One Piece III: Cups!

[Kato]

How exactly do you use a Logia differently? This isn't a Zoan with Rumble capabilities or a Paramecia. Logia are pretty straight forward.

I'll have to agree with Atlantean. The thing is, we never saw a fruit being handed down and used differently. While there was some statement (by Oda?) about fruits being dependent on their user - I think specifically about Luffy's creative use of his powers - we never saw anyone vary the powers of their fruit. Yeah, Sabo could be more creative in his use of the Mera Mera than Ace' "I'll shoot fire at stuff" approach but unless we get some confirmation he can build stuff out of fire I don't see too much variation. Then again, I'm willing to admit I'm wrong when Oda shows us But in general... no, I don't want Sabo to eat the fire fruit and become "just like Ace" or something like that. I feel it would cheapen Ace' character (although I'm not nearly as fond of him as the rest of the fandom, anyway)

Caesar has shown considerable flexibility with his Logia... though I suspect a lot of that is Oda consciously wanting him to seem science-y. And Gas is a more general a concept then Fire.

How is gas more general than fire? Okay, there are many kinds of gases but strictly speaking there are a lot of varieties of fire (depending on what you are burning) Ace restricting himself to... well, he didn't exactly burn anything but took the general approach of "burning the air" most of the time but then most magic fires don't ever follow the rules of physics...

2.) Speaking of Avatar, do you think a bender would be able to bend a Logia's body? And if so, do you think they could only do so in a "puppet" sort of way or in a "dealing damage through body control" sort of way?

Why would you ask something NONE of us could possibly say anything about other than random guessing? There is no evidence in favor of either because... well, the universes never did and most likely never will meet.

[AtlanteanTroll]

For what it is worth, I think Diamond Jozu seems more like a paramecia. Plus, were he a Logia, why wouldn't he just reform his arm? We've also never seen him create diamonds outside his body. Furthermore, thematically, it's nice that the 1st Division commander was a Zoan, the 2nd was a Logia, and the 3rd was a Paramecia.

I'll have to agree with Atlantean. The thing is, we never saw a fruit being handed down and used differently. While there was some statement (by Oda?) about fruits being dependent on their user - I think specifically about Luffy's creative use of his powers - we never saw anyone vary the powers of their fruit. Yeah, Sabo could be more creative in his use of the Mera Mera than Ace' "I'll shoot fire at stuff" approach but unless we get some confirmation he can build stuff out of fire I don't see too much variation. Then again, I'm willing to admit I'm wrong when Oda shows us But in general... no, I don't want Sabo to eat the fire fruit and become "just like Ace" or something like that. I feel it would cheapen Ace' character (although I'm not nearly as fond of him as the rest of the fandom, anyway)

I think Kato has managed to articulate my thoughts better than I did! I don't doubt Oda's creativity in the slightest, but I just don't think Sabo would do to much else different, and his getting the fruit would jump ape Ace's character. It'd really be the first time Oda disappointed me with his storytelling. Though it could work out okay even with Sabo getting it, who knows. Oda is very creative and a master storyteller.

Why would you ask something NONE of us could possibly say anything about other than random guessing? There is no evidence in favor of either because... well, the universes never did and most likely never will meet.

Cause it's fun! I'd bet on bender bending the bodies of Logia users.

[lord_khaine]

For what it is worth, I think Diamond Jozu seems more like a paramecia. Plus, were he a Logia, why wouldn't he just reform his arm? We've also never seen him create diamonds outside his body. Furthermore, thematically, it's nice that the 1st Division commander was a Zoan, the 2nd was a Logia, and the 3rd was a Paramecia.

Another solid argument, besides of course Jozu not really doing anything Logia-like with his DF, just to start with he should then have been able to slip though Flamingo's strings.

I think Kato has managed to articulate my thoughts better than I did! I don't doubt Oda's creativity in the slightest, but I just don't think Sabo would do to much else different, and his getting the fruit would jump ape Ace's character. It'd really be the first time Oda disappointed me with his storytelling. Though it could work out okay even with Sabo getting it, who knows. Oda is very creative and a master storyteller.

He could easily turn it into a legacy thing, and if he used Haki as his main attack, and the fruit just for defence and tricks, then he could avoid becomming a second Ace.
Who i for that matter mostly liked for dying, giving us such an intense ending.

[Sigh]

Another solid argument, besides of course Jozu not really doing anything Logia-like with his DF, just to start with he should then have been able to slip though Flamingo's strings.

Aokiji kind of has the same deal going for him though, most of the time someone has to physically break him into shards before his icyness can go anywhere. Also how exactly would a diamond person generate more diamonds? I mean, with liquid logia it's easy to see because it flows out of them, and Aokiji's ice seems to require something to form around, but I'm having a hard time visualizing what a diamond-maker would even do besides get fabulously wealthy.

In any case if he is indeed a Paramecia then I'm just going to add him to my mental list of Paramecia that imitate logia, along with Baby 5, Mr 1, and Magellan.

Also speaking of Magellan, I have a theory that super dangerous prisoners are held in Level 6 due to their higher than normal odds for having Conqueror's Haki. True, we didn't see any of the prisoners in that level USE it, but it would be smart to house them there just in case so anyone that was in that level couldn't try and use it on the guards/other inmates to escape.

[Soras Teva Gee]

I tend to think Jozu is a Paramecia personally because logia for all their invincibility are mostly shooty characters. I think he's more like the Gomu Gomu save it can be turned on and off which is just a rule.

[lord_khaine]

Aokiji kind of has the same deal going for him though, most of the time someone has to physically break him into shards before his icyness can go anywhere. Also how exactly would a diamond person generate more diamonds? I mean, with liquid logia it's easy to see because it flows out of them, and Aokiji's ice seems to require something to form around, but I'm having a hard time visualizing what a diamond-maker would even do besides get fabulously wealthy.

Maybe fire them off as super hard projectiles?
Because i also found it rather telling that it was only part of his body that turned into diamond, and he then used that part to deflect attacks with.
If he had been a logie i think it would have been more likely for him to turn wholly into diamonds.

[Kato]

I have to wonder how clear the distinction between fruit types is... It isn't like there's a stamp on it that says "logia". Yeah, for Zoan it is pretty obvious but for Paramecia it seems "everything that's not one of the others".

And from what we considered "logia" so far most were of an element/substance that is quite insubstantial. Sand, fire, smoke... They are all not solid. (Well, sand a little.) Mr 1 and Jozu are the only ones I can recall where it doesn't make simple sense for them to dodge attacks by turning into their element. Still, was there ever any discussion about Mr 1 being a logia? Yeah, he has shown some more versatility in power than Jozu but still. Maybe invulnerability isn't a basic feature of logia but it comes down to what element you are... (Yeah, Aokiji and Akainu somewhat screw with that)

[LaZodiac]

I don't believe there's been any discussion about what fruit type Daz Bones' power is. It's definitively paramecia, since he's a swordman.

[Infernally Clay]

I don't believe there's been any discussion about what fruit type Daz Bones' power is. It's definitively paramecia, since he's a swordman.

Oh, it's a Paramecia alright. He turns body parts into blades, not a particular element (although a Steel Logia would be really lame anyway).

[Sigh]

I call it logia-imitating Paramecia because if you weren't 100% aware of the rules you might be confused into thinking that it was a logia when it was, in fact, a paramecia-type.

Also only turning part of your body into whatever element you are is nothing new, pretty much everyone with a logia fruit except maybe Crocodile did something similar when using their powers. The reason this could cause confusion, to me anyway, is because due to the crazy high durability levels of diamond in media we'd likely never see a piece of him break off of him in the first place to determine what exactly he is.

[Soras Teva Gee]

Thus far logia have made perfect sense as being both natural/enviromental and kinda non-specific. They are thematically speaking base components.

Paramecia is more specific. Rubber, is a basically manmade from a only certain trees. Daz Bones, he makes blades. Galdino is not even wax but a candle. Diamond is probably paramecia while a logia version would be like crystal or gem.

[Kato]

Well, now I feel silly. In my mind he always was a steel man

Still, have we ever seen a logia user of a solid element? I mean, definitely massively solid.

[Soras Teva Gee]

Ice is solid.

[lord_khaine]

But.. is his element Ice or Cold? Because as i recall it was the freeze freeze fruit that he ate?

[Soras Teva Gee]

Given the shaky at best ground between those as superpowers generally... both.

Cold is the concept, ice is the substance.

You don't think that "moisture in the air" is anything but nonsense and that he's not violating conservation when he conjures it from nothing right? And the whole body of ice thing.

[Sigh]

Let's be honest here though the law of conservation of energy/mass is absolutely blown to bits in One Piece.

[Kato]

Let's be honest here though the law of conservation of energy/mass is absolutely blown to bits in One Piece.

Well, most supernatural fiction doesn't work too well when you try to stick to any laws of physics... heck, even nine out of ten action movies can't keep up with it even when they try to be "realistic".

[Soras Teva Gee]

Let's be honest here though the law of conservation of energy/mass is absolutely blown to bits in One Piece.

Well given how much size may vary in any large scale OP scene, yeah pretty much.

I'd find it... amusing for some people to try and figure out how big islands are supposed to be in One Piece.

[Sigh]

Wow, is it that time already? A new episode of filler OP is out, and this one's short to explain but a doozy to watch.

So we start where we left off, with Luffy, Law and Chopper being captured by the Peto Peto guy. When Chopper's Monster Point wears off he's overwhelmed by Chopper's adorableness and sends Luffy and Law down to the cages where Caesar is also being kept. After demonstrating his powers again as well as the fact that his fortress is covered in surveillance, he starts monologuing about how terrible humans are and what his plan is, which is basically to use Caesar to mass produce SMILE and just turn EVERYONE into animals with the knockoff Devil Fruits, and then to subsequently enslave everyone and make a paradise/kingdom/whatever that has no humans left, just animals that do his bidding.

Luffy gives his usual "I'm not gonna listen to you cause I'm a MAN and a PIRATE and FREEDOM, YEAH!" and this naturally pisses off the crazy Peto guy, so he brings out the cage to where they were before and orders Luffy and Law to kill each other, but to ensure that it's done slowly and painfully they can't use their DF powers, just punches and presumably Haki. As this goes down (the fight scene is pretty awesome BTW) we see the dewgong/seal/turtle/whatever go to the Peto guy and plead in his barky way to stop their fighting, and after some intense whipping, kicking, and tears he says "ok bro, but instead YOU have to kill them, MAN I'm an evil SOB" so the little bro starts wailing on them both until Luffy and Law are both flying out the window into the sea.

And that's it. That's how the episode ends.

[ryuplaneswalker]

In Regards to Jozu's fruit.

My bet would be Paramecia, as Diamonds..are not really an element persay, however he could be a Logia that got his fruit much later in his career as a pirate so he had a set fighting style and just uses the fruit powers to enhance it.

[Neoriceisgood]

My two cents regarding the paramecia/logia discussion:

Didn't Kizaru in his fight against Basil Hawkins say something along the lines of Hawkins clearly not being Logia based on the fact that his attacks could clearly hurt him?

The fact that something as non-elemental looking as a strawman could potentially be a logia until proven otherwise makes me feel like there's no strict rules to how "elemental" or "non-solid" a logia has to be.

The biggest attributes of any logia power seem to be:
1. being able to completely morph into the element & flow/disfigure one's body accordingly.

2. near-immunity to non-haki fueled damage. (the exception being damage caused by an element's natural weakness)

3. The ability to produce/manipulate the element created.

The only known logia fruit to clearly break these rules is, of course, the darkness logia fruit.

What stands out to me about Diamand Jozu's power is that he seems to fall within the same camp of paramecia as luffy, mr.3 and magellan.

Luffy: can gain the attributes of rubber but not literally turn into rubber, nor produce it.

Mr.3: can produce and manipulate wax, but not gain the attributes nor turn into it.

Magellan: Seems to be largely immune to poison and can coat himself it without problems and produce/control large quantities of it.

The reason none of them are logia is simple: when faced with physical attacks they're merely protected by the attributes their element gives to them, they can't completely evade damage by making their body turn into the element entirely.

Diamond Jozu seems like a less versatile but more defense-based version of luffy, he can't produce diamond but only gain its attributes. Any injury/attack that can bypass his diamond shell however, will still affect him. Just like swords affect luffy. (in jozu's case this is more oddball stuff like strings & ice)


Anyway, just my thoughts on it.

[Soras Teva Gee]

Didn't Kizaru in his fight against Basil Hawkins say something along the lines of Hawkins clearly not being Logia based on the fact that his attacks could clearly hurt him?

The fact that something as non-elemental looking as a strawman could potentially be a logia until proven otherwise makes me feel like there's no strict rules to how "elemental" or "non-solid" a logia has to be.

I'm not sure I'd take a statement that the sky is blue seriously if it was Kizaru saying it. Checking and a I have the statement as "I don't know what kind of power you've got... but it looks like you've got a body... so you're not a 'logia-type.'" from Ch 509. If anything I tend to think Kizaru is saying the opposite, that while it may be odd Hawkins keeps getting back up... our Admiral knows damn well he can't be a logia because its definitely different.

Not that I think purely on visual information Basil can't plausibly be an element.

[Neoriceisgood]

I'm not sure I'd take a statement that the sky is blue seriously if it was Kizaru saying it.

We don't often have characters spouting outright falsehoods when it comes to powers and stuff, right? (Aside from Shanks saying you can't be a pirate with a DF ... lol.)

[Soras Teva Gee]

We don't often have characters spouting outright falsehoods when it comes to powers and stuff, right? (Aside from Shanks saying you can't be a pirate with a DF ... lol.)

Often is not the same as never. And we are talking about less a monkey then a troll here.

However in this case though there's no need to consider Kizaru's character since the premise is not supportable anyways.

[LaZodiac]

I'd sort of consider Basil as possibly being a logia, if all he did with his powers was hit people with woods and stuff. The fact that he's so focused on using that voodoo nail stuff, tells to me he's clearly a paramecia.

[Neoriceisgood]

I'm not sure I'd take a statement that the sky is blue seriously if it was Kizaru saying it. Checking and a I have the statement as "I don't know what kind of power you've got... but it looks like you've got a body... so you're not a 'logia-type.'" from Ch 509. If anything I tend to think Kizaru is saying the opposite, that while it may be odd Hawkins keeps getting back up... our Admiral knows damn well he can't be a logia because its definitely different.

Well the reason he stated it was definitely different was due to Hawkins having a solid body though, wasn't it?

I don't quite see how that'd invalidate the rest of what I said, but okay.

[Tectonic Robot]

Would a logia fruit that turned your body to rock actually make you weaker defensively in the long run? Seems like its easier to shatter rock than hurt higher-end warriors in One Piece...

[Kato]

Well the reason he stated it was definitely different was due to Hawkins having a solid body though, wasn't it?

I don't quite see how that'd invalidate the rest of what I said, but okay.

I think the issue is Kizaru never really wondered if he was a straw man but just made a comment on what he presumed his powers were. Straw would likely be the weirdest logia power ever (well, we got a candy man... but still) and it seems unreasonable for Kizaru to assume he might be a straw man rather than just wonder what kind of power helps him ignoring the damage.

Would a logia fruit that turned your body to rock actually make you weaker defensively in the long run? Seems like its easier to shatter rock than hurt higher-end warriors in One Piece...

That's pretty much what I was wondering above The only one we know who might shatter because of his ability is Aokiji but he seems to ignore damage done to him as well. Then again, Ice can melt and freeze again, which is... at least harder for rock. Maybe that is why we never see a solid logia, they are just not that useful?

[Soras Teva Gee]

Would a logia fruit that turned your body to rock actually make you weaker defensively in the long run? Seems like its easier to shatter rock than hurt higher-end warriors in One Piece...

If you break a rock in two does it stop being rock?
Does a rock have organs or blood?

If no then presumably it still wouldn't matter. It would be harder to momentarily inconvenience them like happens to logia users a lot, but they still wouldn't be wounded. (Again ice is not soft nor a fluid)

That said the sort of unthinking common perceptions would probably make it a little more incongruous. So I'm not betting on a rock logia... and the Rock-Rock would clearly be Brooks rival.

[Kato]

Wow, is it that time already? A new episode of filler OP is out, and this one's short to explain but a doozy to watch.

Meh, it wasn't bad but what kind of ruined ot was figuring out what Law figured out mid-episode...

Spoiler

Show

YOu need to hear the order to obey, as demonstrated by Ceasar. And since we never saw Law's eye glow afterwards he likely already shoved something into his ears. Also, he directed the fight towards whatshisnae already... which raises the question why the ef he didn't already Room the place and wipe the floor with that guy... Draw out the drama and stuff, yeah, yeah...

Otherwise... it was decent enough. Putting Chopper in the dress is silly but kind of funny (why he doesn't do anything either I don't get, though) The kind of backstory for the guy... meh. The dugong was cute as well.

But... jeez, I just know got SMILE is the codename for the artificial fruit. I must have missed that somewhere the whole arc.