar, somehow. It makes sense, that the ones who would be most terrified of the Emperor succeeding in his human-built webway are not the Chaos "gods", but the Eldar; if the Imperium managed to reliably establish a foothold into the webway, the Eldar (specially the dark kind) would be done for.
    The situation for the Eldar after the Heresy was the best possible. The Chaos gods lost and were weakened, the Imperium barely won but was also so weakened that they gave up on their Galaxy conquering spree, and discontinued with access to the Webway.

    Given their powers of predicting the future I don't really doubt they did more then nudge events into what they turned out. Though if they did they had to tread a thin line.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tehnar View Post
    The situation for the Eldar after the Heresy was the best possible. The Chaos gods lost and were weakened, the Imperium barely won but was also so weakened that they gave up on their Galaxy conquering spree, and discontinued with access to the Webway.

    Given their powers of predicting the future I don't really doubt they did more then nudge events into what they turned out. Though if they did they had to tread a thin line.
    Uhh, no. Chaos did not lose. Yes the Imperium of Man remained but in the conflict they managed to not only get tens of thousands of elite warriors ready to kill in their name but also ensured that the Imperium would become the type of hell that would make it oh so easy for an individual to fall to Chaos and in so doing further invigorate the Dark Gods.

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    There are a few bits in the fluff that state that sorcery is not magic, it's a type of science or an enhancement of ones own psychic potential. The best example I can think of is Fabricator Oriax, an Iron Warriors Techmarine in Siege of Castellax who has figured out the whole daemons are reflections of our emotions thing and resolved to learn how predictable the warp really is. He learned that you can control it perfectly accurately through sufficient trial and error, it's all about knowing the correct input.
    Sanity is nice to visit, but I wouldn't want to live there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ulm11 View Post
    Uhh, no. Chaos did not lose. Yes the Imperium of Man remained but in the conflict they managed to not only get tens of thousands of elite warriors ready to kill in their name but also ensured that the Imperium would become the type of hell that would make it oh so easy for an individual to fall to Chaos and in so doing further invigorate the Dark Gods.
    Semantics. The Chaos Gods aim was to kill the Emperor (by all sources that I can think of at the minute). They failed to achieve their primary objective in its entirety.

    It would be like the Second World War being "won" but with half of mainland Europe still in the hands of the Nazi's.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k Fluff Thread VIII: "Khorne's Most Favourite Thread EVER"

    Quote Originally Posted by Vaz View Post
    Semantics. The Chaos Gods aim was to kill the Emperor (by all sources that I can think of at the minute). They failed to achieve their primary objective in its entirety.

    It would be like the Second World War being "won" but with half of mainland Europe still in the hands of the Nazi's.
    Ah, but you think the war is over? Chaos plays the long game, the Imperium will fall eventually.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grim Portent View Post
    There are a few bits in the fluff that state that sorcery is not magic, it's a type of science or an enhancement of ones own psychic potential. The best example I can think of is Fabricator Oriax, an Iron Warriors Techmarine in Siege of Castellax who has figured out the whole daemons are reflections of our emotions thing and resolved to learn how predictable the warp really is. He learned that you can control it perfectly accurately through sufficient trial and error, it's all about knowing the correct input.
    Well, the Dark Heresy books (specifically, the one about radical inquisitors) say that sorcery is independent of psykers. It is presented as a way to mimic their powers by making gestures and chanting specific sounds to affect the Warp in certain ways (like summoning daemons or shooting lightning). Non-psykers can use it, and psykers can augment their powers with it (this is what csm sorcerers do). However it is a very corrupting technique that opens the user for Chaos influence. I would not say that it is an exact science, since it has very mystical trappings. For example, the Black Legion sorcerer in the Word Bearers trilogy uses powers that are clearly non-psychic in nature and resemble fantasy magic very strongly (like chanting an icantation and making ritualised hand gestures to summon a wall of darkness with very peculiar properties). Marduk and the dark apostles are also capable of ritual sorcery, they summon demons through elaborate rituals and enter meditative trances (involving litanies of Lorgar and the ingestion of certain herbs) during which they are capable of astral projection, despite the fact that they are not psykers. This seems like magic to me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Drasius View Post
    Ah, but you think the war is over? Chaos plays the long game, the Imperium will fall eventually.
    My understanding of the story was, essentially, that Horus and the Chaos Space Marines lost, but the Chaos Gods won big time. They created a situation in which their eventual victory is practically assured.
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    Quote Originally Posted by 13_CBS View Post
    is this one of those "sufficiently powerful entity that from a certain perspective is/is not a god" sort of dealies?
    Emperor says there's no Gods.
    Magnus says there's no Gods.
    Lorgar is deluded into seeing what he wants to see.
    Ahriman says there's no Gods. He even thinks he can kill a God. And if you can kill a God, then they're not Gods.

    The Chaos Gods are really, really powerful Daemons (that's why Ahriman thinks he can kill them).
    Is one Lord of Change a God? No.
    If one Lord of Change kills another Lord of Change, and absorbs its power - like Daemons do - is it a God yet? No.

    How many Lords of Change crammed together does it take to make Tzeentch? Because that's what's up.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ulm11 View Post
    Uhh, no. Chaos did not lose.
    Correct. The vision Alpharius was given is totally correct. No matter what happens, Chaos wins. Horus being dead only makes it take longer.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k Fluff Thread VIII: "Khorne's Most Favourite Thread EVER"

    [QUOTE=Cheesegear;16977097 He even thinks he can kill a God. And if you can kill a God, then they're not Gods.
    [/QUOTE]

    So the Norse gods aren't gods, or the early Greek ones or indeed any Pantheon whose legends have an apocalypse as part of them ( or the Forgotten Realms gods while we're at it). Gods dying is pretty common
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k Fluff Thread VIII: "Khorne's Most Favourite Thread EVER"

    What we've run into here is a massive philosophical Question-with-a-capital-Q: "What is a God?". Or perhaps more usefully: "What do we mean when we use the word "God"?" Pretty much every human culture in history has had a slightly different definition of the term, and there have been many... disagreements... over it down the years.
    And that's about all I think we can discuss on the topic without breaking forum rules.

    Suffice it to say, it apparently still hasn't been solved in the 41st millennium.
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    Quote Originally Posted by comicshorse View Post
    So the Norse gods aren't gods, or the early Greek ones or indeed any Pantheon whose legends have an apocalypse as part of them ( or the Forgotten Realms gods while we're at it). Gods dying is pretty common
    Not for the Judeo-Christian God. It doesn't matter what we, IRL, think. What matters is what the people who are considered 'experts' on the subject think. Magnus and Ahriman, the two characters in a position to know such things, both agree that there are no Gods. This is the metaphysics of the setting.

    Quote Originally Posted by Voidhawk View Post
    What we've run into here is a massive philosophical Question-with-a-capital-Q: "What is a God?". Or perhaps more usefully: "What do we mean when the word "God" is used?"
    We use the term as the setting applies it. Which is apparently the JC God that is all-knowing, all-powerful, unkillable. And the Chaos Gods are none of those three things, and neither is the Emperor.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k Fluff Thread VIII: "Khorne's Most Favourite Thread EVER"

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    What matters is what the people who are considered 'experts' on the subject think. Magnus and Ahriman, the two characters in a position to know such things, both agree that there are no Gods. This is the metaphysics of the setting.
    Lorgar and his Legion disagree. I suspect that the other Primarchs turned Demon Princes might have a take on it to

    That said I think Voidhawk has the right of it and so will leave this here
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    Quote Originally Posted by comicshorse View Post
    Lorgar and his Legion disagree.
    Lorgar sees what he wants to see. That's why Magnus was worried (except not worried enough to tell anyone, apparently).
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    Emperor says there's no Gods.
    Magnus says there's no Gods.
    Lorgar is deluded into seeing what he wants to see.
    Ahriman says there's no Gods. He even thinks he can kill a God. And if you can kill a God, then they're not Gods.

    The Chaos Gods are really, really powerful Daemons (that's why Ahriman thinks he can kill them).
    Is one Lord of Change a God? No.
    While Lorgar is certainly delusional, I'm not sure if the word of the Emperor, Magnus, and Ahriman are completely trustworthy, either:

    Emps: didn't he also tell Horus that, like, daemons are just mindless warp entities? Alternatively, since the Emperor is so powerful, perhaps from his perspective the Chaos Gods don't seem very much like gods at all, just sufficiently powerful daemons.

    Magnus: this was the guy who, in his expert opinion, also thought he was pretty much the total master of the Warp. I would think his hubris (one of his defining features) would distort his view of things, much like Lorgar and his bias towards wanting to believe that there are gods.

    Ahriman: on what basis does he think he can kill a god? He's also from the very Legion that thought reckless use of sorcery was a good idea, so like with Magnus I would think his view of the Warp is...distorted.

    As an aside, in the words of Lorgar from The First Heretic:

    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar
    ‘I will not be silenced because you do not like the melody of one single word. In your grip, a thousand worlds turn! By your will, a million vessels sail the void. You are
    immortal, undying, seeing all and knowing all that transpires across creation. Father, you are a god in all but name. All that remains is to confess to it.’

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k Fluff Thread VIII: "Khorne's Most Favourite Thread EVER"

    As I recall the Emperor told Horus that daemons are another kind of alien, they just come from another dimension rather than another world and as such don't play by our rules.
    Sanity is nice to visit, but I wouldn't want to live there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    Emperor says there's no Gods.
    Magnus says there's no Gods.
    Lorgar is deluded into seeing what he wants to see.
    Ahriman says there's no Gods. He even thinks he can kill a God. And if you can kill a God, then they're not Gods.

    The Chaos Gods are really, really powerful Daemons (that's why Ahriman thinks he can kill them).
    Is one Lord of Change a God? No.
    If one Lord of Change kills another Lord of Change, and absorbs its power - like Daemons do - is it a God yet? No.

    How many Lords of Change crammed together does it take to make Tzeentch? Because that's what's up.
    Yeah, but The Big E is dead and the other 3 are dirty traitors, can't take any of their words at face value. Or are you secretly the Emperor, trying to convince us that there's no such thing as sorcery/gods/daemons to weaken the mighty powers of chaos?

    I thought that each lord of change and even the lesser daemons were basically just a manifestation of their patron self. Ie, each lord of change is a facet of Tzeentch, with LoC's being much stronger manifestations, or at least a greater coelecence, than something like horrors.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Drasius View Post
    I thought that each lord of change and even the lesser daemons were basically just a manifestation of their patron self. Ie, each lord of change is a facet of Tzeentch, with LoC's being much stronger manifestations, or at least a greater coelecence, than something like horrors.
    A daemon is a fragment of the god's power, it's personality is separate from it's god but will always reflect it in some fashion. When/if the god takes the power back the mind of the daemon dissolves.
    Sanity is nice to visit, but I wouldn't want to live there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Drasius View Post
    Or are you secretly the Emperor, trying to convince us that there's no such thing as sorcery/gods/daemons to weaken the mighty powers of chaos?
    Well...Obviously. About now is the time I rise up with my pals who I've gengineered; John Grammaticus and Oll Persson, and the other Eternals, and using my Biology training and access to pathogen labs, according to history, I need to start the Thunder Warrior project, like, yesterday.

    ...Soon...

    I thought that each lord of change and even the lesser daemons were basically just a manifestation of their patron self.
    Both. The Big 4 tear off a piece of themselves and throw it into space making Daemons. Daemons then start reabsorbing each other (or human souls), becoming more and more powerful until eventually they get banished or killed, and then they head into the Warp to be reabsorbed into their patron...And then they get 'born' again.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    Well...Obviously. About now is the time I rise up with my pals who I've gengineered; John Grammaticus and Oll Persson, and the other Eternals, and using my Biology training and access to pathogen labs, according to history, I need to start the Thunder Warrior project, like, yesterday.

    ...Soon...
    So the 40K books and games are just some experiment you're running to get an idea as to how people will respond to the future you plan to bring about. Genius

    Just one small word of advice your Majesty if there's one thing you should learn from this, its that you will need to talk to your sons more

    In the grim darkness of the future THERE IS ONLY WAR ! When what there needs to be is family counselling
    Last edited by comicshorse; 2014-02-12 at 10:05 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by comicshorse View Post
    In the grim darkness of the future THERE IS ONLY WAR ! When what there needs to be is family counselling
    Or at least a trip onto Jerry Springer.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    There is no magic or Gods, and anyone who says otherwise is wrong.
    ...
    There was no magic involved in the creation of the Primarchs, save the Emperor's DNA.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    He crushed technology that could not be adequately explained using science. No more, no less.
    Sooo, you first say that there's no magic, and then say there's countless things science can't explain. I'm afraid you're contradicing yourself there.

    Also, it's a pretty well known fact that the emprah ordered certain kind of tech to be destroyed in sight, in particular advanced AIs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    We use the term as the setting applies it. Which is apparently the JC God that is all-knowing, all-powerful, unkillable. And the Chaos Gods are none of those three things, and neither is the Emperor.
    Well, going by the scientific method, the chaos gods are unkillable. They didn't get killed so far at least. Khaine the eldar god of war couldn't be killed either, neither did the C'tans. You can break them into many little pieces, but they still won't die.

    Being all-powerful isn't a valid prerequisite, because JC God cannot create a stone so heavy he/she/it him/her/itself couldn't lift, thus he/she/it's not all-powerful, and thus neither the chaos gods need to be (mind you, they can do stuff that nobody else comes close to, like ressurecting people at will)

    Being all-knowing is quite possible. They just happen to be all insane and obsessive-compulsive with stuff. Khorne is obsessed with war, thus he needs to make sure he has enemies. Tzenceht can't go whitout scheming, and thus also needs people he can scheme against. Nurgle needs people to be alive and well before he can rot them. And Slanesh of course needs fresh beings to slaneshifi all the time.
    Last edited by deuterio12; 2014-02-12 at 12:25 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by deuterio12 View Post
    Sooo, you first say that there's no magic, and then say there's countless things science can't explain. I'm afraid you're contradicing yourself there.
    I realised that when the first person called me out on it.
    What I meant was, there is no magic sorcery because the Emperor really, really, really doesn't want you using it.

    So, when the Emperor says "There's no magic or Gods." what he's trying to do is keep people in ignorance so they don't go messing with the Warp. Now, there is magic Sorcery. But, there are at least two major scholars in the 'verse who say there a no Gods as well.

    in particular advanced AIs.
    'Xeno Tech' and 'AIs' are two completely different kettles of fish and you know it.

    Well, going by the scientific method, the chaos gods are unkillable.
    Theoretically, if every Warp-sensitive race gave themselves a frontal lobotomy with an ice pick, the Chaos Gods would die overnight. Unfortunately, there's no real way to test that. Poor scientific method.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k Fluff Thread VIII: "Khorne's Most Favourite Thread EVER"

    Not for the Judeo-Christian God. It doesn't matter what we, IRL, think. What matters is what the people who are considered 'experts' on the subject think. Magnus and Ahriman, the two characters in a position to know such things, both agree that there are no Gods. This is the metaphysics of the setting.
    So, when the Emperor says "There's no magic or Gods." what he's trying to do is keep people in ignorance so they don't go messing with the Warp. Now, there is magic Sorcery. But, there are at least two major scholars in the 'verse who say there a no Gods as well.
    And we have a group of people, the Eldar Farseers, both make those 2 look like ignorant children and at the same time tell us there is indeed Gods.
    thnx to Starwoof for the fine avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by comicshorse View Post
    Just one small word of advice your Majesty if there's one thing you should learn from this, its that you will need to talk to your sons more

    In the grim darkness of the future THERE IS ONLY WAR ! When what there needs to be is family counselling
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    Or at least a trip onto Jerry Springer.
    This should be a webcomic. or a fanfic.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lix Lorn View Post
    This should be a webcomic. or a fanfic.
    This is the best you get.

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    Last edited by Cheesegear; 2014-02-13 at 06:36 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anuan View Post
    Cheesegear; Lovable Thesaurus ItP.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lycan 01 View Post
    Cheesegear, have I told you yet that you're awesome?
    Quote Originally Posted by MeatShield#236 View Post
    ALL HAIL LORD CHEESEGEAR! Cheese for the cheesegear!
    Quote Originally Posted by Shas'aia Toriia View Post
    Cheesegear is awesome

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k Fluff Thread VIII: "Khorne's Most Favourite Thread EVER"

    I love it. xD
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thanqol View Post
    It's like the feng shui version of an orbital death laser.

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