Who judges the paladins?

[Nerd-o-rama]

That looked like Power Attack to me. And she kind of charged... while we're talking about crunch, maybe she's getting a little Shock Trooper action.

Deadly Shock Trooper action.

*cough*

Paladins... need nonpaladins to be monitored by. I actually liked the whole wizard-Batman thing mentioned earlier. I might have to steal that.

I was joking. Although that's a good excuse for me to bring in a Silver Pyromancer NPC in my Eberron campaign, accompanying some lowbie Paladins.

Then again, SP's are Evoker-focused, and Bat-Wizards usually ban Evoc...

Also, the one comment I plan on making with regard to Miko's slashy-slashy is that it represents why Paladins should not allow their own personal prejudices to get in the way. Even when you're following something that seems to be a "logical" conclusion to you, you can be wrong. Mortal, and all that.

[Matthew]

I never even thought about that before. That's really fantastic--as a DM, it could be a great way to slowly let a Paladin know that they've done something wrong. They start feeling afraid again.

I think Paladins still experience fear, they are just immune to the effects.

[headwarpage]

Well, how many HP does Shojo actually have? He's never been a warrior-type, so we have no reason to think he had any sort of Con bonus even when he was young, and he's taken a few aging penalties - at least -3, if not -6. Given that senility seemed entirely plausible to the people around him, he's probably venerable, so that's a -6 to Con, and a -3 HP/level hit. If he didn't have a Con bonus to begin with, his average HP at this point would be all of 21. With a full power attack (2-handed, you'll notice), Miko would knock him to -10 every time even if she didn't crit. Even without power attacking (and it really looks like she did), she'd have a shot at it.

Yes, there's a few assumptions in there, but as Rich has said, plot>rules. And if it only takes a few convenient (and entirely reasonable, imo) assumptions to make the plot work within the rules, that's even better.

[Viscount Einstrauss]

Plus, it sort of looked like a coup de grace. I'd say sitting in a chair unarmed with no intention of fighting back would qualify for helpless.

[Diggorian]

Judging by Rich's art in the last panel, Shojo has a rip in his torso box, not just the usual damage red-line characters get with survivable HP loss. I think he's a goner ('til those clerics come to raise him, I hate Resurrection for this reason -- robs killing of it's gravity). I like that literally and symbolically the throne has been sundered too.

I'm thinking a Paladin would feel their fall all at oncethough I've used piecemeal warnings before. A Paladin in my game, with holy symbol stamped on his mirror shiny plate and all, that played only by the letter of code and alignment. He was literally waiting until level 11 to become a Blackguard.

One day his armor lost it's luster, and just wouldnt shine any more. He couldnt figure why. Bought a whole new shiny suit, and gradually that one became dull too.

[ExHunterEmerald]

One day his armor lost it's luster, and just wouldnt shine any more. He couldnt figure why. Bought a whole new shiny suit, and gradually that one became dull too.

That's...a really, really good idea.
Mind if I gank that for my fallen-types?

Edit: Also, I personally like the idea that paladins experience fear, but they're immune to it. My Eberron Silver Flame pally is full of worry and doubt about himself and his church's methods--I'm going for the reformist instead of the "normal" Flame paladin. My best guess is he's going to get himself excommunicated when he finishes making a book, but his connection to the Silver Flame might stay. THAT'LL be awesome.

[Renegade Paladin]

Man, I hope someone takes Miko down a peg. With power-attack, if needbe.
At any rate, regarding the "completely legal" evil type, you CAN go in and waste them, but only if they're abusing their power. Someone who just happens to be evil that runs the show isn't a fair target.
If you can, delve into his history, learn about him, and bring him down for a past transgression.

If he isn't doing horrible things with his power, he wouldn't be evil in the first place.

[ExHunterEmerald]

If he isn't doing horrible things with his power, he wouldn't be evil in the first place.

I disagree. You can be plenty evil without ever taking action. It's not a measure of what you do (though they can certainly affect it), but it IS a measure of what you are.

[Diggorian]

That's...a really, really good idea.
Mind if I gank that for my fallen-types?

Sure, I'm done with it. But, I agree with Renegade, Shojo wasnt/isnt evil at all.

I believe evil is as evil does (judged by actions), but his intentions dont even seem evil. Lying to keep yourself alive and your kingdom free of corruption can be Neutral Good no problem.

[ExHunterEmerald]

I don't think Shojo is evil at all. ...or, was.

[TheOOB]

Meh, Miko is on the high road to becoming a blackguard, and she has been for a long time. She does a bit too much of the cold blooded killing and not enough of the compassion and mercy.

Contrary to popular belief, paladins, unlike clerics, are not judged by gods (at least not in the standard D&D setting). A paladin can worship a god, just like a cleric, but a paladin is in no way required to worship a god and there is no penalty to a paladins abilities if they anger their god, they only have a penalty if they either a)become an alignment other then lawful good, or b)break their code. Keep in mind that a Paladin must be lawful good in addition to following the paladin code, and that the paladin code doesn't neccesarly have anything to do with the alignments of law or good.

Also note that in D&D alignment is not reletive or subjective, it is, and only is, a definate quality someone has based on their actions that determines how magic effects them. If alignment was relitive and based on intent then you could declare yourself evil in response to an unholy blight spell and take no damage. I think most people agree that a good person gives of themself to help others, and an evil person hurts others for personal gain. Miko killed Shojo because it was easy, the option to have a trial and make sure Shojo gets what he deserved was available, and she probally has the influence to make it fair, but she didn't even attempt to wait and see if that was possible, instead she took the easy way out and killed a defenseless old man in cold blood because it was the quickest way to eliminate what she thought was evil.

For the record, if OotS was a campaign I was DMing, Miko would have lost her paladinhood the second she attacked the OotS unprovoked (an evil aura doesn't count, killing someone for that is like pulling someone over because their black).

[Diggorian]

For the record, if OotS was a campaign I was DMing, Miko would have lost her paladinhood the second she attacked the OotS unprovoked (an evil aura doesn't count, killing someone for that is like pulling someone over because their black).

Watch your implications there.

I agree that evil, like any alignment, is determined by action not intention. Because of this, I sanction paladin's dispensing justice to those evil they meet. Not necessary outright killing, but worthy of investigation. They wouldnt have the alignment if they hadnt behaved evily before and frequently.

If cops IRL could sense car thieves, and did, they'd have reason to run their plates. Sadly, not all black people are car thieves or criminals, and catching true criminals is harder.

[TheOOB]

Ahh, but the the term "evil" covers a lot of ground, not all of it entirely clear, and not all of it something that warrents death by katana. Is the school bully who steals lunch money from smaller kids evil? More then likely. Does he deserve to die? No.

Once you start killing/arresting people based on something such as detect evil rather then evidence you start heading into Minority Report territory.

[Diggorian]

Yeah Oob, that's why I say evil should be investigated by paladins two posts up. Cold-blooded pre-emptive killing is against the goodness of a paladin. Justice can be dispensed in many ways.

[clericwithnogod]

I nominate Belkar for Judge of the Paladins. He'd put an end to this goody-two-shoes stuff once and for all...

Blech, Paladins...effete snobs deserving the Kurgan treatment for such.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Effete? Bah. Part of what the class is about is wading into the fray with the nastiest nasties that Evil can come up with. Of course, there are many other aspects including diplomacy, protecting the innocent, and bringing the guilty to justice. But there's a reason Paladins are immune to fear-effects.

And snobs? Well, some. Paladins are more often than not noble, since the class is patterned after the knight-errant of medieval lore, and sometimes they let their status as chosen holy warriors go to their heads a bit. But many are simply humble servants of Lawful Goodness who want to do the best they can.

At least, of the ones I've played.

[Hallavast]

This is a key part of my question. The law can be perverted to create gross injustice, poverty and all the other values the paladin believes he must oppose. There can be a conflict between good and law but no way to legally fix the law.

Worse, though divine intervention is a higher authority, the gods can rarely get directly involved. The purpose of clerics and paladins is to wield divine power on the god's behalf. The paladin IS the divine intervention. Also, as gods can rarely convey their direct decisions, the cleric or paladin must make decisions on his behalf. The paladin IS the divine judgement. The god is only able to audit his agents, not command or direct them. The paladin stops the corrupt leader on his own initiative or it doesn't get done.

Can the paladin argue with his judge?

In short, yes. The paladin has a duty to uphold the spirit of the law to promote and maintain the common good. If a law is evil or unjust, it is the Paladin's job to abolish it or see to it that someone with authority can abolish it. A lawful good person does not support unjust or evil laws, they simply seek legal solutions to problems with the law first. In this case, changing the one in power will in practice change the law.

A paladin may very well be ignorant to his deity's wishes, but as long as he upholds the spirit of his code (which must have been made with good intentions by a god or church) with goodness in his heart, he will maintain his powers. Miko, however is blinded by an evil motive. Revenge. Furthermore, I'm sure she violated her code. If a paladin knowingly violates the code with evil in their heart, then that paladin knows their authority and power mean nothing. And so, they lose their powers. This is why Mace Windu fell. It relies on a theme that guilt is inherent in evil deeds.

[the_tick_rules]

when did mace windu fall? As for judging paladins, either their fellow paladins or themselves in terms of their code. but anyone can make personal judgements.

[Nerd-o-rama]

when did mace windu fall?

After getting his hands chopped off. A couple of hundred stories.

[knightsaline]

Who watches the watchmen? The other watchmen. Who watches those watchmen? The first group of watchmen. Who watches both gropus of watchmen as a precaution? The leader of the watch. have any of you read "THUD!" by terry pratchett or any of the other ankh morpork city watch books ? Vimes is constantly asked "who watches the watchmen?" to which he replies "we watch each other" when asked who watches him, he replies "I watch myself". My guess is that the paladins watch each other. should one of them break the code, the paladins council charges the accused of breaking the code and committing an evil act. if found guilty, the paladin has a few options.
a) he/she is stripped of his/her powers by the pallys council and sent by the council on a quest. if the accused succeeds on the quest, they receive atonement
b) same as above, but the council jails them
c) council strips the pally of their powers and they live their life as a fighter minus the bonus feats
d) the accused summons an evil outsider and swears to be an anti paladin
e) the pally finds the opposed order of his/her previous order (if pallys of freedom, tyranny and slaughter exist in that world)
f) pally council demands the former pally to kill themselves
g) pally council kills them via a twohanded longsword+ power attack
h) former pally asks to die a honourable death in battle. the pally dyes their hair red, shaves it into a mohawk, picks up a greataxe, strips off their armour and goes to slay the tarrasque alone.

personally, i favor (h) and (g), due to thier coolness. If the paladin order has been trying to "tame" the barbarians, the order might have an executioner named Bjorn Paladynslayr. i have to create a barbarian whose sole purpose in life is to kill paladins

[ExHunterEmerald]

After getting his hands chopped off. A couple of hundred stories.

BAHAHAHAHAHAAA!
...oh, I'm going to hell.

[Dervag]

Well, how many HP does Shojo actually have? He's never been a warrior-type, so we have no reason to think he had any sort of Con bonus even when he was young, and he's taken a few aging penalties - at least -3, if not -6. Given that senility seemed entirely plausible to the people around him, he's probably venerable, so that's a -6 to Con, and a -3 HP/level hit. If he didn't have a Con bonus to begin with, his average HP at this point would be all of 21. With a full power attack (2-handed, you'll notice), Miko would knock him to -10 every time even if she didn't crit. Even without power attacking (and it really looks like she did), she'd have a shot at it.

Well, Elan got impaled once when he was fighting Nale. He got knocked down to -7 HP or so, but he lived.

As a rule, I don't count characters as dead in this strip unless something important falls off or their eyes go all XX.

I don't know whether it would be better plotting if Shojo died here or not.

If he isn't doing horrible things with his power, he wouldn't be evil in the first place.

Cough*Vetinari*cough...
Seriously, a person may well be evil without being monstrous (in the moral sense). For instance, they might be ruthless bloody-minded bastard who'd stab you as soon as look at you, and still end up leading their country to greatness anyway.

Meh, Miko is on the high road to becoming a blackguard, and she has been for a long time. She does a bit too much of the cold blooded killing and not enough of the compassion and mercy.

I don't think she'd make a blackguard. She's not chaotic enough.

Of course, bisecting a head of state is a fairly chaotic act, now that you mention it...

Contrary to popular belief, paladins, unlike clerics, are not judged by gods (at least not in the standard D&D setting).

I've always believed that an oath or code can only be enforced by an intelligent being or force. Something judges the paladins, even if it isn't a god. The alternative makes little sense to me, and I prefer to let what I consider to be sense override the RAW.

For the record, if OotS was a campaign I was DMing, Miko would have lost her paladinhood the second she attacked the OotS unprovoked (an evil aura doesn't count, killing someone for that is like pulling someone over because their black).

Remember that Miko was actively pursuing the Order of the Stick to stand trial for 'crimes against reality'. They were already highly suspect in her eyes, and the people she encountered along the way would only have exaggerated her conviction that the Order was a threat.

When she encountered them (strips 199 and 200), she did call on them to surrender, and Roy refused. This suggested that Roy was the leader (which he was) and Roy did have a powerful aura of evil. So from Miko's perspective, the intensely evil leader of a band of dangerous criminals had just refused to surrender, which is a fairly textbook example of a case where a paladin might reasonably start attacking.

I don't think that paladins have to be stripped of their powers by some 'council', because no ordinary agency can give them their powers in the first place. The process of stripping away their power pretty much has to be supernatural.

[Khantalas]

I don't think she'd make a blackguard. She's not chaotic enough.

You do realize that you need be only evil to be a blackguard?

[Lapak]

That's...a really, really good idea.
Mind if I gank that for my fallen-types?

Edit: Also, I personally like the idea that paladins experience fear, but they're immune to it. My Eberron Silver Flame pally is full of worry and doubt about himself and his church's methods--I'm going for the reformist instead of the "normal" Flame paladin. My best guess is he's going to get himself excommunicated when he finishes making a book, but his connection to the Silver Flame might stay. THAT'LL be awesome.

I like both the armor and the fear. Though I haven't done gradual falls with paladins before, I rather like the idea of a progression combining these: their surface appearance starts to fade, with armor dulling and holy symbols fading away from whatever they're inscribed on. Then the falling paladin realizes that the great hand that held fear at a remote distance isn't there any more; that their muscles are turning to water and their heart is beating faster in the face of danger. THEN they lose the ability to channel their active powers.

What's best about it is that I can see this leading to either redemption and restoration or bitterness and a deeper, surer fall.

[Diggorian]

Sadly, we didnt finish the campaign because we wanted to return to another game. Then one of my players, whom is a much more experienced DM, started running another D&D campaign. So we just went with that.

The last plot developement was the introduction of an NPC that may have been his long-lost twin, a rogue with an uncertain alignment (not good). The pally never detected evil on him since he felt a bond to the guy despite the other PC's disliking him. If he didnt know he was evil he could associate with him.

The rogue was related to him, a disguised outsider meant to fulfill the Blackguard requirement. He'd often tempt him with leaving the party, a viable option my DM style allows.

"That monk girl is too naive to see the dark truths of the world, and the wizard wields you as a shield while he accumulates power for himself. They dislike me cause I tell you the truth, my brother." I played him like the player's other PCs in other games, which are anything but paladinish.

By the rules, pally's nor clerics require gods. To me though, that's ridiculous. I dont have deities or angels showing up to preach at them, but portray it like a detached mysterious benefator/parent.

[ExHunterEmerald]

HaHA! New revelations of the comic.
And let me just say I don't give a good god damn. That was a LONG time in coming. :D

[Renegade Paladin]

HaHA! New revelations of the comic.
And let me just say I don't give a good god damn. That was a LONG time in coming. :D

It had been coming since #406 and not a moment sooner. Now, I know the weekend seems like a long time when there's a cliffhanger like that, but let's keep some perspective here.

[ExHunterEmerald]

I've been waiting for her to fall since she went in swords (heh) akimbo on the gang. Good riddance to bad paladins.

[Renegade Paladin]

Okay, so she should have fallen for attacking the strongly evil leader of a group of criminals who had just refused to surrender? That's... fairly screwed up standards for falling you have there.

[Maxymiuk]

I've been waiting for her to fall since she went in swords (heh) akimbo on the gang. Good riddance to bad paladins.

You mean with the swords through her hips?

Akimbo


To get back on track, a paladin gets judged by his or her own deity. They're friggin' HOLY warriors after all - it would take a very aloof (or uncaring) god to hand out his powers left and right and then not check up on what his followers are doing with it.