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    Dwarf in the Playground
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    Default Why would somebody play an non-caster?

    I mean, casters are ridiculously broken and kick ass at anything, while mundanes got (almost) nothing that matches their power.

    So why would somebody play an fighter then, if it sucks beyond belief?*

    *I chose Fighter because while CW Samurai sucks more, nobody plays CW Samurai.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    MonkGuy

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    Default Re: Why would somebody play an non-caster?

    Because fun?

    Not all games are played at TO levels of optimization.

    I don't know about you but the idea of playing the same thing every game bores the hell outta me.

    So far in terms of fun my favorite characters have all been poor choices from TO standpoints. Sorcerer/Cleric Mystic Thurge, Weretiger to just hit things, and my Swifthunter.
    A man once asked me the difference between Ignorance and Apathy. I told him, "I don't know, and I don't care"

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    Default Re: Why would somebody play an non-caster?

    Quote Originally Posted by TypoNinja View Post
    Because fun?

    Not all games are played at TO levels of optimization.

    I don't know about you but the idea of playing the same thing every game bores the hell outta me.

    So far in terms of fun my favorite characters have all been poor choices from TO standpoints. Sorcerer/Cleric Mystic Thurge, Weretiger to just hit things, and my Swifthunter.
    Yeah, but if you dogmatically follow the tier system, magic has more options, and for me more options=more fun.

    I mean, why should I play a guy that hits real hard with a sword while I can be a wizard who summons elementals left and right, dominates the enemy, and so on?

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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    MonkGuy

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    Default Re: Why would somebody play an non-caster?

    Cause maybe I like the idea of a 600lb tiger napping in the rigging of a ship, who when rudely awoken makes a 50 foot leap to the deck of a ship trying to board us and ginsu's their helmsman upon landing.

    Would Disintegrating their boat be more effective? Probably, but not as much fun.
    A man once asked me the difference between Ignorance and Apathy. I told him, "I don't know, and I don't care"

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    AssassinGuy

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    Default Re: Why would somebody play an non-caster?

    Quote Originally Posted by roko10 View Post
    Yeah, but if you dogmatically follow the tier system, magic has more options, and for me more options=more fun.

    I mean, why should I play a guy that hits real hard with a sword while I can be a wizard who summons elementals left and right, dominates the enemy, and so on?
    Clearly you wouldn't. But not everyone is you. Some people like setting up tactical situations, having to improvise with their limited options rather than always having the right tool for the job. Some people like to base their characters on characters from tv shows, books, manga, or movies that they like, which might mean using an unoptimized class. Some people don't like summoning and dominating enemies because they want to play the person whose fighting, not the person whose having other people/entities fight for them.

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    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: Why would somebody play an non-caster?

    Quote Originally Posted by roko10 View Post
    Yeah, but if you dogmatically follow the tier system, magic has more options, and for me more options=more fun.
    There's your answer right there. Not everyone is you, and not everyone thinks the same as you, or even similarly as you. A lot of people might, sure, but not everyone.

    There isn't always a need to be the best at absolutely everything, so picking whatever is at the top of the tierlist isn't always the right answer.

    Quote Originally Posted by roko10 View Post
    I mean, why should I play a guy that hits real hard with a sword while I can be a wizard who summons elementals left and right, dominates the enemy, and so on?
    Because maybe some people -want- to play the guy that hits real hard with a sword, and doesn't -want- to play the guy that summons elementals left and right, dominates the enemy, and so on?

    It's a game. Unless you are getting real world compensation for it, your overall goal should be to have fun. If it is a competition of some kind, yeah, playing the strongest thing possible is probably your best bet, but for the (admittedly assumed) majority, we're playing a game to have fun. And some times the most simple option is also the most fun for us at the moment.

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    Pixie in the Playground
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    Default Re: Why would somebody play an non-caster?

    Because: Roleplay

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    Dwarf in the Playground
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    Default Re: Why would somebody play an non-caster?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tessman the 2nd View Post
    Because: Roleplay
    Stormwind Fallacy: Roleplayers are not automatically anti-minmaxing.

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    Mithril Leaf's Avatar

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    Default Re: Why would somebody play an non-caster?

    Because playing a caster is easy mode and I'm a bit masochistic?
    If you see me talking about Shaper Psions, assume that anything not poison immune within 100 feet will be dead.
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    I was going to PM you about it because I wanted to know, but then you posted it later. Elegant solution. Watch out for Necropolitans.
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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Why would somebody play an non-caster?

    From an emotional standpoint, it's because people sometimes want to pretend to be King Arthur rather than Merlin.

    From a logical standpoint, there's no real reason. The Fighter does not bring anything to a build that a Wizard could not do equally well.
    Really, the Fighter doesn't have any class features of note (Bonus Feats Are Not a Class Feature), so there's no particular reason to play a Fighter rather than just dip it for two levels. (Although Zhentarim and Dungeoncrasher make it semi-viable until level 10.)

    The Fighter in 3.5 is an awfully designed class by all measures. I'm pretty sure that the 3E Fighter is the worst Fighter in any edition of D&D, and that's including the 4E Essentials Fighters.

    Also the CW Samurai one specific fear build that is pretty neat, so I wouldn't call it completely unplayable. Just nearly.

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    MonkGuy

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    Default Re: Why would somebody play an non-caster?

    Quote Originally Posted by roko10 View Post
    Stormwind Fallacy: Roleplayers are not automatically anti-minmaxing.
    You are misusing the Fallacy. This isnt about Roll and Role play being mutually exclusive or not, what people are telling you is that its possible they want to roleplay something other than a batman wizard.

    Edit: also, you optimize for the game you are in, if your DM is running premade adventures out of a Dragon mag and you bring a TO build, its kind of a jerk move.
    Last edited by TypoNinja; 2014-02-02 at 03:51 AM.
    A man once asked me the difference between Ignorance and Apathy. I told him, "I don't know, and I don't care"

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    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: Why would somebody play an non-caster?

    Quote Originally Posted by roko10 View Post
    Stormwind Fallacy: Roleplayers are not automatically anti-minmaxing.
    What's the fallacy where A incorrectly ascribes a fallacy to B?

    Answer to the OP: because it's fun. Because I want to play something other than a caster. Because not everyone plays the sort of games where mundanes are completely overshadowed after a certain level.
    Not everyone looks at the mechanics and decides to run the most powerful thing because it's the most powerful.

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    Default Re: Why would somebody play an non-caster?

    Honestly, I don't get it, either. I could see playing something mundane in a non-D&D system, even if it's not my thing. I like magic. But in D&D? Mundanes are just so damn boring. Even things like rogues who have a few tricks just look pale and uninteresting. It's not a power thing, either. If I had the choice of playing a level 25 rogue or a level 1 caster with three banned schools in the same campaign, I'd choose the latter.
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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    MonkGuy

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    Default Re: Why would somebody play an non-caster?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldan View Post
    Honestly, I don't get it, either. I could see playing something mundane in a non-D&D system, even if it's not my thing. I like magic. But in D&D? Mundanes are just so damn boring. Even things like rogues who have a few tricks just look pale and uninteresting. It's not a power thing, either. If I had the choice of playing a level 25 rogue or a level 1 caster with three banned schools in the same campaign, I'd choose the latter.
    That's an odd choice considering your level 25 rogue has more magical potential in him than the caster does. UMD ftw.
    A man once asked me the difference between Ignorance and Apathy. I told him, "I don't know, and I don't care"

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    Mithril Leaf's Avatar

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    Default Re: Why would somebody play an non-caster?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldan View Post
    Honestly, I don't get it, either. I could see playing something mundane in a non-D&D system, even if it's not my thing. I like magic. But in D&D? Mundanes are just so damn boring. Even things like rogues who have a few tricks just look pale and uninteresting. It's not a power thing, either. If I had the choice of playing a level 25 rogue or a level 1 caster with three banned schools in the same campaign, I'd choose the latter.
    That's not quite fair, at low levels mundanes still get enough interesting things from the skill system and feats that casters don't completely wreck them.
    If you see me talking about Shaper Psions, assume that anything not poison immune within 100 feet will be dead.
    Quote Originally Posted by kardar233 View Post
    I was going to PM you about it because I wanted to know, but then you posted it later. Elegant solution. Watch out for Necropolitans.
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    AssassinGuy

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    Default Re: Why would somebody play an non-caster?

    Quote Originally Posted by roko10 View Post
    Stormwind Fallacy: Roleplayers are not automatically anti-minmaxing.
    He wasn't making that claim. He was saying that not everyone wants to roleplay as a wizard. Or a Druid or Cleric for that matter. Some people want to be the sneaky rogue, or the bold fighter, or the virtuous paladin, or the savage barbarian. Never playing anything except a Tier 1 caster limits the type of roleplay you can do. Which is not a problem if you always want to roleplay a wizard, but some people want to play the dummy whose reaction to problems is to yell "Me Smash Tiny Man!" and hit it with a piece of metal, preferably a greataxe, or a sneaky trickster who can get in and get out without anybody knowing he was there. And that becomes at the very least trickier to roleplay if you insist that you also have to be a caster.

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    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: Why would somebody play an non-caster?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tommy2255 View Post
    He wasn't making that claim. He was saying that not everyone wants to roleplay as a wizard. Or a Druid or Cleric for that matter. Some people want to be the sneaky rogue, or the bold fighter, or the virtuous paladin, or the savage barbarian. Never playing anything except a Tier 1 caster limits the type of roleplay you can do. Which is not a problem if you always want to roleplay a wizard, but some people want to play the dummy whose reaction to problems is to yell "Me Smash Tiny Man!" and hit it with a piece of metal, preferably a greataxe, or a sneaky trickster who can get in and get out without anybody knowing he was there. And that becomes at the very least trickier to roleplay if you insist that you also have to be a caster.
    There was a quote in someone's signature that was something like that.

    Playing to the Tiers is like eating: Sure, you could always go out for fine dining every night, but some times you just want to have some sushi or a cheese burger, and there's nothing wrong with that.

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    Default Re: Why would somebody play an non-caster?

    this is one of those trollbait threads again, innit?
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    Anytime someone mentions "strawman" or "stormwind" take a drink.

    For next level difficulty, also take a drink when someone mentions "fallacy" or "logic."


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    Dwarf in the Playground
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    Default Re: Why would somebody play an non-caster?

    Quote Originally Posted by EugeneVoid View Post
    this is one of those trollbait threads again, innit?
    Yes. Yes it is.

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    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: Why would somebody play an non-caster?

    Have you ever noticed how different mechanics feel different? The difference in the texture of the mechanics between casters and non-casters is noticeable enough that some have developed preferences towards one texture or the other.


    Personally I greatly prefer the feel of abilities with unlimited uses over abilities with limited uses. This encourages me to play non casters despite being a lower tier.

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    Kobold

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    Default Re: Why would somebody play an non-caster?

    Because my rogue can create an Anti Magic Dome with the right items, and then he will go omnomnom on the pretty little wizard?

    And considering I can use the scroll from stealth, I can keep a wizard from even knowing it's going to happen until it's too late.
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    DrowGirl

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    Default Re: Why would somebody play an non-caster?

    Eventually Casters do just win at D&D. BUt most campaigns in my experience end before they get to that point. For most of D&D, the best casters play GOD as described by Teantmonk's Guide. The thing about the GOD wizard, is that it is pure support. You buff your allies, debuff your enemies, manipulate the battlefield.... but ultimately it is the rest of the party that still does most of the real action in combat.

    Unless you cheese the heck out of Polymorph or a few other key spells and make yourself a combat monster, you really should'nt be overshadowing the party in combat. If you are doing so, slap yourself for making the game less fun for the rest of the party in most cases. YOu could go CoDzilla, and Druids almost have to be careful not to become combat machines by accident.... but as long as the casters tacitely agree to primarily play a support role or a clasic blaster and not try to find ways to bend the spirit of the game to be a better fighter then the fighters - the game is perfectly fun for the mundanes as well as the casters.

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    Default Re: Why would somebody play an non-caster?

    I feel like you've missed the point of DnD which is for everyone to have fun, not just your fun. Sure, your wizard is a great encounter obliterating powerhouse but maybe my samurai comes from a broken home and is out to redeem his family's honor through pain and strife and bad mechanics.

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    Default Re: Why would somebody play an non-caster?

    If you want to read 28 pages on the same topic, you will find a long thread here I made a while ago, asking the same question.
    Last edited by Norin; 2014-02-02 at 05:27 AM.
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    JW86's Avatar

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    Default Re: Why would somebody play an non-caster?

    It depends on how you play the game.

    If I were playing to win, I'd go with a caster or gish.

    If I was playing because, as a role playing game, I wanted to play the role of a sneaky dude, or a rough-cut mercenary, or an ex-member of the city guard, and go on an adventure of intrigue and discovery and yes, fighting a few orcs along the way, I might choose a Rogue or Fighter. Because that would be interesting and fun for me.

    Besides, melee guys can be cool and tough too. I'm kind of in love with the Swordsage at the moment.
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    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: Why would somebody play an non-caster?

    Far less options, and far less chances to misuse them = far easier to play.
    You also don't need to have insane precognition abilities when choosing what spells to learn or memorise each day.
    You can also don't worry that much about your character creation - getting a Level Adjustment or subpar class level is nowhere near as bad for non-caster as for casters that really hurt with each level that don't advance their spellcasting abilities.

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    Default Re: Why would somebody play an non-caster?

    I like the fluff. Anyone could save the world as a flame and magic wielding high sorcerer of greatitude! It takes a real hero to save the world only with a big sharp piece of metal and her own wits. Also usually the wizards of settings are portrayed as high level overminds while heroes are your average joe.
    Last edited by Sporeegg; 2014-02-02 at 06:29 AM.
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    BlueKnightGuy

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    Default Re: Why would somebody play an non-caster?

    Mundanes are fun to play and contribute to the group well enough at least at the low levels.
    Problems arise also at the low levels, though, when DMs allows things like abrupt jaunt, uber animal companions, divine metamagic / persistent spell, heart of water etc.

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    Default Re: Why would somebody play an non-caster?

    Quote Originally Posted by JW86 View Post
    Besides, melee guys can be cool and tough too. I'm kind of in love with the Swordsage at the moment.
    I was wondering when someone would bring up Tome of Battle. Gahd, I love that stuff. Half-giant Warblade who's managed to get Deep Impact and combine it with Diamond Nightmare Blade is just so satisfying.
    Last edited by Manly Man; 2014-02-02 at 06:50 AM.

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    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: Why would somebody play an non-caster?

    There's also the fact that Fighters, Barbarians, and other melee classes are simpler. Sure, Wizards and Clerics can always have the right tool for a job...if you have several years of experience backing you so that you can be genre-savvy enough to know what toolkit to bring. If you don't, then you're likely to either prepare the wrong spell and feel useless. And you don't even have the hammer that melee classes do, so not everything looks like a nail.

    And there's always gonna be some newbie at the table who takes one look at wizards, realizes that half the PHB is devoted to spellcasting, and just goes 'I think I'll play a Barbarian instead. That seems easier.'

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