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    Default The Questellan [D&D 3.5, Learn ALL of the Extraordinary Abilities!]

    The Questellan


    Alignment: Any
    Hit Die: 1d8

    Class Skills: All skills are class skills for a Questellan.
    Skill Points at 1st Level: (6 + Int modifier) × 4
    Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 6 + Int modifier

    Level BAB Fort Ref Will Special
    1st +1 +1 +1 +1 Extraordinary Expertise (Tier 0)
    2nd +2 +1 +1 +1
    3rd +3 +2 +2 +2
    4th +4 +2 +2 +2 Extraordinary Expertise (Tier 1)
    5th +5 +3 +3 +3
    6th +6/+1 +3 +3 +3
    7th +7/+2 +3 +3 +3
    8th +8/+3 +4 +4 +4 Extraordinary Expertise (Tier 2)
    9th +9/+4 +4 +4 +4
    10th +10/+5 +5 +5 +5
    11th +11/+6/+1 +5 +5 +5
    12th +12/+7/+2 +6 +6 +6 Extraordinary Expertise (Tier 3)
    13th +13/+8/+3 +6 +6 +6
    14th +14/+9/+4 +6 +6 +6
    15th +15/+10/+5 +7 +7 +7
    16th +16/+11/+6/+1 +7 +7 +7 Extraordinary Expertise (Tier 4)
    17th +17/+12/+7/+2 +8 +8 +8
    18th +18/+13/+8/+3 +8 +8 +8
    19th +19/+14/+9/+4 +8 +8 +8
    20th +20/+15/+10/+5 +9 +9 +9 Extraordinary Expertise (Tier 5)

    Weapon and Armor Proficiency
    A Questellan is proficient with all simple weapons, plus the longsword, rapier, sap, short sword, shortbow, and whip. A Questellan is proficient with light armor as well as shields (but not Tower Shields).

    Extraordinary Expertise (Ex): A Questellan can learn to use any extraordinary ability of creatures that share her creature type (though, if her biology would not ordinarily support such an ability, then she may learn it but she can't use it until and if her body is capable of performing the ability; for more details see below). She begins play with the knowledge of a single extraordinary ability and automatically learns one more at every Questellan level beyond the first. She may select these extraordinary abilities from all those available to creatures whose total Hit Dice do not exceed her class level. If she selects an ability that improves with class level (such as Sneak Attack) or HD, then she uses that ability with an effective class level or HD equal to her Questellan level minus four.

    Starting at 4th level, choose one of the following creature types: Aberration, Construct, Humanoid, Outsider, or Undead. You may select extraordinary abilities from creatures of that creature type regardless of your own creature type.

    Starting at 8th level, choose one of the following creature types: Animal, Giant, Monstrous Humanoid, or Vermin. You may select extraordinary abilities from creatures of that creature type regardless of your own creature type.

    Starting at 12th level, choose one of the following creature types: Fey, Magical Beast, or Plant. You may select extraordinary abilities from creatures of that creature type regardless of your own creature type.

    Starting at 16th level, choose one of the following creature types: Dragon, Elemental, or Ooze. You may select extraordinary abilities from creatures of that creature type regardless of your own creature type.

    At 20th level, a Questellan may select extraordinary abilities from creatures of any creature type.

    Learning extraordinary abilities never changes the Questellan's form (she does not spontaneously grow claws with which to Rake, for example). This does not stop her from using extraordinary abilities which change her form when used (such as Mimic Shape). Extraordinary abilities are not natural abilities (things like a creature's speed and movement forms, natural armor bonus, or natural attacks). When in doubt, if an ability is not labeled "(Ex)" then it is not an extraordinary ability (this is not always true, example: most feats; ask your DM any time you are unsure whether an ability is or isn't extraordinary).

    A Questellan may learn extraordinary abilities beyond the ones automatically granted to her through her class levels. To do so, the Questellan must experience it in some way (most of the time just seeing the new ability is sufficient, but at the DM's discretion the Questellan may also hear, taste, smell, or touch an ability and will occasionally need to in order to learn an ability) and succeed with a modified level check (1d20 + class level + Int modifier), DC 15 + total Hit Dice of the creature using the ability. The HD of the creature using the ability cannot exceed her Questellan level. If her check fails she may not attempt to learn that extraordinary ability again until she gains a new Questellan level. However, if her check is successful, then she may spend time, gp, and XP to learn the ability. The whole process requires 8 hours of practice per HD of the creature she learns it from (this practice needs not be taken consecutively, but must be completed within one month) as well as 200 × HD experience points and 200 × HD² gold pieces.

    Though there is no strict limit on the number of extraordinary abilities a Questellan may learn with this ability, a Questellan may only utilize a number of extraordinary abilities at one time up to her class level. She may change which abilities she is currently using once per day with an hour of practice and study.

    Many feats are extraordinary abilities and can be learned in this way, though the Questellan must meet any such feat's prerequisites. While "systems" such as spellcasting or maneuvers are generally considered extraordinary abilities, those abilities, which grant other classes the meat of their power and versatility, are beyond a Questellan's grasp, and thus she may never use Extraordinary Expertise to learn them. On the other hand, a Questellan may learn many other class features available to creatures with class levels at the lowest HD they would become available, provided the class feature is an extraordinary ability (for example, she could learn Uncanny Dodge at 2nd level, if she chose). A Questellan may not learn the same extraordinary ability more than once, except in the case of abilities that share a name but that function differently (as is the case with various forms of Regeneration, Improved Grab, etc).
    Last edited by Ziegander; 2015-07-16 at 07:48 PM.
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    Default Re: The Questellan [D&D 3.5, Learn ALL of the Extraordinary Abilities!]

    Interesting. I'd like to see some fluff abilities at higher levels-- that table is painfully bare-- but it'd definitely have a lot to do.

    It might be helpful to go through the SRD and pull out (Ex) abilities and the lowest level that they're available, to save players/DMs some time in evaluating the class. You probably also want to include some language about what is and isn't an (Ex) ability. (An eagle gets 80ft flight with 1 HD. Can I get a huge fly speed with a one-level dip?)

    I note that there's only a one-ability difference between your abilities known and your abilities available; is that intentional?

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    Default Re: The Questellan [D&D 3.5, Learn ALL of the Extraordinary Abilities!]

    Quote Originally Posted by Grod_The_Giant View Post
    Interesting. I'd like to see some fluff abilities at higher levels-- that table is painfully bare-- but it'd definitely have a lot to do.
    I am still considering fluff-like features at higher levels, but for the nonce it definitely does get something powerful and useful at every class level, so I don't think it's necessary.

    It might be helpful to go through the SRD and pull out (Ex) abilities and the lowest level that they're available, to save players/DMs some time in evaluating the class.
    For the record, I fully acknowledge this is probably Tier 1, or some sort of shadow figment Tier 1.5 that only nebulously exists in dream-stasis...

    Anyway, moving on, I agree. I was looking for a list of EX abilities on the internet, but sadly no such thing exists. I may work on it, but definitely not tonight or tomorrow.

    You probably also want to include some language about what is and isn't an (Ex) ability. (An eagle gets 80ft flight with 1 HD. Can I get a huge fly speed with a one-level dip?)
    I probably should at least note the difference between an extraordinary ability and a natural ability, you're right (I know you know the answer to your eagle question, but others may not).

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    I note that there's only a one-ability difference between your abilities known and your abilities available; is that intentional?
    I'm not sure what you're talking about here. You have potentially unlimited abilities known with a built in one known per class level. You are limited to a number of abilities available equal to your class level.
    Last edited by Ziegander; 2014-01-25 at 02:19 AM.
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    Default Re: The Questellan [D&D 3.5, Learn ALL of the Extraordinary Abilities!]

    We were sort of hijacking that thread, but I think that thread hasn't been on topic since the second post. ;P

    Quote Originally Posted by Ziegander View Post
    Well, it specifically can learn feats, so in theory it could learn ALL of the maneuvers through learning the feat 100 times, with the ability to use a number up to her Questellan level each once per encounter. But it cannot learn "Maneuvers," "Maneuvers Readied," or "Stances Known." Though that is still potentially troublingly powerful, so is nigh-unlimited feat access. At least the clause limiting her to only class level abilities at a time helps curb the power/versatility.
    Thinking about it, the core rules offer a possible balancing mechanic that comes out of a strict ruling: I would rule that there's no specific exemption of qualifying for the feats, and that the Questellan's class feature emulation doesn't apply as martial study is a feat not a class feature. So you would have to meet the initiator level (Using 1/2 questellan level = IL) and discipline maneuvers known requirements. I would further insist on you actively meeting the prerequisites of each feat to have it active, so if you had a martial study (4th level maneuver), I would insist on you having the 3 maneuvers from that school on your active Ex list to qualify for the feat.

    That would shut you out of higher level maneuvers entirely and force you to devote a healthy number of your ability slots towards being a ghetto initiator if you wanted to be one. That seems roughly equivalent to a fighter taking martial study as his bonus feat every level, with a dip into martial monk for some extra feats.

    The only issue I see with that ruling is that shuts you out of learning Ex feats that you don't qualify for... seems like a feature rather than a bug, depending on how you look at it?

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    Default Re: The Questellan [D&D 3.5, Learn ALL of the Extraordinary Abilities!]

    Quote Originally Posted by Norren View Post
    Thinking about it, the core rules offer a possible balancing mechanic that comes out of a strict ruling: I would rule that there's no specific exemption of qualifying for the feats, and that the Questellan's class feature emulation doesn't apply as martial study is a feat not a class feature. So you would have to meet the initiator level (Using 1/2 questellan level = IL) and discipline maneuvers known requirements. I would further insist on you actively meeting the prerequisites of each feat to have it active, so if you had a martial study (4th level maneuver), I would insist on you having the 3 maneuvers from that school on your active Ex list to qualify for the feat.

    That would shut you out of higher level maneuvers entirely and force you to devote a healthy number of your ability slots towards being a ghetto initiator if you wanted to be one. That seems roughly equivalent to a fighter taking martial study as his bonus feat every level, with a dip into martial monk for some extra feats.
    Indeed. Good points all.

    The only issue I see with that ruling is that shuts you out of learning Ex feats that you don't qualify for... seems like a feature rather than a bug, depending on how you look at it?
    I definitely call it a feature. I will emphatically include the ruling in the official rules.
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    Default Re: The Questellan [D&D 3.5, Learn ALL of the Extraordinary Abilities!]

    Quote Originally Posted by Ziegander View Post
    I'm not sure what you're talking about here. You have potentially unlimited abilities known with a built in one known per class level. You are limited to a number of abilities available equal to your class level.
    ...I'm so sorry, apparently I should have gone to bed, like, two hours ago, because I've lost my ability to critically read. Somehow I entirely missed that the "automatically learns a new one at every Questellan level beyond the first" mechanism wasn't the only way you learn (Ex) abilities.
    Last edited by Grod_The_Giant; 2014-01-18 at 01:18 AM.

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    Default Re: The Questellan [D&D 3.5, Learn ALL of the Extraordinary Abilities!]

    That's okay. I have attempted to make it clearer. Upon examining the (Ex) abilities of creatures in the SRD I already see a few incredibly broken abilities (that I will not list here), and one or two that would be broken regardless of what level you learned them to say nothing of the low level that they become available. But this can be said of some spells as well, so I see no reason to alter the class at the moment.
    Last edited by Ziegander; 2014-01-18 at 01:34 AM.
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    Default Re: The Questellan [D&D 3.5, Learn ALL of the Extraordinary Abilities!]

    Btw. Probably an error but elf traits are listed as ex on the drop entry. Not the most powerful set of traits but still probably not the type of stuff your thinking for this class.
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    Default Re: The Questellan [D&D 3.5, Learn ALL of the Extraordinary Abilities!]

    Quote Originally Posted by Virdish View Post
    Btw. Probably an error but elf traits are listed as ex on the drop entry. Not the most powerful set of traits but still probably not the type of stuff your thinking for this class.
    Ha! That is interesting, and definitely what I would have normally imagined to be the poster child for "natural ability," but nonetheless, I don't mind the Questellan having access to ALL of the racial traits. After all, he has access to a lot of "monster racial traits," such as a Magmin's Fiery Aura or an Ettin's Superior Two-Weapon Fighting.
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    Default Re: The Questellan [D&D 3.5, Learn ALL of the Extraordinary Abilities!]

    There is a problem of some abilities not being available that should, like the Grafted Armor of a Ragewalker (which has 22 HD but is a CR 16-17 IIRC), which is a fairly weak ability late game.
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    Default Re: The Questellan [D&D 3.5, Learn ALL of the Extraordinary Abilities!]

    At the very least this class screams of being a know it all and story teller. As such some knowledge and gather information oriented abilities would seem appropriate.

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    Default Re: The Questellan [D&D 3.5, Learn ALL of the Extraordinary Abilities!]

    This class looks really cool, and perfectly playable in hold hands (and either useless or broken in other hands). It's got a rather lower optimization floor, and an extraordinarily high one, but it looks like it'd no ally be somewhere in the middle.

    My one suggestion is adding an XP/time cost for learning new abilities, similar to a psionic character who wants to learn extra powers. That prevents anyone from actually trying to learn all of the extraordinary abilities at once, while not being unreasonable (might need to come with a few extra free abilities, though; maybe one every three or four levels).
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    Default Re: The Questellan [D&D 3.5, Learn ALL of the Extraordinary Abilities!]

    Quote Originally Posted by EdroGrimshell View Post
    There is a problem of some abilities not being available that should, like the Grafted Armor of a Ragewalker (which has 22 HD but is a CR 16-17 IIRC), which is a fairly weak ability late game.
    Should I change it to CR? I don't know that it would help anything, and I know it would cause different issues. The one thing I knew going into this was that I needed the Questellan not to learn other classes' class features before those other classes got them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Amnoriath View Post
    At the very least this class screams of being a know it all and story teller. As such some knowledge and gather information oriented abilities would seem appropriate.
    Not the worst ideas in the world, I grant you. But, then, it can just learn abilities like Lore, Dark Knowledge, etc... so I go back and forth on whether I feel like the class needs anything like that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zweisteine View Post
    My one suggestion is adding an XP/time cost for learning new abilities, similar to a psionic character who wants to learn extra powers.
    I think I will add that in, yes, that makes sense. Thank you.
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    Default Re: The Questellan [D&D 3.5, Learn ALL of the Extraordinary Abilities!]

    Quote Originally Posted by Ziegander View Post
    Should I change it to CR?
    Specific references to CR anywhere other than purely metagame rules like encounter difficulty, XP, or rewards always seem to me to be inelegant in the extreme. CR is not supposed to be visible in-game at all in any fashion.

    HD is not necessarily a super-great limitation, but it's more suitable.
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    Default Re: The Questellan [D&D 3.5, Learn ALL of the Extraordinary Abilities!]

    Holy cow, an kinda mundane class that is tier 1?

    That's kind of awesome, actually.

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    Default Re: The Questellan [D&D 3.5, Learn ALL of the Extraordinary Abilities!]

    At what level can you learn abilities pulled from PrCs?
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    Default Re: The Questellan [D&D 3.5, Learn ALL of the Extraordinary Abilities!]

    Quote Originally Posted by Heliomance View Post
    At what level can you learn abilities pulled from PrCs?
    By a strict reading, since it's based on HD, you can learn them based on the earliest entry level. So if you could enter a PrC at 3rd level, then that's when a Questellan could first learn that PrC's 1st level class feature (presuming its (Ex)).
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    Default Re: The Questellan [D&D 3.5, Learn ALL of the Extraordinary Abilities!]

    Quote Originally Posted by Ziegander View Post
    By a strict reading, since it's based on HD, you can learn them based on the earliest entry level. So if you could enter a PrC at 3rd level, then that's when a Questellan could first learn that PrC's 1st level class feature (presuming its (Ex)).
    But for many (most?) PrCs, earliest possible entry level is dependent entirely on optimisation skill. So many PrCs have early entry tricks - do they count?
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    Default Re: The Questellan [D&D 3.5, Learn ALL of the Extraordinary Abilities!]

    Quote Originally Posted by Heliomance View Post
    But for many (most?) PrCs, earliest possible entry level is dependent entirely on optimisation skill. So many PrCs have early entry tricks - do they count?
    Yes. The earliest entry level available in the campaign for any given PrC is the earliest that the Questellan could possibly get PrC (Ex) abilities.
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    Default Re: The Questellan [D&D 3.5, Learn ALL of the Extraordinary Abilities!]

    You could limit the types of creature's you can learn abilities from by level. Not sure whether that would do much large-scale or not, but it could put a hamper on shenanigans like hardness, splitting, and such things, postponing them to later levels.

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    Default Re: The Questellan [D&D 3.5, Learn ALL of the Extraordinary Abilities!]

    Quote Originally Posted by Waddacku View Post
    You could limit the types of creature's you can learn abilities from by level. Not sure whether that would do much large-scale or not, but it could put a hamper on shenanigans like hardness, splitting, and such things, postponing them to later levels.
    Well, I could really drop the gavel down and say that a Questellan can only learn (Ex) abilities from creatures that it shares a creature type with, but that (almost) seems unreasonably restrictive. When you consider that it can still learn just about any feat, any (Ex) class features, and still many other (Ex) monster abilities aside (depending on creature type), it's definitely still a very, very versatile class (just maybe not quite so much fun).
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    Default Re: The Questellan [D&D 3.5, Learn ALL of the Extraordinary Abilities!]

    I'm wondering whether you could pull a pun-oun with this.

    Anyone want to pull out Secrets of Sarlonia and check what type the bird-creature's bestow ability(or whatever it's called) is?

    Edit: it's supernatural, sadly.

    Now I want to play this in a game.
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    Default Re: The Questellan [D&D 3.5, Learn ALL of the Extraordinary Abilities!]

    That experience cost gets rather steep at higher levels. 20,000 to copy a 20 HD creature's abilities. You could level up on that.

    Perhaps something more linear, like 200 or 250 per HD. Those give 4,000 and 5,000 as costs at level 20, respectively (I recommend 250).
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    Default Re: The Questellan [D&D 3.5, Learn ALL of the Extraordinary Abilities!]

    Personally, I'd rather see a gp cost than an xp cost.

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    Default Re: The Questellan [D&D 3.5, Learn ALL of the Extraordinary Abilities!]

    Quote Originally Posted by The Dragon View Post
    I'm wondering whether you could pull a pun-oun with this.

    Anyone want to pull out Secrets of Sarlonia and check what type the bird-creature's bestow ability(or whatever it's called) is?

    Edit: it's supernatural, sadly.

    Now I want to play this in a game.
    Serpent Kingdoms, not Secrets of Sarlona. And it's called Manipulate Form.
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    Default Re: The Questellan [D&D 3.5, Learn ALL of the Extraordinary Abilities!]

    I would remove copying class features. If you can copy a barbarian's class features and put them on a class with other stuff, why have barbarians?

    Also, it needs to change form. As I recall, either raptoran, dragonborn, or both have wings as an ex ability (listed) that give flight. So, you can copy them, and fly without wings. As an ex.

    On the same point, rend with human fingers is useless.

    Maybe give it a connection to doppelgangers, kind of like DFA does to dragons. Like a Doppeltouched feat that makes you an ex shapechanger.
    I follow a general rule: better to ask and be told no than not to ask at all.

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    Default Re: The Questellan [D&D 3.5, Learn ALL of the Extraordinary Abilities!]

    Quote Originally Posted by Keledrath View Post
    I would remove copying class features. If you can copy a barbarian's class features and put them on a class with other stuff, why have barbarians?

    Also, it needs to change form. As I recall, either raptoran, dragonborn, or both have wings as an ex ability (listed) that give flight. So, you can copy them, and fly without wings. As an ex.

    On the same point, rend with human fingers is useless.

    Maybe give it a connection to doppelgangers, kind of like DFA does to dragons. Like a Doppeltouched feat that makes you an ex shapechanger.
    I believe the reasoning is this: when you have druids and wizards, does it matter that you made something that replaces the barbarian?

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    Default Re: The Questellan [D&D 3.5, Learn ALL of the Extraordinary Abilities!]

    Quote Originally Posted by Zweisteine View Post
    That experience cost gets rather steep at higher levels. 20,000 to copy a 20 HD creature's abilities. You could level up on that.

    Perhaps something more linear, like 200 or 250 per HD. Those give 4,000 and 5,000 as costs at level 20, respectively (I recommend 250).
    You're right. I did want it to be expensive, but I don't want people to lose a level learning a single new ability. I'll go back down to 250 per HD.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Dragon View Post
    Personally, I'd rather see a gp cost than an xp cost.
    If I do that, then I'll change the way it learns new abilities, but it's not a bad idea and I've been thinking of doing it anyway. I could add a gp cost (a rather steep one) and make it take actual time to learn the new abilities too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keledrath View Post
    Also, it needs to change form. As I recall, either raptoran, dragonborn, or both have wings as an ex ability (listed) that give flight. So, you can copy them, and fly without wings. As an ex.
    Odd that they don't reference the wings. Technically this works, and it isn't working as I intended, but I don't see it as overwhelmingly useful, and definitely not an argument that it needs to change form.

    I don't want the Questellan suddenly gaining claws to rend with. That's the point.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Dragon View Post
    I believe the reasoning is this: when you have druids and wizards, does it matter that you made something that replaces the barbarian?
    The Dragon has it right. This is meant to be a Tier 1 class not a Tier 4 or 5 class.
    Last edited by Ziegander; 2014-01-19 at 02:17 PM.
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    Default Re: The Questellan [D&D 3.5, Learn ALL of the Extraordinary Abilities!]

    So this [b]mundane[\b] class sees something flying (using wings), and acquires the ability to fly without wings, nonmagically? Do you see my objection?

    My objections aren't balance based, but thematic.
    I follow a general rule: better to ask and be told no than not to ask at all.

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    Default Re: The Questellan [D&D 3.5, Learn ALL of the Extraordinary Abilities!]

    Quote Originally Posted by Keledrath View Post
    So this [b]mundane[\b] class sees something flying (using wings), and acquires the ability to fly without wings, nonmagically? Do you see my objection?

    My objections aren't balance based, but thematic.
    I do, like I said, that's not working as intended, but editing the class to patch up one error will screw it up far worse for other things that I do intend for it to do.

    I've added more limitations on what creature types it can learn new abilities from, and at what levels, but also added a gp cost and a time limitation to learning the non-free (Ex) abilities.
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