Warhammer 40k Fluff Thread VIII: "Khorne's Most Favourite Thread EVER"

[comicshorse]

" It's fading. Give me 25mm of fluff. Stat !"

[shadow_archmagi]

Just finished Know No Fear. I quite enjoyed it.

I think I might like Ultramarines now.

[Wraith]

That they are supposedly written as the "follow the Codex Astartes religiously and to the very letter" Chapter while each and every one of their special characters are super-unique snowflakes that steal gimmicks which rightly belong to other Chapters is the worst thing about them.

I've stated it before and I'll stand by it right now; There is absolutely nothing wrong with the Ultramarines Legion, nor even the Chapter. Just the way in which their Special Characters are portrayed tries to have their hat and eat it.... so to speak.

[shadow_archmagi]

That they are supposedly written as the "follow the Codex Astartes religiously and to the very letter" Chapter while each and every one of their special characters are super-unique snowflakes that steal gimmicks which rightly belong to other Chapters is the worst thing about them.

I've stated it before and I'll stand by it right now; There is absolutely nothing wrong with the Ultramarines Legion, nor even the Chapter. Just the way in which their Special Characters are portrayed tries to have their hat and eat it.... so to speak.

I can't speak to other books, but that didn't really seem to happen much in Know No Fear (Dan Abnett, naturally).

It felt like most of the time their Chapter Trait was "thinks about stuff" and their lead characters were generally pragmatic.

I do remember starting the Ultramarines Omnibus where that exact scenario happens. If I remember right, Captain Protagonist has his assault marines charge a heavy gun emplacement, and his superiors rebuke him for being a loose cannon, and he responds that the thrill of charging into danger boosts morale enough to justify the risk, then later they're all like "oh nooo we can't blow up the bridge because the DETONATOR got damaged!" and he's like "MACGUYVER SAYS PLASMA BLOWS THINGS UP" and shoots the bomb or something proving that his loose cannon ways are valuable.

[bluntpencil]

That they are supposedly written as the "follow the Codex Astartes religiously and to the very letter" Chapter while each and every one of their special characters are super-unique snowflakes that steal gimmicks which rightly belong to other Chapters is the worst thing about them.

I've stated it before and I'll stand by it right now; There is absolutely nothing wrong with the Ultramarines Legion, nor even the Chapter. Just the way in which their Special Characters are portrayed tries to have their hat and eat it.... so to speak.

Yeah, I'd like to see more examples of their characters showing why the Codex is awesome.

"According to Sun Tzu Roboute Guilliman, following the interpretation seen in The Treatise on Attila, we should strike at their artillery with a mounted assault, fading away before they can bring their countermeasures to bear, as our intelligence suggests they are more than capable of."

[Brother Oni]

I do remember starting the Ultramarines Omnibus where that exact scenario happens. If I remember right, Captain Protagonist has his assault marines charge a heavy gun emplacement, and his superiors rebuke him for being a loose cannon, and he responds that the thrill of charging into danger boosts morale enough to justify the risk, then later they're all like "oh nooo we can't blow up the bridge because the DETONATOR got damaged!" and he's like "MACGUYVER SAYS PLASMA BLOWS THINGS UP" and shoots the bomb or something proving that his loose cannon ways are valuable.

It also happens in the Space Marine game with Captain Titus, who admonishes the actual by-the-Codex newly promoted battle brother about having a too strict interpretation of the Codex.

At least it has the grace to be set in an alternate continuity though, not to mention it has a suitably 40K-esque ending.

[GolemsVoice]

Eh, I saw the game as an AFFIRMATION of the codex. It teaches Space Marines everthing they need to know, it does not teach them how to think in every single situation that ever exists. Rather, it gives a Space Marine the tactical knowledge to react to any situation with a background of knowledge.

That's why literally sticking to the Codex is a newbie's mistake who has not yet learned to use the knowledge in battle.

[comicshorse]

I'm fine with that its 'the Codex is god' stuff that annoys me. In 'Age of Darkness' it has a short story about the Ultramarines introducing the Codex and a scene where they are fighting a battle by the Codex, the commander can't understand what he's doing, none of his subordinates understand it but they just do things parrot fashion and everything turns out fine

[Cheesegear]

Just the way in which their Special Characters are portrayed tries to have their hat and eat it.... so to speak.

I'm not quite certain what you mean. As far as the 6th Ed. Codex is concerned, none of the Ultramarines' Characters are stealing the spotlight from any other Chapter. Sicarius is pretty much perfect at what he's designed for. I think nearly all the problems that most people have with Ultramarines have evaporated with the 6th Ed. Codex, now, Ultramarines aren't exactly super-special-awesome. Also, given the straits that GW is in right now, that may not have been such a good move.

I also like Deathwatch's portrayal of Ultramarines. Ultramarines can do anything, but they can't do everything.

[GolemsVoice]

In what straits IS Games Workshop?

[The Glyphstone]

Raking in money hand over fist and raising the prices on a regular basis as always?

[Cheesegear]

In what straits IS Games Workshop?

Really? You don't know?

-24% sales drop.
-30% stock drop.

Discussion for why has been discussed over in the 'real' 40K Thread, also, generally a topic to avoid since everywhere else on the internet has turned into the GW Hate-train, which isn't necessary.

[Brother Oni]

Really? You don't know?

-24% sales drop.
-30% stock drop.

Discussion for why has been discussed over in the 'real' 40K Thread, also, generally a topic to avoid since everywhere else on the internet has turned into the GW Hate-train, which isn't necessary.

Link for the curious, starting from post 904.

[Wraith]

I'm not quite certain what you mean. As far as the 6th Ed. Codex is concerned, none of the Ultramarines' Characters are stealing the spotlight from any other Chapter. Sicarius is pretty much perfect at what he's designed for. I think nearly all the problems that most people have with Ultramarines have evaporated with the 6th Ed. Codex, now, Ultramarines aren't exactly super-special-awesome.

I also like Deathwatch's portrayal of Ultramarines. Ultramarines can do anything, but they can't do everything.

It's a fluff thing, not crunch. The current Codex stats them all very well, but I've never been able to agree that any of the characters' fluff wouldn't be better suited to another Chapter.

Marneus Calgar is implacable, a master of his emotions and the swaying tide of battle. He would not be out of place in the Imperial Fists Chapter, given their own stalwart and implacable preferences.

Captain Sicarius is the greatest swordsman in the Imperium, duelling with the Enemies' greatest champions. Which sounds like everything the Emperor's Champion should be.

Chaplain Cassius is ridiculously old and "can remember when even the most ancient Dreadnoughts were flesh and blood". Word for word, how Blood Angels tend to be and a copy of Commander Dante's schtick. He's also a virtually indestructible Chaplain, which is more than an echo of Grimaldus.

Telion is also stupidly old, but is also the most accomplished scout ever. Something you might expect to see in the Raven Guard, since that's kinda what they do and all?

Sergeant Chronus does nothing but ride about on a Tank and prove how good he is at commanding a vehicle - White Scars? - while at the same time using his technical knowledge to make it extremely hard to destroy. The latter is almost unforgivable since the Iron Hands have gone 3 editions without any kind of special character of their own, and especially since you have to pay extra for the supplement that carries them.

Tigurius gets a pass. Being the Imperium's most powerful (Fluff: non-Grey Knight?) Psyker isn't something that any one Chapter seems to lay claim to, although one might take issue with the fact that if anyone were going to obey the Councel of Nikea it'd be the Ultramarines. Similarly, this role is kind of how Mephiston is portrayed in many ways, even if the crunch doesn't support it.

See where I'm coming from?
I agree that I like the of the 'Jack of all trades' way that you describe from Deathwatch, and would very much prefer to see that being the canon way that Ultramarines were portrayed rather than the inflexible Codex-bashers that many people see them as.
And yet, they're better swordsmen than the Black Templars, better scouts than the Raven Guard, better mechanics/pilots than the White Scars and Iron Hands combined, which has been around a lot longer than just 6th Edition. For some reason they CAN do everything, and they can do it better than you.

This is why I really liked the portrayal of Titus and his conflict with Leandros. Leandros is the stereotype that many players see, the narrow-minded, rote-learned jerk with no imagination, whereas Titus justifies the Codex as being a guide and a stepping off point, not the be all and end all of military tactics.
Leandros reads the book and becomes well versed in other peoples' teachings, but Titus learns to think like the people who wrote the book and examine their deeper meanings, which is why he is the hero and why I see the 'successful' Ultramarines being more like him - being genuinely tactically flexible, not just able to memorize big passages of text and copy other peoples' examples - even though it fails to be portrayed in Codex Space Marines.

tl;dr - Titus should be an Ultramarine special character in Codex Space Marines, and the other guys should be spread more evenly through the other Chapters.

[Cheesegear]

Marneus Calgar is implacable, a master of his emotions and the swaying tide of battle. He would not be out of place in the Imperial Fists Chapter, given their own stalwart and implacable preferences.

Fairly certain that that's pretty much a requirement for all Chapter Masters. The other problem, is that Sentinels of Terra kills off Vladamir Pugh, the IFCM who is like that, and replaces them with someone who's not Pugh.

Captain Sicarius is the greatest swordsman in the Imperium

In the entire Imperium? Source? He's one of the finest tacticians in the Ultramarines Chapter (which, is their shtick), and he's a really, really, really good Swordsman...In the Ultramarines Chapter. Quite literally, above Sicarius has to sit the Chapter Champion.

...And it's also a fact that the finest Swordsman of the Imperium is generally a Marine out of one of the Imperial Fist successors who has won Feast of Blades.

Chaplain Cassius is ridiculously old and "can remember when even the most ancient Dreadnoughts were flesh and blood". Word for word

You claim word for word.
"...oldest living member of the Ultramarines and even remembers times when some of the Chapter's most ancient Dreadnoughts fought as warriors of flesh and blood."

Emphasis mine. Second, there always has to be an 'oldest member of the Chapter'. Why not Cassius? Why not the Master of Sanctity, who is meant to be any Chapter's most wisest person?

how Blood Angels tend to be and a copy of Commander Dante's schtick.

Yet Lysander also remembers stuff from 2,000 years ago.

Telion is also stupidly old, but is also the most accomplished scout ever. Something you might expect to see in the Raven Guard, since that's kinda what they do and all?

He's actually a copy of Sergeant Naaman. And that does suck.

although one might take issue with the fact that if anyone were going to obey the Councel of Nikea it'd be the Ultramarines.

Ultramarines fought the Word Bearers, they had to break the Nikean Decree. The last Legion to break the Nikean Decree was the Imperial Fists...A whole bunch of them were not happy about the idea, they even broke off and formed their own super-cool club of black-armoured warriors because Dorn was no longer cool enough to be Dorn.

I agree that I like the of the 'Jack of all trades' way that you describe from Deathwatch, and would very much prefer to see that being the canon way that Ultramarines were portrayed rather than the inflexible Codex-bashers that many people see them as.

Except that they're not Jacks. They're the same as anyone else. They have Tactics (Any), except, specialising in more than one or two Tactics is basically shooting yourself in the foot. So, like I said, an Ultramarine can specialise in anything, but, like most, he can only specialise in one thing. The defining difference is that the Ultramarine can choose what he specialises in.

Of course, by the time you've reached Rank 6 (Captain level), you actually do have a bit of extra XP to throw around to pick up extra Tactics.

And yet, they're better swordsmen than the Black Templars, better scouts than the Raven Guard, better mechanics/pilots than the White Scars and Iron Hands combined

Even then, each of the people you described are only one Marine in a Chapter. Not a Chapter as a whole. The difference is that Ultramarines get novels written about them.

Logic simply dictates that the Raven Guard's Scout Captain (or one of the Sergeants) has to be amazing. But we don't get that story, because, frankly, the 'Everyman' Chapter just sells more models.

Like I said before, every Chapter is going to have one guy who is really good at one thing. However, as per Deathwatch, my personal headcanon is simply each of the 10 Captains is just really good at one, two or three things, and when a situation calls for the thing that a Captain is good at, Calgar can send the Captain whose turn it was to memorise that portion of the Codex.

So, no. Ultramarines as a Chapter, are not 'good at everything', however, an Ultramarine as an individual, can be really good at something, and therefore he has to deal with that problem.

An Imperial Fist is good at Siegecraft.
An Ultramarine can be good at Siegecraft, if he wants to be. Or he can be good at Stealth, if he wants to be. But he can't be both. People need to learn this. An Ultramarine is not good at everything. An Ultramarine is not even a 'jack-of-all-trades'.

See the difference?

The other thing is that Ultramarines are generally autonomous. They do this by memorising the Codex. They also trust that their brother has also memorised the Codex, and will act appropriately. When an Ultramarine goes off-script - literally - it screws it up for his Bros because he's not supposed to be doing that which can screw up the entire battle because that wasn't the plan.

Ultramarines follow their superior officers, and then get really poopy when they're not the CO because they can't do what they want. Essentially, Ultramarines follow Chain of Command - which makes absolute sense. The thing that makes Ultramarines jerks (which is canon, btw), is that they do not make exceptions for when the CoC can't be followed.

[Hazzardevil]

Link for the curious, starting from post 904.

Apparently their stock prices have been dropping for nearly a decade now. I think they make up for less sales and stock price dropping by having higher prices.

[bluntpencil]

Do note that, in Deathwatch, there is some precedent for using Scholastic Lore: Codex Astartes to have similar effects to Tactics (Whatever), but usually at a penalty.

[Borgh]

An Imperial Fist is good at Siegecraft.
An Ultramarine can be good at Siegecraft, if he wants to be. Or he can be good at Stealth, if he wants to be. But he can't be both. People need to learn this. An Ultramarine is not good at everything. An Ultramarine is not even a 'jack-of-all-trades'.

(at Utramarines war HQ, Captain Whatshisnamus speaks)
Okay, volunteers please step forward! We need people to breach that fortress over there!
(three guys step forward)
Steve! you too! I know you studied Demolishers last week!
ah well, I can work with this.

(At Fists war HQ, Captain Wassisdeinname speaks)
Okay, first five squads! You go take that fortress over there! I know you can do it! Other five squads, I need someone infiltrate the sewer and not be bright yellow!
(awkward shuffling of feet)
Okay, we'll just take the company once we are done with the fortress.

[shadow_archmagi]

(at Utramarines war HQ, Captain Whatshisnamus speaks)
Okay, volunteers please step forward! We need people to breach that fortress over there!
(three guys step forward)
Steve! you too! I know you studied Demolishers last week!
ah well, I can work with this.

(At Fists war HQ, Captain Wassisdeinname speaks)
Okay, first five squads! You go take that fortress over there! I know you can do it! Other five squads, I need someone infiltrate the sewer and not be bright yellow!
(awkward shuffling of feet)
Okay, we'll just take the company once we are done with the fortress.

To be fair, for infiltrating a sewer, bright yellow wouldn't be the WORST color...

Also I'm pretty sure that snipers and saboteurs are part of siege warfare, so the fists would have SOME sneaky jerks, just not as many as, say, the Raven Ravens.

[bluntpencil]

The war game seems to lean towards Ultramarines being all rounders, with their flexible Chapter tactics, whereas Fists seem to specialise in either boltguns or anti tank/demolitions.

Fists are Codex, like Ultras, but seem to apply it in a specialised fashion, whereas Ultras go for all round flexibility.

[Cheesegear]

Fists are Codex, like Ultras, but seem to apply it in a specialised fashion, whereas Ultras go for all round flexibility.

All Loyalist Chapters save the Space Wolves follow the Codex. However, each Chapter, according to their traditions, homeworld or history have adapted the Codex to suit themselves.

White Scars keep up their Bike training.
Blood Angels keep up their Jump training.

Neither of these Chapters ignore the Codex, however, should the need arise, they have more Jump or Bike troops should they require it. Rather than packing up going home.

Imperial Fists follow the Codex, until they don't. Generally speaking, you shouldn't need to do anything except shoot stuff with guns. If the stuff you're shooting at doesn't fall down; Your gun isn't big enough. Why bother with stealth if you have tactical Nukes at your disposal? Stealth seems like a waste of time, no?

Dark Angels swapped their 2nd and 6th Companies around. That's about it.

Raven Guard, Salamanders and Iron Hands all got obliterated at Istvaan, so when Girlyman wrote up his Codex, the RG, Sallies and IHs didn't have the numbers to make all the tactics presented feasible. Raven Guard made up for lack of numbers by choosing their battles and stealth, Iron Hands decided to armour-up and cut off their hands.

Sallies couldn't make up the numbers. But followed the Codex anyway. This doesn't work very well since Sallies don't have the numbers that Ultramarines do. However, any Salamander who doesn't die, ends up being tougher and smarter than the average Marine from another Chapter. Their legendary toughness also comes from their high-grav homeworld.

[The Glyphstone]

And Black Templars? They're about as compliant as the Space Wolves, or would be if you could get them all to hold still in one place long enough to do a head count.

[Cheesegear]

And Black Templars?

Second Founding Chapters aren't real Chapters.

But, I did try to find a reference to Codex compliance (or lack thereof) in the 6th Ed. Codex, and this is what I found instead;

"Many time in its glorious history, the Black Templars have gone to war alongside the the devout Battle Sisters of the Adepta Sororitas, and a complex web of mutual obligation and honour has evolved." - pg 51

Then why are they Desperate Allies, GW? Huh!? Why!?

[shadow_archmagi]

So, of the primarchs, we have... two that are 100% [REDACTED], seven that are missing/sleeping, six that are daemon princes, and five that are just plain dead?



Also, Space Marines are better than Eldar in all respects except for the number of psykers in their ranks?

[The Glyphstone]

So, of the primarchs, we have... two that are 100% [REDACTED], seven that are missing/sleeping, six that are daemon princes, and five that are just plain dead?



Also, Space Marines are better than Eldar in all respects except for the number of psykers in their ranks?

Eldar are supposed to be absurdly, inhumanly agile, but other than that, yes. An individual Eldar isn't usually physically imposing barehanded, it's their psychic prowess and super-tech that makes them dangerous. Also, tons of experience - they're not immortal, but pretty darn close to it, and even after they die their expertise can still be tapped/consulting via Aspect Armor and Spirit Stones.

[comicshorse]

So, of the primarchs, we have... two that are 100% [REDACTED], seven that are missing/sleeping, six that are daemon princes, and five that are just plain dead?

Horus, Curze, Manus and Sanginius. I thought Vulkan and Alpharius's fates were still unknown

[lord_khaine]

Eldar are supposed to be absurdly, inhumanly agile, but other than that, yes. An individual Eldar isn't usually physically imposing barehanded, it's their psychic prowess and super-tech that makes them dangerous. Also, tons of experience - they're not immortal, but pretty darn close to it, and even after they die their expertise can still be tapped/consulting via Aspect Armor and Spirit Stones.

They are also able to immense themself much deeper into a given area of study, giving them a huge edge in martrial skill compared to regular humans.

Though its only Exarch armor that allows the bearer to draw upon the experiences of the previous wearers, because they become part of a psychic gestalt.

Still.. spirit stones is indeed a thing, meaning that dead Eldars are generally much more dangerous than the living ones, since a Wraithguard is strong enough to club a space marine to death with his own bolter, while being tough enough to shrug off bolters and light anti-tank rounds.

[Wraith]

Horus, Curze, Manus and Sanginius. I thought Vulkan and Alpharius's fates were still unknown

Alpharius is, from all given sources, dead.

His brother Omegron, however, is alive and well.... Somewhere. Although given the nature of the Alpha Legion, it may not matter all that much...

[bluntpencil]

They are also able to immense themself much deeper into a given area of study, giving them a huge edge in martrial skill compared to regular humans.

Though its only Exarch armor that allows the bearer to draw upon the experiences of the previous wearers, because they become part of a psychic gestalt.

Still.. spirit stones is indeed a thing, meaning that dead Eldars are generally much more dangerous than the living ones, since a Wraithguard is strong enough to club a space marine to death with his own bolter, while being tough enough to shrug off bolters and light anti-tank rounds.

Wraith units have nothing on Dreadnoughts!

[Kris Strife]

Wraith units have nothing on Dreadnoughts!

Elegance of design?