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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default [PF] Alchemy for alchemists

    As I have mentioned elsewhere, the alchemist is one my favorite classes, both fluff and crunch-wise. I find it to be one of the best crafted classes in the game. This is why, perhaps, some of its more unfortunate moments stick out even more.

    Leaving aside my two biggest gripes (the fact that alchemists, due to the broken craft rules, almost never get to craft their own items, and that the infusion discovery should be standard), I find the existing alchemical items to be largely irrelevant. The PF design team seems to have as its mantra that no alchemical item should be near as powerful as a spell, and that they should be only relevant in the first three or so levels, while being overpriced at that. The only items reasonably priced are the antitoxin and the antiplague.

    This attitude can be seen in all items. Take for example the weapon blanches. You pay 20gps and spent a full round action to make one (1) attack with your weapon. Really? I mean, really? Who in their right mind would ever use such a thing? Why not pay 50 gps and have it last a whole battle?

    There is also the issue of the various dust spells. One would expect that the alchemist would have a spell in his repertoire to mimic faerie fire, glitter dust or even thunderstones and such. But no. The witch has it in its repertoire, the alchemist for some reason, no. This also needs to be amended.

    Finally, there is the issue of scalability. Acid, alchemist fire and tanglefoot bags are nice for the first two or three levels. Why aren't there more powerful versions of these items? Since they are priced more or less like first level arcane spells (and do comparable damage), this should be our guideline.

    With that in mind, I would like to propose some additions and modifications to the alchemical list. Things like stronger offensive alchemies and so on. I would like your opinions on their feasibility and applicability.

    Fortified acid: Dmg 2d6, 20gp, DC 20
    Fortified persistent acid: Dmg 2d6, 1d6 the next round, price 50 gp, DC 25
    Distilled fortified acid: Dmg 3d6 , price 50 gp, DC 25
    Aqua Regius: Dmg 3d6, 2d6 next round, 1d6 final round, price 125 gp, DC 30
    (The above exist in alcahlic form and cost 20% more).

    Pyrhic fire: Dmg 2d6, 2d6 the next round, price 60 gp, DC 25
    Aetheric fire: Dmg 3d6, 2d6 the next round, 1d6 the last round, price 150 gp, DC 30
    Hungry fire: Dmg 3d6 in a 10ft radius, splash damage an additional 5 ft, price 150 gp. DC 30
    (The above also exist in alchemical cold)

    Flashstone: Thrown as a ranged touch attack, Will 15 save or stunned for 1d4 rounds. Price 40 gps, DC 20

    Grasping bag: Range touch attack with range increment 20, DC Reflex 20, otherwise as Tanglefoot bag. Price 150, DC 25
    Pinning bag: As above, DC Reflex 30. Price 250, DC 30

    Tracer dust: 10ft radius, 20 ft range increment. Invisible or hiding creatures caught in the effect radius make a DC20 Ref save or have a -10 penalty to stealth and lose their concealment bonus. They still get their bonuses to attack against opponents.

    Undead/shifter bane: Works like acid against undead/shifters. Same price and types as above.

    Weapon blanches: As is, last 1 minute, double price.

    What do you think?

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    Default Re: [PF] Alchemy for alchemists

    Seems like whenever I start trying to finish my Alchemy system, someone starts writing up new alchemy things.

    These all seem fairly standard, I don't see any problems with them. They seem to mostly emulate low level spells or have higher damage. Seems fine.
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    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: [PF] Alchemy for alchemists

    Domriso, this is what I was looking for. Thanks for the feedback.

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    Default Re: [PF] Alchemy for alchemists

    Consider the feat Master Alchemist when crafting alchemical items you don't convert the cost into sp which in essence multiplies the crafting speed by 10. Combined with the alchemist class feature "swift alchemy" and adding 10 to the DC to increase crafting time. And you could make an antitoxin in a few hours at around level six.

    Really I think the feat should function like the class feature, doubling the crafting time while The Master Alchemist feat should be the class feature.
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    Default Re: [PF] Alchemy for alchemists

    Giving something along the lines of Augmented Alchemy would alow you to still just use the base items, and allow them to scale.

    Something like increasing save DCs, damage, or giving damage over time would increase the DC of the crafting and the cost. Then the upper safe limit becomes 10+class level+level+3... so (level*2)+13. Anything above that is chancing failure.

    Also, what about a artificer like pool of crafting points, but gold for making alchemical items?

    also, does anything have base resistance or is that an assumed part of acid resistance?
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    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: [PF] Alchemy for alchemists

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Vukodlak View Post
    Consider the feat Master Alchemist when crafting alchemical items you don't convert the cost into sp which in essence multiplies the crafting speed by 10. Combined with the alchemist class feature "swift alchemy" and adding 10 to the DC to increase crafting time. And you could make an antitoxin in a few hours at around level six.

    Really I think the feat should function like the class feature, doubling the crafting time while The Master Alchemist feat should be the class feature.
    If you follow the link in the first sentence of the post, you will see that I think that at least half of the feat Master Alchemist should be part of the alchemist package. So, yeah. That is the idea.

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    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: [PF] Alchemy for alchemists

    Quote Originally Posted by bobthe6th View Post
    Giving something along the lines of Augmented Alchemy would alow you to still just use the base items, and allow them to scale.

    Something like increasing save DCs, damage, or giving damage over time would increase the DC of the crafting and the cost. Then the upper safe limit becomes 10+class level+level+3... so (level*2)+13. Anything above that is chancing failure.

    Also, what about a artificer like pool of crafting points, but gold for making alchemical items?

    also, does anything have base resistance or is that an assumed part of acid resistance?
    The augmented alchemy feat is in the line of what I was trying to do here. However, it is again way to steep a price and the crafting gets ridiculous. A first level spell cast at second level (say Burning Hands which is supposed to be the archetype), costs only twice to create a scroll or a wand out of. But for some reason, alchemical items should cost 5 times as much? Why? They are already limited.

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    Default Re: [PF] Alchemy for alchemists

    It would be nice to break it down into a simple formulae: +xd6 initial damage has and increased DC of x*5 and cost of x*initial cost, with similar for increased save DC's, range, etc.

    Would you pay 50 gp for a 5d6 acid flask? A CL 5 burning hands scroll would cost 62.5 GP (scribed for half, ~31 gp), the flask would be crafted for 1/3 (considerably less than the scroll) but would require a DC 35 check, which ain't happening until long after the scroll would be worthless. Even if you factor in the hybridization funnel, you aren't going to see problematic damage rates, I don't expect. Maybe cap the increases to be sure.

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    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: [PF] Alchemy for alchemists

    Quote Originally Posted by stack View Post
    It would be nice to break it down into a simple formulae: +xd6 initial damage has and increased DC of x*5 and cost of x*initial cost, with similar for increased save DC's, range, etc.

    Would you pay 50 gp for a 5d6 acid flask? A CL 5 burning hands scroll would cost 62.5 GP (scribed for half, ~31 gp), the flask would be crafted for 1/3 (considerably less than the scroll) but would require a DC 35 check, which ain't happening until long after the scroll would be worthless. Even if you factor in the hybridization funnel, you aren't going to see problematic damage rates, I don't expect. Maybe cap the increases to be sure.
    That is something worth thinking about. The thing is, I would probably prefer that the items were easier to make and perhaps a bit more expensive. One of the problems is that alchemical items take for ever to craft, making them worthless in game, even if the Master Alchemist feat got into the main package of the alchemist. How about the price was bumped up to what a scroll would cost to get scribed, but the DC remained within range of an alchemist of the same level (something he could craft with a 10).

    A 5th level alchemist would have an alchemy mod of 9+4 Int+5 lvl+2 MW tools. That is a +20 give or take. A DC 30 would then be appropriate, and the cost could be around the 90 gp mark. The cost then for the alchemist would be 30gps.

    The same formula could work for alchemical items that give conditions, like blidness, daze etc. For example Blindness is a 2nd level spell. A flashgrenade like item should then cost around the 210gps mark, so that the alchemist pays 70, which is what a caster would pay.

    Finally, as for the cap, this could easily be something like 6d6.

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