General Anime/Manga Discussion: Where Are We Golgoing 13?

[Tengu_temp]

Samumenco was never a cool, serious story. It was an homage from the first episode.

Episodes 11 and 12 are too heavy on the parody front, but it's just those two. 13 and 14 feel more like the Torture arc again.

[HamHam]

Nobunaga the Fool seems to be trying to make me look like a fool for saying it was going to be good. So far its not, though still partially watchable. I'm hanging on because I dropped Aquarion EVOL while it was airing as well, but then loved it to bits when I went back and watched all of it. My faith is feeling misplaced here, but I'm sure it will get entertaining once Caesar arrives on the scene. If it doesn't, I'm dropping it right away. The internet can tell me if it gets better later like it did with Aquarion EVOL.

I've seen ep 1 and 2 so far and it's pretty meh. For example, the whole scene with Da Vinci and Joan on the ship was just confusing. First they establish that the point of this trip is to test the giant robot, but apparently them taking off with the giant robot is not okay? Like... what was supposed to have happened? They get to this other planet and test the robot in the trade city they are supposed to stay in? Just sloppy writing all around.

And the crazy character designs are interesting, but when we flashed to that council thing I no longer go the sense of "this is inaccurate because Japan has as distorted an idea of these western historical figures just like we do of non-western ones" and more "they just threw random stuff together because".

I also just prefer Nobunagun's design of actual regular looking middle aged guy Nobunaga. In fact, in general Nobunagun is by far the better of these two shows which is kinda amazing.

[Morph Bark]

So, episode 11! (Probably need to do the rest tomorrow)

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Uhm... well, that certainly didn't go the direction I wanted it to go? What was wrong with the "man who wants to make the world a better place" story? If the Torture people would have turned out to be just some lunatics who believe they need supervillains if there are superheroes or people who just acted the part for entertainment or so... but no, they are deranged torturing lunatics who want to turn the world evil and they are also cyborgs with help from ????

And now we got Flamengers... I'm not quite sure what emoticon to use. On the one hand: It's stupid. Like really over the top stupid. It's kind of sad how they went from such a cool, serious show to such an over the top parody... I mean, I'm still kind of entertained, if in a totally different way than before. And I'm curious enough to see what stunt they'll pull next. But it doesn't change the fact I think I'd rather have them stick with the original plot and end after a season... We'll see.

(Obviously, it at least got me hooked much more than most other stuff airing. Gunpla of course not included)

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I figure it's going to make a few more steps, and probably to do more with mecha. With each step, they manage to make it both more silly and more grim. I would honestly be kind of surprised if it didn't end up going the way of Gurren Lagann at least somewhat. Probably not like how that ended, but perhaps close to its halfway point.

[Mx.Silver]

Things I have learnt from episode 8 of Blassreiter:

• Nice things don't happen to people, not that you should be expecting them to after the previous seven episodes
• If you want to recruit people to your biomorphic-monster apocalypse cult team thing, you can't go wrong the 'poorly researched statements about evolution' + 'handjobs' combination
• Apparently the animation department still aren't entirely aware what side of the road Germans' drive.

Seriously though, it seems a fairly decent show so far (certainly compared to the dreck Gonzo have spewed out post-financial slump). The CGI motorbike parts still are a bit janky though, and I haven't gotten to the weird genre-shift it's meant to undergo yet so we'll see. In the voice acting news, Kenta Miyaka still doesn't sound like what you'd think he'd sound like (see also: Wolf's Rain). This also marks the 4th consecutive series I've seen that features Kana Hanazawa.

[VariSami]

After doing some GIS, I'm not sure. Stoic white-haired dudes are dime a dozen in anime. But on the other hand, those eyes are pretty specific, and we've had more obscure references in anime (Nostalgia Critic and Angry Video Game Nerd in Zettai Karen Children, anyone?). I'd give it a 50/50 chance.

Plus, the hair-do is quite specific. Most long, white hair on males in anime is just long and white and flows freely. The way it is combed behind his ear, under another lock of hair, is very characteristic. Also, besides the yellow, slit-pupiled eyes, there is the scar over his left eye.

If it was only the golden-yellow eyes and white hair, he might as well reference Raistlin Majere. :D

Edit: Added pictures for comparison.

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Oh, that picture does not really show Hachiya's scar too much...

[Winthur]

So I marathoned entire NGE+EoE in 2 days.

It was...

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pretty cool

Now it's Gundam 0079 time.

[Closet_Skeleton]

Samumenco was never a cool, serious story. It was an homage from the first episode.

Samunenco started out as a serious story, but 'cool' is not the world I would use.

Things I have learnt from episode 8 of Blassreiter:

This isn't my fault is it?

Its not the worst thing Gonzo has made. It pales compared to back when Gonzo made stuff that was actually good but they were making forgettable stuff like Solty Rei and Kiddy Grade back then too. Tower of Duraga, made in the same year was probably better.

My main problem is that I liked the 'taking out the monster with tactics, team work and conventional weaponry' that shows up in the first episode and then is made obsolete when good guys start developing super powers.

[Mx.Silver]

This isn't my fault is it?

Nah, it's been on my 'stack' for a while now. Not entirely sure how it got there, but there it is.

[Prime32]

Hey look guys, I found an anime

[BWR]

Most promising pilot episode this season.

[Cobalt]

Hey look guys, I found an anime

I'd watch that.


I'm a few episodes into Gatchaman Crowds, and I am honestly only here for this one song. The cutie-ness is also outstanding ("I'm gloomy~") but that soundtrack, oh my god. Do it again, Gathca.

At some point I'll try and watch the original. So far, Crowds is not the most spectacular thing, although it is fun to watch.

[HamHam]

Crowds ended up being really disappointing.

[Fiery Diamond]

So what did everyone think of Samumenco 15?

So, I determined way earlier in the series that the show throws a gigantic twist/genre-bend every X number of episodes. To begin with I was saying 3-4, but now it's 3-5. The arcs seem to be getting longer (3, 3+, 4, 4+).

Arc One: Samurai Flamenco, reprimander of reprobates (Ep 1-3)

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-This arc is characterized by being low-key and realistic. There are no supers and no advanced tech. Superheros are acknowledged as fictional, but Masayoshi still wants to be one. He is, at this point, not a vigilante.

Arc Two: Samurai Flamenco & Flamenco Girls (Ep 4-7)

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-This arc is characterized by its vigilante focus. Good vigilante (superhero) Samurai Flamenco is contrasted with bad vigilante (magical girls with tech) Flamenco Girls. This was the turning point for me where I almost gave up the series. Can't stand that girl. Abruptly ends near the end of episode 7 with the introduction of Guillotine Gorilla.

Arc Three: Samurai Flamenco vs. King Torture (Ep 7-10)

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-This arc is characterized by it being a superhero show. Samurai Flamenco is not living in a remotely realistic world anymore. He's fighting monsters and is up against a self-styled supervillain. He now makes liberal use of the fancy stationery weapons he got near the end of the last arc, which have started to get a bit silly. Ends conclusively at the end of episode 10, so I knew another major twist was coming.

Arc Four: Flamengers vs. From Beyond (Ep 11-15)

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-This arc is characterized by it being a super sentai show. The Flamengers are our new team, and our old supporting cast has fallen by the wayside. Samurai Flamenco becomes Flamen Red. They use transforming vehicles and a giant robot as well as ray guns. They're fighting wacko monsters that appear to be aliens or something. Gotten a bit ridiculous. Ends halfway through episode 15.

Arc Five: (SPOILERS) (Ep 15-??)

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-This arc appears to be based on the idea of "society turns on the hero it once lauded." I don't know where they plan to go with it, but it looks interesting. So far, they've done a good job at making each arc get interesting, once you get used to the *WHAM* NEW SHOW! feeling.

[Tengu_temp]

Haven't seen Samumenco 15 yet. I'll comment when I do.

Crowds ended up being really disappointing.

"Disappointing" is not the best word. The biggest problem is that they cut out half of the final episode. This leads to several questions and leaves you with a lingering feeling of "what the hell just happened". They better fix that in the DVD release, the movie or the second season!

Well, the show has a few issues. Hajime is shilled in your face a bit too much, especially since she'd do well as a character even without that. Also, the show's portrayal of social media is so ridiculously optimistic that it breaks the suspension of disbelief of an old grump like me. But overall, I found it pretty great regardless. Just don't expect too many power armor battles, because that's not really what Crowds is about.

[HamHam]

"Disappointing" is not the best word. The biggest problem is that they cut out half of the final episode. This leads to several questions and leaves you with a lingering feeling of "what the hell just happened". They better fix that in the DVD release, the movie or the second season!

Well, the show has a few issues. Hajime is shilled in your face a bit too much, especially since she'd do well as a character even without that. Also, the show's portrayal of social media is so ridiculously optimistic that it breaks the suspension of disbelief of an old grump like me. But overall, I found it pretty great regardless. Just don't expect too many power armor battles, because that's not really what Crowds is about.

That's the other huge problem though. Making a sentai show in which they fight no actual monsters is just plain dumb.

[tensai_oni]

That's the other huge problem though. Making a sentai show in which they fight no actual monsters is just plain dumb.

Expecting Gatchaman Crowds to be a "monster of the week" sentai is like expecting Samurai Flamenco to be Japanese Kickass. Even if it looks like it at first, tt's simply not what the show is about. So you either adjust expectations or end up disappointed.

[Kato]

Samurai Flamenco, what did they do to you?!

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No, really... I guess in general I can agree with Fiery Diamond's summary even though I liked where I thought the show was going during the Flamenco Girls arc...

Now it is... it's just weird! Yeah, the show was always comedic, but there's a large difference between "The Producers" comedy and "Spaceballs"! And a show just switching genres like nobody cares... It's still... I can't really say good. It's entertaining, to a point. It's got me curious what weird plot twist they will pull next. Which is worth something.

But I stay by my earlier point: I'd have preferred them to stay realistic even if it meant ending at episode 12. Or heck, even 7. They could have changed the story easily to still work, without the Flamengers...

[Tengu_temp]

Samurai Flamenco - what a tweeeeest!

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We Watchmen now.

This is an extremely promising episode. I'm looking forward to seeing where it's going. Here's to hoping that the old cast will play a big part again.

That's the other huge problem though. Making a sentai show in which they fight no actual monsters is just plain dumb.

Except they fight monsters occasionally. It's just not the main focus of the show. And they're story-important, not monsters of the week.

[kamikasei]

Samurai Flamenco - what a tweeeeest!

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We Watchmen now.

Actually, and fittingly enough,

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given that it's revealed the government was behind From Beyond all along, using fake monsters as a threat to create unity, it was Watchmen five episodes ago.

Here's to hoping that the old cast will play a big part again.

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I just want to see the Flamenco Girls in action again, man. Ideally with Moe as their new leader. I guess perhaps I have a weakness for cute, meek girls turning badass. Also if they're gay. I'm sure those who know me will be very surprised by this.

[Tengu_temp]

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Seriously, I hope Moe and Mizuki dump Mari at this point and start working as a duo, both as idols and magical girls. Moe was willing to get brutally tortured and die for Mari, and in response gets treated like **** because Mari has a fetish for policemen. That girl is a sack of pus in human form and the most despicable being on the show.

[mallorean_thug]

I'm a few episodes into Gatchaman Crowds, and I am honestly only here for this one song. The cutie-ness is also outstanding ("I'm gloomy~") but that soundtrack, oh my god. Do it again, Gathca.

The Gatchaman OST really was a great return to form for Iwasaki. IMO he hadn't put out anything as infectiously listenable as G-G-G-G-GATCHAMAN since Katanagatari and Bahasa Palus. I had high hopes for the Jojo's OST after a couple scenes in the show, but the full album versions were all really underwhelming and far too wub heavy for me. Hopefully the classy middleground he managed to refind for Gatcha is where he's staying for the Noragami OST . . .

This reminded me that I hadn't gotten around to listening to the second volume of the Gatchaman OST that was released on the 22nd . . .

"Disappointing" is not the best word. The biggest problem is that they cut out half of the final episode. This leads to several questions and leaves you with a lingering feeling of "what the hell just happened". They better fix that in the DVD release, the movie or the second season!

Well, the show has a few issues. Hajime is shilled in your face a bit too much, especially since she'd do well as a character even without that. Also, the show's portrayal of social media is so ridiculously optimistic that it breaks the suspension of disbelief of an old grump like me. But overall, I found it pretty great regardless. Just don't expect too many power armor battles, because that's not really what Crowds is about.

Really the secret of enjoying Gatchaman Crowds is twofold. One, lets look at the logo:
See, the show isn't Gatchaman subtitle Crowds. Its Crowds subtitle Gatchaman. This isn't a show about Gatchaman with a minor spotlight on the Crowds, this is a show about Crowds with a minor spotlight on the Gatchaman.
Two, while Hajime is presented as the main character, she isn't the protagonist. (link) Rui is the protagonist. Hajime is too static of a character to work as the protagonist, and if the story were about her and the Gatchman and not about Rui and the Crowds, I'd probably have joined all the naysayers. As is, I feel a lot of people misunderstood what the show was going for, though understandably so because the show itself was a little misleading about its nature at the beginning, similar to what happened with Samurai Flamenco this season, though not as extreme.


Also, the director's cut of the last episode (which adds the 11 minutes missing from the show) is included in the box set of the series which released on the 22nd. As far as subs though, I doubt anybody's going to touch it until either that group gets a copy to rip their own source, or something a little higher quality than this shows up on the internet.

Samurai Flamenco - what a tweeeeest!

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We Watchmen now.

This is an extremely promising episode. I'm looking forward to seeing where it's going. Here's to hoping that the old cast will play a big part again.

Unsurprisingly, I'm pretty stoked for the original cast making a comeback while the rest of the Flamengers get no screentime. Its only been my biggest complaint for 6 weeks running now?

Also, old and busted:

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New hotness:

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[kamikasei]

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Seriously, I hope Moe and Mizuki dump Mari at this point and start working as a duo, both as idols and magical girls. Moe was willing to get brutally tortured and die for Mari, and in response gets treated like **** because Mari has a fetish for policemen. That girl is a sack of pus in human form and the most despicable being on the show.

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I'd say that's a pretty extreme overstatement. Mari isn't a very good person, and has behaved and is currently behaving badly, but do bear in mind that she was confronted with her failings by being literally tortured for hours and then having her self-image demolished by an insightful sadist. No, it's not good that she's reacting being descending into a self-centred sulk, but it's hardly despicable.

I wouldn't like to see her become the team leader again just because she's So Awesome And Needs To Realize It, but I would very much like to see an actual redemption for her - not a wave-a-magic-wand "all is forgiven just because" redemption, but the kind where you recognize what you've done wrong and work to overcome it and make amends. I'd think this anyway, just based on my preferences in storytelling, but the level of vitriol directed towards her from some quarters only cements my desire to see her improve rather than being punished further.

[Tengu_temp]

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I am not opposed to Mari's redemption, under one condition; she must accept Moe's love again. Pushing someone away after they saved your life through self-sacrifice is not cool, man.

And no, I don't have much sympathy for Mari. A little, but not much. From what we've been shown, all the torture she suffered was just some beating and cutting - something you should be used to as a vigilante. All of Torture's other victims suffered much worse than that. Her self-image was shattered, yes, but that happened because she was such a despicable and selfish person in the first place. And one of the reasons she's lashing out on Moe now seems to be that she's a much more selfless and noble person than she is, which is not helping Mari's case at all.

I like Torture and his monsters more than Mari, because while they are horrible beings who kill people, at least they have passion and heart for it. They dedicate themselves to being bad guys, are well aware that it will end with their deaths, and keep being surprisingly good sports about it. Mari decided to become a magical girl not because she wanted to help people, but because she was bored.

[kamikasei]

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I like Torture and his monsters more than Mari, because while they are horrible beings who kill people, at least they have passion and heart for it.

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That's a really, seriously messed up thing to say. Given that you earlier called her the most despicable being on the show, I have to assume you don't just mean you think they're more fun characters than she is, but that you consider the evil murderers (would-be mass-murderers, too) to be better people than someone who became a hero out of less than pure motives. Sincerely, wholeheartedly, and surprisingly affably burning down orphanages full of sick children with kittens does not make you a better person than a firefighter who only really took the job because she's an adrenaline junkie who likes the accolades it brings.

[Tengu_temp]

They have worse goals and do worse things, but are better and more likable people. You can be a good person and still do horrible evil things, or be a horrible person who does good things. And having a selfish motivation is the least of Mari's problems.

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No comment on From Beyond though. Most of its members barely have any personality to speak of, so they don't evoke any emotion as characters. Though I guess the prime minister of Japan might be even worse than Mari.

[mallorean_thug]

They have worse goals and do worse things, but are better and more likable people. You can be a good person and still do horrible evil things, or be a horrible person who does good things.

Umm, wat? Intentionally doing horrible evil things is exactly what separates "good" people and "bad" people. Good people can have the capacity to do horrible evil things, but choosing not to on a regular basis is what makes them good people. You can be a good person and make a terrible mistake, or do something you regret, but what makes you remain a good person afterwards or transition back to being a good person afterwards is your recognition of that action as a mistake or as something to regret while also making an effort to not repeat it. For a good person, killing an innocent should be "the worst moment of my life" not "just another monday".

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King Torture and pals are clearly in the "Just another monday" group. Their reasons, motivations, and characterizations make them interesting fictional characters, but still EVIL fictional characters. I don't even like Mari and I'm going to have to go with kami on this one.

[Closet_Skeleton]

Two, while Hajime is presented as the main character, she isn't the protagonist. (link) Rui is the protagonist. Hajime is too static of a character to work as the protagonist,

You make her sound like a Manic Pixie Dream Girl.

I am not opposed to Mari's redemption, under one condition; she must accept Moe's love again. Pushing someone away after they saved your life through self-sacrifice is not cool, man.

That's Miki Sayaka logic.

I never bought Moe as genuinely in romantic love. She's just too unrealistic for me to take seriously and most of the time she seems to be saying stuff that only makes sense as jokes.

[tensai_oni]

You make her sound like a Manic Pixie Dream Girl.

Well, she kinda is. Except for two differences:

1. A Manic Pixie Dream Girl is like that for the main character's sake. Hajime is the main character herself, she acts like she does for the whole world.

2. Usual MPDGs are, despite all the nice trappings, BAD influence. They try to make the main character chill out and "enjoy the life more" through doing stupid lolsorandum XD crap and generally being a nuisance and ignoring other people. Hajime is all about thinking MORE of other people. Her advice is actually good, useful and relevant.

She's still the least interesting character in her own show, because she gets no development, is rarely if ever wrong and then there is that disgusting scene where everyone spends half the episode to praise how special and awesome she is.

[Tengu_temp]

@mallorean_thug
I'm not using good to mean good-aligned, to use DND terms. I mean a likable, amiable person who you sympathize with, and someone who has many positive qualities. You can easily qualify as someone like that and still be a murderous villain who has to be stopped and deserves to die.

@Closet_Skeleton
Holy crap man, I used spoiler tags for a reason!

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If Moe is not in love with Mari, then what is her feeling towards her? Come on, they even kiss onscreen and sleep together sometimes.

Mari clearly returned her love up to a certain point, but two things ruined it. First, she met Sugita-cop and got a crush on him, a crush he doesn't return because he's already in a relationship. Second, after the King Torture incident, she got angry at Moe because of the different ways Torture treated them, because Moe is so much of a better person than she is. Mari's jealous that Moe has a noble spirit but she herself doesn't.

So, you know, running away from a relationship to pursue a one-sided crush, and getting angry and jealous that someone is a much better person than you. One-two punch of horribleness.

As for Gatchaman: Hajime would probably be a Manic Pixie Dream Girl if she wasn't the main character, but the love interest, and if she wasn't much more insightful and cunning in reality than she seems at a first glance. So maybe you could say that she's the character archetype done right, without any of the negative baggage that usually comes with it.
Although, depending on what happens in the extended ending, some of the bad things that happened during the show might've been her fault, because she spent time faffing around instead of taking action. I'll save my judgement on that when I see the DVD release.

And yeah, I can easily see Rui being the main character, not Hajime.

[mallorean_thug]

You make her sound like a Manic Pixie Dream Girl.

There's certainly enough people on the internet that describe her as such . . .

tensai_oni already described why that doesn't quite fit, but let me add my own clarification. Hajime, despite appearances, is extraordinarily intelligent and has clearly thought through her own personal philosophy and approach to life. So instead of the usual MPDG lecturing influence on an MC, her interactions come off as simply explaining the rationale for the actions she takes that other people don't understand, and questioning the rationale for actions other people take that she doesn't understand. The fact that her actions end up being more "correct" because of the way the show's plot is written does paint her with Mary Sueish tendencies though.

I need to go dig up the translated interviews and supplemental stuff that talked about how up until a very late stage of planning, Sugane was going to be the main character. I'm paraphrasing, but the story goes that Nakamura said one day something to the effect of "In the present/future, women are going to take the lead" and that it was weird that his show that was very much concerned with the present/future of Japan had a male lead. So they added Hajime (Which also lends a lot of credence to all the buddhist allusions which don't quite work with Hajime, another long post somewhere else on the internet I need to go dig up and link here)

. . .and then there is that disgusting scene where everyone spends half the episode to praise how special and awesome she is . . .

Again, while it doesn't change how crappy the tv airing was, that entire half episode was actually planned to be an extra included in the box set, not part of any of the episodes. It got put in and the second half of the last episode got taken out supposedly because of issues with how long the runtime of episode 11 was (wouldn't fit in the tv timeslot even with the OP/ED taken out).

EDIT: EDIT: Moved to new post.