Warhammer 40k Fluff Thread VIII: "Khorne's Most Favourite Thread EVER"

[Cheesegear]

I think there was a passage in one of Corax's books that tried to play up the "Kurze = Corax if he goes evil", but I'm not 100% sure.

I guess what sticks in my mind the entire short story - The Dark King - dedicated to Dorn's musings how Curze is a perversion of everything Dorn holds dear, and the only thing that Dorn is afraid of, in the entire galaxy, is Curze, or becoming like Curze.

[Drasius]

I think there was a passage in one of Corax's books that tried to play up the "Kurze = Corax if he goes evil", but I'm not 100% sure.



In that case, see if you can track down a copy of Shadows of Treachery and read The Prince of Crows that lies within. It's 90% about the Night Lords 1st Captain, Jago Sevatarion, but it also contains a passage detailing how Kurze went about purging Nostramo, then becoming its ruler (and, most importantly, how Nostramo turned out under Kurze's rule and Kurze's own reaction to it. Pro tip: it sheds a great deal of light on his character).

Aye, 'Tis what I was remembering, from Deliverance Lost IIRC.

Thank you 13_CBS, will try and hunt a copy down (though I could have sworn I've got one sitting around somewhere, I've got lots of stuff I haven't read in ages).

[Brother Oni]

On a different note, I've recently excavated my copy of the 3rd Edition Tau Codex that I bought a long, long time ago.

I know the rules are ridiculously out of date, but I was wondering did that apply to the fluff as well?

[shadow_archmagi]

On a different note, I've recently excavated my copy of the 3rd Edition Tau Codex that I bought a long, long time ago.

I know the rules are ridiculously out of date, but I was wondering did that apply to the fluff as well?

I don't think the fluff has changed too much. I haven't read the 3rd edition codex though, so I'll be excited to see what differences there actually are!

For all I know, 3rd edition tau were red and angry.

[Brother Oni]

I don't think the fluff has changed too much. I haven't read the 3rd edition codex though, so I'll be excited to see what differences there actually are!

For all I know, 3rd edition tau were red and angry.

I haven't read any fluff on the Tau since this Codex aside from DoW (which is of dubious canonicity) and the various memes, so I couldn't tell you how much it's changed.

The fluff only mentions the Damocles Crusade and that the Tau are currently not really involved in fighting anybody, feral orks aside. Hivefleet Gorgon hasn't turned up yet, so it's pre 899.M41.

Only auxiliaries they had were the kroot, no vespids, converted humans or other exotics yet. Only three Crisis suits available (XV8, XV15 and XV88) and vehicle wise, all they had were drones, Devilfish and Hammerheads.

Aside from some hinting that Commander Farsight had gone a little bananas before disappearing off the grid, they seemed to be walking embodiments of the Space Communist 'For the Greater Good' good guys that /tg makes them out to be.
No behind the scenes sterilisation of troublesome populations or re-education camps at all.

[shadow_archmagi]

I haven't read any fluff on the Tau since this Codex aside from DoW (which is of dubious canonicity) and the various memes, so I couldn't tell you how much it's changed.

The fluff only mentions the Damocles Crusade and that the Tau are currently not really involved in fighting anybody, feral orks aside. Hivefleet Gorgon hasn't turned up yet, so it's pre 899.M41.

Only auxiliaries they had were the kroot, no vespids, converted humans or other exotics yet. Only three Crisis suits available (XV8, XV15 and XV88) and vehicle wise, all they had were drones, Devilfish and Hammerheads.

Aside from some hinting that Commander Farsight had gone a little bananas before disappearing off the grid, they seemed to be walking embodiments of the Space Communist 'For the Greater Good' good guys that /tg makes them out to be.
No behind the scenes sterilisation of troublesome populations or re-education camps at all.

As far as I can tell, the most recent codex is much the same.

[LansXero]

So, just got done reading Scars

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Whoa. Never thought the White Scars would be so cool.

Didnt expect Russ to admit going to Prospero was a mistake either.

And what was that about Mortarion being the Khan-s nemesis now Didnt see that one coming.

All in all, while not too plot heavy, it was a very good book.

[blueblade]

So, just got done reading Scars

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Whoa. Never thought the White Scars would be so cool.

Didnt expect Russ to admit going to Prospero was a mistake either.

And what was that about Mortarion being the Khan-s nemesis now Didnt see that one coming.

All in all, while not too plot heavy, it was a very good book.

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Enjoyable yes. And could never have too much plot impact I suppose, given how minor their role was in the HH canon. But there were some great conversations with Magnus that had me scratching my head. Can't remember the detail now, but lots about the original purpose and intent of the Primarchs, which the fanboy in me very much enjoys!

[LansXero]

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Enjoyable yes. And could never have too much plot impact I suppose, given how minor their role was in the HH canon. But there were some great conversations with Magnus that had me scratching my head. Can't remember the detail now, but lots about the original purpose and intent of the Primarchs, which the fanboy in me very much enjoys!

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Oh yeah, the whole bit with Magnus knowing the Emperor's name (so he DOES have a name now!) and Fulgrim being meant to have lived the Khan's life, and it having been changed at the last moment (probably by Slaanesh). And that bit about Russ, and all the Space Wolves, being unnatural abominations who need to rune and totem up to escape from themselves.

Also, Arvida is now alive and well, so I guess the theory about Blood Ravens being a Loyalist Thousand Sons successor are stronger than ever.

What I didnt like is how they portrayed the Alpha Legion. They were basically a plot device, but whatever they wanted to accomplish didnt make much sense. At least, it gives a reason for why the wolves didnt show up sooner, since it hadnt been stated that they were so badly mangled after Prospero. Russ calling for help, that was new.

[Wraith]

I guess what sticks in my mind the entire short story - The Dark King - dedicated to Dorn's musings how Curze is a perversion of everything Dorn holds dear, and the only thing that Dorn is afraid of, in the entire galaxy, is Curze, or becoming like Curze.

I'm a good 12 or 13 books into the Heresy now, and one of the things that I have been enjoying the most is how, unlike a lot of other sci-fi or fantasy series, the main characters never seem to have just one "evil opposite" for them to fight against and overcome - each of the seems to have Political and Thematic rivals as well as Thematic and Political 'mirrors'.

Horus Lupercal - Thematically his mirror is Guilleman, the 'favoured Son' and 'great leader' aspects in particular, but his actual rival is Rogal Dorn. Both are 'the Generals' and the military leaders of each respective sides.

Roubout Guilleman - As above, but also thematically with Lorgar as they are both the 'orators' of their respective sides. An interesting contrast is how Lorgar is ultimately to blame for the Heresy but Horus gets the blame, whereas Guilleman did his best to fix the Imperium and *he* gets the blame for the bits that don't work, anyway (particularly in the fandom )

Fulgrim - He mirrors Sanguinious, as both have the 'pretty' Legions and is the thematic opposite of both Mortarion and Ferrus Mannus, both of whom are the harsh and pragmatic to his more gentle artistry and yet he then separately holds them in different regards.

Night Haunter - He is the 'evil twin' of Corvus Corax, both sharing similarly origins and methodology but having wildly different points of view, and both of them are rivals of Alpharius in the sense of their interpretations of a 'stealth and guile' battle doctrine.

It's not an exhaustive list by far, and no doubt there will always be an argument about who is the direct equivalent/enemy of who, but it's the intrigue that keeps me coming back.

=====

Having said that, I'm into Fear To Tread now. It's one of the books that I have been looking forward to the most, after Flight of the Eisenstein, and I have to admit that I am royally sick and tired of the Space Wolves.

Someone in this thread earlier stated that Lorgar was the Mary Sue character of the setting, and it was justified in that he is the villain and he needs to have that extra 'edge' to make him unlikable.

The Space Wolves, however, really are the unjustified Mary Sues of the Warhammer 30k/40k universe - they keep turning up, being massive jerks to people who really ought to just rip their faces off but somehow getting away with it, blatantly defying Imperial standards of Enlightenment and Truth without censure, ignoring the Council of Nikea and receiving no reprimand because they say it's not sorcery but instead all part of their own superstitious belief (see above about defying Imperial Truth) and generally doing everything that all the Traitors and Heretics are said to do and are punished for.... and there's no comeuppance at all.

I wish they'd just go away. They've done Prospero, they got rid of the Thousand Sons, they've had a novel all to themselves and various cameos in the novels of other Legions about the same arcs, and their part in the Heresy is now officially over in so far as the critical plot point go.... So why do they keep turning up and getting in the way, when we're still waiting for a 'proper' story dedicated to the Iron Hands? Or the Iron Warriors? Or the Imperial Fists?

[Cheesegear]

one of the things that I have been enjoying the most is how, unlike a lot of other sci-fi or fantasy series, the main characters never seem to have just one "evil opposite" for them to fight against and overcome

In the beginning, both sides of the Heresy were superficially the same, it was designed like that. I like how the novel series has taken a 'that's dumb' approach and has fleshed it out a whole lot more.

The Lion
Thematic Opposite: Magnus
Actual Opposite: Perturabo, Horus

Jaghatai Khan
Thematic Opposite: Alpharius
Actual Opposite: ???
Haven't read Scars. Don't know.

Leman Russ
Thematic Opposite: Angron
Actual Opposite: Magnus

Rogal Dorn
Thematic: Perturabo
Actual: Horus, Curze

Sanguinius
Thematic: Fulgim
Actual: Horus

Ferrus Manus
Thematic: Mortarion
Actual: Fulgrim

Roboute Guilliman
Thematic: Horus
Actual: Lorgar

Vulkan
Thematic: Lorgar
Actual: Curze

Corax
Thematic: Curze
Actual: Alpharius

So why do they keep turning up and getting in the way, when we're still waiting for a 'proper' story dedicated to the Iron Hands? Or the Iron Warriors? Or the Imperial Fists?

Really, I'm getting annoyed that Curze just seems to 'fight all the Primarchs'. It's as if the writers can't think of a way for two Primarchs to fight until they get to the actual Battle for Terra. But, stick Curze in. He'll fight anyone. He also can't be beaten 'cause he just Batmans away.

...Yes. I used 'Batman' as a verb. Fight me.

[Wraith]

Jaghatai Khan
Thematic Opposite: Alpharius
Actual Opposite: ???
Haven't read Scars. Don't know.

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Alpharius goes into both slots, apparently - the Alpha Legion are the main antagonists of the book, as well as being into subterfuge and sleight-of-hand distractions whereas the White Scars are honest and forthright, seeing war more like sport and a form of artistic expression.

Which kinda makes sense - the Alpha Legion can have two enemies because they have two Primarchs, since it was actually Omegron that was doing all the hard work in Deliverance Lost.

...Yes. I used 'Batman' as a verb. Fight me.

You'll have to wait, I think it's Kurze's turn before mine.

[bluntpencil]

Couldn't Fulgrim be the Khan's thematic opposite? What with the artistry of war?

[Cheesegear]

Couldn't Fulgrim be the Khan's thematic opposite? What with the artistry of war?

He could be. If the original creators of the setting had been that subtle. But the comparisons between Fulgrim and Sanguinius being perfect super sexy pretty boys of their own sides was kind of the point. The 'artistry of war' is one of those personality clashes that would make Fulgrim a better 'evil opposite' for Khan. But, like I said, the original setting was not known for it's subtlety or character profiles.

[13_CBS]

The Space Wolves, however, really are the unjustified Mary Sues of the Warhammer 30k/40k universe - they keep turning up, being massive jerks to people who really ought to just rip their faces off but somehow getting away with it, blatantly defying Imperial standards of Enlightenment and Truth without censure, ignoring the Council of Nikea and receiving no reprimand because they say it's not sorcery but instead all part of their own superstitious belief (see above about defying Imperial Truth) and generally doing everything that all the Traitors and Heretics are said to do and are punished for.... and there's no comeuppance at all.

Do what you want 'cuz a Space Wolf is free!
You are a Space Wolf!
Woof! Woof! Fiddle-dee-dee!
Being a Space Wolf is alright with me!
Do what you want 'cuz a Space Wolf is free!
You are a Space Wolf!

[comicshorse]

Having said that, I'm into Fear To Tread now. It's one of the books that I have been looking forward to the most, after Flight of the Eisenstein, and I have to admit that I am royally sick and tired of the Space Wolves.

Someone in this thread earlier stated that Lorgar was the Mary Sue character of the setting, and it was justified in that he is the villain and he needs to have that extra 'edge' to make him unlikable.

The Space Wolves, however, really are the unjustified Mary Sues of the Warhammer 30k/40k universe - they keep turning up, being massive jerks to people who really ought to just rip their faces off but somehow getting away with it, blatantly defying Imperial standards of Enlightenment and Truth without censure, ignoring the Council of Nikea and receiving no reprimand because they say it's not sorcery but instead all part of their own superstitious belief (see above about defying Imperial Truth) and generally doing everything that all the Traitors and Heretics are said to do and are punished for.... and there's no comeuppance at all.

I wish they'd just go away. They've done Prospero, they got rid of the Thousand Sons, they've had a novel all to themselves and various cameos in the novels of other Legions about the same arcs, and their part in the Heresy is now officially over in so far as the critical plot point go.... So why do they keep turning up and getting in the way, when we're still waiting for a 'proper' story dedicated to the Iron Hands? Or the Iron Warriors? Or the Imperial Fists?

Strange how peoples views differ I'm fine with the Space Wolves but am getting teeth grindingly annoyed with the Mary Sue'ing (IMHO) of the Thousand Sons by Graham McNeil in the 'Thousand Sons' and especially in the 'Outcast Dead' which got so ridiculous I was forced to throw the book at the wall several times

[LansXero]

Doesnt Angel Exterminatus count as a book on Iron Warriors? It did flesh out a lot of Perturabo's personality.

Also, I thought the opposite of the Khan was

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Mortarion. As in, they actually spell it out when they fight, with both of them being the outriders, the forgotten sons, the ones away in the fringes, with the Khan embracing it and Mortarion resenting it.

[13_CBS]

Here's an interesting take on Dorn from a guy at Bolter & Chainsword.

[Cheesegear]

Here's an interesting take on Dorn from a guy at Bolter & Chainsword.

Three things are missing;

Dorn's reaction to Garro's news of the Heresy (i.e; punching him through a wall). I've heard a couple of complaints about this particular scene, as Dorn is way out of character, 'shooting the messenger', so to speak. Except that Dorn losing his **** is kind of the nail in the coffin. Dorn had denied all the prophecies, he's denied that his brothers (Curze) were evil and awful. But, now it's finally real. His brothers are defying the Emperor, in actuality, and that blows his mind. How could anyone possibly do that?

When Konrad attacks Dorn, Dorn doesn't fight back. The latter part of that sentence makes Konrad furious, and why Konrad ends up tearing Dorn apart (IIRC Curze also eats one of Dorn's hearts). Curze believes in punishment. Punishment solves all problems, and, if anyone can punish Curze, it's the Emperor's Praetorian, Dorn. Curze believes that he deserves to be punished. But, Dorn wont punish Curze, Dorn wants to redeem Curze. They can talk it out, Curze can be 'fixed'. And, just like the Emperor and Horus, Dorn gets brutalised for his belief that his Brother can be saved. Basically, it's Superman realising that for all his power, he can't save everyone. And Dorn is gutted - both literally and mentally.

Chewing out Sigismund, and the hammer-blow "You're no longer my son." Recent Imperial Fists fluff says that IFs have trouble controlling their emotions. That a mistake in their medulla, the organ in their brain that allows them battlefield compartmentalisation is faulty, and, that once an IF feels an emotion strongly, they can't 'turn it off' like a regular Marine. This is why IF's are portrayed as not having emotions, because of the huge amount of CBT (including the Pain Glove) that they use. This is why Dorn always has micro-expressions, because he controls himself. Sigismund loses his brain at the news of the Heresy, and wants to go out and smash everyone in face. Dorn tells him 'no.' The Fists stay on Terra. They prepare for battle. They plan. Sigismund needs to get on board. Sigismund says that's not a promise that he can keep. Dorn isn't mad. Just disappointed. Again, he expects the best of the people he loves, only to be let down, and turns his back Sigismund. Dorn can't rely on anyone except himself, it's not true, but he thinks it is, and it wrecks him.

[Platinius]

Dorn, the more I think about him, the more I realize that he is among the least generic of the Primarchs. Leman Russ, Horus, Sanguinius, Lorgar and so many more, to me they appear rather (arche)typical, thematised and popularized countless times in all forms of fiction. That is part of their initial appeal, but the more time and thought I spend on them the more I appreciate characters and writing that leave the beaten, paved, signed and illuminated paths.

[LansXero]

Dunno, Lorgar is a rather complex character, and even Sanguinius got quite a bit of depth in Angel Exterminatus. Horus on the other hand. . .

[Grim Portent]

Lorgar is the visionary lost in a world of war, the man of peace who must fight for his faith. Pity for him his faith was a lie.

My favorite primarchs are Perturabo, Magnus and Angron personally.

Magnus is the one I feel I can most identify with, he's motivated by love for his legion, a thirst for knowledge and his arrogance and pride. In his desire to save his sons he reached further than he could grasp and ultimately paid for it. But the thing is, even knowing the terms of the deal, what it cost him and the Imperium, I think I would have made it had I been in his place.

[Cheesegear]

Lorgar is the visionary lost in a world of war, the man of peace who must fight for his faith. Pity for him his faith was a lie.

His old faith was unwanted.
His new faith, however, is completely real.

[Grim Portent]

His old faith was unwanted.
His new faith, however, is completely real.

And now the bringer of peace has become the harbinger of war. Lorgar stood upon the brink of despair and cast his heart into shadow. He has become death, destroyer of worlds. Countless worlds have felt the spite of the first heretic, and until such day comes as the golden tyrant falls there will be no peace.

Of course both Lorgar and the Emperor are associated with the colour gold, so who am I referring to? You decide dear reader.

[13_CBS]

Of course both Lorgar and the Emperor are associated with the colour gold, so who am I referring to? You decide dear reader.

Incidentally, according to Erebus, out of all the primarchs Lorgar is said to look most like the Emperor.

[Wraith]

Dorn's reaction to Garro's news of the Heresy (i.e; punching him through a wall). I've heard a couple of complaints about this particular scene, as Dorn is way out of character, 'shooting the messenger', so to speak. Except that Dorn losing his **** is kind of the nail in the coffin. Dorn had denied all the prophecies, he's denied that his brothers (Curze) were evil and awful. But, now it's finally real. His brothers are defying the Emperor, in actuality, and that blows his mind. How could anyone possibly do that?

Complaints? I thought this was a great scene that really showed Dorn's true nature.

When forced to fight his brothers, Fulgrim wept. He pleaded. He bargained. He twisted and turned from the matter at hand, and offered everything he could to stop it, and when his hand was forced he was shown as weak and and fearful, and he gave in to the darkness.

When he learns of the Heresy, Ferrus Mannus rushed headstrong into the fray, fearless and independent, and perhaps too naive to ever suceed in a galaxy that had, all of a sudden, become much more jaded and much more dangerous.

When the Night Haunter realised what he had become, he ranted and raved and, delving deep into his reservoir of madness he threw himself at his brother, hoping to be killed rather than face a future of living with himself.

When Rogal Dorn learned of the Heresy, his heart was broken. His world had ended, his brothers were ripped from him, the closest thing he had to family, friends and peers were shattered without hope of repair.
So he punched one guy, once, and then he went to wage the greatest war that would ever be known against his own kin. That says a hell of a lot about the guy, doesn't it?

Incidentally, according to Erebus, out of all the primarchs Lorgar is said to look most like the Emperor.

Even more interesting is that the Emperor admits to Corax that he has "worn many faces" and to a great extent people look at him and see something of they want to see, rather than what might actually be there. It takes a great feat of will, and the knowledge that you actually need to be looking for it, to see his real face.

So arguably, to Erebus, it's the other way around: The Emperor looks a lot Lorgar. Which explains why his loyalties lie where they do, perhaps.

[deuterio12]

His old faith was unwanted.
His new faith, however, is completely real.

Unwanted? Why me, I could swear that the Imperium ended up with a full organization dedicated to worship of the immortal god-emperor with their personal army and a permanent seat with the Lords of Terra and everything.

"Hey, Logan, remember that whole civil war thing because the emprah didn't want to recognize religion? The Imperium ended up implementing religion as one of its core characteristics after all. Sure was worth all that destruction and sacrifice to try to prevent it!"

[Cheesegear]

Unwanted?

Yes, unwanted.

Lorgar: "Hey Dad, let me worship you!"
Emperor: "No."

That's kind of like, the entire reason for Lorgar's Fall - and that business with Guilliman.

[comicshorse]

You really can see Lorgar's point about the Emperor's hypocricy. Wether it was worth killing billions of people over it is another matter

[13_CBS]

Unwanted? Why me, I could swear that the Imperium ended up with a full organization dedicated to worship of the immortal god-emperor with their personal army and a permanent seat with the Lords of Terra and everything.

"Hey, Logan, remember that whole civil war thing because the emprah didn't want to recognize religion? The Imperium ended up implementing religion as one of its core characteristics after all. Sure was worth all that destruction and sacrifice to try to prevent it!"

Unwanted by the Emperor and anyone who believed in the Imperial Creed? Yes.

Unfortunately, too many people REALLY wanted to worship the Emperor.