[DSP/PF] Magic of Incarna Playtest Open

[Ssalarn]

Quick note guys, I finally have internet, so the new updates should make a weekend release, including final adjustments to Daevic Veils and some smoothing out of some of the phrasing, additional Guru Veils, removal of Avatar of Light, adjustments to Guru Philosophies, reworking/addition of several Vizier Veils to keep him with a wide range of functional options with his reduced BAB, and addition of several important descriptors and minor terminology adjustments throughout the Veil lists.
I'm going to be reviewing the interactions between Transfer the Essence and various "special" items tonight and making some decisions about how those will all interact. At this point, I believe Transfer the Essence simply won't work on artifacts, cursed items, and intelligent items.
Feats, which I had originally planned for this release, will probably need to wait for the archetype roll-out. Since several of the feats will have a much more noticeable impact with the archetypes than the core Veilweaver classes (kind of in the same vein as how running sideways along a wall is kind of neat for a Psion but potentially amazing for a more martially focused class) I think this will give them a better and more thorough testing opportunity.
Thanks all!

**EDIT** I finished adding in all of the item Psyren addressed in his earlier notes that needed correction or address last night. Just a few more changes to the playtest documents and I'll have them updated in the Dropbox links, which I will repost here as well since we're on a new page along with the change log (which is at two pages and counting, so that is going to be a huge post, even though the bulk of the changes are fairly minor).

[Ssalarn]

Bumped into a small editing issue with the new Veils (need to get them matched up with some of the changes worked into the current Veils in addition to a weird formatting issue that keeps cropping up when I try to add them to the gdocs), so there will be a follow up release very shortly adding those to the playtest document.
In the meantime though:
Changelog:
Immortal Essence adjusted so that multiple uses overlap rather than extending the duration, allowing him a second option for Essence burn recovery.
Stunning Fist updated to note that recovering a use is a 1/day mechanic.
Gloves of the Master Thief corrected to grant an insight bonus.
Armory of the Conqueror adjusted so that it no longer grants a size boost until essence is invested, and size now scales at 1, 3, 5, and 7 Essence.
Wrath Passion adjusted so that both Bull Rush and Overrun options are supported throughout the life of the Passion instead of Bull Rush being the only maneuver supported past the first ability.
Clarified that a rake counts as one of the extra attacks granted by the Wrath maneuver abilities.
Horns of the Minotaur now has the option to use veilweaver level in place of BAB for gore attacks.
Bonus granted by Essence of the Succubus now scales at 1 + 1/Essence instead of 2 + 2/Essence.
Akasin now only needs to meditate for 15 minutes to gain temporary Essence pool.
Cuirass of Confidence now affects creatures who come within 60 feet instead of line of sight.
Dark Lord’s Ring of Essence Binding clarified to only grant a human zombie companion until the bind ability allows access to a cairn wight.
Clarifications made to Deathchannel Ring to remove some ambiguous phrasing.
Gorget of the Wyrm changed to 1d4 base damage with a 30 foot line option.
Hand Cannons adjusted to allow the wearer to use either their BAB or veilweaver level to determine to-hit and bonuses.
Note made to Heart of the Wight that you cannot benefit from effects normally activated by taking damage to your physical ability scores.
Light Whip is now a purely reactive ability used in place of an attack of opportunity.
Pestilence Cloak clarified in several places, descriptors added.
Polar Snowshoes now requires a Fortitude save instead of a Reflex save. Other clarifications made.
Ring of the Abjurer and Riven Darts clarified as force effects.
Darkness descriptor added to Robe of the Forgotten Deity.
Sentinel’s Helm clarified to grant improved if uncanny dodge if you have uncanny dodge from another source.
Stalker’s Tabi clarified to work in dim light or darker.
Fear descriptor added to Stare of the Ghaele.
Stone Giant’s Girdle now grants a size bonus to strength of 1 / 2 Essence. Enhanced reach requires at least 4 points of Essence to be invested.
Massive reworking to the Vayist Philosophy.
Numerous changes to the Sineater Philosophy.
Vizier's Transfer the Essence noted to not work when used on cursed, intelligent, or artifact items.

[Psyren]

Excellent - I'll take a look at the revised Guru and update my notes accordingly.

[Shinken]

Wait, wait, wait.

What about the Flowshaper? What happened to him?

[Psyren]

@ Ssalarn: Okay, I did a compare on the two versions of the Guru document and thankfully most of the changes were in areas I hadn't gotten to yet, so most of my feedback should hopefully still be useful for you. I'll try to finish it today

You did get ahead of me on the Veil of Sins ability - I must say that I really prefer the new version!

Wait, wait, wait.

What about the Flowshaper? What happened to him?

That was a preliminary class from before Ssalarn took over the DSP Incarnum conversion I believe. It is now defunct, though some of its concepts may have been cannibalized for the Vizier - Ssalarn would be the guy to ask if that was the case.

[Ssalarn]

Wait, wait, wait.

What about the Flowshaper? What happened to him?

So, the Flowshaper was something that was really created with the Third Dawn product line in mind, and a lot of the steps taken as this project was developed kind of walked away from a few of the ideas behind that class. That's not to say there won't be a version of the Flowshaper in the follow up book to this release (assuming everything goes well we've already got way more material and ideas than we can fit into one release and I'm 100% down for a second book), but this time around we went a different way with everything and approached the system from the angle of the new classes presented here.
Keep in mind, that doesn't mean that the Flowshaper might not reappear at a later date in a slightly different incarnation, or that there won't be plenty of psionic support, archetypes, PrCs, etc. in both the current book and any future follow-ups, just that he's not going to be featured in this particular product.
The Daevic, Guru, and Vizier are really about showcasing the Essence system and Veils, and exploring a couple different ways to use them. One of the things we'll really be getting into with archetypes, PrCs, and a follow up book if this makes it that far, are alternative ways to use the Essence subsystem without necessarily using Veils.
One of the biggest examples of this that I'll be rolling out with this book is the Akashic Warrior, a Fighter archetype that really keeps the core chassis of the class pretty solid but deviates in how it works. The Akashic Warrior gets an Essence pool and unlocks a few binds, but he isn't granted any Veils by his class. Instead, he adds the Incarna feats to those he can selet with his bonus feats and Weapon Training, Armor Training, and Bravery all become valid options for him to invest Essence into instead of scaling by level. So where a normal Fighter would end up with +4 Armor Training, +4 Weapon Training, and +5 Bravery (think of that as effectively 13 points of Essence that he can't move around) we'll give him 10 points of Essence by the same level and give all three features a capacity of 5 or 6, so he can boost them a bit higher, but can't maintain them all simultaneously. Since he'll also get the Incarna feats as bonus feats, he'll have the option to use that Essence to shore up other areas as well, perhaps deciding that he'd rather spend a feat on Will of the Daeva and invest his Essence there to shore up his Will saves instead of investing it in his Bravery class feature (or potentially investing in both if there's something seriously scary that he has to deal with).

So the Flowshaper may be reimagined a bit and appear in a book like that where we're playing with alternative ways to use the system. I'd been playing with some ideas for a psionic class that used Veils but didn't get an Essence pool, instead powering them temporarily with power points and getting some pp "recycling" abilities, and that's something the Flowshaper could be a good fit for.

[Shinken]

The Akashic Warrior sounds insanely cool. Excellent design choices there.

[Ssalarn]

The Akashic Warrior sounds insanely cool. Excellent design choices there.

Thank You!

One of the things that kind of hit me about the Fighter is that few people think he's actually bad at doing what he does; it's just that generally, any given Fighter only does one thing well. By shifting him to the Essence system, we get to address all of the concerns with the core chassis while opening up his versatility-

Bravery is too conditional: Now it's an abililty you can invest in when you need it, or divert resources from to something more useful when it's unnecessary.

Armor Training doesn't scale unless I max my Dex, making me even more MAD!: Same as Bravery. You can scale your Armor Training as high as is appropriate for your character when you need to, controlling pretty exactly the benefit you get and need from this ability.

Fighters have poor skills and nothing they can do effectively outside of combat: By giving them the Essence system to work with and the options to choose Incarna feats with their bonus feats, we create a whole new world for the Fighter. If he wants to step more fully into the veilweaving system, he can grab the Shape Veil feat and actually have the resources to use it effectively, potentially grabbing a Veil that boosts a few key skills, or grants a special movement mode, or gives him unique tools to utilize in social situations. Basically the Fighter still retains that "build your own fighting man" element that is really core to the class, but he gets a chance to grab the missing pieces as well, so at the end of the day you have character who looks and feels like a Fighter, but who is fully integrated into the Essence subsystem.


Enough about things to come though! Here's a little update on where things are at and where I expect them to go moving forward:

I think I've got a solution to the formatting errors with the missing Veils and I should get them integrated in tonight, completing the Guru Veil list and plugging a few holes in the Vizier and Daevic.

Assuming all goes well, this will be the last major update to the playtest documents. I've got someone doing some editing now so there should be more information in the final Veil list summaries. I apologize for not getting that accomplished during the playtest, but **** got real for a while and I just wasn't able to make it a priority. My goal is to start getting archetypes out to you (including the Akashic Warrior) next week, with prestige classes the following week, with a goal of wrapping up the playtest in/by April. I'll try and leave the playtest docs available on all forums until we actually start selling finished .pdfs.
Andreas and Jeremy will have a much better idea of the timeline surrounding layout and distribution, but one of the big things I will say: the more people who preorder any or all of the .pdfs or the final product, the more likely that I get to do a second book, and that's something I'd love to do. I'm looking at maybe bringing in some materials from one or two other writers that have pitched to me in a preliminary manner (Alchemist class with Essence-addicting formulas anyone?), and we've already got a few nearly complete base classes that didn't make the cut here (including a martial artist who can infuse Essence directly into his chosen element, manipulating it without using Veils, and an advanced class version of the Summoner whose Eidolon gets Veils and an Essence Bond instead of Evolutions, amongst other things).

So, if any of that interests you, or if there's something you haven't seen yet that you'd be interested in seeing, let me know. In the mean time, please keep playtesting, please keep giving me feedback, and as always, thanks to everyone here for your insight and support.

[Psyren]

More numbers - even mutable ones - will not be sufficient to help the fighter. To truly boost the Akashic Fighter, it should also be able to spend its bonus feats on veilweaving feats; hopefully that is the case.

General question about veils; are their effects subject to SR/immunity? I know that melds in Incarnum were ("Soulmeld-magic Transparency", MoI 52) but it's not mentioned in veilweaving anywhere I could see. Could a creature with SR potentially be protected from Circlet of Brass' fire ray or Immaculate Touch's positive energy attack?

[Ssalarn]

More numbers - even mutable ones - will not be sufficient to help the fighter. To truly boost the Akashic Fighter, it should also be able to spend its bonus feats on veilweaving feats; hopefully that is the case.

General question about veils; are their effects subject to SR/immunity? I know that melds in Incarnum were ("Soulmeld-magic Transparency", MoI 52) but it's not mentioned in veilweaving anywhere I could see. Could a creature with SR potentially be protected from Circlet of Brass' fire ray or Immaculate Touch's positive energy attack?

SR should still function against Veil abilities yes. That'll be in the final product and I'll try and get it noted in the playtest as well.

On the Akashic Warrior: They add the Incarna feats to their bonus feats class feature, so any feat with the Incarna descriptor is a valid option for them. Shape Veil, which does not have that descriptor, would need to be taken separately, but most of the save-boosting feats, bind-based feats, etc. will be readily available to them, and should they choose to grab the Shape Veil feat with one of their feats by level, they will have the Essence and potentially even the bind (depending on slot) to use it effectively. I've got a playtest group who were running through the Dragon's Demand module last night which included a Guru, a Vizier, an Akashic Warrior, and a Bard, and no one even realized the AkWar was anything other than a particularly competent Fighter until he ran vertically up a tree to scout out the area around them. And that's kind of what I was going for. I don't want him to stop being a Fighter; I just want him to be a Fighter who isn't constantly falling in pits, getting charmed, dominated, confused, etc., and who doesn't stop being useful when the fight ends and the exploration or social game begins.

[PsyBomb]

SR should still function against Veil abilities yes. That'll be in the final product and I'll try and get it noted in the playtest as well.

On the Akashic Warrior: They add the Incarna feats to their bonus feats class feature, so any feat with the Incarna descriptor is a valid option for them. Shape Veil, which does not have that descriptor, would need to be taken separately, but most of the save-boosting feats, bind-based feats, etc. will be readily available to them, and should they choose to grab the Shape Veil feat with one of their feats by level, they will have the Essence and potentially even the bind (depending on slot) to use it effectively. I've got a playtest group who were running through the Dragon's Demand module last night which included a Guru, a Vizier, an Akashic Warrior, and a Bard, and no one even realized the AkWar was anything other than a particularly competent Fighter until he ran vertically up a tree to scout out the area around them. And that's kind of what I was going for. I don't want him to stop being a Fighter; I just want him to be a Fighter who isn't constantly falling in pits, getting charmed, dominated, confused, etc., and who doesn't stop being useful when the fight ends and the exploration or social game begins.

LOVE this concept. Ironically, this creates a situation where the previously-horrible Essence Save feats become INCREDIBLE. Just use them as they are intended, for alternate receptacles. In particular, this makes the class nearly as hard to affect with Fear as a Paladin... harder, actually, if the enemy has a way to strip the Immunity (say, a Dread). I'll likely be playing an Akashic Warrior to introduce my own group to the system.

I only just found this thread and am coming from HEAVY Incarnum use in 3.5 (and in one PF game, where I direct-ported the Totemist by translating only skill names). I look forward to giving these a thorough read over the next few days, and will do my level best to stress-test builds for breaking points.

To this end, I'll be working from essentially everything that's up on the SRD. Is there anything in particular you'd like me or my group to focus on when brainstorming and testing?

EDIT: if you make a Sin Eater Guru/Monk PrC that advances Flurry, unarmored AC, Veilweaving, and Gentle Touch abilities I will probably have him as my main character for the rest of PF's lifespan. Especially if it has decent skill points. I'll finally be able to drop Strength and still meaningfully affect combat as a Monk, while Veilweaving for the skill monkey role.

[Ssalarn]

Hammer on the Daevic. I'm feeling really good about the Vizier and the Guru, though I need to get the last batch of Guru Veils out so everyone can play with those, but the Daevic could use more playtest feedback because he's the class where I get really divergent information from playtesters and reviewers.

Also, the Vizier is probably going to layout for the first .pdf within the month, so if you do stumble across anything there that strikes you as an issue, or being lacking, or being too much, let me know ASAP so we can get it fixed before implementing a fix involves a 5 man team.

I'm going to try and go into overtime mode this weekend to get the full Akashic Warrior and some of the other archetypes out to everyone to start playing with, but if you were hoping to run the AkWar this Friday or Saturday now that I've gone and run my mouth about how awesome it is, let me know and I'll post up the ugly version as a starting point.

[PsyBomb]

On it, so no need to post the ugly AkWar yet while we hammer the Daevic and Vizier. We will be focusing on multi classing, trying to break the system. I'll post immediately if we find something

[Psyren]

I finished going through v2 of the Guru doc; I’ll next take a quick look at the Vizier changes between v1 and v2 (should be quick) before diving into the Daevic.

Before I go into the Guru though I had two more general comments to share on the system as a whole:

Disjunction - I noticed the veil destruction language is still there and wanted to reiterate that I think it’s a bit harsh. Since veils are treated like items for the purposes of dispelling, I think disjunction should treat them just like it treats items - i.e. suppressed for minutes/lvl instead of being outright destroyed, unless the veilweaver rolls a natural 1 will save for that particular veil. Minutes/level is long enough for a lucky disjunction to force a veilweaver to retreat, but not so long that they are rendered useless for the rest of the day. No other class has its class features so ravaged by one spell.

The Incarna Augmentation feat - this has the same language quirk that makes Midnight Augmentation so problematic; namely it’s unclear whether the augmentation discount applies to the total cost to manifest the augmented power, or to each stage of augmentation. To prevent arguments, it’s best to specify which of these you mean (for balance’s sake, preferably the former.) At least you won’t need to worry so much about Bestow Power in this version.

Now, on to the Guru:

1) Guru Class Features

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Skills: No problems here. From a fluff standpoint, reconciling their cloistered/monastic existence with the fact that they pick locks and disarm traps might be worth a line or two. I would mention that they train to solve puzzles (both physical and mental) because often the best solution to a problem is not the most obvious one, particularly for people who seek to avoid violence. I would also make them fond of riddles.

Veil Shaping: Don’t forget to change “in the attached supplement” to a page reference when you combine these into one document; otherwise this is fine.

Gentle Touch: This should probably be (Su.) Also needs some clarification - when you say “all damage dealt by the Guru while this ability is active,” do you mean damage dealt specifically with the charged weapon, or damage from all of their weapons (including, e.g., secondary or racial natural weapons that they haven’t infused with this ability)? Also, even if it’s just the former, what happens if the weapon I use with this does multiple types of damage, e.g. a Flaming Longbow or a Wounding Longsword - will that bonus/extra damage be converted to nonlethal as well, or will it be overwritten? Does the answer change depending on whether the extra damage is physical or energy damage?

Stunning Fist: This should probably be (Ex); otherwise it’s fine.

Chakra Disruption: This should probably be (Su.) In addition, see below:

- Hands: Does the “hands” disruption apply to attacks that can, but don’t necessarily have to, use the hands? For example, a monk’s unarmed strike can be done with nearly any part of the body, including knee and elbow strikes, body blows and headbutts - could they avoid the penalty by declaring aloud that they aren’t attacking with their hands? Does this affect nonphysical attack rolls that use the hands (e.g. a ray fired from the finger, like disintegrate/scorching ray?) If so, would it affect a ray fired from another part of the body (e.g. the eyes, such as Circlet of Brass?)

- Feet: This should probably specify “base speed” or “base land speed” (the same thing, usually,) unless it is intended to affect things like flight, swimming and burrowing.

- Shoulders: Does this apply to shield bonuses that don’t come from an actual worn shield, e.g. a Shield spell or the Force Screen power? If not, I think this should say something like “a penalty to any shield AC that comes from a physically worn shield.” Also, if you reduce someone’s Dex bonus to AC to 0, are they considered to be “denied a Dex bonus to AC” for the purpose of abilities like sneak attack? Finally, note also that normally, penalties cannot reduce a physical attribute below 1 (CRB 555) - only ability damage/drain can actually get a stat to zero.

- Headband: This one seems fine.

- Head: This one seems fine.

- Body: What is the duration on the exhaustion effect - is it instantaneous? If so, can effects that remove exhaustion (like restoration, or simply sleeping) remove it? Finally, exhausted seems kind of tame at this level, especially compared to the previous two conditions (stun and blind); I would consider either adding sickened to this as well, or making it paralyze instead, which is the most severe and would fit with disrupting their entire Body chakra.

Sunder Veil: This should probably be (Su). What happens to the essence inside a suppressed veil? Can it be reallocated? Also, I think this should be usable to suppress items as well as veils, providing a less destructive alternative to Crack the Shell, perhaps for 1 round + 1 round/essence invested.

Improved Essence Capacity: I think this should be 4, 10, 16 so that it follows a more regular progression (ie.. 4th level and every 6 levels after.) Or perhaps do 4, 11, 18 (4th level and every 7 after.)

Seal Wounds: This should be (Ex )or (Su.) Otherwise it’s fine.

Crack the Shell: As written this cannot be used on unattended objects, which somewhat paradoxically means that holding an item can actually make it more vulnerable to the Guru’s attacks. Is this intentional? Also, if essence is stored in an item (I assume there will be items of this kind coming out) and the item is destroyed, what happens to the essence that was in it? I think MoI is actually silent on the subject; I would have any essence in a destroyed item return to your essence pool automatically.

Sever The Flow: It’s unclear whether this ability affects magic items or not. First it says “all magic effects and magic items currently affecting the target are disjoined” but then it says “unlike a standard mage’s disjunction, this ability does not affect magic items wielded or worn by the target,” which contradicts the previous line. Which one is right? Also, same comment as Sunder Veil - can the essence currently allocated to any disabled veils be reallocated to functioning ones?

Immortal Essence: This should be (Su). Otherwise no problems here.

2) Guru Philosophies

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General comment on burning essence: I think there should be some ramp-up time before meditation will restore it. Say, you need 10 minutes to get into the right mindset, followed by 1 minute/essence to restore. This will stop the “sitting to drink” phenomenon you see after every encounter in some MMOs if they are under time pressure and make the Guru a little more careful about when he burns essence without making it overly painful to do so. Just a thought, the system should be okay either way.

Akasin

Absorb Radiance: This should be (Su.) Does the 15 minutes spent meditating to activate this ability restore burned essence as well?

Luminosity: This should be (Sp) - including the ray, making it subject to SR (the reliable damage and blindness rider make it good enough.) In fact, I would consider reducing the blind to 1d4 rounds instead of 1d6. Otherwise no problems here.

Lambent Blades: This should be (Su.) Otherwise no problems here.

Lucent Revivification: This should be (Sp.) Otherwise no problems here.

Scintillant Form: This should be (Su.) Does the constant daylight granted by this form mean that the Akasin can meditate to Absorb Radiance anywhere?

Incandescent Strike: This should be (Su.) Otherwise no problems here.

Travel the Paths of Light: This should be (Sp.) Does this follow the same restrictions as the teleport spell, e.g. familiarity with destination? If you try to teleport somewhere you think has normal light and it turns out that it doesn’t, does the ability simply fail, or does the Guru suffer a Mishap? Similarly, if you try to teleport to a destination with normal light, but end up with an “off-target” result on the destination roll and would instead get shunted into a dark room nearby, what happens?

Sineater

Devour Sin: This should probably be (Ex.) Also, I would change it to “to an enemy creature with Intelligence 3 or greater.” Otherwise the party can bring in disposable summons, familiars or other cannon fodder and the Sineater can nonlethally punch all his essence burn away between fights, even during a time-sensitive mission, much faster than he would need to meditate it away; he could even punch himself. For the damage prevention ability, just specify “hit point damage” and you won’t need that additional sentence about not working on ability damage or drain.

Veil of Sins: This should be (Ex) or (Su.) Overall I like the changes here. The regeneration ability is pretty powerful, especially at 12th level - good-aligned PCs are common and good-aligned enemy attacks are rare, so effectively a good-aligned Sineater can become nigh-immortal. Not saying it’s a problem, just something to be aware of.

Purify the Unclean: It’s not clear whether the additional damage from this ability is converted to nonlethal if you activate it via Gentle Touch instead of via a philosophy weapon. Keep in mind also that there are several very evil outsiders that actually lack the subtype, such as Efreeti and Rakshasas, who are thus immune to this ability; you may want to say evil Outsiders instead. Also, I think evil (i.e. chromatic) dragons should be subject to this as well, they’re at least as evil as aberrations.

Reforge the Soul: This should be (Sp.) Otherwise no problems here.

Inescapable: This should be (Ex) or (Su.) Otherwise no problems here.

Maelstrom of Sin: This should be (Su.) Secondly, how does this interact with Inescapable? Does the Sineater get to make free grapple attempts against everyone he hits? And if so, how many foes can he grapple at once? If he lands multiple grapples simultaneously, can he choose which one(s) to grapple and which not to?

Wages of Sin: This should be (Su.) What is the duration of the paralysis effect?


Vayist

Aether Ties: This should be (Su.) Can you attach multiple ties to the same creature? Also, can you attach ties to allies (penalizing their attacks) in order to boost your AC vs. an enemy? Can you attach a tie to yourself?

Aether Infusion: This should be (Su). You may want to specify the action needed to activate the blur and mirror image; right now it seems that they can be activated during a ranged attack like the first ability.

Leaf on the Wind: This should be (Ex) or (Su.) Otherwise no problems here.

Revitalizing Breath: This should be (Sp.) Otherwise no problems here.

Breath of the East Wind: This should be (Sp.) Does the alter winds effect move with you? If so, this has the potential to cause some odd interactions. For example, what happens if you move into an area with different wind speed, such as sailing into a storm? Or what happens if someone casts gust of wind at you? Or what happens if you become gaseous? Can you combine the alter winds and air walk effects to fly around by pushing yourself? For the river of wind effect, does transporting yourself past enemies provoke an attack of opportunity? Is it a teleportation effect? Can you only do it once per river even though the river lasts multiple rounds? What ability score do you use to set the river’s DC? (I’m assuming Wis here but by RAW it may be Cha unless specified otherwise..)

Roaring Gale: This should be (Ex) or (Su.) “As part of a full round action” - does this mean that Roaring Gale can be used as part of other full round actions, such as charging or running?

Perfect Independence: This should be (Su), which would also save you real estate by removing the second sentence.

3) Guru Veils

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Circlet of Brass: This one seems fine.

Collar of Skilled Instruction: Does essence increase the range at which you can share your teamwork feat as well as the range you can aid with? Also, when the effect says it scales with level (“3 rounds + 1 round for every two levels”) does this refer to character level or veilweaving level?

Courtesan’s Cloak: This one seems fine.

Coward’s Boots: This one seems fine.

Diadem of Pure Reflection: How do the Head and Headband binds interact with area attacks? Say someone casts Sunburst or Glitterdust at you and your allies, and you have the Headband bind on and make your save - will the whole effect be reflected, or will you be the only one protected? What is the range on the redirection for the headband - can you force an enemy who is outside the area of the spell to make a save or be blinded? Does the new target have to be able to see you, and if so, do you need line of effect as well as line of sight?

Dreamcatcher: With the Headband bind, do enemies who stay near the veilweaver have a chance at figuring out what’s up? Say they keep succeeding at their will save while near you, they will be getting a hostile tingle every 18 seconds - can they figure out where it’s coming from?

Eyes of the Archer Lord: This one seems fine. Just true seeing is weak at level 20 though, even if it’s constant - I would add something to this, like the ability to see 15ft. through solid obstacles for 1 round if you focus your vision as a move action.

Forcestrike Knuckles: This one seems fine.

Gloves of the Master Thief: This one seems fine.

Guardian Sash: This one seems fine.

Hands of the Bard: This one seems fine.

Immaculate Touch: This should probably have the [Healing] descriptor.. Is this meant to be a Guru veil? Right now it only says “Class: Daevic.” Does essence also increase the maximum amount you can heal with this ability per target? Does the healing cap also apply to the damage you can deal to an undead creature? Finally, note that you can use the Hands bind to heal a single hit point to an ally while bestowing a wide variety of status removal effects on them via the Mercy ability - I think the Hands bind should be limited to 3/day/person.

Immovable Boots: This should probably have the [Earth] descriptor. Also, I would add “and similar materials” to the soft earth and sand bit of the Feet bind, to cover corner cases like gravel, silt or mud.

Lavawalker’s Boots: This one seems fine.

Martyr’s Toga: This should have the [Healing] descriptor. Unfortunately, I think this is way too weak to be a Body bind. I would change it to at least Belt, and/or add on additional effects like the ability to restore ability damage/drain to a single score equal to the essence invested along with the healing. The unbound ability is fine.

Snakehandler’s Gauntlets: I still think this should become Magic and Slashing, perhaps after a certain threshold (e.g. “if you invest 4 or more essentia.”) DR/magic just isn’t useful past around 5th level. The bind is fine.

Stalker’s Tabi: This one seems fine. (I assume the HiPS from the Belt Bind functions like that of the Shadowdancer - i.e. you can hide even while being observed by something that has darkvision.)

Stone Giant’s Girdle: This one seems fine.

[Ssalarn]

Thanks for the run-down Psyren.

To touch on a few real quick-

Disjunction- You make a good point. I will re-evaluate that and see if suppression might not be a better way to go. I think one thing to keep in mind, is that a Vizier can bounce back fairly handily from having his Veils blasted, and the Guru and the Daevic both have very valid options outside of their Veils. That being said, you're right, for 2 of the 3 classes it would be like an Inquisitor or Bard straight up losing access to their spellcasting until they could take an extended rest due to one spell, and that's not a good thing.

Gentle Touch still needs a little smoothing out, which I will address ASAP. I meant to fix it in this update and honestly that particular note just got lost in the shuffle. The basic rundown is that when you've got Essence invested in it, all of the physical damage you deal (basically anything that would be affected by DR) should be dealt as non-lethal. Energy effects and SLA's from Veils would not be affected (though I did consider that).

Hands- It was meant to affect attacks from that particular attack form, so currently, yeah, a monk could get around it by saying he's kicking instead. And rays that are fired from the eyes like in Circlet of Brass as opposed to like Scorching Ray which is fired from the hand would also ignore that nerf. Does that seem too confusing?

I'll make the adjustment to feet to note that it should be base speed.

Body- So, I know exhaustion seems weird, but it's actually a pretty nasty effect if you don't have a way to get around it, and generally only Barbarians and some Paladins do. Restoration is a fairly high level spell to have to burn to remove the condition, and sleeping, while effective, isn't really a combat solution most of the time.

Sunder Veil & Crack the Shell- The Essence would return to their Essence Pool and could be used for other purposes. I'll clarify that. If an item with Essence invested in it is destroyed the Essence would return to the original source or dissipate if that source were no longer available (although I was playing around with an idea for Essence-based liches that didn't follow that rule...). I'll get that added to the primary Essence rules.

Immaculate Touch- This should be a shared Veil that both the Daevic and Guru have access to. I'll fix the Veil entry.

[Psyren]

Thanks for the quick reply! Concerning Disrupt Body,you don't actually need a high level spell - two castings of Lesser Restoration (or two potions of same) gets rid of exhaustion too; or they can just do one to downgrade it to fatigued. Aside from the inability to charge or rage it's something many characters can safely ignore (or are just plain immune to by that point), especially at high levels. I'm not saying exhaustion is a bad condition to inflict, just that it's very weak for that level on its own (particularly to one target at a time), and is certainly weaker than blind/stun.

I'm currently going through the Daevic and this one seems to be going more quickly than the other two (knock on wood). I also went through the updated Vizier and cleared my notes, great job with the upgrade!

[Ziegander]

So, in the interest of full-disclosure, I stopped posting in this thread when I saw the alpha version of the Daevic because it looked incredibly boring to me and between working a job I hated and trying to stay on task with my own creative endeavors, I didn't have the time or energy to try and help you out with your creation.

That said, between all the feedback and everything about the class that I'm reading currently, things are definitely looking on the up and up for the Vizier and the Guru. If you need any help still with the Daevic, I quit that terrible job, so for a at least a couple weeks I will be available for consulting work. :)

You said you're feeling good about the Vizier and the Guru, so what is it about the Daevic that you're still uncomfortable or unhappy with? What do you think needs work?

[Ssalarn]

I get a lot of conflicting feedback with the Daevic. I've literally had people tell me that the exact same class features/Veils/etc. are either incredibly weak or ridiculously overpowered. Two different groups of experienced gamers giving me totally opposite information. So I'm just trying to get a better feel for where it's really at, and at this point it means I need broader baseline, just more information and feedback in general, particularly as regards the balance of the various Passions to each other, and the balance of the total class as a whole compared to peer classes like the Barbarian, Bloodrager, Cavalier, Inquisitor, Magus, Paladin, and Ranger.

[Ziegander]

I get a lot of conflicting feedback with the Daevic. I've literally had people tell me that the exact same class features/Veils/etc. are either incredibly weak or ridiculously overpowered. Two different groups of experienced gamers giving me totally opposite information. So I'm just trying to get a better feel for where it's really at, and at this point it means I need broader baseline, just more information and feedback in general, particularly as regards the balance of the various Passions to each other, and the balance of the total class as a whole compared to peer classes like the Barbarian, Bloodrager, Cavalier, Inquisitor, Magus, Paladin, and Ranger.

Okay, I'll try and give you a full review like Psyren is doing. I'll work on it later tonight.

[Ssalarn]

Much appreciated. Also, let me know if there's something you wish was there that isn't. The class has changed a lot, even before the alpha was released for public playtesting, and the Daevic has been the center of a lot of pushing and pulling from various directions, and one or two strong "suggestions" from the powers that be, and she looks a lot different from what I'd first envisioned when I wrote the class that would become the Daevic. Not necessarily a bad thing as a lot of people have been pretty happy with it, but like I said, it just isn't sitting quite right with me like the Vizier and Guru are. I feel good about the Vizier. A Veil-based controller with lots of cool area of effect tricks? Hell yeah!
I feel good about the Guru (he's kind of my favorite), because he fills a really good role in the party and he does it in a way that's pretty different from how everyone else does it.
The Daevic... I feel like she's missing something, and part of that is because no one seems to be able to agree on where she's at, and part of it is because of the simple fact that sometimes mechanical needs interfere with thematic wants. Maybe it's just me and I'll feel better about her after I get a bit more feedback.


**Edit** On a kind of random note, the Vizier and Guru have always been "he" in my head, while the Daevic has always been "she". Is that weird? Are there classes that other people kind of automatically think of as being male or female? I also do it with Cavaliers and Rangers, I tend to think of Rangers as female personas and Cavaliers as male.
In getting ready to do the art orders for the upcoming .pdfs I was thinking of the Vizier as a half-elf male, the Daevic as a human woman, and the Guru as a male dwarf.

[Psyren]

**Edit** On a kind of random note, the Vizier and Guru have always been "he" in my head, while the Daevic has always been "she". Is that weird? Are there classes that other people kind of automatically think of as being male or female? I also do it with Cavaliers and Rangers, I tend to think of Rangers as female personas and Cavaliers as male.
In getting ready to do the art orders for the upcoming .pdfs I was thinking of the Vizier as a half-elf male, the Daevic as a human woman, and the Guru as a male dwarf.

Just about every class is male in my head except the Wilder and Sorcerer, mostly because for those two the image that pops into my mind is that of their iconics. Couldn't really say why.

For Daevic I was thinking male, especially reading the Desire Passion and what they would have to do to... ah... commune every morning.

[PsyBomb]

Quick system notes: I'm used to Incarnum and do not consider it overly complicated, but the suggestions above to be able to shape anything anywhere and only have limits to Binding locations has some merit. Lessens book-keeping and increases flexibility overall. I think there should also be a note somewhere on how to suppress the visual displays of the Veils, since otherwise you have to strip yourself defenseless in a town unless you want to advertise exactly who and what you are at all times (a big problem the one time I tried an Urban Infiltrator-style Incarnate in the 3.5 system)

Not yet on the files, but one detail I ran into when playing Incarnum before was the PrCs opening up binds that I already had (or the base classes doing so when I got back to them). I am wondering how you're going to handle this detail. Anyway, on to the Vizier quick-review.

Vizier quick review (by: myself and 3 friends)

Note: this is not the in-depth try-to-break-it, just our initial look.

Eldritch Insight: "Yay! I get my Artificer back!" This ability provides a very interesting (and possibly breakable) alternate playstyle to what is probably intended, since you can pick up Master Craftsman along with Path of the Crafter abilities to get a good long stock of charged items and just charge them up yourself, giving you basically a 16th-level wizard with 30 spell slots of any level you choose. Depending on if the DM lets you get away with cheese, crafting undercharged wands and similar can get to be a good tactic.***note: Discussed by Psiren and I below, my group misinterpreted this initially. While you can't make the wands and staves yourself, if you find them or can buy them they are essentially in your armory forever***

Path of the Crafter-
Transfer Essence: Does it have to be ALL enchantments of both transferred? Earlier discussion on the thread indicates otherwise, but the text of the ability indicates all-or-nothing. So, for example, I can't take a +1 Flaming Dagger and a +1 Shocking Dagger to make a +1 Flaming Shocking Dagger. While this is for the better (otherwise you break WBL in half by crafting a weak weapon with one good ability to transfer off), it may be best to specify so that people don't try to cheese it.

Path of the Seer-
Teamwork Feats: There are a LOT of notable standouts here, especially if your group has multiple melee. Coordinated Charge, Lookout, and Pack Tactics are likely to be very commonly used.
Foresee Conflict: Love being able to retrain! Shared veils could be excessively powerful, but not sure. Need to check the Veils first (will note there)

Essence Bond: Current wording requires that you actually wear something there to gain a benefit, and specifically that you can't bind a Veil period (not just unable to use these effects) if you're naked. Might be awkward in some situations. Also may want to specify that the Vizier affects himself with these when he uses them, since it is implied by a couple but not specified.
Lvl2-Hands: Love it
Lvl4-Feet: Also love it, but might want to specify that it affects those within range of where his move ended for clarity.
Lvl6-Head: REALLY niche, though racking up +8 to your team's saves against a sonic-using opponent is game-changing if you know the fight is coming.
Lvl8-Wrist: Pity it isn't shared, but decent if your enemy is using one of those moves regularly
Lvl10-Shoulders: Flippin' worthless even if it had come online at level 1. At 10, it might as well not exist. Even if it's just a minor skill bonus to Fly, at least that will be used.
Lvl12-Headband: Again not shared. Perception bonus is always very nice to have, I like it and will usually have Headband stuffed full of Essence out of combat as a result.
Lvl14-Neck: Would have been nice ten levels ago, but most players are highly resistant to or immune to fear by now, and Perform is not used at these levels unless you're a bard. Won't be utilized unless there is a PrC Viz/Brd combo.
Lvl16-Belt: Good. Immunities are frequent, but these are NASTY effects you're helping to resist, just in case.
Lvl18-Chest: Considering the power of Chest binds, this ability means that you have to be killed outright or you'll just stand back up. I like it.
Lvl20-Body: Good bonus... but if someone is wasting time on a combat maneuver outside of hugely focused builds and you're level 20, they've already lost. Pointless.
NOTE: No special ability exists for the unique Ring slot. Not sure if this is intended, or just because the last ability hits at 20 already.

Veilshifting: May want to note that the hour of meditation allows any number of rebinds, not one-by-one, or else you may end up meditating away half the adventuring day to come back to full power after a shift.

Veilweaving: Woof, dis guy is focused... Ok, so you have enough slots to shape something EVERYWHERE, and bind all but one of them. This leads to a huge shortage of Essence once you get late into the game, but that is to be expected. As long as you're prudent about use, or lean on ones with good base effects, you're set... especially given how many feats you'll be taking that give extra Essence (first playtest build has +8 by level 20).

I'm only going to note Veils that need something pointed out.

Bloody Shroud: I should point out that a good number of Veils have the Evil descriptor, when I can't recall any at all having the Good. This restricts good-aligned Viziers painfully, since several of these are very good.

Circlet of Brass: The Artificer-style build capped this out, no binding it, with an Essence-stuffed Wand of Scorching Ray (highest CL you can make that is an extra ray). Does it apply once per spell, or once per ray?

Collar of Skilled Instruction: Could be used with Foresee Conflict to stack huge Aid Another bonuses, but that isn't so much of a concern since it would take your entire team blowing a turn.

Coward's Boots: Does Essence in the Boots with the bind ability stack with any you have in Essence of Movement? If they do, it's not game-breaking, but +16 AC against AoOs for movement is kinda neat if you need it.

Dark Lord's Ring of Essence-Binding: Cute, but ultimately just a parlor trick unless you're abusing him for Teamwork feats or having your entire team animate one each for cannon fodder via Foresee Conflict sharing.

Deathchannel Ring: There was an interesting suggested tactic if you have a team that has several Essence users that also heal off of negative energy... mostly going to be a parlor trick encounter for evil DMs to use on unsuspecting parties.

Gorget of the Wyrm: It will not likely ever come up in normal play, but if bound to Throat there is literally no difference between the 0 and 1 essence breath weapon.

Hand Cannons: We assume that the BAB replacement includes additional iteratives, along with effects of Deadly Aim etc. Can be good damage output if you keep it maxxed out with feat support (and can be boosted by Teamwork as well).

Horns of the Minotaur: Unless my entire group is missing something big, this is worthless on the Vizier. Nat Attack-focused Daevics are something else, but that's a different post.

Light Whip: Highly interesting. Against a group of trippable opponents, given that you would have Combat Reflexes, locks a group down constantly. Hilarious when shared.

Ring of the Abjurer: A bit of an odd duck, it SHOULD be awesome, but it can't be learned by a feat and Viziers have light armor proficiency. If you're willing to heavily invest into it this can be a lot of armor, but generally won't be worth it since you can't get armor special abilities on it. Left me feeling vaguely disappointed.

Riven Darts: Rogues love it as a feat, free sneak touch-attacks with the Force descriptor. At base, it'll get early use but won't see much later on unless you're ghost-hunting.

Snakehandler's Gauntlets: DR/magic will be useless from roughly 5th level onwards, the poison resist will be good slightly longer. I'm sure someone can figure out how to use the weapon poison better than I can.

Spiked Pauldrons: Still giggling about the rabid dire porcupine comment... but anyway, may want to drop the word "wicked" from the description of the shoulder bind or people will assume it's Evil-aligned.

Storm Gauntlets: Seems abusable if you can get enough essence into it on a class that can manage 4+ attacks per round. A TWF Daevic, if it ends up a thing, will probably make this one rather twisted if they can spare the Hand slot. We'll be doing that class tomorrow on the initial read

Vestments of the Maharaja: This is going to depend heavily on the DM. Triggering the ability against foes who would be willing to fight for you against former allies is brutal, but by level 18 this won't come up often.

Vorpal Guards: Kind of anemic, really, unless you're REALLY scared of crits. I don't know many DMs who are evil enough to use Vorpal weapons on enemies without tons of warning and/or a way to negate it.

Feats on next post...

[PsyBomb]

Incarna Feats in this document:

-note: again, I will only be writing things down here if we had something to say one way or the other.

Access <blank> Chakra: As stated before, you will want to clarify whether or not this gives people who don't have a Bind slot class feature the ability to actually use a bind, or if it only opens the slot.

Chakra-Enhanced Fortitude: I'm assuming that there are supposed to be Reflex and Will versions of this, though they aren't on the document. Found them, much later on. May want to rename them to get them closer to each other on the list, but that's low priority

Essence Focus: Ultimately pointless, as it only reduces to move-action and any manifester worth their salt will have Psionic Meditation already. If it gave a point of Essence, it might be used.

Essence of Movement: PLEASE let this count as Mobility for prerequisites! Right now the two feats aren't much good, but that at least would allow a +1 essence benefit along the way to, say, Spring Attack.

Extra Essence: Wish it was 2/3, or that there was some way to take it more than once, but I understand that it will be takes as often as possible by any Veilweaver.

Extra Essence Capacity: typo, missed a comma in the prereqs after "level 7"

Incarna Augmentation: Discussed by others, specify whether it reduces the total or each augmentation. Hopefully the former, since the latter invites Metapsionic stacking abuse

Life Bond: Typo: the word "As" is accidentally in all caps.

Tainted Chakra: Mechanically, I can appreciate this existing. By fluff, why bother at all with making the feat and the opposite-alignment restriction? It's all just a feat tax for Good Veilweavers.


I hope this helps. I'll be doing the Daeva writeup as soon as we pool our notes, though this weekend is Purim and I won't have as much time as usual. One of the guys is writing a quick one-shot for level 6, and the team is going to be entirely Essence-based. That will be next weekend, though, not this one.

[Psyren]

Eldritch Insight: "Yay! I get my Artificer back!" This ability provides a very interesting (and possibly breakable) alternate playstyle to what is probably intended, since you can pick up Master Craftsman along with Path of the Crafter abilities to get a good long stock of charged items and just charge them up yourself, giving you basically a 16th-level wizard with 30 spell slots of any level you choose. Depending on if the DM lets you get away with cheese, crafting undercharged wands and similar can get to be a good tactic.

Please note that even though Viziers get Craft Staff, they can't actually make any, even with Master Craftsman. Nor can they make wands, scrolls or potions. In Pathfinder, to make those items you must provide the spell requirement - it cannot be skipped when making spell-trigger/spell-completion items.

What they CAN do is convert other wands/staves that they have already found/bought into the ones they want, by draining the charges with Transfer the Essence; even then however they will need the item they actually want to have/use handy to move the charges into. So they don't quite become wizards since they'll still need to rely on the DM to get the specific staff/wand they need, at least initially.

[PsyBomb]

Huh, that's a pity... actually, it makes a good point. Why have Craft Staff on the Vizier if he can't use it at all? The rules (per SRD) disallow making spell-trigger or spell-completion items (or potions) without meeting all prereqs, so unless there are a few staves coming in the book that don't have spell requirements it is a wasted "bonus".

Wondrous Items, Rings, Arms and Armor, and Rods are all still legit feats to use without other prereqs (if you pimp out your spellcraft, anyway).

While I'm here, I have one other Veil comment. Martyr's Toga probably needs a note about maximum range, since as currently worded you can have someone using it every round from a pocket dimension.

[stack]

You can have someone else supply the spells though. It would save them from needing the feat. Have to look up the citation.

[Psyren]

You can have someone else supply the spells though. It would save them from needing the feat. Have to look up the citation.

Indeed you can - and can even supply them yourself if you have an additional wand/staff. By relying on your "free" charges from invested essence you can copy a favorite staff or wand, using the spells from one to create the other without draining its actual charges.

But since you need the very staff/wand you want to start with, this is not as good as being an actual wizard. It's a strong ability but the DM does have ways of keeping it in check.

[PsyBomb]

I guess that makes sense. Now, a couple of burning questions before I can really get into the Daevic.

1) Does the Passion count as a legal target for either Extra Essence Capacity or Enhanced Veil Capacity?

2) Does the class ability "Improved Essence Capacity" improve the capacity of your Feats as well? I only ask since the wording of the class indicates that it helps the Passion, but Feats aren't Chakras

[Ssalarn]

I guess that makes sense. Now, a couple of burning questions before I can really get into the Daevic.

1) Does the Passion count as a legal target for either Extra Essence Capacity or Enhanced Veil Capacity?

2) Does the class ability "Improved Essence Capacity" improve the capacity of your Feats as well? I only ask since the wording of the class indicates that it helps the Passion, but Feats aren't Chakras

This is something I've actually decided to fix for simplicity's sake. Extra Essence Capacity and Enhanced Veil Capacity will be condensed into a single feat that will allow you to raise the capacity of any one Essence receptacle, and the class ability "Improved Essence Capacity" should apply to anything you can invest Essence into.

[PsyBomb]

This is something I've actually decided to fix for simplicity's sake. Extra Essence Capacity and Enhanced Veil Capacity will be condensed into a single feat that will allow you to raise the capacity of any one Essence receptacle, and the class ability "Improved Essence Capacity" should apply to anything you can invest Essence into.

Thank you, I'll make sure to keep these in mind both in the coming playtest and in the Daevic review. You may want to remove the word "chakra" from the Improved Essence Capacity description, since people who are used to Incarnum have the Incarnate ability in mind (which ONLY affected Soulmelds) and are predisposed towards that interpretation if it presents itself.

EDIT: Trying my hardest to break the Daevic ends in a 48d6 pounce (via Tengu Rogue archetype "Swordmaster" at 3) off of 8 natural attacks against touch AC, 64d6 if I have a partner flanking. That's doable at level 18 (barely) if you're Wrathful, impossible if not. This also assumes that Stormlord's Gauntlets can work on Natural Weapon attacks, which I think works. 224 average damage that can be hampered by common resists? I've seen way worse (heck, I've DONE way worse), and the flexibility granted by individual veils if you're not expecting major combat that day land the class smoothly into the T3-4 range, which I consider the ideal of class design. Job well done, individual nitpicks will be coming soon enough (and will be a separate post)