The OotS Magic Compendium

[Kish]

As to Counterspelling: I don't play D&D, but I read somewhere (I think on this forum) that if someone said Counterspell he isn't required to use the same spell, i. e. there are other possibilities, too.

That is correct (e.g., a slow can be used to counterspell haste, Dispel Magic can be used to counterspell anything).

[Gwynfrid]

As to Counterspelling: I don't play D&D, but I read somewhere (I think on this forum) that if someone said Counterspell he isn't required to use the same spell, i. e. there are other possibilities, too. If that is the case than we can't use any Counterspell as an original spell, because we simple don't know if the original spell was used or not.

Correct. There are 3 ways to counterspell:
- Cast the same spell that you're trying to counter
- Cast Dispel Magic or Greater Dispel Magic (but then you must make a caster level check)
- With the Improved Counterspell feat, cast any spell of the same school and the same or a higher level.

In the comic, there's no way to know which method is used.

[ChristianSt]

Before catching up on these posts, I wanted to address this one, because I wanted to state my predicament in this. My character count for the second post is already above 30K on the material alone. Cleaning up the links adds more characters, and the table would add more. Judging at how many are in the work page, and that there will be more updates, I don't think a table will work, mostly because eventually even without it I'm likely going to hit the character limit, and then extend the list to a second post. Since, as you point out, a table wouldn't be very effective when split between two posts, it seems to me it's not going to be a great option.

Which is sad, because I LOVE tables, and am pretty well versed on them.

If you have any solutions to these problems, however, or other suggestions on format, I'd love to have input.

I haven't done a character count - but yeah, that is one massive drawback of one table. It is still possible to use smaller tables (if you think there are a better format), but the sort-function will not work. It would theoretically be possible to reduce it by using link shortening services, but I would prefer not using any (since it adds additional work, and it is less transparent - I don't see where the link is going.)

One other thing I would change: I would massively reduce the number of spoiler tags used. I would use maximum one to hide the complete thing (if even), but certainly not for each letter. It just adds so much work to expand the whole thing (and imo doesn't add any value).

Cleaning the links doesn't add that much characters - it adds less than three per link [If you use only the strip number as link-text] (for now - going into 4-digit comics soonish that might change). With even more information it is a relatively small percentage, but it adds around 1.8k characters as of now (and that number isn't going to get smaller).

[TheWombatOfDoom]

Bestow Curse is also cast in #591.

Added! Thank you. Missed that one in my scan.

Do mentions of spells count (the spell is mentioned in the comic, but not actually cast or attempted)? If so, a bunch were mentioned in 049. They are Dispel Magic, Feather Fall, Fireball, Fly, Haste, Lightning Bolt, Meteor Swarm, Time Stop, Vampiric Touch, and Wish.

A good question. I suppose they should if this might become a reference to people not very familiar with D & D, and want to see what a specific spell mentioned is or has done. Especially if we're now included spells that have fizzled in the list, which I believe has been suggested by a few people now. So, I guess thats more to add.

The context is that V is trying to trade for a spell, listing spells that he would allow Zz'dtri to copy in exchange for fly. With the possible exception of Meteor Swarm, Time Stop, and Wish, the spells that V lists are assumed to be in his spell book, and thus castable (those three could just be outlandish suggestions on V's part to try and get Z to answer anything other than negative, so V may not be able to actually cast any of those (particularly wish))

Yeah, I think V just started grasping at straws by the end. Though Time Stop has been used by him/her. Either way, I could put the spell in, and then if I make a casting list they wouldn't be included, as they were not cast.

Edit: Also, the spell "Protection from Fire" is missing from the list. It was cast twice in 052

Added! I missed those too!

You listed "Weather Control." It's actually "Control Weather." In the following strip, an angel is talking to Thor about it, and refers to it as such. Durkon was just chanting the name over and over, and it happened to "zoom in" (for want of a better term) on his speech while he was saying "weather."

Thanks for that! Fixed it.

Don't forget Xykon's Moderatly Escapable Forcecage. You listed it under "Forcecage" but I think it's actually a very different spells.

Well, that's the first time Forcecage is depicted, so it could just be an art change. Also, V's cage is different from Xykon's, in that Xykon picks the barred version of the spell, while V picks the wall of force version.

Perhaps the spell names should link to the spell description in the SRD?

Also: One of the inflict moderate wounds should say "(quickened)".

Well, I'd like to instead have them quoted on this list, rather than link them off site. Get all the information in one place, yeah?

Also, do you know which one should be quickened?

Since I find the link format to be pretty much unreadable, I have written a small Perl script to make it better.

BTW: the capitalization inside Unknown Spells is pretty horrible - but I hope and think you will change it if you move it to the other list [I also wasn't in the mood to fix that]. Also it might be a bit intended if you only want to use that list as scratchpad.

THANK YOU. That saves me a TON of tedious work. Merry Christmas!

Yeah, I didn't capitalize them because they're notes, not the actual name of the spell. That's basically my work page before I port them into the actual list.

That's a very impressive accomplishment. I'm sure it must have been lots of work, and I really hate to suggest even more work, but I will.

First a nitpick: I would change Death Ward to "Death Ward, Mass", and then you can skip the notations after each instance. The second one failed, and that should be noted.

Thank you! Yeah, I was working on my Annotation of the Comic, and I wondered if there was an easier way to define things like spells. This was one of the ways I decided would be a good solution, plus an interesting project of its own. I don't mind working more on this! I figured there would be some new ideas that I liked, and I wanted input on this project, so there ya go.

Changed Mass Death Ward to your suggestion. Sounds good to me.

As far as more work, ideally this database should have

• who cast the spell
• did it fail
• was it cast via a scroll, wand, staff, or rune/sigil, or class feature
• was it a counterspell
• multiple instances on a page

and maybe some other info I'm not thinking of. OK, that's a lot more work, especially the part about caster. And I can totally understand you not wanting to go to the effort to gather this additional info. But if you do, you could use the reserved post to crosslist all spells by caster. That would be even more impressive.

If you look at the OP, a lot of this I would already like to do. I'm also considering doing this for skills as well, though that might have to go on a separate thread...

The caster list I like, and might use a table for that...if everything will fit in it. How would you suggest a format of that, lists by caster? If it failed would go in the caster list as well, and way of casting works for that too.

By multiple instances, I mean the same spell cast by the same person in the same strip. This isn't too common, but there are times when someone does more than one of the same Cure * Wounds, or V casts more than one Disintegrate or X spams Drain Energy.

Let's not forget Nale casting Sending! As far as multiple instances on a page, perhaps I could put a (#) next to them in the spell compendium, to designate how many times it happened in an update. But perhaps there would be a better place...maybe a table with a tally, or something.

Now if you do decide to add info about caster, here's a thread with all Elan's castings. That'll give you a bit of a start. Note that he frequently casts illusions without saying which one. I assumed that any that talk are Major Image and the rest are Silent Image. I could be wrong on these, of course. And I do wonder what spell he cast for the celestial tree sloth, since it's touching Sabine and none of the illusion spells include tactile effects.

Anyway, good job on collecting this info.

Ooo! That should help me with the Unknown spells too! I'll have to check that one out. I think the tree sloth was an instance of her believing it existed, so she was reacting. Likely one of the reasons she got over it quickly is because she couldn't feel it, aside from...you know....celestial tree sloth...

1) A spell-like or supernatural ability.
2) A quality of the area they're in--like the way Eugene is able to use the View From Above to perform epic scrying without casting a spell or being epic.

I also note that you've added a Summon Employee Exit spell, based on Celia saying "I'm summoning the employee exit" as she does so. That is far more likely to be a manifestation of a spell Dorukan cast than a spell Celia knows...for one of her few sorcerer spell picks...and yet did not cast when she was at risk of being cornered and permanently killed by the Thieves' Guild.

As far as counterspell, AIUI, a counterspell is a casting of the same spell as the spell being countered but cast in some manner that cancels the original. So they can be counted as an instance of the same spell, only note that they are a counterspell.

That is correct (e.g., a slow can be used to counterspell haste, Dispel Magic can be used to counterspell anything).

Correct. There are 3 ways to counterspell:
- Cast the same spell that you're trying to counter
- Cast Dispel Magic or Greater Dispel Magic (but then you must make a caster level check)
- With the Improved Counterspell feat, cast any spell of the same school and the same or a higher level.

In the comic, there's no way to know which method is used.

Since there's no way to tell WHICH type of method is being used for counterspell, I'm inclined to rule it that in this comic, it's considered its own spell. That just makes things easier. Does that sound like an idea?

I haven't done a character count - but yeah, that is one massive drawback of one table. It is still possible to use smaller tables (if you think there are a better format), but the sort-function will not work. It would theoretically be possible to reduce it by using link shortening services, but I would prefer not using any (since it adds additional work, and it is less transparent - I don't see where the link is going.)

One other thing I would change: I would massively reduce the number of spoiler tags used. I would use maximum one to hide the complete thing (if even), but certainly not for each letter. It just adds so much work to expand the whole thing (and imo doesn't add any value).

Cleaning the links doesn't add that much characters - it adds less than three per link [If you use only the strip number as link-text] (for now - going into 4-digit comics soonish that might change). With even more information it is a relatively small percentage, but it adds around 1.8k characters as of now (and that number isn't going to get smaller).

Character count is 35K at the moment, and I'd like to put in spell definitions. I don't want to mess with shortening links either. Perhaps I could split the table in half, and people could look at A - L on one and M - Z on the other? *shrug* Not sure.

For the Alphabetized spoilers, I figured this could be utilized so that if I were to come here looking for a certain spell, I could easily scroll to the letter and open the spoiler to find it, where as having it be one massive list makes for more sifting. Is it really that unwieldy with the spoilers?

I guess you're right on the character count, I forgot the forum adds the code on either side of the link automatically, so I was counting them as an addition. Still, 1.8K is about 4% of the characters used, so that's nothing to shrug at. I'm anticipating this will get bigger than one post, so I'll need to find a long term solution for the inclimate split. Perhaps that A-L, M-Z thing I mentioned earlier.

[Gwynfrid]

Since there's no way to tell WHICH type of method is being used for counterspell, I'm inclined to rule it that in this comic, it's considered its own spell. That just makes things easier. Does that sound like an idea?

It's practical, but from a rules point of view, it just sounds like a beginner's mistake. I don't mind much myself, but if you go that way, be prepared for others to comment negatively on it.

[TheWombatOfDoom]

It's practical, but from a rules point of view, it just sounds like a beginner's mistake. I don't mind much myself, but if you go that way, be prepared for others to comment negatively on it.

Hmmm...maybe I'll put it in the FAQ's, and refer people to that?

[Kish]

Hmmm...maybe I'll put it in the FAQ's, and refer people to that?

If you're going with that, I'd suggest changing the thread title to something like, "The OotS Supernatural Ability Compendium."

As it is, people are likely to keep clicking on the thread expecting a compendium of purely spells.

[TheWombatOfDoom]

If you're going with that, I'd suggest changing the thread title to something like, "The OotS Supernatural Ability Compendium."

As it is, people are likely to keep clicking on the thread expecting a compendium of purely spells.

Well, to be accurate, counterspell is a spell, just not like other spells in that it's function is different. As in, you always use a spell to counterspell. I'm trying to find if the Giant has said anything on counterspells, as that would make things easier. Since he doesn't always go by RAW, and since counter spell is easiest when depicted as its own spell in comic, I feel my decision is justified.

But I see your point with things like class features, and other things. I don't like "supernatural ability" phrase...maybe something else? Perhaps there should be a secondary compendium for class features and skills, and keep things like turn undead and such there, then put in the FAQ why they aren't here?

Or perhaps change it to "Magic Compendium"?

[Gwynfrid]

See, I think rules terminology is not a particularly interesting or useful debate, other than in the context of, you know, the game that the rule define. But it's difficult to avoid, because it's a common reference for people. Kish just gave us a good example of what I was referring to when I predicted objections.

Don't look to Rich's statements to back your ideas about rules : Rich kind of goes out of his way to avoid getting dragged in such discussions (and good for him, I say).

I think if you must be precise, you have to give counterpelling it's own category, on par with "cleric class features". It's not strictly a spell, not a supernatural ability, not a cleric or wizard class feature. It's just a game mechanic that allows using spells in a nonstandard manner.

"Magic Compendium" is a fine title. Of course, it forces you to also list the magic items in the comic, but it's not like the prospect of more work is going to stop you, right?

[TheWombatOfDoom]

See, I think rules terminology is not a particularly interesting or useful debate, other than in the context of, you know, the game that the rule define. But it's difficult to avoid, because it's a common reference for people. Kish just gave us a good example of what I was referring to when I predicted objections.

Don't look to Rich's statements to back your ideas about rules : Rich kind of goes out of his way to avoid getting dragged in such discussions (and good for him, I say).

I think if you must be precise, you have to give counterpelling it's own category, on par with "cleric class features". It's not strictly a spell, not a supernatural ability, not a cleric or wizard class feature. It's just a game mechanic that allows using spells in a nonstandard manner.

"Magic Compendium" is a fine title. Of course, it forces you to also list the magic items in the comic, but it's not like the prospect of more work is going to stop you, right?

That's just it - Rich doesn't follow the rules of the comics, so I gathered that counterspell works for plot more than for rules. Either way counterspell uses a spell, so...

How does this look:

Why is "Counterspell" listed as it's own spell when it's not really in D & D?

Counterspell is significant in that it uses a spell slot to counter a spell, but is not a specific spell itself. A spell can be countered several different ways, but since the comic does not depict which way the caster is using to counter a spell, and since a spell is being used to counter a spell, I thought it prudent to just list it as its own spell (especially since that is what the caster names it when he or she is casting, similar to other spells and abilities).
-

[rodneyAnonymous]

Well, I'd like to instead have them quoted on this list, rather than link them off site. Get all the information in one place, yeah?

Spell effects are rarely described in the strip, and the descriptions are sometimes quite long, I don't think copying them here is realistic. Links to d20srd.org would be fine.

[Gwynfrid]

That's just it - Rich doesn't follow the rules of the comics, so I gathered that counterspell works for plot more than for rules. Either way counterspell uses a spell, so...

How does this look:

I think it will be OK, except for the worst nitpickers. This being the GitP forum, there will be some of these, but I wouldn't worry too much about them.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Looking at the list of unknowns, you have several (summons?) listed for when paladins are pulling their mounts out of hammerspace (with an extra dig at Pokémon thrown in). Probably you should either remove them or add the times V did the same trick with Blackwing (for consistency).

[Sniffnoy]

There's a countered Break Enchantment in #800.

Edit: Wait, are we including mentions of spells or not? There's a mention of Haste in #597.

Further edit: Also, Disguise Self is mentioned in #233.

Also, formatting note: Holy Smite has the numbers separated by a line break rather than a comma.

[rodneyAnonymous]

Since there's no way to tell WHICH type of method is being used for counterspell, I'm inclined to rule it that in this comic, it's considered its own spell. That just makes things easier. Does that sound like an idea?

Recommend putting it in scare quotes, e.g. "Counterspell", since that isn't a spell. (Yes, in the sense that you always use a spell it is, but unlike the other entries that isn't the name of a specific spell.)


Miscellaneous:

1. counterspell, fireball, and ghostform are each one word
2. the #811 inflict moderate wounds spell is quickened
3. there are no metamagic feats called "enhance spell" or "greater spell", the names of the spells cast in strips #504 and #563 are Vaarsuvius’ enhanced scrying and Vaarsuvius’ greater animal messenger
4. similarly, the #638 entry says (greater) under "Create Undead" but the name of the spell is create greater undead, and (delayed blast) under "Fireball" but the name of the spell is delayed blast fireball *
5. also similarly, the name of the spell in #848 is mass resist energy (or resist energy, mass if you want to alphabetize it under R) (corrected)
6. also also similarly, the name of the spell in #638 is energy immunity (from the splatbook Complete Arcane too) with "acid" chosen as the type
7. there is another psionic dimension door cast in #931
8. under "Sleep" after #10 there is a parenthetical note (mentioned, no cast); should the same note be made on spells mentioned in #49, and on the power word: blind spell in #306?
9. Xykon casts mass hold person (which is a different spell than hold person, not a modified cast of the same spell; as on his spell list) in #659
10. if this compendium lists class abilities and not just spells, there should be a "Lay on Hands – (Paladin Class Feature)" mentioned in #219 and used in #518 (pretty sure there are others)
11. turn undead is a paladin class ability also, not just cleric, and Thanh uses it in #514
12. command undead is an evil cleric ability, not a spell (turn undead's double-level effect is destroy, and rebuke undead's double-level effect is command)
13. the animate rope spell that Pompey casts in #342 is silent (silent spell is a metamagic feat)
14. the spell death ward is mentioned (although not by name) in #672
15. under "Unknown", the spell Zz'dtri casts in #795 is probably another vitriolic sphere
16. under "Unknown", the spell in #586 is probably cone of cold (the effect matches #41 and not ray of frost, which is a cantrip with a very different-looking effect, which we see in #542; also ray and cone effects are mechanically and visually distinct)
17. under "Unknown", the burning effect in #906 is probably not a spell at all, Malack bursts into flames because of the sun
18. under "Unknown", the spell Leeky casts in #344 is probably animate plants
19. under "Unknown", the ability Durkon uses in #429 is probably turn undead, given the cone-of-light-from-holy-symbol effect
20. under "Unknown", the effect in #730 is probably a Soulknife (prestige class) using her mind blade ability
21. under "Unknown", Qarr is probably using his scorching ray ability in strips #792 and #797, and that's probably the spell Vaarsuvius casts in #923
22. under "Unknown", in #890 Elan is using song of freedom (bard ability, not a spell)
23. under "Unknown", the spell in #833 is probably gate; plane shift can't create a portal that stays open for a while like that
24. under "Unknown", the spell in #835 is probably plane shift; Durkon is not high enough level to cast gate
25. under "Unknown", one of the spells Xykon casts in #448 is probably magic missile
26. under "Unknown", the spell Nale casts in #810 is probably enervation since wands can only contain a single spell
27. under "Unknown", the various instances of a paladin summoning their mount is not a spell and not exactly even its own named ability (it's just one of the facets of the special mount paladin ability); I guess the consistent way to list them would be under "Special Mount (Summon) – (Paladin Class Feature)", but I agree with not listing them at all
28. under "Unknown", the spell Malack cast off-panel before #856 is probably create undead, although that spell (and Vaarsuvius's earlier create greater undead spell) evidently ignores the "only at night" restriction, and the casting time is greatly reduced (which is an error Rich acknowledged for Tsukiko)
29. the gag spell Nero casts in #903 should probably be added to the "Unknown" list

* Fireball and delayed blast fireball (or bull's strength and mass bull's strength, or lesser restoration and restoration, and so on) are two different spells, not alternate versions of the same spell. For consistency they should have separate entry lists, like the various cure and inflict wounds (light/moderate/etc) spells, and the various summon monster spells.

For example, the cure light wounds entries would look like this instead:

Cure Light Wounds -
6, 77, 455, 874

Cure Light Wounds, Mass -
647, 886, 900

..the create undead entries would look like this:

Create Greater Undead -
638

Create Undead -
708, 856

...and the "mass resist acid" entry would look like this:

Resist Energy, Mass -
848 (acid)

[orrion]

[*] also similarly, the name of the #848 spell is mass resist acid (or resist acid, mass if you want to alphabetize it under R...

Are you sure that's not Mass Resist Energy, and Durkon just chose Acid?


For the thread - Forgot V's casting of Mass Bear's Endurance (comic 427).

[rodneyAnonymous]

Are you sure that's not Mass Resist Energy, and Durkon just chose Acid?

Durkon says "Mass Resist Acid", though you're right, it is probably mass resist energy with "acid" as the chosen type (there is no such spell mass resist acid, but there is no mass resist energy either, it must be homebrew **corrected per below, the spell mass resist energy is listed in Complete Arcane**).

I think the actual name of the spell should be listed if we know what it is for sure. (Something like cure itchy wounds is probably, but not definitely, cure light wounds, so it stays like that. Ditto Thor's might and righteous might, though they should maybe get notes to that effect.)

Mass this, greater that, and lesser the other are separate spells than this, that, and the other, and thus should be listed separately.

[orrion]

Durkon says "Mass Resist Acid", though you're right, it is probably resist energy with "acid" as the chosen type (there is no such spell mass resist acid, but there is no mass resist energy either, it must be homebrew).

Apparently there is in Complete Arcane, though it is suspect, as it's quite low level (Resist Energy is a second level spell).

Anyway, I would still treat the one in the comic as Mass Resist Energy, and then denote it as Acid in parentheses or whatever.


Also, Poison cast in 453.

Arcane Sight is in effect and named here 693.

[ChristianSt]

THANK YOU. That saves me a TON of tedious work. Merry Christmas!

You're welcome . I had around ten minutes fun to crack out a Perl script. And it was much easier than to permute the tables in the Index of the Giants comments .

Well, I'd like to instead have them quoted on this list, rather than link them off site. Get all the information in one place, yeah?

I think the only useful way is to provide a link to the SRD (d20srd.org).
Any basic level information on the spell is so simple it is covered with that what happens in the comic or the spell name alone.
Any more complicated information just needs the content from the SRD to be really useful. If you want to try to copy all the necessary information then a) you have a really hard work to do, and I don't think the forum is a good place to do so. b) I need to trust your ability to copy that information - it is just much easier to skip the middleman (you) and go directly to the source (SRD - or at least a source that is probably more proofread/maintained than a side-project of a project of one webcomic).
For example I don't even play D&D and if I really want to know what a spell does (at least on a more concrete level than the strip provides) I go to the SRD anyway. From what I know the SRD is the best source you can have for D&D rules, and d20srd.org is the best compilation of the SRD, so I think it is bad to just not use it, if you want that information.

For the Alphabetized spoilers, I figured this could be utilized so that if I were to come here looking for a certain spell, I could easily scroll to the letter and open the spoiler to find it, where as having it be one massive list makes for more sifting. Is it really that unwieldy with the spoilers?

The problem imo is it actually eliminates the fastest possibility: Searching the page (for example with CTRL+F in most browsers).
If I want to search for Mass Death Ward I need to open the spoiler box for "D" and than scan the list inside it for Death Ward. Even worse if I'm not sure if it is sorted as Death Ward (mass) or Mass Death Ward [so instead opening "M" first]. If a search doesn't hit any result for Mass Death Ward, the next step would just to search for Death Ward -> done, I don't need to open any spoiler tags for it. Especially if I want to search for multiple different spells it is just a major pain to unroll 5+ spoiler boxes, just to do an search anyway (especially with letters containing 20 or more spells).

That is the reason I would drop the spoiler tags entirely - the thread has a pretty concrete topic with the list being the complete content. One reason I think the Geekery thread doesn't have spoilers (the Index or the MitD-thread has spoiler tags, but I think those add enough value to make it worthwhile - also those threads cover a much broader scope of content). I still can search it without manually expanding the spoilers if I view the page source, but that is not really that comfortable.

I'm fine with providing methods to separate the letters - so if you like add horizontal lines or space between letters, just don't put them inside spoilers.
But even without it, I don't think it is much easier (if even) to scroll to the spoiler tag "M" instead scrolling to a word starting with "M".

If you think the scope of the content gets bigger than an alphabetized list of spell, then it is probably better to put that in one Spoiler tag, so that you don't make the overall post hard to process, but separating the content further doesn't make that much sense imo.

[orrion]

Blah, had others and lost the post.

Anyway, going over some of the stuff in Unknown Spells now.

Laurin in 928 is using Body Adjustment, level 2 Psionic Power. Geekery thread agrees.

Celia in 70 is using Lightning Bolt. Geekery agrees.

Redcloak in 120 is likely using Light, a 0th level Cleric spell.

In 145, I don't see an unknown light spell. Just V using Lightning Bolt, Fireball(s), and Magic Missile.

166 is likely a Protection from Arrows spell (2nd level) activating on Samantha. This is corroborated by Haley being able to shoot her with arrows after V dispels her a few comics later, and the arrow's behavior is similar to other such effects we know to be from PoA.

Pretty sure 193 is Xykon using Animate Dead (4th level spell).

344 looks like Animate Plants from Leeky, which is a 7th level Druid spell. He can cast that according to the level the Geekery thread marks him as, but animating that many trees (classified as Huge plants, from what I can tell) may be questionable. Nonetheless, it's still the best explanation I can see for that scene.

My guess on 369 is Redcloak using Shatter, a 2nd level cleric spell, on the door. The SRD states Shatter can "sunder a single, solid non-magical object." Shatter looks good for Xykon in 370 for the crystal as well.

429 looks like Durkon using Turn Undead, yes, which is a supernatural ability of a Good cleric. Xykon hitting Haley is probably Finger of Death (7th level), the same spell he uses against Roy in the next comic.

The heal spell in 436 could be any of the Cure spells. It's probably Moderate because the clerics later tell Haley they don't have access to 3rd level spells, but can't tell for sure.

In 440, the Death Knight is using Abyssal Blast, a once-a-day ability from Forgotten Realms.

In 448, the second spell is definitely Magic Missile. First could be Vampiric Touch, but can't tell for sure.

583 is the spell Veil, a 6th level Wizard spell.

And that's as far as I'm getting tonight.

[dtilque]

First I have to say that I really like the table idea that ChristianSt proposed. It would combine all the info into one convenient resortable list. You wouldn't need a separate crosslisting by caster. The character limit is unfortunate.

One solution, not perfect but perhaps the best we can do, is to make more than one table, but as few as you can get away with. For instance, you could have one table for the first 500 (or whatever number keeps the count under the limit) strips. That way you could probably get everything into about 3 tables, at least right now.

As for Counterspell, I think they should be listed under the spell being countered. Yes, I understand that it's not always a casting of that spell, but there's an advantage over listing them all together. That is, it tells you what spell is being countered, rather than just the fact that some spell or other is being countered.

I don't think that every mention of a spell belongs in this list. It just doesn't seem like there'd be any advantage or usefulness of that. Plus the list is long enough as it is. Also, there'd be no caster to put it under. But if you want it, go for it.

I agree with linking to the d20srd database rather than duplicating the info here. One of the points of hyperlinks is to avoid such duplication. If you go the table route, I wouldn't even put links to individual spells, since that would add characters and thus decrease the number of strips you could put in a single table. Just put a link to the spell list in the intro.

The spell in 810 cast by Nale from the wand is definitely Enervation. Wands can only take a single type of spell, and he already used an Enervation from that wand in 806. You can tell it's the same wand by the death's head decoration.

706 has three instances of Dancing Lights. Two failed due to the caster being killed in midspell and one counterspelled.

[dtilque]

Also, I don't know if you want to include a Summon Monster for the fish that Roy caught with his grandfather.

Hmmm, which summon do you think it would have been?

Summon Bigger Fish. Some fisherman somewhere was disappointed in the size of the fish he caught.

[ChristianSt]

First I have to say that I really like the table idea that ChristianSt proposed. It would combine all the info into one convenient resortable list. You wouldn't need a separate crosslisting by caster. The character limit is unfortunate.

One solution, not perfect but perhaps the best we can do, is to make more than one table, but as few as you can get away with. For instance, you could have one table for the first 500 (or whatever number keeps the count under the limit) strips. That way you could probably get everything into about 3 tables, at least right now.

Problem with the table solution is that is only sortable (or at least really helpful sortable) when all content is inside one table. If you split it among multiple tables (say for example up to 500 and over 500) and sort by another criteria (like alphabet) you have that randomly alternating between the tables.

So it more or less comes down what option looks better - especially with added information the list will hit the character limit rather sooner than later. One major change the table version has it needs to list each spell name for each casting (so itself massively increasing character count). Another possible use of tables would be to make a table for each spell casted - so it would be possible to sort that along different categories. It would also eliminate the need to duplicate the spell names and allows to use different columns for each spell:

Dimension Door
{table=head]Strip|Caster|Note
795|ZZ'dtri|
811|Nale|
935|Laurin| (Psionic)
[/table]

Dimensional Anchor
{table=head]Strip|Caster|Target|Note|Hit?
624|Vaarsuvius|Quarr||Yes
629|Vaarsuvius|ABD||No
652|Vaarsuvius|Xykon|(quickened)|No
935|Vaarsuvius|Laurin||Yes
[/table]

As for Counterspell, I think they should be listed under the spell being countered. Yes, I understand that it's not always a casting of that spell, but there's an advantage over listing them all together. That is, it tells you what spell is being countered, rather than just the fact that some spell or other is being countered.

I think counterspells should have there own category (either as a own spell "Counterspell" or maybe even outside of the normal list) - the normal spell already is mentioned (it probably doesn't hurt to add a note to say it got countered), but it is another spell that gets cast (I would rather add a second note to the counterspells to say which spell it has countered).
I personally find a list of counterspells more useful than to artificially increasing the count of the countered spell: If someone casts "Haste" and another caster uses a "Counterspell", then why should we list two "Haste"-spells?

I don't think that every mention of a spell belongs in this list. It just doesn't seem like there'd be any advantage or usefulness of that. Plus the list is long enough as it is. Also, there'd be no caster to put it under. But if you want it, go for it.

As for listing all spells that only gets mentioned: I'm fine either way, adding them establishes which spells might potentially be available in the OotS-universe - which might be a useful information in itself. It just is the question whether we want them to include or not (so what is the scope of the thread) and if we want to do the work to include them (since someone needs to add them). As to the no caster problem: It is possible to just make an empty table cell, or put a "-" or "only mentioned" in there (if we even switch to tables).

Edit: to make it easier, we could also add a rule that we only track up to one "mentioned" for each spell and only if that spell was not cast.

[rodneyAnonymous]

If someone casts "Haste" and another caster uses a "Counterspell", then why should we list two "Haste"-spells?

Another strong reason not to do it that way is that in some cases the spell was definitely not countered by casting the same spell. For example, Redcloak can't cast shout (it's an arcane spell), so he must have counterspelled Tsukiko using a different method.

[dtilque]

Problem with the table solution is that is only sortable (or at least really helpful sortable) when all content is inside one table. If you split it among multiple tables (say for example up to 500 and over 500) and sort by another criteria (like alphabet) you have that randomly alternating between the tables.

There are three main data items for each entry: strip number, spell name, caster. Choose which one is most important and sort the entire list by that. Then break up that list into a small number of fairly large and roughly equal-sized subtables.

If the initial sort is by strip number, the subtables can be close to the maximum size allowed, since most of the additions will be to the last one. The subtables should be maybe a couple hundred characters short of the max to allow for corrections and missed spells.

If the initial sort is by name of spell or caster, the subtables should be about two-thirds the maximum, since there will be additions to all of them. Future extensive reorganizations will be minimized by giving all subtables room to expand.

Another possible use of tables would be to make a table for each spell casted - so it would be possible to sort that along different categories. It would also eliminate the need to duplicate the spell names and allows to use different columns for each spell:

I strongly advise against this. The value of tables goes up the more info is in each one. Separating the info numerous small tables decreases their utility.

Suppose someone wants to get a list of all spells cast by a particular person. If the spell list is broken up into a small number (say 3 or 4) of subtables, they just have to resort those few tables and then collect the particular parts they're interested in. But if it's broken up into several dozen subtables, their work gets lots harder.

As for the extra data (empowered, failed, counterspelled, from a scroll, etc), that can be minimized by abbreviating to one or two letters. Not quite as user-friendly, but shouldn't be too bad.

[Copperdragon]

Well, that's the first time Forcecage is depicted, so it could just be an art change. Also, V's cage is different from Xykon's, in that Xykon picks the barred version of the spell, while V picks the wall of force version.

Nope, Xykon explicitly states it's a different version of Force Cage - a moderatly escapable one. Besides, what Miko did should not have been possible based on the spell's description, as it has Force Walls/Bars on all sides.
You can keep it as it is - but that would go directly against the rules and what is explicitly stated in the comic by the character who cast it. Also, there's no reason to assume Xykon is just making something up.

[ChristianSt]

There are three main data items for each entry: strip number, spell name, caster. Choose which one is most important and sort the entire list by that. Then break up that list into a small number of fairly large and roughly equal-sized subtables.

If the initial sort is by strip number, the subtables can be close to the maximum size allowed, since most of the additions will be to the last one. The subtables should be maybe a couple hundred characters short of the max to allow for corrections and missed spells.

If the initial sort is by name of spell or caster, the subtables should be about two-thirds the maximum, since there will be additions to all of them. Future extensive reorganizations will be minimized by giving all subtables room to expand.



I strongly advise against this. The value of tables goes up the more info is in each one. Separating the info numerous small tables decreases their utility.

Suppose someone wants to get a list of all spells cast by a particular person. If the spell list is broken up into a small number (say 3 or 4) of subtables, they just have to resort those few tables and then collect the particular parts they're interested in. But if it's broken up into several dozen subtables, their work gets lots harder.

As for the extra data (empowered, failed, counterspelled, from a scroll, etc), that can be minimized by abbreviating to one or two letters. Not quite as user-friendly, but shouldn't be too bad.

While you are certainly right with some of your arguments, it doesn't change the fact that a sortable table that is split has only minor value if you want a list in another sort order. It is only viable if you are interested in small chunks of data. And if there are only a really small amount of such tables, I think more than 3 tables would completely defeat the purpose in either case.

First of all - I wouldn't say the main data is strip number/spell name/caster.
The only really needed data is strip number/spell name. All data beyond that is pretty optional, but some are information I personally would like to see: caster, target, whether the spell is successful are the three categories that I have in mind - but other people might find other information useful, too (like if a scroll was used).

I'm doing some quick possible character count (=CC) calculations (there are currently 500 spells listed in the OP + 120 in the Unknown Spells - especially if we list all mentioned spells that number could increase drastically):

• The current character count per spell is around 65, resulting in a CC of 40k - but this is only the link to the strip.
• Adding the spell name, which is necessary for a meaningful table, would increase the CC/spell count by the spell name, I think a good average is 10 characters, making a total of 75. This already increases the CC to 47k
• Adding caster information adds perhaps another 7 - the target I would average with 5 chars, because some spells are untargeted. (I personally think that if we include caster we should include the target.) This brings the CC/spell to 87. This triggers the first split with a total CC of 54k.
• Adding the spell information (which I think would be a good idea) would add another around 55 (links are a major factor character limit wise, and possible that the 55 is too optimistic here and a 60 or 65 would be much more realistic) CC/spell. This nearly needs another split with a total CC of 88k
• This would leave another max 18 CC/spell before hitting 99k. It might already be that there are actually less characters, because I went more or less for a lower bound calculation. Also each added spell further increases the total CC.

This all excludes all other content, I probably would add around 1k for other stuff the post contains, and for maintaining/editing I would probably try to leave some space empty (not that much, maximal another 1k, but maybe 1k total depending on what other stuff there is to include).

I wouldn't find big tables bad - I said only that small tables have some benefit, too. Which is the better for the thread I really don't know. I would personally use that what the thread maintainer (so TheWombatOfDoom) thinks is better. If I where the thread maintainer I probably would (at the moment) go with the smaller table, since it allows much more freedom on a per-spell basis:
It is possible to add arbitrary table columns on a per spell basis. For example it is possible to add columns "content" and "Scroll?" to Sending spells. Or seven columns to Prismatic Spray which colored beam did hit which target. This allows to freely add columns later and on a much more incremental basis. Wanting to add some column to all/most spells? It is possible to change one spell at a time, the better if it is information that not all spells want (say I want to add the target - not all spells have a target, with one giant table I need to alter all spells nevertheless). It is even possible to list some spells without a table and use another structure for them, if there is a better structure for them.

The obvious best way to store that data (some sort of data base probably featuring SQL) would solve such problems, but would require external tools to work (and without administrative work would be the least user-friendly option).


There is no need either way to really leave empty space: moving rows from one table to another table is pretty easy as long as both have the same columns. And moving wholes spells to another post isn't complicated either.

I'm personally strongly against using abbreviations.


For spell description of Homebrew spells (like Familicide or Tsukiko's Amazing Wight-Making Spell, which is casted off-panel somewhere before 516 which is imo missing from your list) I would use a link to the Giant's comment on it, if available.

[TheWombatOfDoom]

Counterspell Conversation:

Very minor, but four: "Some spells specifically counter each other, especially when they have diametrically opposed effects." (And say so explicitly in the spell description, e.g. haste and slow.)

Recommend putting it in scare quotes, e.g. "Counterspell", since that isn't a spell. (Yes, in the sense that you always use a spell it is, but unlike the other entries that isn't the name of a specific spell.)

I think counterspells should have there own category (either as a own spell "Counterspell" or maybe even outside of the normal list) - the normal spell already is mentioned (it probably doesn't hurt to add a note to say it got countered), but it is another spell that gets cast (I would rather add a second note to the counterspells to say which spell it has countered).
I personally find a list of counterspells more useful than to artificially increasing the count of the countered spell: If someone casts "Haste" and another caster uses a "Counterspell", then why should we list two "Haste"-spells?

Another strong reason not to do it that way is that in some cases the spell was definitely not countered by casting the same spell. For example, Redcloak can't cast shout (it's an arcane spell), so he must have counterspelled Tsukiko using a different method.

For now, I'll put a "Counterspell" up. If and when we put specific casters casting, we'll go more into if something was countered, or mentioned, or what. For now, I just want a more or less complete list of the actual spells before we further the process of data entry. I look forward to it.

Format of Thread Conversation: I'll be discussing this more next post. Got a lot of responces that I need to work at first, and consider the conversation a bit more.

---

3

Looking at the list of unknowns, you have several (summons?) listed for when paladins are pulling their mounts out of hammerspace (with an extra dig at Pokémon thrown in). Probably you should either remove them or add the times V did the same trick with Blackwing (for consistency).

It says that they go to the celestial realm in a few of the comics. So I figured they were summoning them from there, perhaps? Blackwing was a different kind of joke, I felt. Can anyone else weigh in?

* Fireball and delayed blast fireball (or bull's strength and mass bull's strength, or lesser restoration and restoration, and so on) are two different spells, not alternate versions of the same spell. For consistency they should have separate entry lists, like the various cure and inflict wounds (light/moderate/etc) spells, and the various summon monster spells.

For example, the cure light wounds entries would look like this instead:

..the create undead entries would look like this:

...and the "mass resist acid" entry would look like this:

Mass this, greater that, and lesser the other are separate spells than this, that, and the other, and thus should be listed separately.

Agreed. I'll have to go through and rectify this next. Good call.

Durkon says "Mass Resist Acid", though you're right, it is probably mass resist energy with "acid" as the chosen type (there is no such spell mass resist acid, but there is no mass resist energy either, it must be homebrew **corrected per below, the spell mass resist energy is listed in Complete Arcane**).

I think the actual name of the spell should be listed if we know what it is for sure. (Something like cure itchy wounds is probably, but not definitely, cure light wounds, so it stays like that. Ditto Thor's might and righteous might, though they should maybe get notes to that effect.)

On mass resist acid, I was going through the PHB yesterday and hadn't found it, so I was curious if it was a Protection from Acid spell or something of the sort. This clears that up nicely.

As for the "actual name of the spell", I included variant spells based on the universe that the comic is based in - one of jokes. In that light, Summon Boot and Cure Itchy Wounds are jokes, but legitamate spells in the OotS universe. Especially since the comic doesn't go exactly by SRD anyway. In that light, I feel we should keep them as they are, even if they are similar to other spells. The best I could do would be for something like Thor's Might (a.k.a Righteous Might).

As for listing all spells that only gets mentioned: I'm fine either way, adding them establishes which spells might potentially be available in the OotS-universe - which might be a useful information in itself. It just is the question whether we want them to include or not (so what is the scope of the thread) and if we want to do the work to include them (since someone needs to add them). As to the no caster problem: It is possible to just make an empty table cell, or put a "-" or "only mentioned" in there (if we even switch to tables).

Edit: to make it easier, we could also add a rule that we only track up to one "mentioned" for each spell and only if that spell was not cast.

I went with a yes, because it expands the universe a bit. If we need to illicit information from those spells later, I'd much rather already have them linked. I'm currently working on a transcription of the comic, so I'll be able to do a search of mentioned spells once that's complete, and that should quickly solve some things. the "-" solution would be fine.

As for the ruling, I'd prefer any spell referenced be input than to have it pointed out several times as a missed spell.

Nope, Xykon explicitly states it's a different version of Force Cage - a moderatly escapable one. Besides, what Miko did should not have been possible based on the spell's description, as it has Force Walls/Bars on all sides.
You can keep it as it is - but that would go directly against the rules and what is explicitly stated in the comic by the character who cast it. Also, there's no reason to assume Xykon is just making something up.

Not that I doubt you, but I can't find the dialogue that references your claim. Could you please give me a link reference and panel number? You're right, it doesn't match up to the spell description.

---

3

Information Processing:

Spoiler: DONE!

Show

There's a countered Break Enchantment in #800.

Edit: Wait, are we including mentions of spells or not? There's a mention of Haste in #597.

Further edit: Also, Disguise Self is mentioned in #233.

Also, formatting note: Holy Smite has the numbers separated by a line break rather than a comma.

Miscellaneous:

2. counterspell, fireball, and ghostform are each one word
3. the #811 inflict moderate wounds spell is quickened
4. there are no metamagic feats called "enhance spell" or "greater spell", the names of the spells cast in strips #504 and #563 are Vaarsuvius’ enhanced scrying and Vaarsuvius’ greater animal messenger
5. similarly, the #638 entry says (greater) under "Create Undead" but the name of the spell is create greater undead, and (delayed blast) under "Fireball" but the name of the spell is delayed blast fireball *
6. also similarly, the name of the spell in #848 is mass resist energy (or resist energy, mass if you want to alphabetize it under R) (corrected)
7. also also similarly, the name of the spell in #638 is energy immunity (from the splatbook Complete Arcane too) with "acid" chosen as the type
8. there is another psionic dimension door cast in #931
9. under "Sleep" after #10 there is a parenthetical note (mentioned, no cast); should the same note be made on spells mentioned in #49, and on the power word: blind spell in #306?
10. Xykon casts mass hold person (which is a different spell than hold person, not a modified cast of the same spell; as on his spell list) in #659
11. if this compendium lists class abilities and not just spells, there should be a "Lay on Hands – (Paladin Class Feature)" mentioned in #219 and used in #518 (pretty sure there are others)
12. turn undead is a paladin class ability also, not just cleric, and Thanh uses it in #514
13. command undead is an evil cleric ability, not a spell (turn undead's double-level effect is destroy, and rebuke undead's double-level effect is command)
14. the animate rope spell that Pompey casts in #342 is silent (silent spell is a metamagic feat)
15. the spell death ward is mentioned (although not by name) in #672
16. under "Unknown", the spell Zz'dtri casts in #795 is probably another vitriolic sphere
17. under "Unknown", the spell in #586 is probably cone of cold (the effect matches #41 and not ray of frost, which is a cantrip with a very different-looking effect, which we see in #542; also ray and cone effects are mechanically and visually distinct)
18. under "Unknown", the burning effect in #906 is probably not a spell at all, Malack bursts into flames because of the sun
19. under "Unknown", the spell Leeky casts in #344 is probably animate plants
20. under "Unknown", the ability Durkon uses in #429 is probably turn undead, given the cone-of-light-from-holy-symbol effect
21. under "Unknown", the effect in #730 is probably a Soulknife (prestige class) using her mind blade ability
22. under "Unknown", Qarr is probably using his scorching ray ability in strips #792 and #797, and that's probably the spell Vaarsuvius casts in #923
23. under "Unknown", in #890 Elan is using song of freedom (bard ability, not a spell)
24. under "Unknown", the spell in #833 is probably gate; plane shift can't create a portal that stays open for a while like that
25. under "Unknown", the spell in #835 is probably plane shift; Durkon is not high enough level to cast gate
26. under "Unknown", one of the spells Xykon casts in #448 is probably magic missile
27. under "Unknown", the spell Nale casts in #810 is probably enervation since wands can only contain a single spell
28. under "Unknown", the various instances of a paladin summoning their mount is not a spell and not exactly even its own named ability (it's just one of the facets of the special mount paladin ability); I guess the consistent way to list them would be under "Special Mount (Summon) – (Paladin Class Feature)", but I agree with not listing them at all
29. under "Unknown", the spell Malack cast off-panel before #856 is probably create undead, although that spell (and Vaarsuvius's earlier create greater undead spell) evidently ignores the "only at night" restriction, and the casting time is greatly reduced (which is an error Rich acknowledged for Tsukiko)
30. the gag spell Nero casts in #903 should probably be added to the "Unknown" list

For the thread - Forgot V's casting of Mass Bear's Endurance (comic 427).

Also, Poison cast in 453.

Arcane Sight is in effect and named here 693.

Blah, had others and lost the post.

Anyway, going over some of the stuff in Unknown Spells now.

Laurin in 928 is using Body Adjustment, level 2 Psionic Power. Geekery thread agrees.

Celia in 70 is using Lightning Bolt. Geekery agrees.

Redcloak in 120 is likely using Light, a 0th level Cleric spell.

In 145, I don't see an unknown light spell. Just V using Lightning Bolt, Fireball(s), and Magic Missile.

166 is likely a Protection from Arrows spell (2nd level) activating on Samantha. This is corroborated by Haley being able to shoot her with arrows after V dispels her a few comics later, and the arrow's behavior is similar to other such effects we know to be from PoA.

Pretty sure 193 is Xykon using Animate Dead (4th level spell).

344 looks like Animate Plants from Leeky, which is a 7th level Druid spell. He can cast that according to the level the Geekery thread marks him as, but animating that many trees (classified as Huge plants, from what I can tell) may be questionable. Nonetheless, it's still the best explanation I can see for that scene.

My guess on 369 is Redcloak using Shatter, a 2nd level cleric spell, on the door. The SRD states Shatter can "sunder a single, solid non-magical object." Shatter looks good for Xykon in 370 for the crystal as well.

429 looks like Durkon using Turn Undead, yes, which is a supernatural ability of a Good cleric. Xykon hitting Haley is probably Finger of Death (7th level), the same spell he uses against Roy in the next comic.

The heal spell in 436 could be any of the Cure spells. It's probably Moderate because the clerics later tell Haley they don't have access to 3rd level spells, but can't tell for sure.

In 440, the Death Knight is using Abyssal Blast, a once-a-day ability from Forgotten Realms.

In 448, the second spell is definitely Magic Missile. First could be Vampiric Touch, but can't tell for sure.

583 is the spell Veil, a 6th level Wizard spell.

And that's as far as I'm getting tonight.

For spell description of Homebrew spells (like Familicide or Tsukiko's Amazing Wight-Making Spell, which is casted off-panel somewhere before 516 which is imo missing from your list) I would use a link to the Giant's comment on it, if available.

Thanks guys for the submissions! I'll be going through these, as well as formatting a little. I'll likely cross stuff off as I go through it.

[ChristianSt]

First of all I must add you make a pretty awesome job at managing the ongoing conversations! It makes it much easier to follow the thread as a whole!

It says that they go to the celestial realm in a few of the comics. So I figured they were summoning them from there, perhaps? Blackwing was a different kind of joke, I felt. Can anyone else weigh in?

Blackwing is a normal animal, that has gotten a few shiny features for being turned into a familiar. (The SRD mentions 'Summon familiar' but it is only cast one time: To bind the familiar to the caster - so you might want to add an off-panel cast of it.)

The celestial mount a paladin uses is summoned through the Spell-Like Ability "Special Mount" (it doesn't mentions how the actual summoning part is called - each summoning only lasts a limited amount of time (2h/paladin level) until the mount returns to the celestial realm and can be used once each day). So from a RAW point Miko has cast dozens of off-panel summonings of Windstriker, because even with paladin level 12 (which she doesn't have necessary, at least the Geekery pegs here at 10+ paladin) she could keep Windstriker with here 24/7 by casting it daily, but she would need to summon him daily (and the Pokémon references pretty much acts as an easy device to say "Summon Mount was used").
So it depends on whether you want to track Spell-Like Abilities or not.
(Also: How awesome is it to just link to the SRD, so everyone who is interested gets all needed information that is available )

The funny thing about Blackwing is that familiars (or other companions/animals) are pretty much in hammerspace while playing actual pen&paper RPGs. I have seen multiple occurrences that something wasn't mentioned for several sessions of a campaign until someone remembered about it (whether it is a familiar, a unwieldy piece of equipment or a npc) and the only thing the GM did was to say: "mh, probably was just their the whole time". And this is what actual happened to Blackwing until he got promoted to an actual character.


EDIT:

I went with a yes, because it expands the universe a bit. If we need to illicit information from those spells later, I'd much rather already have them linked. I'm currently working on a transcription of the comic, so I'll be able to do a search of mentioned spells once that's complete, and that should quickly solve some things. the "-" solution would be fine.

I don't know how complete your transcription is, but if it only context speech bubble text/spoken words (I probably would do it that way), there are some spells missing that are mentioned through text - most obvious example would be O-Chul's list of Xykon's spells in 670 (I haven't checked the OP whether they are included or not).

[orrion]

Well, that's the first time Forcecage is depicted, so it could just be an art change. Also, V's cage is different from Xykon's, in that Xykon picks the barred version of the spell, while V picks the wall of force version.

Actually, no. The first time V used Forcecage against the ABD, it was barred.

Not that I doubt you, but I can't find the dialogue that references your claim. Could you please give me a link reference and panel number? You're right, it doesn't match up to the spell description.

Xykon's Moderately Escapable Forcecage in panel 2.