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  1. - Top - End - #1
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    Default Who judges the paladins?

    OotS #405, and previous episodes, made me wonder whether Miko would keep her paladin powers if she destroyed Shojo. For this post, the broader question is what happens if a paladin places principle above legitimate authority, such as gathering ample evidence that some legitimate rulers are, indeed, corrupt and evil and destroying them? What are the guidelines for declaring authority unfit to rule?

    The trouble is, the gods can rarely directly communicate with even their most trusted followers and communications with their church are far too slow. A holy warrior is a largely on his own and must rely on his own moral philosophy. Sooner or later, a genuinely good paladin will destroy an authority figure for good reason, refuse any power, fame or fortune and then lose his powers. Is there an appeals process? Do the gods listen to the moral arguments of their clerics and paladins?
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    Default Re: Who judges the paladins?

    The DM, obviously.

    And the Code is supposed to be a limiting factor. If you're a paladin and you don't want to accidentally fall, think first, then Smite. I think you can atone if you make a genuine mistake, though.

    In my games, at least, you wouldn't fall for overthrowing a legitimately evil authority figure. But, in the case of "I thought he was evil, but he wasn't", then the paladin deserves to fall for running around smiting first and asking questions later.
    Last edited by headwarpage; 2007-01-24 at 07:36 PM.
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    Default Re: Who judges the paladins?

    Quote Originally Posted by warmachine View Post
    OotS #405, and previous episodes, made me wonder whether Miko would keep her paladin powers if she destroyed Shojo. For this post, the broader question is what happens if a paladin places principle above legitimate authority, such as gathering ample evidence that some legitimate rulers are, indeed, corrupt and evil and destroying them? What are the guidelines for declaring authority unfit to rule?

    The trouble is, the gods can rarely directly communicate with even their most trusted followers and communications with their church are far too slow. A holy warrior is a largely on his own and must rely on his own moral philosophy. Sooner or later, a genuinely good paladin will destroy an authority figure for good reason, refuse any power, fame or fortune and then lose his powers. Is there an appeals process? Do the gods listen to the moral arguments of their clerics and paladins?
    Destroying a corrupt, wicked, but legitimate authority is pretty much the textbook definition of Chaotic Good. As such, it's out of line for a paladin. The paladin's options for remedy are limited to Lawful ones, which is as aspect of their code just as surely as the Good is. Honestly, Miko's position is pretty much exactly the sort of place that a samurai ought to start thinking about how sharp her wakizashi is, and what she should write for her final haiku...

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    Default Re: Who judges the paladins?

    It depends on setting--in Eberron, the Silver Flame church decides if you're holy or not, regardless of your true devotion to the flame.

    Other'n that, it does go by DM.
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    Default Re: Who judges the paladins?

    Who judges the paladins?
    The inevitables of course.


    But I personally don't think she will attack him just yet. She will most likely claim that defending against the extremely evil lich and hobgoblin army storming the gates is more important and more of an immediate threat than a corrupt politician. Unless of course, she thinks Hinjo or O-chul or any other paladin is more capable and replaces Shijo with them, which I doubt she would do considering her not speaking out against him when he was acting senile.
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    Default Re: Who judges the paladins?

    Their god. Thats who judges a paladin, not authority, not kings nor emperors. They do their gods will. Many a good paladin lost his powers follow his superior who had strayed from the path.
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    Default Re: Who judges the paladins?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shisumo View Post
    Destroying a corrupt, wicked, but legitimate authority is pretty much the textbook definition of Chaotic Good. As such, it's out of line for a paladin. The paladin's options for remedy are limited to Lawful ones, which is as aspect of their code just as surely as the Good is.
    Actually, I read an excerpt from the Book of Exalted Deeds that explained quite well and quite convincingly that a paladin's allegiance was first to good, second to law. I'm not sure if I can find and post that, though....

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    Default Re: Who judges the paladins?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shisumo View Post
    Destroying a corrupt, wicked, but legitimate authority is pretty much the textbook definition of Chaotic Good. As such, it's out of line for a paladin. The paladin's options for remedy are limited to Lawful ones, which is as aspect of their code just as surely as the Good is. Honestly, Miko's position is pretty much exactly the sort of place that a samurai ought to start thinking about how sharp her wakizashi is, and what she should write for her final haiku...
    ...I do hope this is satire.

    Paladins are Good first, and Lawful second.

    Note that, for example, if a paladin commits an Evil act, or consorts with Evil creatures, he falls. Instantly. The same cannot be said for Chaotic acts or creatures.
    Last edited by Yuki Akuma; 2007-01-24 at 08:02 PM.
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    Default Re: Who judges the paladins?

    "The DM does it" is only true on one level. While it's possible for the DM to rule on this directly ("I, by the powers vested in me by WotC, declare your paladin Fallen!"), it makes more sense for the DM to role-play the authority who makes this decision. So that does raise the question of who that authority should be. It could be the paladin's god, or the paladin's church, or possibly even the paladin's own conscience. Perhaps paladins get their powers from their faith in their own righteousness, and they fall from doubt...

    But I think it's best if the god decides. Role-playing the paladin's god also gives you a nice buffer against the heated arguments that might follow. Instead of a discussion about real-life ethics and how they might apply in D&D, you'd have a discussion about the god's nature and personality. And obviously the DM has final say on those. So instead of "I rule that what you did was evil", you have "I rule that your god no longer approves of you".

    (And, I should note, I don't mean "Have the god rubber-stamp the DM's decision". Gods are immensely powerful, but they still have personalities and goals, and so they can be role-played.)

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    Default Re: Who judges the paladins?

    [quote=Shisumo;1886735]Destroying a corrupt, wicked, but legitimate authority is pretty much the textbook definition of Chaotic Good.quote]

    Bold by me.

    Isn't integrity a primary component of legitimacy? A corrupt government is by nature illegitimate, assuming social contract. And without social contract, would the Paladin be governed by it at all?

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    Default Re: Who judges the paladins?

    Quote Originally Posted by flabbicus View Post
    The inevitables of course.


    But I personally don't think she will attack him just yet. She will most likely claim that defending against the extremely evil lich and hobgoblin army storming the gates is more important and more of an immediate threat than a corrupt politician. Unless of course, she thinks Hinjo or O-chul or any other paladin is more capable and replaces Shijo with them, which I doubt she would do considering her not speaking out against him when he was acting senile.
    I believe the plot progression is going to be, even if Miko doesn't do anything to Shijo, she will now have the "proof" that the OotS are evil, since she overheard the trial is a sham.
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    Default Re: Who judges the paladins?

    I like the idea of the DM deciding in the context of the Paladin's god's agenda. After all, the Paladin casts divine spells, smites, and summons his mighty steed because his patron god grants these to him.

    As for lawful alignment breaches, I usually prefer when I DM to let my Paladins be Neutral/Good. I would rather have them only wrestle with moral dilemma's than whether or not it's legal to enter the town sewer without a permit that has be presented in triplicate to the sub-lower-clerk of city waste management.

    (Though, my favorite Paladins have to be the Paladins of Slaughter.)

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    Default Re: Who judges the paladins?

    I like to think of the Paladins of Tyranny as Judge Dredds. Judge, jury, executioner, eater of your immortal soul.
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    Default Re: Who judges the paladins?

    I would think Heironeous, god of paladins, or whatever the god of paladins is in X campaign (Paladine/Fizban in Dragonlance, for instance), would be the ultimate authority on the paladin code in-game. Metagame, though, it's the DM.
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    Default Re: Who judges the paladins?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shisumo View Post
    Destroying a corrupt, wicked, but legitimate authority is pretty much the textbook definition of Chaotic Good. As such, it's out of line for a paladin. The paladin's options for remedy are limited to Lawful ones, which is as aspect of their code just as surely as the Good is. Honestly, Miko's position is pretty much exactly the sort of place that a samurai ought to start thinking about how sharp her wakizashi is, and what she should write for her final haiku...
    It can be argued that allowing a certainly evil and corrupt (or mad) person to remain in power is a dereliction of duty to decent people or the nation and abandonment of principles. Also, that the person has corrupted the law and the legitimate means of removing him is no excuse. One can have a duty to the nation, church and god as well as to the law. Such duties can conflict, such as stopping hostile nations acquiring powerful, magical items and leaders selling such items. If this happens, the paladin carefully gathers the facts, seeks trusted advice and judges in favour of the nation or church, can he say to his god "His law creates injustice, despair, poverty and all of the values you want stopped and I checked that it really was him. My duty to you dictates that I stop him!"
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    Default Re: Who judges the paladins?

    For me, the paladin's lawfulness has always been the law of his god, rather than those of men, so knocking off the evil ruler of a country to protect countless lives is at the top of the paladin to do list. After all, Heironius would do the same thing.

    I don't think that Shojo lying is enough to justify killing him, as he had best intentions at heart. As has been said, ask questions first, smite later.
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    Default Re: Who judges the paladins?

    when i have someone play a pally we talk about if something like this comes up, do they want to play law first type of pally, and get detect/smite chaos instead of evil, or stay as the book, and be a good first. they both still apply in all situations, but in a situation where its commit evil for the law or break a law for good, they have something to go on, but if its a major evil commited for a minor law, its still good bye powers.
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    Default Re: Who judges the paladins?

    Quote Originally Posted by Stormcrow View Post
    Many a good paladin lost his powers follow his superior who had strayed from the path.
    Bet you can't name 3.
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    Default Re: Who judges the paladins?

    Anyone who followed Arthas in Warcraft 3 :P
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    Default Re: Who judges the paladins?

    Quote Originally Posted by Stormcrow View Post
    Anyone who followed Arthas in Warcraft 3 :P
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    Default Re: Who judges the paladins?

    Quote Originally Posted by Yuki_Akuma View Post
    ...I do hope this is satire.

    Paladins are Good first, and Lawful second.

    Note that, for example, if a paladin commits an Evil act, or consorts with Evil creatures, he falls. Instantly. The same cannot be said for Chaotic acts or creatures.
    All true, but irrelevant. The paladin is both Good and Lawful. She cannot help anyone who will use her help for chaotic ends, even if those ends are good (also RAW). Relative weighting between the aspects of her alignment is beside the point here - she has to remain both.

    A paladin who discovers evil in the heart of a legitimate authority has exactly two options: 1) attempt to work within the framework of the law to expose the evil and allow the consequences of that evil to reap the legal punishment, or 2) withdraw from that authority and find another one that will authorize a more direct action. (Well, there's an option 3, which is suicide, but that's rare in PCs, especially outside L5R games, and an option 4, which is stop being a paladin, but that's really unexciting.)

    Seriously, this is the kind of dilemma that is the meat and drink of samurai drama - it's also around in places like modern legal fiction (anyone remember The Firm?) and superhero comics. The choices are pretty straightforward... what happens next depends mostly on the cleverness of the character and/or her player, but are definitely worth watching.

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    Default Re: Who judges the paladins?

    The text book course of action for a Paladin in Miko's situation would be to formally bring Shojo up on charges. If found guilty, Shojo would be removed from a position of power, and Hinjo would likely succede him (assuming he's next in the hereditary line). Then she would do the same to the Oots. It's perfectly Paladin safe.

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    Default Re: Who judges the paladins?

    Me.

    I judge them.

    Harshly.
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    Default Re: Who judges the paladins?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hallavast View Post
    The text book course of action for a Paladin in Miko's situation would be to formally bring Shojo up on charges. If found guilty, Shojo would be removed from a position of power, and Hinjo would likely succede him (assuming he's next in the hereditary line). Then she would do the same to the Oots. It's perfectly Paladin safe.
    :nod: Bingo.

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    Default Re: Who judges the paladins?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shisumo View Post
    All true, but irrelevant. The paladin is both Good and Lawful. She cannot help anyone who will use her help for chaotic ends, even if those ends are good (also RAW). Relative weighting between the aspects of her alignment is beside the point here - she has to remain both.
    Actually, a paladin just isn't required to help somebody who's going to use it for chaotic or evil ends, by a strict interpritation of RAW.
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    Default Re: Who judges the paladins?

    Okay, relevant excerpt from the Book of Exalted Deeds (It's an EXCERPT. Out of a BOOK. I'm not revealing mechanics or anything, people do this sort of thing with books all the time, and the rules don't seem to forbid it).

    However, if this is a problem, let me know and I'll certainly take it down.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Book of Exalted Deeds
    For better or for worse, a paladin is not just good: she is lawful good, sworn not just to uphold the principles of good but also bound by a code of conduct, and subject to local law as well. Many paladins are also members of a specific deity's church, a knightly order of some sort, or both. At the best of times, these various loyalties - her code of conduct, her church's laws, her order's demands, the laws of her nation, and the abstraction of her alignment - are all in harmony, and her path is clear before her. When circumstances are not so ideal, she finds herself torn between conflicting demands: her superior in her knightly order commands her to kill a brutal murderer who has escaped punishment in court on a legal technicality, for example. Her personal code requires that she punish those that harm innocents, and this killer certainly falls in that category. However, her personal code also instructs her to respect legitimate authority, which includes both her knightly superior and the local law that has let the killer go free. The demands of her good alignment suggest she should punish the wrongdoer, but the demands of her lawful alignment insist that she obey the judgment of the court. It is entirely possible that either her superior or the magistrate in the case is corrupt or even possessed. Whom does she obey? How does she sort out the conflicting demands of her loyalties?
    Here's the kicker:
    Quote Originally Posted by The Book of Exalted Deeds
    Paladins are by no means alone in this situation. Any character who tries consistently to do good eventually finds himself in a situation where different loyalties are in conflict. Chaotic good characters might care far less about a potentially corrupt or at least ineffectual court system, but they might have other personal standards or obligations that cause conflict in similar or different situations. In the end, however, many such conflicts boil down to a question of priorities, and for a character who aspires to exalted deeds, good is the highest priority. In the example above, the murderer must at least be captured, if not killed, before he can kill again. If she has reason to suspect corruption, either in the court or in her own order, the paladin must attempt to uncover it, though it might mean being cast out of her order, punished under local law, or both. Her paladinhood and her exalted status remain intact, since she acted in the cause of good even when that required questioning the legitimacy of authority. Magistrates or knightly superiors who serve the cause of evil while posing as agents of good are not legitimate authority, and the paladin is right for exposing their corruption.
    Read it. Seriously. It's quite relevant.
    Last edited by Shazzbaa; 2007-01-25 at 12:57 AM. Reason: paragraphs make me a happy fishy

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    Default Re: Who judges the paladins?

    Quote Originally Posted by Winged One View Post
    Actually, a paladin just isn't required to help somebody who's going to use it for chaotic or evil ends, by a strict interpritation of RAW.
    By the most literal interpretation, I suppose you're right. That's not how I read it, but it's not clear how much weight the "provided" is supposed to carry. Regardless, the rest of the post stands. Among other things, as directly relevant to this discussion, the phrase "respect legitimate authority" appears in the paladin's code, which pretty much rules out attempting to assassinate your duly appointed boss, no matter how evil he is.

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    Default Re: Who judges the paladins?

    One of my best rping experiences was smiting a king (but he was ask'in for it, read here ). The DM playing their god judges them according to their code and the deity's dogma.

    WWMD (What will Miko do?); I dunno. Many PC's would charge Shojo and two handed smite. Smart pally's would detect evil first, then try to arrest him. Brilliant PC's would seek the support of usually opposed community leaders -- say the church and merchant league -- in order to call for a vote of confidence.
    Last edited by Diggorian; 2007-01-25 at 01:03 AM.
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    Default Re: Who judges the paladins?

    And the smartest PC's of all instead blackmail him for a hefty bounty.
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    Default Re: Who judges the paladins?

    Quote Originally Posted by Viscount Einstrauss View Post
    And the smartest PC's of all instead blackmail him for a hefty bounty.
    If neutral, heck yeah!

    But I think we're talking pally, pally.
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