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Thread: Who judges the paladins?
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2007-01-24, 07:30 PM (ISO 8601)
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Who judges the paladins?
OotS #405, and previous episodes, made me wonder whether Miko would keep her paladin powers if she destroyed Shojo. For this post, the broader question is what happens if a paladin places principle above legitimate authority, such as gathering ample evidence that some legitimate rulers are, indeed, corrupt and evil and destroying them? What are the guidelines for declaring authority unfit to rule?
The trouble is, the gods can rarely directly communicate with even their most trusted followers and communications with their church are far too slow. A holy warrior is a largely on his own and must rely on his own moral philosophy. Sooner or later, a genuinely good paladin will destroy an authority figure for good reason, refuse any power, fame or fortune and then lose his powers. Is there an appeals process? Do the gods listen to the moral arguments of their clerics and paladins?Matthew Greet
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2007-01-24, 07:33 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Who judges the paladins?
The DM, obviously.
And the Code is supposed to be a limiting factor. If you're a paladin and you don't want to accidentally fall, think first, then Smite. I think you can atone if you make a genuine mistake, though.
In my games, at least, you wouldn't fall for overthrowing a legitimately evil authority figure. But, in the case of "I thought he was evil, but he wasn't", then the paladin deserves to fall for running around smiting first and asking questions later.Last edited by headwarpage; 2007-01-24 at 07:36 PM.
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2007-01-24, 07:34 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Who judges the paladins?
Destroying a corrupt, wicked, but legitimate authority is pretty much the textbook definition of Chaotic Good. As such, it's out of line for a paladin. The paladin's options for remedy are limited to Lawful ones, which is as aspect of their code just as surely as the Good is. Honestly, Miko's position is pretty much exactly the sort of place that a samurai ought to start thinking about how sharp her wakizashi is, and what she should write for her final haiku...
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2007-01-24, 07:38 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Who judges the paladins?
It depends on setting--in Eberron, the Silver Flame church decides if you're holy or not, regardless of your true devotion to the flame.
Other'n that, it does go by DM.Terrence Randall and the Kinslayer by NEO|Phyte
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2007-01-24, 07:53 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Who judges the paladins?
Who judges the paladins?
But I personally don't think she will attack him just yet. She will most likely claim that defending against the extremely evil lich and hobgoblin army storming the gates is more important and more of an immediate threat than a corrupt politician. Unless of course, she thinks Hinjo or O-chul or any other paladin is more capable and replaces Shijo with them, which I doubt she would do considering her not speaking out against him when he was acting senile.Groom to the Haberdasher's Daughter.
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2007-01-24, 07:54 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Who judges the paladins?
Their god. Thats who judges a paladin, not authority, not kings nor emperors. They do their gods will. Many a good paladin lost his powers follow his superior who had strayed from the path.
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2007-01-24, 07:55 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Who judges the paladins?
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2007-01-24, 07:59 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Who judges the paladins?
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2007-01-24, 08:10 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Who judges the paladins?
"The DM does it" is only true on one level. While it's possible for the DM to rule on this directly ("I, by the powers vested in me by WotC, declare your paladin Fallen!"), it makes more sense for the DM to role-play the authority who makes this decision. So that does raise the question of who that authority should be. It could be the paladin's god, or the paladin's church, or possibly even the paladin's own conscience. Perhaps paladins get their powers from their faith in their own righteousness, and they fall from doubt...
But I think it's best if the god decides. Role-playing the paladin's god also gives you a nice buffer against the heated arguments that might follow. Instead of a discussion about real-life ethics and how they might apply in D&D, you'd have a discussion about the god's nature and personality. And obviously the DM has final say on those. So instead of "I rule that what you did was evil", you have "I rule that your god no longer approves of you".
(And, I should note, I don't mean "Have the god rubber-stamp the DM's decision". Gods are immensely powerful, but they still have personalities and goals, and so they can be role-played.)
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2007-01-24, 08:10 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Who judges the paladins?
[quote=Shisumo;1886735]Destroying a corrupt, wicked, but legitimate authority is pretty much the textbook definition of Chaotic Good.quote]
Bold by me.
Isn't integrity a primary component of legitimacy? A corrupt government is by nature illegitimate, assuming social contract. And without social contract, would the Paladin be governed by it at all?
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2007-01-24, 08:36 PM (ISO 8601)
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2007-01-24, 08:37 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Who judges the paladins?
I like the idea of the DM deciding in the context of the Paladin's god's agenda. After all, the Paladin casts divine spells, smites, and summons his mighty steed because his patron god grants these to him.
As for lawful alignment breaches, I usually prefer when I DM to let my Paladins be Neutral/Good. I would rather have them only wrestle with moral dilemma's than whether or not it's legal to enter the town sewer without a permit that has be presented in triplicate to the sub-lower-clerk of city waste management.
(Though, my favorite Paladins have to be the Paladins of Slaughter.)
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2007-01-24, 08:49 PM (ISO 8601)
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2007-01-24, 08:51 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Who judges the paladins?
I would think Heironeous, god of paladins, or whatever the god of paladins is in X campaign (Paladine/Fizban in Dragonlance, for instance), would be the ultimate authority on the paladin code in-game. Metagame, though, it's the DM.
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2007-01-24, 08:52 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Who judges the paladins?
It can be argued that allowing a certainly evil and corrupt (or mad) person to remain in power is a dereliction of duty to decent people or the nation and abandonment of principles. Also, that the person has corrupted the law and the legitimate means of removing him is no excuse. One can have a duty to the nation, church and god as well as to the law. Such duties can conflict, such as stopping hostile nations acquiring powerful, magical items and leaders selling such items. If this happens, the paladin carefully gathers the facts, seeks trusted advice and judges in favour of the nation or church, can he say to his god "His law creates injustice, despair, poverty and all of the values you want stopped and I checked that it really was him. My duty to you dictates that I stop him!"
Matthew Greet
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2007-01-24, 08:54 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Who judges the paladins?
For me, the paladin's lawfulness has always been the law of his god, rather than those of men, so knocking off the evil ruler of a country to protect countless lives is at the top of the paladin to do list. After all, Heironius would do the same thing.
I don't think that Shojo lying is enough to justify killing him, as he had best intentions at heart. As has been said, ask questions first, smite later.---Spider Dave
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2007-01-24, 08:56 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Who judges the paladins?
when i have someone play a pally we talk about if something like this comes up, do they want to play law first type of pally, and get detect/smite chaos instead of evil, or stay as the book, and be a good first. they both still apply in all situations, but in a situation where its commit evil for the law or break a law for good, they have something to go on, but if its a major evil commited for a minor law, its still good bye powers.
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2007-01-24, 10:04 PM (ISO 8601)
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2007-01-24, 10:34 PM (ISO 8601)
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2007-01-24, 11:05 PM (ISO 8601)
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Terrence Randall and the Kinslayer by NEO|Phyte
Dencamp Bertrande takes a bow.
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Terrence Randall by The Stoney One
Rennac Belnades by Lord Iames.
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2007-01-24, 11:52 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Who judges the paladins?
All true, but irrelevant. The paladin is both Good and Lawful. She cannot help anyone who will use her help for chaotic ends, even if those ends are good (also RAW). Relative weighting between the aspects of her alignment is beside the point here - she has to remain both.
A paladin who discovers evil in the heart of a legitimate authority has exactly two options: 1) attempt to work within the framework of the law to expose the evil and allow the consequences of that evil to reap the legal punishment, or 2) withdraw from that authority and find another one that will authorize a more direct action. (Well, there's an option 3, which is suicide, but that's rare in PCs, especially outside L5R games, and an option 4, which is stop being a paladin, but that's really unexciting.)
Seriously, this is the kind of dilemma that is the meat and drink of samurai drama - it's also around in places like modern legal fiction (anyone remember The Firm?) and superhero comics. The choices are pretty straightforward... what happens next depends mostly on the cleverness of the character and/or her player, but are definitely worth watching.
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2007-01-25, 12:11 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Who judges the paladins?
The text book course of action for a Paladin in Miko's situation would be to formally bring Shojo up on charges. If found guilty, Shojo would be removed from a position of power, and Hinjo would likely succede him (assuming he's next in the hereditary line). Then she would do the same to the Oots. It's perfectly Paladin safe.
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2007-01-25, 12:18 AM (ISO 8601)
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2007-01-25, 12:19 AM (ISO 8601)
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2007-01-25, 12:39 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Who judges the paladins?
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2007-01-25, 12:55 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Who judges the paladins?
Okay, relevant excerpt from the Book of Exalted Deeds (It's an EXCERPT. Out of a BOOK. I'm not revealing mechanics or anything, people do this sort of thing with books all the time, and the rules don't seem to forbid it).
However, if this is a problem, let me know and I'll certainly take it down.
Originally Posted by The Book of Exalted Deeds
Originally Posted by The Book of Exalted DeedsLast edited by Shazzbaa; 2007-01-25 at 12:57 AM. Reason: paragraphs make me a happy fishy
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2007-01-25, 12:58 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Who judges the paladins?
By the most literal interpretation, I suppose you're right. That's not how I read it, but it's not clear how much weight the "provided" is supposed to carry. Regardless, the rest of the post stands. Among other things, as directly relevant to this discussion, the phrase "respect legitimate authority" appears in the paladin's code, which pretty much rules out attempting to assassinate your duly appointed boss, no matter how evil he is.
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2007-01-25, 01:00 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Who judges the paladins?
One of my best rping experiences was smiting a king (but he was ask'in for it, read here ). The DM playing their god judges them according to their code and the deity's dogma.
WWMD (What will Miko do?); I dunno. Many PC's would charge Shojo and two handed smite. Smart pally's would detect evil first, then try to arrest him. Brilliant PC's would seek the support of usually opposed community leaders -- say the church and merchant league -- in order to call for a vote of confidence.Last edited by Diggorian; 2007-01-25 at 01:03 AM.
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2007-01-25, 01:06 AM (ISO 8601)
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2007-01-25, 01:10 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Who judges the paladins?
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