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2014-02-11, 07:33 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40k Fluff Thread VIII: "Khorne's Most Favourite Thread EVER"
The Chaos Gods, from where I am sitting, are just the most powerful Daemons in existence.
Now, one can argue that the definition of 'God' depends on the religion. Judaism, Christianity and Islam would require a deity to be infinitely powerful, whereas Norse Paganism has Gods that are slain by others.
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2014-02-11, 07:40 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40k Fluff Thread VIII: "Khorne's Most Favourite Thread EVER"
Psykery; Something that you're born with. You have no control over it. It's the Imperium's job to use you up until you shrivel and die. D&D Sorcerer. Good.
Sorcery; Something anyone can learn. Using books, and, more importantly, pacts with Daemons. Because anyone can learn it, the Imperium wants to put a stop to it, real quick. Bargaining with the Warp is never good and can only ever end badly. D&D Wizard. Bad.
Chaos 'Gods'; The most powerful Daemons in existence. They are definitely not 'Gods'.
EDIT: Yes, you can be a Psyker and a Sorcerer at the same time.
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2014-02-11, 07:49 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40k Fluff Thread VIII: "Khorne's Most Favourite Thread EVER"
Lots to reply to
A good question, Superman is often refered to as being a god (if only in metaphor in his comics). I would just say Superman is not immortal and doesn't gain power from being worshipped
Posted by Wraith
See above for the definition of Sorcery (hint: It's not the same thing as "magic"
GolemsVoice put it better than me
They are not magical - the Warp is a state of energy which can be, and is, manipulated, coerced, controlled and exploited via technological means.
Though they are unfathomable and wield enormous power, they are nevertheless sufficiently dependent on sustenance (in the form of emotion and worship) to be considered "mortal". Without this sustenance they wither and die.
Posted by Cheesegear
Chaos 'Gods'; The most powerful Daemons in existence. They are definitely not 'Gods'.
And i just missed the film I was going to see
Damn you for dragging me into this interesting argument, you will all rue the dayLast edited by comicshorse; 2014-02-11 at 07:58 AM.
All Comicshorse's posts come with the advisor : This is just my opinion any difficulties arising from implementing my ideas are your own problem
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2014-02-11, 07:58 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40k Fluff Thread VIII: "Khorne's Most Favourite Thread EVER"
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2014-02-11, 08:38 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40k Fluff Thread VIII: "Khorne's Most Favourite Thread EVER"
The situation for the Eldar after the Heresy was the best possible. The Chaos gods lost and were weakened, the Imperium barely won but was also so weakened that they gave up on their Galaxy conquering spree, and discontinued with access to the Webway.
Given their powers of predicting the future I don't really doubt they did more then nudge events into what they turned out. Though if they did they had to tread a thin line.
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2014-02-11, 08:46 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40k Fluff Thread VIII: "Khorne's Most Favourite Thread EVER"
Uhh, no. Chaos did not lose. Yes the Imperium of Man remained but in the conflict they managed to not only get tens of thousands of elite warriors ready to kill in their name but also ensured that the Imperium would become the type of hell that would make it oh so easy for an individual to fall to Chaos and in so doing further invigorate the Dark Gods.
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2014-02-11, 09:02 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40k Fluff Thread VIII: "Khorne's Most Favourite Thread EVER"
There are a few bits in the fluff that state that sorcery is not magic, it's a type of science or an enhancement of ones own psychic potential. The best example I can think of is Fabricator Oriax, an Iron Warriors Techmarine in Siege of Castellax who has figured out the whole daemons are reflections of our emotions thing and resolved to learn how predictable the warp really is. He learned that you can control it perfectly accurately through sufficient trial and error, it's all about knowing the correct input.
Sanity is nice to visit, but I wouldn't want to live there.
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2014-02-11, 11:08 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40k Fluff Thread VIII: "Khorne's Most Favourite Thread EVER"
Semantics. The Chaos Gods aim was to kill the Emperor (by all sources that I can think of at the minute). They failed to achieve their primary objective in its entirety.
It would be like the Second World War being "won" but with half of mainland Europe still in the hands of the Nazi's.
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2014-02-11, 04:37 PM (ISO 8601)
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2014-02-11, 04:54 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40k Fluff Thread VIII: "Khorne's Most Favourite Thread EVER"
Well, the Dark Heresy books (specifically, the one about radical inquisitors) say that sorcery is independent of psykers. It is presented as a way to mimic their powers by making gestures and chanting specific sounds to affect the Warp in certain ways (like summoning daemons or shooting lightning). Non-psykers can use it, and psykers can augment their powers with it (this is what csm sorcerers do). However it is a very corrupting technique that opens the user for Chaos influence. I would not say that it is an exact science, since it has very mystical trappings. For example, the Black Legion sorcerer in the Word Bearers trilogy uses powers that are clearly non-psychic in nature and resemble fantasy magic very strongly (like chanting an icantation and making ritualised hand gestures to summon a wall of darkness with very peculiar properties). Marduk and the dark apostles are also capable of ritual sorcery, they summon demons through elaborate rituals and enter meditative trances (involving litanies of Lorgar and the ingestion of certain herbs) during which they are capable of astral projection, despite the fact that they are not psykers. This seems like magic to me.
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2014-02-11, 05:33 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40k Fluff Thread VIII: "Khorne's Most Favourite Thread EVER"
LGBTitP Supporter
In a Wonderland they lie, Dreaming as the days go by, Dreaming as the summers die - Ever drifting down the stream - Lingering in the golden gleam - Life, what is it, but a dream?
- Lewis Carroll
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2014-02-11, 06:59 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40k Fluff Thread VIII: "Khorne's Most Favourite Thread EVER"
Emperor says there's no Gods.
Magnus says there's no Gods.
Lorgar is deluded into seeing what he wants to see.
Ahriman says there's no Gods. He even thinks he can kill a God. And if you can kill a God, then they're not Gods.
The Chaos Gods are really, really powerful Daemons (that's why Ahriman thinks he can kill them).
Is one Lord of Change a God? No.
If one Lord of Change kills another Lord of Change, and absorbs its power - like Daemons do - is it a God yet? No.
How many Lords of Change crammed together does it take to make Tzeentch? Because that's what's up.
Correct. The vision Alpharius was given is totally correct. No matter what happens, Chaos wins. Horus being dead only makes it take longer.
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2014-02-11, 07:17 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40k Fluff Thread VIII: "Khorne's Most Favourite Thread EVER"
[QUOTE=Cheesegear;16977097 He even thinks he can kill a God. And if you can kill a God, then they're not Gods.
[/QUOTE]
So the Norse gods aren't gods, or the early Greek ones or indeed any Pantheon whose legends have an apocalypse as part of them ( or the Forgotten Realms gods while we're at it). Gods dying is pretty commonAll Comicshorse's posts come with the advisor : This is just my opinion any difficulties arising from implementing my ideas are your own problem
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2014-02-11, 08:18 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40k Fluff Thread VIII: "Khorne's Most Favourite Thread EVER"
What we've run into here is a massive philosophical Question-with-a-capital-Q: "What is a God?". Or perhaps more usefully: "What do we mean when we use the word "God"?" Pretty much every human culture in history has had a slightly different definition of the term, and there have been many... disagreements... over it down the years.
And that's about all I think we can discuss on the topic without breaking forum rules.
Suffice it to say, it apparently still hasn't been solved in the 41st millennium.Last edited by Voidhawk; 2014-02-11 at 08:21 PM.
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2014-02-11, 08:23 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40k Fluff Thread VIII: "Khorne's Most Favourite Thread EVER"
Not for the Judeo-Christian God. It doesn't matter what we, IRL, think. What matters is what the people who are considered 'experts' on the subject think. Magnus and Ahriman, the two characters in a position to know such things, both agree that there are no Gods. This is the metaphysics of the setting.
We use the term as the setting applies it. Which is apparently the JC God that is all-knowing, all-powerful, unkillable. And the Chaos Gods are none of those three things, and neither is the Emperor.
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2014-02-11, 08:33 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40k Fluff Thread VIII: "Khorne's Most Favourite Thread EVER"
All Comicshorse's posts come with the advisor : This is just my opinion any difficulties arising from implementing my ideas are your own problem
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2014-02-11, 08:34 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40k Fluff Thread VIII: "Khorne's Most Favourite Thread EVER"
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2014-02-12, 07:38 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40k Fluff Thread VIII: "Khorne's Most Favourite Thread EVER"
While Lorgar is certainly delusional, I'm not sure if the word of the Emperor, Magnus, and Ahriman are completely trustworthy, either:
Emps: didn't he also tell Horus that, like, daemons are just mindless warp entities? Alternatively, since the Emperor is so powerful, perhaps from his perspective the Chaos Gods don't seem very much like gods at all, just sufficiently powerful daemons.
Magnus: this was the guy who, in his expert opinion, also thought he was pretty much the total master of the Warp. I would think his hubris (one of his defining features) would distort his view of things, much like Lorgar and his bias towards wanting to believe that there are gods.
Ahriman: on what basis does he think he can kill a god? He's also from the very Legion that thought reckless use of sorcery was a good idea, so like with Magnus I would think his view of the Warp is...distorted.
As an aside, in the words of Lorgar from The First Heretic:
Originally Posted by Lorgar
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2014-02-12, 08:05 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40k Fluff Thread VIII: "Khorne's Most Favourite Thread EVER"
As I recall the Emperor told Horus that daemons are another kind of alien, they just come from another dimension rather than another world and as such don't play by our rules.
Sanity is nice to visit, but I wouldn't want to live there.
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2014-02-12, 09:21 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40k Fluff Thread VIII: "Khorne's Most Favourite Thread EVER"
Yeah, but The Big E is dead and the other 3 are dirty traitors, can't take any of their words at face value. Or are you secretly the Emperor, trying to convince us that there's no such thing as sorcery/gods/daemons to weaken the mighty powers of chaos?
I thought that each lord of change and even the lesser daemons were basically just a manifestation of their patron self. Ie, each lord of change is a facet of Tzeentch, with LoC's being much stronger manifestations, or at least a greater coelecence, than something like horrors.
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2014-02-12, 09:23 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40k Fluff Thread VIII: "Khorne's Most Favourite Thread EVER"
Sanity is nice to visit, but I wouldn't want to live there.
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2014-02-12, 09:29 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40k Fluff Thread VIII: "Khorne's Most Favourite Thread EVER"
Well...Obviously. About now is the time I rise up with my pals who I've gengineered; John Grammaticus and Oll Persson, and the other Eternals, and using my Biology training and access to pathogen labs, according to history, I need to start the Thunder Warrior project, like, yesterday.
...Soon...
I thought that each lord of change and even the lesser daemons were basically just a manifestation of their patron self.
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2014-02-12, 09:55 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40k Fluff Thread VIII: "Khorne's Most Favourite Thread EVER"
So the 40K books and games are just some experiment you're running to get an idea as to how people will respond to the future you plan to bring about. Genius
Just one small word of advice your Majesty if there's one thing you should learn from this, its that you will need to talk to your sons more
In the grim darkness of the future THERE IS ONLY WAR ! When what there needs to be is family counsellingLast edited by comicshorse; 2014-02-12 at 10:05 AM.
All Comicshorse's posts come with the advisor : This is just my opinion any difficulties arising from implementing my ideas are your own problem
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2014-02-12, 11:07 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40k Fluff Thread VIII: "Khorne's Most Favourite Thread EVER"
NOW COMPLETE: Let's Play Starcraft II Trilogy:
Hell, It's About Time: Wings of Liberty
Does This Mutation Make Me Look Fat: Heart of the Swarm
My Life For Aiur? I Barely Know 'Er: Legacy of the Void
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2014-02-12, 12:24 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40k Fluff Thread VIII: "Khorne's Most Favourite Thread EVER"
Sooo, you first say that there's no magic, and then say there's countless things science can't explain. I'm afraid you're contradicing yourself there.
Also, it's a pretty well known fact that the emprah ordered certain kind of tech to be destroyed in sight, in particular advanced AIs.
Well, going by the scientific method, the chaos gods are unkillable. They didn't get killed so far at least. Khaine the eldar god of war couldn't be killed either, neither did the C'tans. You can break them into many little pieces, but they still won't die.
Being all-powerful isn't a valid prerequisite, because JC God cannot create a stone so heavy he/she/it him/her/itself couldn't lift, thus he/she/it's not all-powerful, and thus neither the chaos gods need to be (mind you, they can do stuff that nobody else comes close to, like ressurecting people at will)
Being all-knowing is quite possible. They just happen to be all insane and obsessive-compulsive with stuff. Khorne is obsessed with war, thus he needs to make sure he has enemies. Tzenceht can't go whitout scheming, and thus also needs people he can scheme against. Nurgle needs people to be alive and well before he can rot them. And Slanesh of course needs fresh beings to slaneshifi all the time.Last edited by deuterio12; 2014-02-12 at 12:25 PM.
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2014-02-12, 09:17 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40k Fluff Thread VIII: "Khorne's Most Favourite Thread EVER"
I realised that when the first person called me out on it.
What I meant was, there is nomagicsorcery because the Emperor really, really, really doesn't want you using it.
So, when the Emperor says "There's no magic or Gods." what he's trying to do is keep people in ignorance so they don't go messing with the Warp. Now, there ismagicSorcery. But, there are at least two major scholars in the 'verse who say there a no Gods as well.
in particular advanced AIs.
Well, going by the scientific method, the chaos gods are unkillable.
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2014-02-13, 05:45 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40k Fluff Thread VIII: "Khorne's Most Favourite Thread EVER"
Not for the Judeo-Christian God. It doesn't matter what we, IRL, think. What matters is what the people who are considered 'experts' on the subject think. Magnus and Ahriman, the two characters in a position to know such things, both agree that there are no Gods. This is the metaphysics of the setting.So, when the Emperor says "There's no magic or Gods." what he's trying to do is keep people in ignorance so they don't go messing with the Warp. Now, there is magic Sorcery. But, there are at least two major scholars in the 'verse who say there a no Gods as well.thnx to Starwoof for the fine avatar
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2014-02-13, 06:29 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40k Fluff Thread VIII: "Khorne's Most Favourite Thread EVER"
Recent Homebrew: The Socialite | The Crystalline: Memory Altering Construct Race | Sanguine Hand, a ToB Discipline of blood and cruelty
Homebrew Signature | NEW Homebrew Collection
Thanks to all my avatar artists, especially to Paisley for my avatar of Vivian, cowardly cryophoenix.
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2014-02-13, 06:35 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40k Fluff Thread VIII: "Khorne's Most Favourite Thread EVER"
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2014-02-13, 06:48 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40k Fluff Thread VIII: "Khorne's Most Favourite Thread EVER"
I love it. xD
Recent Homebrew: The Socialite | The Crystalline: Memory Altering Construct Race | Sanguine Hand, a ToB Discipline of blood and cruelty
Homebrew Signature | NEW Homebrew Collection
Thanks to all my avatar artists, especially to Paisley for my avatar of Vivian, cowardly cryophoenix.