[DSP/PF] Magic of Incarna Playtest Open

[Eldest]

Would you guys mind putting a link to the dropbox in the first post? I know the thread wasn't made by Ssalarn, but it would make me keeping up with this so much easier.

Annnnd first post of a new page. Awkward.

[Seerow]

Would you guys mind putting a link to the dropbox in the first post? I know the thread wasn't made by Ssalarn, but it would make me keeping up with this so much easier.

Annnnd first post of a new page. Awkward.

Yeah I bookmarked them. These are the links, hopefully it'll get updated to the OP:

Daevic: https://www.dropbox.com/s/n7go8mal47...20Playtest.pdf
Guru: https://www.dropbox.com/s/w4kb4ofomf...The%20Guru.pdf
Vizier: https://www.dropbox.com/s/co2i27hemd...naPlaytest.pdf

[Ssalarn]

Are all of the above reflected in the playtest doc? I want to sit down and give feedback too, but I'm worried about retreading ground you've already covered here and in the DSP and Paizo threads.

I always [try to] post the updated docs into Dropbox right before I post the change logs so that you always have the latest materials available.


Also, thanks for pulling those links forward Seerow, I was just about to repost them :)

Thoughts on the downgrade of the Vizier to 1/2 BAB and d6 guys? Things seemed to be leaning towards everyone thinking this was an appropriate change, but I had barely posted the update over in the Paizo forums when I had a player chiming in that they felt this was a nerf the Vizier really didn't need.

Also, I am very aware that the Wrath Daevic's new mechanics read a little rough. I am open to suggestions for new wording that keepsthe effects but streamlines the verbage. I really wrestled a lot with how to make a mechanic that supported natural weapon Daevics and THF Daevics equally, and I came very close to just writing a 4th Passion for the natural weapon guys. The problem is the thematic territory and space considerations for the final product. Wrath, thematically, should be able to encompass both, and I'd like it to, but if it's too cumbersome, we can go another way.

[Seerow]

Quick guru philosophy feedback:
-Still hate the hour long recharge time for Akasin. Especially with the in the sun requirement. There are so many ways for this to get screwed over and make the discipline utterly useless in a real game it's not even funny. Should require no more than 10-15 minutes.

-In addition to the above, Akasin is the only philosophy with no defense bonuses at all. Sin Eater gets all the concealment and mirror images stuff. Vayist gets bonus AC and typically wants to be at range anyway. Akasin was the one who depended on those temp HP the most, and are supposed to be the most focused on healing, and you gave them nothing at all to compensate for losing it.

-Incadescent strike taking up literally 100% of your essence for a bonus to damage is too much. With low investment the damage return isn't high enough, at high essence investment it can be overwhelming, but if it doesn't end the fight the guru is now absolutely USELESS at everything because he has no veils, no more essence to burn, nothing.

-I still want Akasin teleporting at level 19. Seriously we're talking about giving him a 5th level spell for out of combat utility as a near capstone. Why not?


-Sin Eater still gets way more effects than anyone else. You made them all way more costly, but Sin Eater is now also the only path that can reliably recover essence burn in combat, and can recover as many times per turn as they can make attacks. Seriously, cut a few options here, drop the essence recovery to 1/round, and reduce the costs of the abilities to compensate.

-Purify the unclean has similar problems to Akasin's similar ability, except Sin Eater can recover that essence burn in a couple of turns where the Akasin cannot.

-Vayist recovers essence when an attack misses him, but wants to be at ranged where he's never getting attacked (he even gets bonus range increments!). This actually creates a weird thing where a Vayist who is running low on essence will run up into melee and chuck a few throwing weapons out intentially provoking AoOs to try to recover. This seems to go against the philosophy (which is why in my sample I had them also recover if they started out of reach of any enemy, and restricted to 1/round).

-Speaking of, Vayist is still the only one who gains this kind of a big benefit at level 1. Seriously, Akasin gets a cantrip 3/day. Veil Eater gets nothing. Vayist gets an AC boost. The AC boost/burn essence for doubling seems like something that would be more fitting at level 4 (fitting in as a comparison for Sin Eater's various attack avoidance abilities)

-+2 competence bonus on attack rolls doesn't really help encourage using breath of the east wind at all. Too many veils already give a competence bonus that is going to outpace that +2 by the time you get it, why would you be willing to burn essence for it? This ability is still something that will get used once in a blue moon when you need to hit something farther away than usual, but in typical play gets completely forgotten.

[Psyren]

Would you guys mind putting a link to the dropbox in the first post? I know the thread wasn't made by Ssalarn, but it would make me keeping up with this so much easier.

Annnnd first post of a new page. Awkward.

Done! (I didn't originally intend to be the OP, it just happened to fall out that way during the thread mergers.)

I always [try to] post the updated docs into Dropbox right before I post the change logs so that you always have the latest materials available.

Excellent. I have an exam tomorrow morning (yay...) but I'll hopefully have time to give feeback after that.

[Ssalarn]

Seerow,

If you double check, I did change the Akasin's requirement to bright light instead of sunlight, to help mitigate some of that.

I'll work on re-introducing the temp hp mechanics into the Akasin to give him some defensive options like the other Philosophies.

The issue with the Vayist regaining Essence when he's out of enemy reach is that he either ends up with the absolute best Essence burn recovery mechanic, or I've got to double the word count to put a bunch of qualifiers in there. What if we expanded it to include whenever he succeeds on a saving throw as well?


**EDIT**
That being said-

Changelog:

Akasin Philosophy now gains temp hp whenever he takes Essence burn.

Incandescent Strike corrected to allow the Akasin to take Essence burn up to his class level instead of equal to, allowing him to be more judicious in using the ability and making it work as intended.

Travel the Paths of Light now functions as teleport instead of dimension door.

Vayist now restores Essence burn whenever he succeeds on a saving throw or is missed by an enemy attack

Immortal Essence adjusted so that multiple uses overlap rather than extending the duration, allowing him a second option for Essence burn recovery.

[Seerow]

Sorry to hear the news that you apparently do not know the RAI of your creations Ssalarn.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Sorry to hear the news that you apparently do not know the RAI of your creations Ssalarn.

Wait wut? Let me guess a post in the DSP forum?

[Seerow]

Wait wut? Let me guess a post in the DSP forum?

Yeah. Syonique posted a Daevic build using 9 binds, on the assumption that Shape Veil gave an extra veil shaped. When Ssalarn pointed out that it only lets you get a veil from another list, not shape 1 more veil than normal, Syonique went on a rant about how Ssalarn doesn't know the RAW or RAI of his own material.

[Person_Man]

Yeah. Syonique posted a Daevic build using 9 binds, on the assumption that Shape Veil gave an extra veil shaped. When Ssalarn pointed out that it only lets you get a veil from another list, not shape 1 more veil than normal, Syonique went on a rant about how Ssalarn doesn't know the RAW or RAI of his own material.

That's hilarious.

Speaking from personal experience, I'll admit that sometimes writers mess up the details of their own RAW, especially when it comes to the interaction between what you've written and more obscure Feats/spells/etc. In fact, it happens almost all of the time when passing actual legislation. There are so many other laws and regulations that it's nearly impossible to not accidentally and unknowingly contradict something else that someone else has previously written.

But it's pretty much a tautology that a writer would understand the intent of what they write. (Unless they're insane). Oddly, I've seen this happen at more then one book reading, where a fan presses forward some theory about a character or plot point, the author gives them the real answer, and the fan disagrees. I get that literature is very open to multiple interpretations, but when the author flat out says "this is what I meant" I think we can safely assume that they are not lying in most cases.

[Ssalarn]

Sorry to hear the news that you apparently do not know the RAI of your creations Ssalarn.

Apparently I'm a mystery even to myself.

On another note-

I'm working on a way to integrate the Veils by feat option of Shape Veil and the bind feats into the core Essence system while allowing for multi-classing.
What I'm hesitant to do is have a class be able just stack up on Shape Veil and have more facility by level than it should. I also don't want a fighter who has taken Shape Veil 4 times to dip one level of Daevic and suddenly lose facility with his Veils, but I would like him to be able to shape multiple Veils as he spends feats on the subsystem.
So what I'm thinking about is giving non-veilweavers an "effective veilweaving level", equal to like 1/2 class level. That would allow us to encode a progression directly into the subsystem and integrate multiclassing. So, a Fighter could potentially have up to, lets say just as an example, 5 veils shaped at one time by 20th level, or a multi-classed Fighter/Daevic would add 1/2 his Fighter levels to his Daevic level to determine his total Veils available, or his normal by level, whichever is greater.
Thoughts, opinions, suggestions?

[Seerow]

How about an even simpler version?


Take the current Veils Shaped/Chakra Binds/Essence chart. Turn that into a baseline chart. Give the veilweaving classes bonuses to the numbers on this chart (similar to how it works for max essence capacity), while feats let the non-veil weavers gain access to these things.


Just as a quick example, your baseline chart might look something like:

{table=head]Level | Essence | Essence Capacity | Max Veils Shaped | Max Chakra Binds
1 | 0 | 1 | 0 | 0
2 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 0
3 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 0
4 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 0
5 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 0
6 | 1 | 2 | 2 | 0
7 | 1 | 2 | 2 | 1
8 | 1 | 2 | 2 | 1
9 | 1 | 2 | 3 | 1
10 | 2 | 2 | 3 | 1
11 | 2 | 2 | 3 | 1
12 | 2 | 3 | 3 | 1
13 | 2 | 3 | 3 | 1
14 | 2 | 3 | 3 | 2
15 | 3 | 3 | 4 | 2
16 | 3 | 3 | 4 | 2
17 | 3 | 3 | 4 | 2
18 | 3 | 4 | 4 | 2
19 | 3 | 4 | 4 | 2
20 | 3 | 4 | 4 | 2[/table]


So from here you can have it set up like:
-Everyone can shape as many veils as listed on the list, but most don't know how to shape any veils. This is where Shape Veil comes in handy, to take advantage of that. Veilweavers have a list of Veils known they can shape to take advantage of those.
-The Daevic doesn't gain any normal extra veils, but does gain his bonus veils from his Passion. This fits in well with the flavor of the daevic, where most of his power comes from that Passion bond.
--Other veilweavers just get extra veils shaped
-All veilweavers gain bonus essence and chakra binds, much like they currently gain extra essence capacity.
--Non veilweavers don't actually unlock any chakras, but have the limit of chakra bindings so they can't just take the open chakra feat 5 times and have 5 bound veils. The feats never let you exceed this.





But honestly? At this point it's more clear, and possibly a more streamlined approach to the system as a whole, but it also assumes the system is integrated into the core, which will scare people away. The more practical approach may be something like splitting up the feat into the various use cases:

Feat 1) Veilweavers gain a veil from a different class's list.

Feat 2) Non-veilweavers gain a veil selected from a limited list, possibly with restricted access to the ability granted.

I'm mentally comparing this to the Bind Vestige and Improved Bind Vestige feats from Tome of Magic. Those feats give an explicit list of a handful of low level vestiges you can choose from, and even then you only get a single benefit from the vestige [out of 4-5 normally], with a second unlocking from a second feat.

So you have it as a two-feat chain, the first giving you access to a preselected number of veils, possibly available only at reduced capacity. The second gives you access to those veils' chakra bind. If this project gains a sequel, and you want to introduce more options, you can run it just like WotC did with improved familiar (ie reprint the feat with a different set of options from the new book).

Feat 3) Give Veilweavers an extra shaped veil. I know this wasn't intended, but it's not a bad idea for a feat. Though I'm pretty sure the Vizier at least shapes as many veils as he has body slots at high levels. On the other hand this potentially lets a Vizier use Twin Veil without losing a body slot.





Okay last point before I stop typing: Vizier shares a problem with the Akasin guru philosophy: You really seem to love 1 hour short rests. 1 hour is prohibitively long, to the point where it won't be taken advantage of in situations where it really should be. If you want a power to be daily use, make it daily use. If you want it to be encounter based, but with a time-based recharge so people don't say "OMG ENCOUNTER POWERS!" either go with dragon breath weapon style round timers (use this again in X rounds, preferably with a die roll) or no longer than 15 minutes of rest.

Why do I say this? Because the Vizier gets actively punished for using his abilities. By level 20 he can reshape his veils 7 times per day. But when he reshapes them, he loses all of his chakra bindings (you know all of the interesting powerful features that are more than just the +numbers that most of the essence benefits are). That is literally 7 hours of your adventuring day sitting around waiting for the vizier to get back up to full power, or a large chunk of play time with the vizier running around at a fraction of the power he is balanced around. In either case, it is very painful.

Akasin's meditation thing suffers from a similar problem. Yes you made it bright light instead of sunlight (and I do like that at high enough level, he supplies his own bright light at will so can just meditate wherever), but it still takes a literal hour for you to get your extra essence that you need to be remotely competitive with either philosophy. You're not going to get an hour after every encounter to rest, and the other philosophies get great passive in-combat recovery to make up for not having that extra padding of essence.

[Ssalarn]

@Seerow

I like the idea, but it has the problem of basically making the whole subsystem an assumption of the core as well (which you are aware of, I know). It really needs to be modular enough to graft onto or into a campaign on a case by case basis without a built in assumption that this opens the door for everyone (GMs tend to like that feeling of control, especially with 3pp products).

I'll look at reducing the amount of time it takes for a Vizier to rebind and an Akasin to recover his bonus Essence pool, see if we can't make this mesh a little bit better for those campaigns that have the adventurers operating under time constraints.

How do we feel about the general power level of the Vayist over the life of play? I'm in kind of a weird spot now where the Vayist comes up a lot as seeming really bland, but then my local playtesters just love him and I've had one or two GMs come to me with "Ranged stunlock OMG!!!" concerns (typically abated pretty quickly by pointing out that it's a 1/rd capability that is also used as a resource for their other abilities). Basically, on the boards I'm getting concerned that he's a bit bland and has Essence burn recover issues, and in play he seems to be both the most popular and the one having the biggest impact at the table.

[danzibr]

Can you fix the essence capacity column? Something like HD/4 round up

[Person_Man]

I'm in kind of a weird spot now where the Vayist comes up a lot as seeming really bland, but then my local playtesters just love him and I've had one or two GMs come to me with "Ranged stunlock OMG!!!" concerns.

The "stunlock" issue can be resolved by putting a cap on abilities. I like "a creature can only be effected by this ability once every 24 hours." It encourages the player to mix up his tactics, and prevents stunlock. Alternatively, you could put in a diminishing Saving Throw. "Targets can build up a resistance to this ability, and get a +2 bonus to their Saving Throw (which stacks with itself) for each time they have been targeted by this ability in the past 24 hours." Or you can just put a delay time on the Veil itself. I often use "you may only use this once every 1d4ish round." Any of the above prevents players from spamming a powerful ability.

On the "bland" side, I would encourage you to just pick a small number of Niches and play style that you want him to be great at, articulate that vision clearly in it's description, then then let him be great at it. Right now it's sorta a Christmas tree of a bunch of different bonuses and cool abilities. This is similar to the problem that the Incarnate has. Both classes have a ton of cool stuff, but it takes a high level of game mastery to dig through it and figure out exactly what you as a player are supposed to be doing with the class.

[Seerow]

I'm really not sure what the issue with the ranged stunlock issue is.

Why is it different for a Vayist sitting 110ft back stunning someone vs a Monk charging up from 120ft away and stunning somebody?

If you're up against multiple targets, you aren't range stunlocking the entire group in one go (as opposed to what say, a wizard can do), and if you're against a single target then a regular monk is just as effective.

It's not like the ability makes the attack automatically hit or not require a saving throw. I'm just not sure I see the big deal here.

[Person_Man]

I'm really not sure what the issue with the ranged stunlock issue is.

Why is it different for a Vayist sitting 110ft back stunning someone vs a Monk charging up from 120ft away and stunning somebody?

If you're up against multiple targets, you aren't range stunlocking the entire group in one go (as opposed to what say, a wizard can do), and if you're against a single target then a regular monk is just as effective.

It's not like the ability makes the attack automatically hit or not require a saving throw. I'm just not sure I see the big deal here.

I agree, it's not a big deal.

But speaking as someone who has DM'd plenty of games with a Warlock or Dragonfire Adept in it, you want there to be some sort of mechanic that encourages players to switch up which abilities they use, and not use the same ability repeatedly. Being able to use the same ability repeatedly encourages players to put a lot of resources into that one thing (potentially causing crippling over specialization when they fight immune/resistant enemies), and frankly it's boring to have a player who does the same thing most rounds of every combat.

Of course, the same could be said of any Tier 4-5 class, which "spams" melee or ranged attacks every round. So again, it's not that big of a deal. It's just an expression of my personal preference.

[Seerow]

I agree, it's not a big deal.

But speaking as someone who has DM'd plenty of games with a Warlock or Dragonfire Adept in it, you want there to be some sort of mechanic that encourages players to switch up which abilities they use, and not use the same ability repeatedly. Being able to use the same ability repeatedly encourages players to put a lot of resources into that one thing (potentially causing crippling over specialization when they fight immune/resistant enemies), and frankly it's boring to have a player who does the same thing most rounds of every combat.

Of course, the same could be said of any Tier 4-5 class, which "spams" melee or ranged attacks every round. So again, it's not that big of a deal. It's just an expression of my personal preference.

Which is why I'd like to see more options for the vayist. But right now the argument is "Ranged stun is so strong I can't add anything else", which turns into a cyclical problem pretty quickly.

The answer isn't to nerf stunning fist, it's to give access to other options the player will want to take instead of stunning fist. If you want something like enemies resist better if you spam an attack on them, that's really something that needs to be implemented on a system level, not just as a slapped on fix to a single ability for a single specialization of a single class in a 3rd party splat book.

[Psyren]

Okay, so I finally sat down and went through the Vizier. I have quite a bit of feedback, so I'll cross-post or at least link this to the DSP thread as well.

First, general Veilweaving commentary:

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Disjunction - MD destroying veils is harsh, since MD can disjoin multiple veils at once. You could strip a veilweaver of all their powers in one fell swoop and leave them totally defenseless for the remainder of the fight or day.

Essence Capacity - Right now this uses the MoI formula of {(Character Level/6)+1}. I think it might be a good idea to differentiate the math a bit more, both for legal reasons and to open up design space - say, {(Character Level/5)+1}. It would give the tiniest boost at lower levels, while not actually changing the maximum that can be invested until the very tail-end of most builds at level 20 (5 essence max instead of 4, not counting class features and feats) so you don’t even have to rebalance all that much.


Rest - This part should be reworded to account for things like races that do not sleep, have irregular sleep cycles (e.g. resting during the day instead of at night) and have their rest interrupted. I would simply say something like “to shape his veils for the day, a vizier must have a clear and rested mind, following the same rest and preparation process as a wizard (see Core Rulebook pg. XXX)”

Second, the Vizier and its class features:

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Eldritch Insight/Path of the Crafter - Though a crafter Vizier can create magic items and seems intended to use staves and wands, he doesn’t actually have the ability to craft them because you must cast spells as part of the creation process for a spell trigger or spell completion item. This requirement cannot be bypassed with the normal +5 DC increase for ignoring a requirement. If this is intentional, how can a PotC Vizier craft staves and wands? Will they have to cooperate with a spellcaster, or find an existing item to power with Essence during the crafting process?

Eldritch Insight/Transfer the Essence - The ability to use essence to activate an item instead of charges is cool, and so is the ability to transfer charges from one item to another.However, I can see both causing balance issues if allowed to work with items formed from spells that are lower-level on someone else’s list. For instance, a staff of Dominate Monster is normally out of Eldritch Insight’s reach, being a 9th level spell; however, the Summoner version is only 6th-level, meaning you could acquire a 6th-level staff and first power it with Eldritch Insight, then once that ran out and you began using its own charges, recharge it using Transfer the Essence and any 6th-level staff. Effectively you would be trading 6th-level charges for 9th-level ones.

Veilshifting - I like this ability but I think it’s confusing to have the number of switchable veils and number of uses/day on two different tracks. Plus 7/day is so much it may as well be at-will, which lessens the impact of the capstone. Personally, I would have the number of switchable veils be equal to the number of uses per day, and use the lower track for both.

And the biggest chunk, Vizier veils:

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Avatar of Light: This is honestly a bit powerful at 1st level, even unbound. You’ve removed the SLAs and Aura, but Lantern Archons can still do the following: speak and understand any language, fire 2d6 damage worth of rays that bypasses all DR at will 30 ft. away, hover out of reach while doing so, see through darkness and dim light, and they’re immune to electricity and petrification. You can even command it to attack while still attacking yourself because you still have your standard action. I recommend letting the archon only fire 1 ray at 1st level, or requiring a standard action to command it until you’ve invested 2 essence. Second, binding it gets you a Hound Archon at level 6 - this is 1 level earlier than a Cleric gets one via LPA, and this one serves you completely free of charge for as long as you have the veil shaped, with all of its powers, beast shape and still getting the boons from the essence invested. I think this is a bit on the strong side as well, though it does even out over time. It’s also not clear how many times you can stabilize the link in this way; if it runs out, can you spend another standard action to get your Hound Archon back? Can you stabilize the link while it is already stable, i.e. can you refresh the duration on your Hound Archon before it runs out?

I think giving the Vizier Lesser Planar Ally at level 6 for no cost is a mistake, even if you are restricted to that one creature. Instead, I would have it give you 2 lanterns at 6 when bound (or 1 lantern + 1 harbinger) and then give you the Hound Archon at level 8 or even 9 (i.e. after an Oracle can get one.). The Trumpet at 16 I think is okay.

(Fun idea - if the bind instead gave you X archons as you leveled, and let you choose to stabilize them to merge them into stronger ones, you could have a player that either chooses to get the tougher single unit, or - when he got access to 9 archons - lets them form their Gestalt ability.)

Bangles of the Jealous Seductress: There’s an error here - you have the bind listed as “V7” but Viziers don’t get the Wrist chakra until level 8 according to the class table. Also, you should specify that the bind can only be used 1/round, because right now I could fire out NI chakrams against anyone who escapes my fascination effect simply by attacking them (i.e. so that it’s still my turn when they break free and therefore I can pour on the free actions.) But if it is only once, 1d4 + 1/e is pretty weak - I would let it be 1d4/e at a minimum. Finally, the fascinate effect should be mind-affecting, possibly even a [Pattern.]

Bloody Shroud: This one seems fine.

Bralani’s Brooch: This one seems fine, but should probably have the Electricity descriptor.

Circlet of Brass: This should definitely have the Fire descriptor.

Collar of Skilled Instruction: This one seems fine.

Coward’s Boots: Does this apply to fly/swim/burrow speeds? Otherwise it’s fine.

Cuirass of Confidence: Even with the save, line of sight is a bit much for this ability - you could walk down a city street and make every last citizen who even glimpses you Friendly or Helpful. It might even have the opposite effect, and provoke a riot as a wave of people experience the hostile tingle of their will save. I would limit it to 60ft. The bind is fine.

Dark Lord’s Ring of Essence-Binding: You need an HD limit here, otherwise a level 1 vizier can reanimate a Hill Giant if he finds one. I would let the maximum controllable HD be = your HD + essence invested. You should also remove the Cairn Wight’s ability to create spawn - otherwise the Vizier can wreck a campaign world in moments by creating an unshakeable Wight pyramid that are all absolutely loyal to him. It’s also unclear what happens if an enemy cleric Commands your wight/zombie - can he wrest control from you, and if so, for how long, and can you make another if your minion is stolen? In addition, I would actually go with a template for the bind as well, because you can paradoxically end up with a scenario where the unbound version of this veil is more powerful than the bound version. A zombie Storm Giant (humanoid) is probably going to be able to smoosh a Cairn Wight into paste.

Deathchannel Ring: I know you mean “for each point of essence invested” but right now the wording is confusing - it looks like you only ever get 1d6 and 5 ft. of increase no matter how much essence you put in. The action required for the pulse is not specified. Finally, does the ring harm or heal undead? If you have Heart of the Wight bound, can you heal yourself indefinitely?

Ditchdigger’s Armlets: This should probably have the [Earth] descriptor. Otherwise it’s fine, though I don’t think it really needs to be a full-round action.

Dreamcatcher: I would actually allow you to reallocate the essence invested in this meld. Simply require that the chosen Knowledge skills be fixed when the meld is shaped, and tie the number of chooseable knowledges to the meld’s essence capacity rather than its investment. However, the player must be proactive at shifting essence into the meld before a knowledge check is required, thus they would want to keep it full most of the time anyway, but aren’t penalized in a fight once they’ve used it to successfully identify X monster.

Eye of the Oracle: This one seems fine.

Eyes of the Archer Lord: This one seems fine. You may want to clarify whether the vision expansion applies to the True Seeing effect (which is normally capped.)

Gorget of the Wyrm: I would also let them choose a 30ft. line shape. Instead of 2 damage, I would start it off as 1d4 (rolling is more fun) and then follow the progression listed. (1d6 for the initial Neck bind.)

Hand Cannons: This one seems fine.

Hands of the Bard: This veil gives you a bonus to the save DCs of your [pattern] effects that scales with essentia invested. Does this stack with this general increase to the save DC of a veil effect that has essence invested? In other words, would each point of essence grant +2 DC to your hypnotic pattern, or +3?

Heart of the Wight: Can you benefit from helpful effects that purposely damage/burn your ability scores (e.g. Body Fuel) while this is bound? Basically, the Strongheart Vest controversy again.

Horns of the Minotaur: Essence should probably increase the enhancement bonus on this attack instead, so that it can bypass DR and you aren’t required to wear an amulet of mighty fists or similar.

Horselord’s Greaves: Typo here: it says “Binding this Veil to your Feet slot” under the Belt bind entry. Otherwise I’m fine with this.

Lavawalker’s Boots: This one seems fine.

Light Whip: Can you use the trip during your turn, or does it have to be an enemy’s turn who is moving in range of you?

Pestilence Cloak: How much concealment is “partial concealment?” By the rules, it is less than 20%, but beyond that you have to specify. 15%? 10%? Second, can this concealment be used to make a Stealth check? Third, this should probably have the [figment] descriptor (and lose that descriptor at 7 essence.) Finally, for the Shoulders bind - do they still have to make a fort save if they disbelieved the illusion initially? (Assuming less than 7 essence invested.)

Polar Snowshoes: This should have the [cold] descriptor. Also, cold AoE damage is usually a fort save for half rather than reflex. Thirdly, when you say “increase by one damage die” are you saying the 1 die of damage increases (e.g. 1d4 -> 1d6 -> 1d8 -> 1d10 -> 1d12) or are you saying the damage increases? (1d4 -> 2d4 -> 3d4 etc.)

Ring of the Abjurer: Is this a force effect, like Mage Armor/Inertial Armor? Will it stop incorporeal touch attacks? (If so, it should have the [force] descriptor.)

Riven Darts: This should have the [force] descriptor. Also, same comment as Snowshoes with the “increase by one damage die.” Finally, are you limited by your BAB? Is launching multiple darts a standard or full-round action?

Robe of the Forgotten Deity: This should say “incorporeal quality” rather than “incorporeal condition.” In addition, this should probably have the [darkness] descriptor. Otherwise it’s fine.

Sentinel’s Helm: If you already have Uncanny Dodge, does this become Improved Uncanny Ddoge?

Snakehandler’s Gauntlets: This should have the [poison] descriptor. Also, the DR should improve to Magic and Slashing over time (i.e. protects you from bludgeoning - a snake’s coils - and piercing from their fangs.)

Spiked Pauldrons: This one seems fine.

Stalker’s Tabi: The belt bind should say “dim light or darker.” Otherwise you are unable to use this in total darkness, which seems counterintuitive. Finally, this should have the [teleport] descriptor.

Stare of the Ghaele: This should probably have the [Fear] descriptor.

Stone Giant’s Girdle: An enhancement bonus to anything is useless at the level you gain the Body bind. I suggest this be made untyped or competence.

Stormcaller’s Band: This should probably be “veilweaving modifier” even if it is a Vizier-only meld, just to prevent problems later. Otherwise it’s fine.

Storm Gauntlets: This should have the corresponding descriptors for the damage it deals. Also, does the Wrists bind apply to ranged and thrown weapons as well?

Tauric Brace: The speed bonus should probably be to land speed specifically. In addition, enhancement doesn’t stack with many effects, so I would change this to circumstance.

Thurston’s Bladewards: This one seems fine.

Vestments of the Maharaja: Honestly I would just say the Chest bind works like dominate monster (except duration) to minimize questions about how to adjudicate it. Otherwise you risk starting up arguments at the table about creatures with more than one sovereign or no sovereign, creatures with no intelligence, creatures for whom merely obeying a sovereign to begin with is against their nature etc. And of course this effect needs to be a mind-affecting compulsion. As written I feel like this thing is going to be a grenade for many tables.

Vorpal Guards: I would add “and similar effects” to the Vorpal property protection, allowing this to guard against effects like Bladed Scarf.

Waistband of the Wealthy: If it is pierced while bound, will the “bag” rupture like a real one? What happens if someone places you into a Portable Hole, or you fall into an Enveloping Pit?

I’ll go through the feats after I look at the other two veilweavers.

[Ssalarn]

@Psyren
Thank you! Your analysis was very, very helpful and I'll be incorporating many of your notes into the next update.

I'd also like to apologize to everyone for not responding for the last week here. I've been moving to Seattle from Spokane and it's been a long process. I also don't have internet at home yet, so my responses will probably be a bit sporadic for a few more days.

Thanks to everyone for their support so far and I'll try and keep touching base and going over your feedback and notes.

Also, I mentioned this in another forum, but the Vayist is going to be getting more defensive capabilities and possibly a "marking" mechanic to proc his Essence burn recovery mechanic off of. Some of the Sineater's Veil of Sins abilities are going to be re-imagined as wind-based abilities for the Vayist, and the Sineater is going to see abilities that are more like DR or fast healing, or even Regeneration, so that it's less about him avoiding damage, and more about him devouring sin to repair/restore/prevent it.
Akasin is getting his meditation time cut down to 15 minutes instead of an hour.

[Ssalarn]

Sorry to post after myself guys, but I wanted to let everyone know what's going on:

First, Centurylink dropped the ball and I still don't have internet at home. There's only so much you can accomplish in the lobby at Starbuck's, especially since they've started limiting how long you can camp on a single mocha :P

I'm going to do everything in my power to get an update out to you this weekend, and that update should include the following changes:

Avatar of Light is going bye-bye. The powers that be are basically tired of hearing about it, and I can't blame them. We'll try and revisit this in a future book (assuming this one does well enough!) where we have room for maybe a small Bestiary section or at least a few pages for custom monsters so we get something that really fills this role appropriately.

Vayist is getting the evasive type philosophy abilities, and Sineater is getting DR, Fast Healing, and Regneration. Vayist is probably also going to get a marking mechanic to facilitate his Essence burn recovery by forcing someone to either hit him or help him recover.

Akasin is getting their meditation time reduced. I'd been considering rolling the Avatar of Light Veil into their class abilities since there was so much thematic overlap, and treating the Archon as kind of a portable battery for the Akasin, but that may not be an option with the directive to axe the Veil and save pets for a later supplement. Let me know if that would have been an option you were interested in so I know if its worth fighting for or letting go.

I owe you guys more Guru Veils, and they should be in this next update as well. We really focused on stuff that matched the idea of a combatant who'd rather disable an enemy and turn their own strengths against them, as opposed to the big blasts and auras of the Vizier, or the brute hitting power of the Daevic.

Vizier (and by extension some Guru and Daevic) Veils are getting overhauled to account for the Vizier's drop in BAB. This is going to mean that some Veils get minor adjustments to allow the wearer to use their veilweaver level or their BAB, whichever is higher, and others are going to get chopped up and turned into something entirely new much like Forcestrike Knuckles and Riven Darts. The good news here is that the total number of Veils will only grow because of this, and it's a good opportunity to re-introduce some ideas that were discarded along the way, not because they weren't good, but because they didn't quite fit into the old paradigm. Hand Cannons is a good example; we're probably going to make it a Daevic specific Veil (or possibly a Daevic/Guru Veil, though it feels off theme for every Guru other than maybe the Vayist to me) and then give the Vizier something that is a little more... Let's just say that if the Hand Cannons were the equivalent of a magical shotgun the Vizier's going to be getting a Veil that's a bit more like a shoulder mounted rocket launcher. Slower to fire, but with a bigger boom at the end.
I'm also incorporating Psyren's notes to ensure that Veils have all the appropriate descriptors in place.

Armory of the Conqueror is getting one last overhaul, though this one shouldn't be as extensive. It will have no effect when it isn't invested with Essence, and then it'll scale at a 1,3,5,7 (keeping the max colossal limit). That'll give it a total of 4 size increases, broken up a little more evenly throughout the level progression. This more closely matches the progression and abilities that can be simulated through core classes.

If all goes well with this update, we'll allow 1-2 weeks for additional playtesting before we start rolling out the archetypes and PRC's (which I am very excited for!).

Thanks, as always, for your support and insight guys, particularly Seerow, Psyren, and Person_Man, who have been incredible sources of insight and inspiration in the project so far (and hopefully will continue to be!).

[Psyren]

Glad to help! I'm working on feedback for the Guru and Daevic, in that order. I'll try to get them posted before your weekend release.

And please don't take any constructive feedback the wrong way - you're one of my favorite posters on the Paizo boards and I was very happy to learn you were heading up this project. Consider my pre-order guaranteed

[Ssalarn]

Glad to help! I'm working on feedback for the Guru and Daevic, in that order. I'll try to get them posted before your weekend release.

And please don't take any constructive feedback the wrong way - you're one of my favorite posters on the Paizo boards and I was very happy to learn you were heading up this project. Consider my pre-order guaranteed

Your support is very much appreciated, as is your criticism. While my "conversations" with a particular poster on a particular site have been getting.... heated, that's more of a sign of poor choices in phrasing and a general friction in presentation than a sign that I don't want to hear everyone's feedback and contributions.
Seerow (not the poster I was referring to in the above paragraph) has probably had as many critical insights as supportive ones, and he's getting a special call-out in the final product as one of the people I want to thank (you're in there too Psyren). At the end of the day, I want the best product, and as much cool stuff as I can possibly shove into one book, and I want GM's to feel good about having it at their table. Balance and full descriptions are one of the ways that gets done.

[stack]

On the vizier's crafters path, regarding transfer the essence: should there be some mention of cursed items? From how its written now it seems like you could, if you had a cursed +5 sword and a regular +1 sword, swap all the enchantments, milking the cursed item. I suppose it doesn't really require any additional text, just thought that a callout might head off arguments down the line.

[Ssalarn]

On the vizier's crafters path, regarding transfer the essence: should there be some mention of cursed items? From how its written now it seems like you could, if you had a cursed +5 sword and a regular +1 sword, swap all the enchantments, milking the cursed item. I suppose it doesn't really require any additional text, just thought that a callout might head off arguments down the line.

It's worth thinking about. I'll look at maybe adding something in there addressing that issue. I know that I, as a GM, have on more than one occasion let the party gain a weapon that was really too strong for them but which had some kind of nasty curse on it, and from that perspective it might be annoying to drop what you think is going to be an interesting RP tool only to have the party Vizier suck all the goodies out and throw the cursed weapon off a cliff. It brings up some similar questions about intelligent items as well that I hadn't considered. Thanks for catching that!

[stack]

Well, it would certainly be a unique niche if left in. Not sure how I thought of it, honestly. Figured it was worth mentioning since it seems like an easy thing to overlook. Good call on the intelligent items, rewarding/punishing them with enhancements would be interesting, but potentially problematic like you said.

I haven't had time to out together builds and give feedback, unfortunately.

[Ssalarn]

Well, it would certainly be a unique niche if left in. Not sure how I thought of it, honestly. Figured it was worth mentioning since it seems like an easy thing to overlook. Good call on the intelligent items, rewarding/punishing them with enhancements would be interesting, but potentially problematic like you said.

I haven't had time to out together builds and give feedback, unfortunately.

No problem Stack, you've already given me something fairly meaty to play around with....

I actually kind of like the idea of a Vizier archetype that actually plays around with storing and transferring weapon effects, including curses, but I think it's more something to head off in the base class as it can kind of show up and throw some pretty severe curve balls at a GM. I think curses will probably have to transfer with whatever the largest source of magic is and Intelligent Weapons will get a Will save or some broad GM discretion to allow them the ability to follow the flow of magic and occupy whichever physical item involved in the process they choose.


...


I just had a weird picture in my head of an evil intelligent item dominating a Vizier and forcing him to make lesser "clones" of it as part of a weird drive to complete whatever its purpose was.

[stack]

Straight out saying 'no' would be the easiest, but I wonder if some form of save-based system would work. Will DC 10+the items CL, success means you can move enchantments away from the item, failure means you can only increase the intelligent/cursed item's power, failure by 5 or more duplicates the intelligence/curse to both items? Even with a good will save it could be a risk you wouldn't want to take with a high CL item. Dc's might need to be tweaked.

Just an idea, haven't run any math or considered every possible implication.

[Ssalarn]

Straight out saying 'no' would be the easiest, but I wonder if some form of save-based system would work. Will DC 10+the items CL, success means you can move enchantments away from the item, failure means you can only increase the intelligent/cursed item's power, failure by 5 or more duplicates the intelligence/curse to both items? Even with a good will save it could be a risk you wouldn't want to take with a high CL item. Dc's might need to be tweaked.

Just an idea, haven't run any math or considered every possible implication.

I think just saying "no" might actually end up being the solution (at least for now). After looking it over a bit, I don't think there's a solid way of dealing with this that doesn't have very extensive ramifications. I think the default will be that the ability cannot affect cursed or intelligent items, and we'll tuck the idea of toying those mechanics away for a future archetype or expansion.

[Psyren]

I think just saying "no" might actually end up being the solution (at least for now). After looking it over a bit, I don't think there's a solid way of dealing with this that doesn't have very extensive ramifications. I think the default will be that the ability cannot affect cursed or intelligent items, and we'll tuck the idea of toying those mechanics away for a future archetype or expansion.

This is definitely what I would recommend - and disallow artifacts too, as some of them also have charges (e.g. Staff of the Magi) or enhancements.