My Little Gramarist: SCIENCE! is Magic [Gramarie Discussion]

[sirpercival]

The problem with an Athenian democracy is logistics. Collecting votes from a smaller number of active people is going to be much easier and faster than collecting from a large number of people, many of whom come and go.

I don't have a problem with a committee of, forex, 10 people, as long as those people are committed to giving prompt responses... but more than that is going to be very unwieldy.

Also, the larger the voting pool, the more likely one is to run into problems of conflicting balance points, thematic taste, etc.

[DMwithoutPC's]

I doubt that there are more then 10 people interested and knowledgable enough to be in the commity any how. 5 just seems... to small a group

[Milo v3]

I doubt that there are more then 10 people interested and knowledgable enough to be in the commity any how. 5 just seems... to small a group

How many do you suggest?

[Milo v3]

Double post but here is a draft of my revised ELDK 101:

Eldrikinetics

Spoiler

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"It might not look as classy as if it was bein' pulled by a bunchcha birds, but it's a thousand times more advanced."

Spoiler

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The nature of motion is one of the oldest problems of mankind; as a species we seem to be addicted to speed, and other humanoid races are no better. The ability to transport materials at high speeds and across great distances makes many amazing feats of civilization possible. Eldrikinetics is the study of magical principles which can create this movement using powerful thaumaturgical engines. An eldrikinetic ship scoffs at gravity!

Eldrikinetics typically makes use of predrawn sets of blueprints, schematics, and parametric drawings of various engines and vehicles. Other useful supplies include pendulums and springs to test various principles of motion. Any piece of equipment like this counts as masterwork, and provides a +2 circumstance bonus on the concentration check made to prepare an eldrikinetic principle. A particularly famous kinetic device is the Foucalt Pendulum, which is said to be able to control the motion of the earth itself.

Key Skill: Concentration


ELDK 101: Intro to Eldrikinetics
Grade: Baccalaureate
Prerequisites: None
Target: 1 cubic foot of material
Preparation Time: 1 hour

This principle transforms a mass of material into an eldrikinetic engine. An engine can generate a certain amount of Push, which is a kind of imparted momentum. Every engine has a particular kind of fuel which can be used to generate its Push, although all of them can also run off of pure puissance if they're hooked up to a circuit. An engine has four States of use; activated, charging, deactivated and overclocked. While activated an engine generates push by converting it’s stored push, it moves itself in a certain direction, and brings anything attached to it along for the ride. While charging, it takes fuel and ebbs in a highly efficient manner and coverts it into stored push. While deactivated, it stops producing push and starts to lose stored push at a fast rate to stop from damage occurring to the engine. While overclocked, it may use more stored push than it’s normal maximum at the cost of damaging the engine.

The state of an engine can be changed as a logical decision, or by spending a full-round action while in contact with the engine. Any individual in contact with an engine can also discern how much stored push is inside of it as a move action, with a successful concentration check (DC 15).

The primary method of gaining stored push is when the engine is in the charging state. While in this state, ebbs and fuel can be sent into it to create the amount of stored push listed in the engines description. An engine can hold a number of stored push at a time equal to the concentration check that was rolled during its creation multiplied by 500. While in the activated state it can also gain stored push, but only at half the efficiency.

If an engine enters the charging state when it already possesses stored push, it immediately loses that stored push and takes 1 point of damage per 50 push lost in this way.

When the engines state is activated, it converts an amount of stored push into push. The amount of stored push converted can be chosen as a standard action by anyone in contact with the engine or as a logical decision. Every engine has a limit on how much stored push it can convert into push a round, this is equal to the concentration check that was rolled during its creation multiplied by an engine’s Safety Score.

When an engine is deactivated, it harmlessly loses potential push at a rate of 100 per round, though it does not start to lose ebbs for 2 rounds after it becomes deactivated.

When the engines state is overclocked it functions as activated except, you can produce more push than its safety score would normally allow and it cannot gain stored push. This allows an engine to go much faster than it otherwise could, but the process damages the engine slowly. Every ten minutes an engine is overclocked it takes damage, to determine how much damage is dealt take the highest amount of push the engine has generated in the ten minute period, then consult the table below.

{table=head]Push|Damage
1% more than engine’s limit|1
25% more than engine’s limit|2
50% more than engine’s limit|4
75% more than engine’s limit|6
100% more than engine’s limit|8
+25%|+2[/table]

If an engine is destroyed from hit point damage while overclocked the Critical Failure effect detailed in the engines description occurs.

To determine how fast a structure moves from an activated or overclocked engine, you need two things: the magnitude of the push, and the Bulk rating of the object (excluding the engine). The bulk rating can be found from the following chart:

{table=head]Size Category|Bulk Rating
Fine|1
Diminutive|4
Tiny|14
Small|32
Medium|62
Large|110
Huge|170
Gargantuan|255
Colossal|365
Enormous|500
Immense|670
Behemothic|865
Cavernous|1100
Mountainous|1370
Vast|1690
Unusally heavy (stone, metal, etc)|x 2
Unusually light (cotton candy, paper, etc)|x 1/2[/table]

Determining the speed is the fun part, and is slightly more maths-requisite. Get a calculator! You divide the push generated by the bulk rating of the thing moving. Then round down. Multiply this value by 15 feet per round. Ta-da! You now have the speed your object moves every round. Control systems are relatively simple to install (DC 20 Knowledge [Architecture and Engineering] check) in order to steer the craft.

If two engines of the same type are physically joined, they can be combined into one engine with an additional preparation. Combined engines function as normal except; their hit points are combined and then shared with all other component engines, sending fuel or ebbs into any of the component engines can go to any engine of the user’s choice, and a single control system can control the direction of all component engines.

At a speed of 1,800ft. objects can now be considered as projectiles for ranged attacks (this speed is hereafter known as projectile speed). These objects deal damage based on their weight, as described in Complete Warrior. At a speed of 6,698ft. the speed of sound is broken, also known as mach 1. Similarly, mach 2 is a speed of 13,397ft. and mach 3 is a speed of 20,096ft.

Projectiles also deal additional damage based on their momentum; the faster an object goes, the more damage it deals. For every 1,000 ft. beyond projectile speed, a projectile deals an additional 1d6 damage of the same type as it typically deals.

At mach 1, objects are considered projectiles for ranged touch attacks. At mach 2, they also catch enemies flat-footed unless the target has uncanny dodge. At mach 3, they deal double their normal damage (including double the speed bonus damage), with the extra damage being sonic energy damage.

{table=head]Bulk Rating|Example Object|100 Push|200 Push|300 Push|400 Push|500 Push
0.5|Wood chip|Projectile|Projectile|Mach 1|Mach 1|Mach 2|Mach 3
1|Bullet|1,500ft.|Projectile|Projectile|Projectile |Mach 1|Mach 3
4|Arrow|360ft.|750ft.|1,110ft.|1,500ft.|Projectile |Mach 3
14|Spitoon|90ft.|210ft.|330ft.|420ft.|540ft.|Mach 2
32|Chest of drawers|30ft.|90ft.|120ft.|180ft.|210ft.|Mach 2
62|Human with a jetpack|-|30ft.|60ft.|90ft.|120ft.|Mach 1
110|Automotive|-|-|30ft.|30ft.|60ft.|Mach 1
170|Light aircraft|-|-|-|30ft.|30ft.|Mach 1
256|Pirate ship|-|-|-|-|-|Projectile
365|Tarrasque with a jetpack|-|-|-|-|-|900ft.
500|Small house|-|-|-|-|-|450ft.
670|Big house|-|-|-|-|-|240ft.
865|Temeraire|-|-|-|-|-|120ft.
1100|The Chrysler Building|-|-|-|-|-|60ft.
1370|The Hindenburg|-|-|-|-|-|30ft.
1690|Flying island fortress|-|-|-|-|-|30ft.[/table]


It should also be noted that an engine produces push (and, consequently, speed) which occurs in the space that the engine is inside. This means that the engine must have more than 50% of its volume inside of the dimension where it's producing its push.

This principle allows you to make the following engines:

• Ballistic: A ballistic engine uses bone as a fuel source and is made out of copper. Each pound of bone generates 3000 push, or 3 ebbs can be converted into 1000 push. Unlike most engines, a ballistic engine imparts its push to an object it's touching instead of to itself. The object is then launched at any angle the operator likes. This allows the engine to make actual ranged attacks with the object being launched if it is moving fast enough. Every time the engine is activated it generates a one-time burst, instead of sustained motion, then immediately enters the deactivated state.
  
  • Critical Failure: ?
  • Safety Score: ?
  
  
• Orthogonal: An orthogonal engine uses wood as a fuel source and is made out of iron. Each log generates 2000 push, or an ebb can be converted into 100 push. This engine pushes orthogonally to the gravity in the area, which means that it moves horizontally along whatever plane it is on.
  
  • Critical Failure: ?
  • Safety Score: ?

[qazzquimby]

Phone crashed just as I was posting last time, so lets try this again.

From the discussion on the irc, my opinion has changed somewhat. I think a councel would be effective for finalizing decisions, balancing delicate points, and generally keeping things moving. Everywhere else I think a public voice, made up of everyone interested and capable, would be better. Id also prefer ratings over votes, with 5 representing indifference (alternatively, just don't vote) and the magnitude away from 5 represents the rater's passion and confidence in the issue.

As for ELDK, I like everything, but would prefer the bulk ratings weren't changed, because the size number cubed made a lot of sense to me, and I'd been using bulk ratings elsewhere. Could you change push more instead?

[Milo v3]

As for ELDK, I like everything, but would prefer the bulk ratings weren't changed, because the size number cubed made a lot of sense to me, and I'd been using bulk ratings elsewhere. Could you change push more instead?

The I didn't realize the bulk rating were based on a formula, because I didn't notice from a quick glance and google didn't come up with anything. Though they are nearly exactly the same, just more... specific... and sometimes abit more range because I changed the 30 ft. to 15 ft. I could change it back though, just reduces engine speed abit....

Though push was increased, specifically doubled to account for "Original" push costs equaling it's rate of generating stored push while activated.

[Arcanist]

From the discussion on the irc, my opinion has changed somewhat. I think a councel would be effective for finalizing decisions, balancing delicate points, and generally keeping things moving. Everywhere else I think a public voice, made up of everyone interested and capable, would be better. Id also prefer ratings over votes, with 5 representing indifference (alternatively, just don't vote) and the magnitude away from 5 represents the rater's passion and confidence in the issue.

I was discussing with Fako the idea of a more republic style with more frequent elections taking place on the IRC after the implementation of a voting command.

9 Elected positions, symbolizing the first 9 disciplines of Gramarie. After a month of service, these positions are freed up to allow for election yet again. Individuals who served previously, cannot serve until after 2 months of their last service. These individuals must volunteer, although you may be nominated (again, not by a previous official). All new content is to be reviewed by the forum at large and then is to be placed in front of the committee after a week of discussions and revisions. After that, it is up to the committee to either decide if the material will be accepted as it is, or be sent back to be reviewed yet again.

You may not review your own material and I believe that there is global consensus on that. Unfortunately for me, I've developed the most material so I don't think I am best suited as a committee member

Spoiler: Council structure

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There are 9 positions that can be taken upon the council of Gramarie, each of them possessing voting power shared equally with each other councilor. Councilors are voted in by fellow forum goers in a democratic process on the IRC. Elections will take place at least once every 30 days, before the positions must be reset again, however aspiring councilors must meet the following prerequisites to qualify for their position:

• Cannot have held a position within the last 2 months.
• Must have developed at least one Gramarie related homebrew and had it obtained approval.
• Must be nominated by your peers.

Sitting on the council does NOT entitle you to be belittling to non-councilors members. You are working for THEM, not the other way around. You are also not allowed to vote on your own material. If, for whatever reason, you develop new material during your service, your material will be placed on a waiting list of material to be reviewed after your service is complete.

If you are unable to complete your duties, you may step down from your position and a runner up will take your position. Alternatively, you may be impeached by a 8 out of the other 9 councilors upon request by the forum. Thereafter, re-elections must be held immediately thereafter.

Sound fair?

[Milo v3]

I was discussing with Fako the idea of a more republic style with more frequent elections taking place on the IRC after the implementation of a voting command.

9 Elected positions, symbolizing the first 9 disciplines of Gramarie. After a month of service, these positions are freed up to allow for election yet again. Individuals who served previously, cannot serve until after 2 months of their last service. These individuals must volunteer, although you may be nominated (again, not by a previous official). All new content is to be reviewed by the forum at large and then is to be placed in front of the committee after a week of discussions and revisions. After that, it is up to the committee to either decide if the material will be accepted as it is, or be sent back to be reviewed yet again.

You may not review your own material and I believe that there is global consensus on that. Unfortunately for me, I've developed the most material so I don't think I am best suited as a committee member

Spoiler: Council structure

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Sound fair?

I disagree with this because I doubt there is enough trusted members of the community for there to be nine at once AND the rule of cannot serve until after 2 months of their last service.

[sirpercival]

I disagree with this because I doubt there is enough trusted members of the community for there to be nine at once AND the rule of cannot serve until after 2 months of their last service.

I was going to say exactly this. You'd need 27 active members to maintain this. It's also going to be a HUGE hassle to get enough voters every month to have that kind of turnover rate in general. Maybe if we were drawing on the entirety of MMX we'd have enough active people to make this worthwhile.

[qazzquimby]

That suggestion was made when he didn't understand the purpose, and has since been redacted. The latest decisionlike thing I was present for, the system should be written for 3.5 with pathfinder adaptation in a sidebar, wherever applicable.

[Milo v3]

That suggestion was made when he didn't understand the purpose, and has since been redacted. The latest decisionlike thing I was present for, the system should be written for 3.5 with pathfinder adaptation in a sidebar, wherever applicable.

Which I believe is mainly a compromise to accommodate for my whining

[qazzquimby]

I would like to request that important subjects adressed on the irc be posted here, so that more people can see them. Myself included since I'm currently too busy to be ircing for any length of time.

[Allnightmask]

Posting like a transcript or sparknotes about what happened in the chat? I second the motion. I can only haunt the chat every couple of days and only for a hour or two. I can't be sure what has been discussed.

[Milo v3]

Posting like a transcript or sparknotes about what happened in the chat? I second the motion. I can only haunt the chat every couple of days and only for a hour or two. I can't be sure what has been discussed.

I thought sparknotes was just for studying or something.

[Allnightmask]

Yeah, that's why I typed that.

[Milo v3]

Yeah, that's why I typed that.

I don't understand @_@

[sirpercival]

Hey qazz, a couple of issues with the Puissamanticist:

1. What happens with Puissance Routing, Puissance Reserve, Puissance Generation, and Vampiric Extraction when you don't have a Con score? What happens if your target for Vampiric Extraction is an undead or construct?

2. I'm not crazy with the idea of giving them both MilSci and a Specialization. It gives them much more effective access to a particular discipline than a gramarist or warmaker gets, even with a smaller pool of principles to draw from.

3. In general, I have an issue with the fact that it seems like you ran out of ideas and just decided to tack on a bunch of Warmaker stuff. Better BAB, better discipline access, specialization, and you keep MilSci and Arts of War... it's just flat-out encroaching on Warmaker's design space.

Personally, I would get rid of MilSci and Arts of War; I'd then allow either a choice of 5 disciplines (4 + PUIS), or a choice of 3 disciplines (2 + PUIS) and a specialization in one of them. I'd then give some kind of attack effects based on puissance routing and defense effects based on puissance storage (or something like that), to strengthen both the puissance theme and the striker role.

This class seems much more like it should be a military irregular than the standard soldier or general of a Warmaker. This is a specialized operative who sneaks into an enemy camp, wreaks havoc with all their gramaric setups, then draws on that havoc to rock face. Am I wrong?

[qazzquimby]

Dumping in warmaker abilities was suggested to flesh out the class. I would rather keep the arts of war though, since they add to the combat focus. I had previously considered giving both anima and aow, or maybe giving a choice. I would also like a way to to use spontaneous principles with weaponns, such as a projectile that prepares the principle on whatever it hits, but that might fit better with gramaric items. If it does I might add some interaction between the puissamanticist and the item system.

Sorry if there is anything important I didn't respond to, I'll answer again later when I'm on a better device.

Edit: whether or not you consider the puissamanticist to be a normal soldier or special operative depends on how interesting you want standard soldiers to be. Fighters are boring. I could see this being a sneaky saboteur, or part of a coordinated team building warmachines in the middle of a battlefield and staggering or exploding anyone who gets too close.

[sirpercival]

Dumping in warmaker abilities was suggested to flesh out the class. I would rather keep the arts of war though, since they add to the combat focus. I had previously considered giving both anima and aow, or maybe giving a choice. I would also like a way to to use spontaneous principles with weaponns, such as a projectile that prepares the principle on whatever it hits, but that might fit better with gramaric items. If it does I might add some interaction between the puissamanticist and the item system.

Sorry if there is anything important I didn't respond to, I'll answer again later when I'm on a better device.

No anima at the very least, because, y'know, no EB.

Seriously, something separate from AoW would be significantly better. AoW is far from the only combat-oriented mech that exists... I mean, what about giving them access to martial maneuvers? And they can spend puissance to recover them, or expend maneuvers to do stuff with puissance? I dunno, just spitballing -- coming up with something else will be not that hard...

[Fako]

I would like to request that important subjects adressed on the irc be posted here, so that more people can see them. Myself included since I'm currently too busy to be ircing for any length of time.

Posting like a transcript or sparknotes about what happened in the chat? I second the motion. I can only haunt the chat every couple of days and only for a hour or two. I can't be sure what has been discussed.

I'll provide logs whenever I am present for the convos, and several others are creating logs to ensure that no one is kept "out of the loop" Please keep in mind that there may need to be adjustments made to fit the PG guidelines of these forums, any such changes will be highlighted in blue

Spoilered below is a quick discussion about the Puissamanticist, Warmaker, and Military Science tag:

Spoiler: Military Science

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<~sirpercival> fako did you see my puissamanticist comments?
<Fako> No?
<Rolep> To use the cliche: 'My parents don;t understand me'.
<~sirpercival> (Link: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showp...&postcount=287)
<Rolep> Also, sirp, MilSci is *very* tactics-oriented.
<Rolep> The milsci prnciples tend to have few large-scale applications.
<Fako> Rolep: You're giving them a tremendous list of principles to choose from, considering the lack of limit on disciplines
<Rolep> Qazzquimby is; he wrote it!
<Rolep> everyone seems confused about that...
<~sirpercival> haha it'sbecause you wrote PUIS
<Rolep> I suggest 5 disciplines plus 1 specialisation plus 1 MilSci
<Fako> I wasn't saying you as in having written it, I was saying you as in allowing it to work in such a way ;)
<Rolep> Fako: Obviously, how could I be so stupid as to not see your wise and perfect intentions. :p
<Fako> Rolep: Because we're using a flawed language, and I'm only half awake?
<Rolep> Few langauges possess the technical precision of english, but I see what you mean
<Fako> Rolep: I think that would work, especially considering they don't have the "discipline unlock or specialize" feature of the Warmaker at higher levels.
<Rolep> Exactly.
<Rolep> Also, see my comment on the warmaker box in the fix wish list (I was using my fake school google account cheeseman jaws...)
<Fako> I saw. I'm rather confused by it, as both classes are Tier 2.
<~sirpercival> HAHAHA http://i.4cdn.org/vg/src/1390322286875.png
<Fako> lol
<Rolep> me not get it
<Fako> I realize that their principles known is smaller than the gramarist, and that their access to principles is technically more limited. However, they get 4 specializations over their career to the Gramarist's two, even though Gramarist is (from what I see) intended to be the specialized builder. They also have
<Rolep> Fako: I was saying that, even though the range of principles that they can *potentially* choose is large, they can only choose 10, in comparison with the gramarist's 15. They both have the same potential for feats to get more (indeed, a universalist gramarist has even more options). So even if Warmakers have a wider poential range, they aren't as strong, plus
<Fako> More principles to choose from past level 10 than the Gramarist does, by virtue of their unlock feature. The exception to this is a generalist who chooses to gain Military Science. These cannot have doctorate specialist principles... yet a warmaker can :)
<Rolep> 5 principles + 4 speicalisations/bonus principles + milsci = 42 to 54 principles.
<Rolep> *disciplines
<Rolep> for the first two principles
<Fako> 9 disciplines + 2 specializations is only 35 principles available
<Rolep> 17 disciplines + 2 specialisations = 57
<Rolep> homebrew, mother *bleep*
<Fako> Lol, fair. However, I'm going off of just what was written by Kellus :)
<~sirpercival> well kellus wrote 0 milsci
<~sirpercival> so you can't do that
<Fako> True
<Rolep> Or, for a universalist: 17 disciplines + sort-of specialisations = 85
<Rolep> Plus a universalist can take bonus principles instead of feats
<Rolep> The comment about range never made sense to me.
<Fako> I forgot that part
<Rolep> Combined with ffewer slots to choose from, the gramarist is superior.
<Fako> I had mentally capped the gramarist to 9 disciplines... not sure why, thinking about it

[qazzquimby]

My take, keep gramarists from accessing tagged sciences (no feats) and make specialization hard or impossible to aquire with other classes.

[Fako]

Another IRC log. I proposed a structure for the council, and the convo with that is below.

Spoiler: Council Convo

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<Fako> Question: Who all is present at the moment?
<Alcyius> Me, myself, and I
<Alcyius> Who are all separate personalities
<Rolep> Me, but not my perverted friend.
<Fako> Alcyius: As you're using only one username for three personalities, I'm still only counting you as one :P
<Alcyius> We share
<Fako> *scrubbed*
<Rolep> lol
<Fako> sirpercival, are you here atm?
* Alcyius removes Fako's vocal cords for using acronyms.
* Fako writes MultiplePersonalityDisorder on the wall, then snatches back his vocal cords
<Alcyius> Ahhh
<Alcyius> http://evil-inc.com/comic/evil-atoms-dentist/
<Alcyius> wait
<Alcyius> http://i2.wp.com/evil-inc.com/wp-con...size=980%2C352
<Fako> Hoping for opinions on this: http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=BUctmdxz
<Fako> I'll probably be bringing this up throughout the day, as others jump online :)
<~sirpercival> im kinda here
<Fako> Note: I'm not expecting it to be perfect, I'm just hoping to push forward the idea of refining the project :D
<Fako> And I realize it's very wordy... it's intentional, to make it crystal clear what is and is not allowed in the council's actions.
<Alcyius> "Today I learned a little known fact. One's entire life *does* flash before one's eyes before they die. The process is called, living."
<Rolep> ^
<Fako> ^
<Alcyius> >
<Fako> *scrubbed*
<Rolep> Fail
<Fako> ?
<Rolep> The emoticon failed
<Fako> I take it your chat client inserted a smilie in there?
<Fako> *scrubbed*
<Fako> Better?
<Rolep> Yes
<Rolep> I got the winkie smilie
<Fako> Ah
<Rolep> Also, I'm happy with those proposed rules.
<~sirpercival> as am i
<Fako> Alcyius?
<Alcyius> I have no strong feelings either way
<Alcyius> It doesn't really effect me
<Fako> D: I consider you an active member... posting on GitP isn't necessarily required...
<Alcyius> Well yeah
<Alcyius> But I have no exposure and I won't finish SW until spring break at the earliest
<Alcyius> It's unlikely I'd be an expert
<Alcyius> It doesn't really affect me
<Alcyius> I'll go with whatever you guys decide though
<Rolep> SW?
<Fako> Shattered Worlds
<Fako> Ok, I'm going to put the message (and a small portion of this log) into the thread then
<~sirpercival> Alcyius: you would get a vote in electing experts at the very least
<Fako> ^
<Alcyius> Alright
<Alcyius> I'm fore it
<Alcyius> *for
<Fako> I was intentionally ambiguous in how the votes were handled
<Fako> All that's required is there be a log.
<Fako> That way people can vote in IRC, GitP, or... whatever the abbrev. is for MinMax
<Rolep> MMX
<Fako> Question: Should the vote be once a month, or once every few months?
<Rolep> monthly r bimothly
<Fako> I'm thinking every two or three months, to allow council time to make adjustments and work with the community without worrying about rotation of members...
<Rolep> quarterly sounds professional
<Fako> Agreed. Alcyius, sirpercival? You guys ok with three months, or is that too long of a time frame?
<Alcyius> Sure
<Alcyius> *bleep* *bleep*
<Alcyius> Why is *scrubbed* again
<Rolep> *bleep*
<~sirpercival> yeah
<~sirpercival> three months is good
<Fako> kk
<Alcyius> fako, you may have to bleach my last statement
<Fako> I'll be bleaching a few ;)

The pastebin link in the convo above goes to the original. The modified version is spoilered below:

Spoiler: Council Statement

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Council setup: 7 experts, 1 gramarist

Council purpose:
The council is expected to oversee the Gramarie project as a whole. They will bring problem points and new material to the attention of the community, and oversee the adjustments of said material. They will consider adjustments and ideas of material as provided by the community, ensuring that any problem areas are appropriately resolved. Should material have two contested resolutions offered by the community, the council will decide which to keep. Should the solutions offered by the community be insufficient to resolve the problem at hand, the council has the right to discard said changes and request new ones.

Community Member:
A community member is anyone who wishes to participate in the Gramarie project. Community members are responsible for voting Experts into office on a quarterly basis. Community members may provide up to seven votes for Experts. These votes must all be for different community members, and a community member may not vote for themselves. A community member may provide less than seven votes if they wish, and may opt not to vote at all. They have the right to provide new material, adjusted material, means to resolve problem points, and suggestions on how to improve the project as a whole. Should a community member create content that they wish to be incorporated into the Gramarie project, they should bring it to the attention of an Expert.

Experts:
An Expert is someone in the Gramarie community that is well respected and/or trusted with the ability to balance homebrew projects. As such, an Expert is still considered a portion of the community, entitled to the same rights and permissions thereof. They have the right to call problem points, contested resolutions, and new material to the attention of the council. When the council calls a vote, the Expert is allowed a single Vote, except when a vote is called on new material that the Expert has designed, or on a contested resolution where the Expert has provided one of the resolutions. An Expert is expected to have a reliable means of communication, and is required to inform the council should they be without said means for any extended length of time. An Expert may remain in the position indefinitely, as long as the community repeatedly votes them into office.

Gramarist:
The Gramarist is Kellus. The Gramarist has the same rights as an Expert in all respects, except that it is allowed two Votes whenever a vote is called for. Should the Gramarist decide that they wish to revoke their right to a seat on the council, they have the sole discretion to transfer the seat to another community member, or to permanently remove the seat from the council.

Council votes:
The council will vote whenever new material, adjusted material, problem points, or contested resolutions are brought to the attention of the council by an Expert. These votes may be informal, but all votes will be collected in a manner that allows records to be kept. The vote of each council member will be available to other members of the council, but only the final tally will be available to the community. The length of time for a vote to be submitted will be determined by the council when the vote is called for, and may be anywhere between 48 hours and one week. It is not possible for a vote to be determined before all votes have been tallied or the time frame for the vote has been exceeded, whichever comes first. A member of the council has the right to change their vote at any time during the time frame for the respective vote. When all votes are tallied or the time frame has been exceeded, the option with the most votes will be put into place by the council. Should the council vote result in a tie, the council shall call for a community vote, with a time frame of one week for vote submissions.

If you don't wish to read that wall of text, I don't blame you. Basically, it says this: 7 people are voted to be a council every three months, and they oversee the project. Kellus gets a spot with two votes, providing 9 total votes on the council. A member of the council can't vote if his or her content is what they are voting on, and the council has 48 hours to 1 week to discuss the vote before finalizing it. If the council vote is a tie, it goes to the community.

EDIT: Just hoping to emphasize this: This only applies to what is recognized as "official" or "approved" Gramarie. This won't stop people from making new content, nor will it allow the council to eradicate works that they don't approve of... it just won't be "recognized as part of the project", and will be declared fanbrew, as we do now

EDIT Mk II:

My take, keep gramarists from accessing tagged sciences (no feats) and make specialization hard or impossible to aquire with other classes.

I personally don't agree, simply because it would restrict what players can do if they are the only gramarist in the party/world. I'd much rather see options opened up instead of shut down. Example:

Intense Studies
Prerequisites: Must know principle 101 for chosen discipline, 4 ranks in key skill for chosen discipline
Benefit: Choose a discipline and a tag for special principles within that discipline, such as [Military Science] or [Organic Science]. You add the principles of that tag within the discipline to the list of principles that you may acquire normally.
Normal: You may only choose general principles within a discipline, unless you have a relevant class ability that allows you access to another.

[qazzquimby]

I don't thiink we need a council any more than the final call making committee we already discussed. What is official and what is not can be voted on publicly, with waffling votes answered by the committee. As long as people only vote when they know what theyre talking about, and are informed of subtler concequences beforehand, it should be alright I think.

Probably unpopular decision #2: If theres only a feat separating tagged principles, there's almost no point in tagging them. Being the only gramarist in the world you should figure out what you want to do and build for it. Gramarie is not known as heavily restrictive.

[Milo v3]

Probably unpopular decision #2: If theres only a feat separating tagged principles, there's almost no point in tagging them. Being the only gramarist in the world you should figure out what you want to do and build for it. Gramarie is not known as heavily restrictive.

I disagree, because they are rather easy to access from the specific class and if you want non-class access to them you need to take them as feats one discipline at a time.

This means that the Anabolist and Warmaker still have a severe advantage in getting their Science principles, compared to Gramarists who would have to slowly learn specific sets of them.

[Fako]

I don't thiink we need a council any more than the final call making committee we already discussed. What is official and what is not can be voted on publicly, with waffling votes answered by the committee. As long as people only vote when they know what theyre talking about, and are informed of subtler concequences beforehand, it should be alright I think.

That post is actually just a highly wordy version of the opinion I gave to you on IRC: The committee (council) picks what to work on, community fixes it, committee (council) breaks up fights and picks the next thing to work on. The reason for the expanded wording is to prevent an attempt by the council to use their "final call" powers in an attempt to take total control of the system... because I'm paranoid...

Probably unpopular decision #2: If theres only a feat separating tagged principles, there's almost no point in tagging them. Being the only gramarist in the world you should figure out what you want to do and build for it. Gramarie is not known as heavily restrictive.

You're correct that gramarie isn't known as being highly restrictive. However, a lot of the potent blueprint builds require (ab)use of HEUR 302 or Dreamcatcher, in order to outsource things that a regular character cannot do. Consider that a Gramarist only gets 15 principles over their career (barring feats). If you want a doctorate-grade principle, you need at least three principles from that discipline before you can take it - that's 25% of your class-given principles used within one discipline. Also, if that doctorate-grade principle is from a discipline where you are not a specialist, then you have to burn a feat slot in order to get one of the specialist/military science/organic science principles in order to obtain it.

If we pull out all the stops and use all things possible to get principles, a Human Gramarist will only be able to have 30 principles in total (15 class, 7 feats, 4 bonus feats, 1 Human, 2 flaws). Granted, that is a LOT of options when building, but it still doesn't cover everything available, and it assumes that we don't need to use any of those feats in order to even get access to the principles themselves, which is also unlikely.

At 11th level, a generalist Gramarist can opt to gain access to all principles with a specific tag, such as Military Science or Organic Science, using their Second Degree class feature. Granted, the generalist is already a potent option for a Gramarist, as long as they don't mind getting specialist principles one tier late.

The idea behind the tag is to provide alternative branches of the discipline, without making them overly complex. (I personally wouldn't mind seeing them converted into a tech-tree style setup, but that's personal opinion, not something that's guaranteed to happen.) With those alternative branches you have specific groups that study them - Warmaker for Military Science, Anabolist for Organic Science. Neither one will ever have the same flexibility of choice as the Gramarist, for he alone can cherry pick which disciplines he wants to play with. In exchange, their limited focus provides said branches. (Also, I will admit that I'm unsure about the Warmaker's access to four branches of specialist principles, but cutting out 5 principles over their career does a fair bit of hurt when it comes to having doctorate tech...)

[qazzquimby]

Ok, convinced. I somehow missed that the feat only works for a single discipline, and that makes a big difference. I think the Warmaker 4 specialization problem, if it is one, could easily be solved by saying the ability can only used to grant a specialization once or twice.

As for the council, which is a nicer name than committee, could we not just have some criterion for when the council is called upon? For instance, everyone places a vote, and if the votes are within the 60-40 range (arbitrary number) the council makes the final decision, considering the leaning. That won't cover all of the times a council will be useful, but I think a similar system should work. A group rotating every three months that can't vote on their own things would work, but I think it sounds like overkill.

Edit: On the puissamanticist, I agree with the suggested changes, and I'll make them as soon as I have content to fill the gaps with. Thanks for looking through it.

[Fako]

As for the council, which is a nicer name than committee, could we not just have some criterion for when the council is called upon? For instance, everyone places a vote, and if the votes are within the 60-40 range (arbitrary number) the council makes the final decision, considering the leaning. That won't cover all of the times a council will be useful, but I think a similar system should work. A group rotating every three months that can't vote on their own things would work, but I think it sounds like overkill.

As odd as this may be to hear, you're completely correct: the structure I suggested for the council IS overkill. The council size takes roughly half of the active members we have, and I doubt they'd be replaced on the council on a regular basis unless they decide to no longer participate in the community. With how small our group is, it wouldn't be hard to collate votes from the ~15 people that participate within Gramarie, and work from there to hammer out the systems with the issue.

The main reason I am suggesting such an excessive solution is simple: future-proofing. Since I can't tell the future, I personally have no clue what the population of the group that's interested in Gramarie will be in a week from now, let alone next month or in three months. The idea for the council is set up to allow order to be maintained should there be a surge of interest, and is a small enough group that it should be sustainable unless the community "dies out".

[qazzquimby]

Alright, im mostly in agreement then. Could the system be smoothed ovver so its not so much to bother with while we don't need it? Example, the council only needs to rotate after three months if someone has expressed interest in filling the place, or someone has stopped communicating. Its probably not a big deal, I'm just thinking aloud.

Another thing, though I understand the logic behind it, I would prefer if people could vote on their own material. Barring that looks as if we dont trust people to be honest and unbiased, and I think we, or atleast the currently suggested council members, are better than that.

[Milo v3]

I got bored so I made some posters.

And fako I'm sorry for the error in the Biojack's poster, but laziness is stopping me from fixing it.

[Omnicrat]

I'll go back to critiquing things (and at least reading them) shortly (I am very interested in revised eldrikinetics for one thing), but for now I have a question.

Is there any homebrew that combines the Evolutionist Grove with Geoocultism?

EDIT: Also, any chance for a spoiler on the image Milo? Maybe even pick your own image to reflect the revision. Then spoiler it.