Another Blackguard Question

[Dhavaer]

11 or more

A fallen paladin of this stature immediately gains a blackguard level for each level of paladin he trades in.

Does this mean the fallen paladin doesn't need to fulfil the pre-reqs to take levels in Blackguard, and can just trade levels in?

[Ninja Chocobo]

Doubt it, but it's not exactly hard to meet the pre-reqs.

[Lord Sidereal]

I just read that, and had the same thought. I reckon you don't have to fulfill prereqs

[Thomas]

That's clearly not the intent. IF you meet the pre-reqs and IF you take a level of Blackguard, you can trade in paladin levels.

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

Thomas is correct, nowhere does it say that you do not have to meet the prerequisites for becoming a Blackguard in the first place.

When you meet the prerequisites you can take your first level of Blackguard and then trade in your Paladin levels.

[AtomicKitKat]

Here's a thought. What if one did the Fiendish Codex 1 retraining trick currently popular on the Wizards board, to re-Feat a Blackguard who traded all 10 of his former Paladin levels for Blackguard, and removed his Cleave/Able Learner/Open Mind(which granted the bonus skill points or class-skillage)? Would he then become basically a Fighter with no bonus feats? :P

[Person_Man]

Here's a thought. What if one did the Fiendish Codex 1 retraining trick currently popular on the Wizards board, to re-Feat a Blackguard who traded all 10 of his former Paladin levels for Blackguard, and removed his Cleave/Able Learner/Open Mind(which granted the bonus skill points or class-skillage)? Would he then become basically a Fighter with no bonus feats? :P

You must have the pre-reqs of a prestige class to use its abilities. If you lose them for any reason, you lose the abilities.

[Dan_Hemmens]

I have to agree with most of the posters on this board. Which is a shame because the pre-reqs for Blackguard are ludicrous, and they make Fallen Paladins completely risible.

"Curse you! I have seen the injustice of the so-called Gods of Good! In the name of all that is unholy I pledge myself now forever to darkness! Umm ... once I've bought a few ranks of Hide, and once I go up a level ..."

[Person_Man]

I have to agree with most of the posters on this board. Which is a shame because the pre-reqs for Blackguard are ludicrous, and they make Fallen Paladins completely risible.

"Curse you! I have seen the injustice of the so-called Gods of Good! In the name of all that is unholy I pledge myself now forever to darkness! Umm ... once I've bought a few ranks of Hide, and once I go up a level ..."

Remember Rule 0. If the DM thinks its reasonable to do something, they can do it.

If a PC is playing a Paladin that has a legitimate fall from grace that leads to Evil/madness/betrayal/etc, and player wants to follow that line of roleplaying without completely nerfing their character build or preparing for their eventual downfall 6 levels before it occurs (I should take Improved Sunder - I might turn against everything I believe in some day), then the DM would be more then justified to wave the pre-reqs for that specific PC.

[Dan_Hemmens]

Remember Rule 0. If the DM thinks its reasonable to do something, they can do it.

If a PC is playing a Paladin that has a legitimate fall from grace that leads to Evil/madness/betrayal/etc, and player wants to follow that line of roleplaying without completely nerfing their character build or preparing for their eventual downfall 6 levels before it occurs (I should take Improved Sunder - I might turn against everything I believe in some day), then the DM would be more then justified to wave the pre-reqs for that specific PC.

That's D&D Rule 0.

I, however, follow Game Design Rule 0, which is "the fact that people can change a rule doesn't free you from the responsibility of having to get the rule right in the first place."

[Thomas]

I have to agree with most of the posters on this board. Which is a shame because the pre-reqs for Blackguard are ludicrous, and they make Fallen Paladins completely risible.

"Curse you! I have seen the injustice of the so-called Gods of Good! In the name of all that is unholy I pledge myself now forever to darkness! Umm ... once I've bought a few ranks of Hide, and once I go up a level ..."

I wouldn't take Blackguard levels for my fallen paladins anyway. It's a horrible PrC. Losing 5 levels' worth of paladin abilities (or two smite goods and +1d6 sneak attack) isn't that bad (nobody takes more than 5 levels of a class that bad, do they?). You just prestige into something suitable, if you really want to represent your fluff with mechanics. I'd just stick with something that suits multiple alignments and has pretty neutral fluff, like Pious Templar.

Personally, I'd let a character exchange all paladin levels for Paladin of Slaughter/Tyranny levels.

[cupkeyk]

How does the swapping function?

So an 11th level fallen paladin takes his first Level of blackguard is now ECL 12 (Fallen Paladin 11, Blackguard 1) but he can swap the levels out and comes out as a Fallen Paladin 2, BlackGuard 1.

Can the 2 Fallen Paladin levels be swapped off later for Epic Blackguard levels once He hits 21st level?

[Rigeld2]

You must have the pre-reqs of a prestige class to use its abilities. If you lose them for any reason, you lose the abilities.

False. Reference the Ur-Priest, an inifnite loop of losing its abilities and gaining them back, according to you.

Theres a rules reference somewhere, but I dont remember where.

[Thomas]

How does the swapping function?

So an 11th level fallen paladin takes his first Level of blackguard is now ECL 12 (Fallen Paladin 11, Blackguard 1) but he can swap the levels out and comes out as a Fallen Paladin 2, BlackGuard 1.

Can the 2 Fallen Paladin levels be swapped off later for Epic Blackguard levels once He hits 21st level?

Up to the DM, but I don't see why you'd be able to swap them later. It wouldn't really work.

Your example Paladin 11/Blackguard 1 could trade as many as 9 paladin levels away, becoming Paladin 2/Blackguard 10 (I think you typoed and missed the 0?). But then he'd only get the first extra ability, since he's only got 2 paladin levels. Allowing the levels to be exchanged later on wouldn't make any real sense.

[cupkeyk]

So he gets extra abilities Per fallen Paladin Level? Meh and okay.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

False. Reference the Ur-Priest, an inifnite loop of losing its abilities and gaining them back, according to you.

Theres a rules reference somewhere, but I dont remember where.

DMG, p. 176. Only mentions needing the prerequisites to gain the first level of the PrC. Beyond that, there is no other mention of having to meet prerequisites for any other portion of a PrC. Losing a prerequisite doesn't even appear to prevent you from gaining your second level or beyond.

Makes for an interesting "hack" if playing with Feat Retraining rules and you want to get into a PrC with an underpowered feat as a prerequisite.

[Thomas]

Makes for an interesting "hack" if playing with Feat Retraining rules and you want to get into a PrC with an underpowered feat as a prerequisite.

Any PrC with Alertness as a pre-req deserves to be hacked.

Lousy Nentyar Hunter...

[Shhalahr Windrider]

Any PrC with Alertness as a pre-req deserves to be hacked.

Hm, missed that one. I was thinking about Toughness, Combat Casting, Skill Focus, and Spell Focus (divination).

[Renegade Paladin]

Any PrC with Alertness as a pre-req deserves to be hacked.

Lousy Nentyar Hunter...

Have a problem with paying for your power there, son? Subpar prereq feats are a balancing factor. I suggest you learn to live with it.

[Mewtarthio]

I wouldn't take Blackguard levels for my fallen paladins anyway. It's a horrible PrC. Losing 5 levels' worth of paladin abilities (or two smite goods and +1d6 sneak attack) isn't that bad (nobody takes more than 5 levels of a class that bad, do they?). You just prestige into something suitable, if you really want to represent your fluff with mechanics. I'd just stick with something that suits multiple alignments and has pretty neutral fluff, like Pious Templar.

It's better than X level's worth of "fighter without bonus feats," which is what you'll get if you're able to exchange levels in the first place.