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  1. - Top - End - #91
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    Default Re: Why would somebody play an non-caster?

    All of this matters little in the end. The fighting man will shrug, and roll up a new one in minutes. It's only the player enjoyment that matters after all.

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    Default Re: Why would somebody play an non-caster?

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  3. - Top - End - #93
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    Default Re: Why would somebody play an non-caster?

    So half of the posters say that it's because casters are "easy mode".

    However, mundanes even suck atbeing a challange, since you only need an horridly built wizard(barr Conjuration, anybody?) to create a liability,

  4. - Top - End - #94
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    Default Re: Why would somebody play an non-caster?

    Quote Originally Posted by roko10 View Post
    However, mundanes even suck atbeing a challange, since you only need an horridly built wizard(barr Conjuration, anybody?) to create a liability,
    I seem to recall a quote about how casters beat martials at everything, including sucking.

    Something about how fighters can just stab themselves while wizards can banish themselves directly to the 9th layer of Hell.

  5. - Top - End - #95
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    Default Re: Why would somebody play an non-caster?

    Quote Originally Posted by roko10 View Post
    So half of the posters say that it's because casters are "easy mode".

    However, mundanes even suck atbeing a challange, since you only need an horridly built wizard(barr Conjuration, anybody?) to create a liability,
    Err, I think most agree that the main reason people choose to play a non-caster is because they want, as in that is their wish and a source of enjoyment.
    Last edited by Gwendol; 2014-02-03 at 02:18 PM.

  6. - Top - End - #96
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    Default Re: Why would somebody play an non-caster?

    For my part, it's because the inherent limitations in being a mundane or a gish as opposed to a straight caster make working out builds more interesting. Building a caster is like filling in a blank sudoku grid.
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    MonkGuy

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    Default Re: Why would somebody play an non-caster?

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post

    Possibly. I know people who can literally eat the same meal for days on end without getting tired of it.
    There are people that have, for example, eaten the same thing for breakfast for decades.


    I'll just point out the other problem with the ''so many options they are so awesome'' casters: They can do too much. And not everyone can handle that much. So when some demons attack the player gets overwhelmed by the options. Of course, it works best in games with time limits on actions. Where a player has a set amount of time to take their turn or loose it. Even better if you count ''no time'' things in the game against the real time limit...like knowledge checks. Player: "I see demons, roll knowledge, DM tell me all about demons''. DM tells player about demons for 30 seconds and then says ''Sorry your time is up, you stand there for the round, next player go."


    Though common sense rulings, not doing the rule worship, and other such things really make casters not so awesome. So if you play in a game like that, mundanes are fun.

  8. - Top - End - #98
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    GnomeWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Why would somebody play an non-caster?

    Quote Originally Posted by jedipotter View Post
    Though common sense rulings, not doing the rule worship, and other such things really make casters not so awesome. So if you play in a game like that, mundanes are fun.
    Mundanes are fun regardless, if that's what the player wants to do. Even in a high op game, there's something satisfying about landing a twisted charge on an opponent for over 1,000 damage and making them pop like a balloon.

    If nothing else, mundanes can achieve big numbers. A lot of players like big numbers.

  9. - Top - End - #99
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    Default Re: Why would somebody play an non-caster?

    Quote Originally Posted by jedipotter View Post
    Though common sense rulings, not doing the rule worship, and other such things really make casters not so awesome. So if you play in a game like that, mundanes are fun.
    I don't really know what you mean by "common sense rulings". Is that like outright house rules? Cause a lot of the best stuff that casters do is incredibly within the rules, to the point where there is no interpretation required.

  10. - Top - End - #100
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    Default Re: Why would somebody play an non-caster?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kudaku View Post
    I seem to recall a quote about how casters beat martials at everything, including sucking.

    Something about how fighters can just stab themselves while wizards can banish themselves directly to the 9th layer of Hell.
    It's in Flickerdarts Sig and it's a quote from JaronK.
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  11. - Top - End - #101
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    MonkGuy

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    Default Re: Why would somebody play an non-caster?

    Quote Originally Posted by eggynack View Post
    I don't really know what you mean by "common sense rulings". Is that like outright house rules? Cause a lot of the best stuff that casters do is incredibly within the rules, to the point where there is no interpretation required.
    It depends on your interpretation, of course.

    Well, common sense would tell me the Solars would make a defense against Gate abuse and/or come after any mortal that used it on one of them. But the player of a caster would say ''the rules don't say that happens, so it does not happen.''

    Though there are lots of wrong interpretations out there....like the idea that a creature can voluntarily drop it's immunities.

  12. - Top - End - #102
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    Default Re: Why would somebody play an non-caster?

    Quote Originally Posted by jedipotter View Post
    It depends on your interpretation, of course.

    Well, common sense would tell me the Solars would make a defense against Gate abuse and/or come after any mortal that used it on one of them. But the player of a caster would say ''the rules don't say that happens, so it does not happen.''

    Though there are lots of wrong interpretations out there....like the idea that a creature can voluntarily drop it's immunities.
    I've seen the argument there, and I tend to disagree with it, but that's irrelevant. Gating solars can hang out in the corner while the wizard, perfectly within RAW, can alter self and polymorph into a ton of different things, shoot a solid fog that ends an encounter, hit golems within AMF's with a ball of fire, and do a million other things that break the game utterly. Druids are even better at this kinda thing, because most of their great stuff reads like PO, with spells like entangle, control winds, and venomfire, all doing exactly what they say. You can come up with some sort of argument for some things, maybe even some things I've listed, but there's always going to be a core of utterly ridiculous things that you have absolutely no counter-argument for, and that will be more than enough to wreck things.

  13. - Top - End - #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oko and Qailee View Post
    It's in Flickerdarts Sig and it's a quote from JaronK.
    Thanks

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    Quote Originally Posted by eggynack View Post
    I don't really know what you mean by "common sense rulings". Is that like outright house rules? Cause a lot of the best stuff that casters do is incredibly within the rules, to the point where there is no interpretation required.
    I find that the term "house rules" is often bandied about here with disdain, as though tweaking such a complex and fragile system to not be so fragile is the worst kind of sinful/shameful act a DM can commit. And yet I would wager the majority of DMs use at least a few, while the ones that claim not to instead have some form of gentleman's agreement in place instead. Even Tippy uses at least the latter.

    So yeah, I'm proud to say that our games have houserules, and we think nothing of it. Both the DMG and CRB actively encourage it, after all (the latter, a bit more explicitly.)
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  15. - Top - End - #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    I find that the term "house rules" is often bandied about here with disdain, as though tweaking such a complex and fragile system to not be so fragile is the worst kind of sinful/shameful act a DM can commit. And yet I would wager the majority of DMs use at least a few, while the ones that claim not to instead have some form of gentleman's agreement in place instead. Even Tippy uses at least the latter.

    So yeah, I'm proud to say that our games have houserules, and we think nothing of it. Both the DMG and CRB actively encourage it, after all (the latter, a bit more explicitly.)
    Sure, house rules are fine. Just clarifying what we're talking about here. House rules are mostly only problematic when they come up in optimization-talk, and when they are bad.

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    Default Re: Why would somebody play an non-caster?

    Quote Originally Posted by roko10 View Post
    So half of the posters say that it's because casters are "easy mode".

    However, mundanes even suck at being a challange, since you only need an horridly built wizard (ban Conjuration, anybody?) to create a liability,
    Spoiler: Tangent: Horribly built wizards
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    A horribly built wizard is still something that's difficult to do on accident. And no, banning conjuration does not make a wizard into a liability. They still have access to divination (and the spontaneous divination ACF), enchantment, illusion, necromancy and transmutation. There are plenty of spells in every other school to still allow the wizard to reign nigh-supreme near the top of the food chain (obviously not THE top, since THE top is occupied by a conjurer ).


    Have you actually played a high level (12+) wizard? For some people, the bookkeeping is too much - having to rewrite your prepped spell list every D&D morning can become a huge hassle, especially when you're picking spells that are spread across four books because half of them weren't printed in Spell Compendium. For others, most notably those with mastery of the system, the ability to end every encounter with one or two spells can be a drag. Defeating everything your DM throws at you in one round may be fun for you, but look at the other players (including the DM!). If they never get a chance to do anything but narrate how their characters shuffle about uncomfortably while you get your thing on, then they're probably not having fun. D&D is not about just you - it is about everyone at the table (including the DM!) - and every table is different. Some people want to play Lancelot, not Merlin, etc.
    Last edited by Derjuin; 2014-02-03 at 03:49 PM.
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  17. - Top - End - #107
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    Default Re: Why would somebody play an non-caster?

    Kind of seconding everyone, their mother and the kitchen sink on the "Because I'm not in it to win, I'm in it for the fun/RP." Even as someone drawn to the magic class of every game he plays (Psychic, Warmage, Mage, etc.), I don't really like the amount of prep that the DnD prepared casting classes require. I'll play a sorcerer and still be effective by being a good generalist (or maybe thematic if being a sorcerer is a plot point). I'll play a Warmage and be great at throwing around damage right away with no forethought because that's the character. I remember playing a Mage during several runs in DA. Most effective one was a brutal debuffing, healing machine. However, I still needed the tanks to do damage while I ran away if things got ugly. It was fun, but I wasn't the only character on my team. Sometimes I want to play the guy who the Wizard is buffing instead.

    Plus, as one of my friends put it: "I play a Crusader because at the lower levels, your prepared caster runs out of spells rather quickly, while I can keep smacking and recovering all day long." Especially to newer players, looking at a Wizard or a Sorcerer and seeing that they get, what, 4-6 spells a day at level 1, plus a small d4 hit dice (not an argument against a cleric, obviously), it's not encouraging to play at low levels, which some people forget is still played.
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  18. - Top - End - #108
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    Default Re: Why would somebody play an non-caster?

    Part of why I choose mundanes as opposed to casters is, as others have said, because I personally find it to be more fun/flavorful to fight creatures with a hunk of metal than slinging spells. Sure, a wizard could mimic a fighter very closely and exceed one in fighting ability with the right buffs, but that just doesn't have the feel/flavor I'm going for.

    The other reason I choose mundanes is that they can do their thing at will. Swinging a sword can be done every round for a very long time. You might lose some hp, but that's also pretty renewable (fast healing, etc). Whenever I've played a wizard/other caster in a campaign, they've run out of spells very quickly, and my dms don't usually let us do "well, it's been 5 minutes and all your spells are gone, time to rest for 8 hours". (This is why I really want to play a warlock at some point- at will abilities and a decent amount of options? heck yeah).

    Different strokes for different people, I guess.
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    Default Re: Why would somebody play an non-caster?

    Quote Originally Posted by roko10 View Post
    So half of the posters say that it's because casters are "easy mode".

    However, mundanes even suck atbeing a challange, since you only need an horridly built wizard(barr Conjuration, anybody?) to create a liability,
    No offense but is my impression that you are solely on this thread (and by extension the reason you created it) to throw in some exeggarated view of stereotypical munchkins, spike it with one or two stock phrases like Stormwind Fallacy and just watch how many people take the bait in any way inaccurate...?
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    Default Re: Why would somebody play an non-caster?

    Quote Originally Posted by Derjuin View Post
    Spoiler: Tangent: Horribly built wizards
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    A horribly built wizard is still something that's difficult to do on accident. And no, banning conjuration does not make a wizard into a liability. They still have access to divination (and the spontaneous divination ACF), enchantment, illusion, necromancy and transmutation. There are plenty of spells in every other school to still allow the wizard to reign nigh-supreme near the top of the food chain (obviously not THE top, since THE top is occupied by a conjurer ).


    Have you actually played a high level (12+) wizard? For some people, the bookkeeping is too much - having to rewrite your prepped spell list every D&D morning can become a huge hassle, especially when you're picking spells that are spread across four books because half of them weren't printed in Spell Compendium. For others, most notably those with mastery of the system, the ability to end every encounter with one or two spells can be a drag. Defeating everything your DM throws at you in one round may be fun for you, but look at the other players (including the DM!). If they never get a chance to do anything but narrate how their characters shuffle about uncomfortably while you get your thing on, then they're probably not having fun. D&D is not about just you - it is about everyone at the table (including the DM!) - and every table is different. Some people want to play Lancelot, not Merlin, etc.
    While I haven't played a high level wizard, I have played a high level druid. And there are two points here I strongly disagree on.

    1) At least in the case of druids, I found that if I was changing my spell list, I was only making minor changes. This may be more because the druid can spontaneously summon, so I may be willing to accept that wizards need to change out more.

    2) Yeah, encounter-ending spells. I'll agree to this. Although if the DM throws things which can dispel or the like, this isn't as much of a point.

    3) I get wanting to play a warrior, not a wizard. The thing I don't get is that there are ways to play a warrior where you have options. Playing a fighter/barbarian/whatever in combat means "I full attack. Then, I full attack. Oh, he moved away? I charge/move and attack." In comparison, gishes and ToB have options. Don't want a magical fighter, go look up ToB and play a warblade.

  21. - Top - End - #111
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    Default Re: Why would somebody play an non-caster?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Azkur View Post
    Replicate this moment as a Wizard and I might consider playing one:
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    Well, judging by how badly they're holding those swords, they probably are poor BaB. So both might be wizards?
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    Default Re: Why would somebody play an non-caster?

    Quote Originally Posted by HammeredWharf View Post
    Looks like my answer is a bit unusual, but here goes: because I like optimization. As a wizard, winning at D&D is way too easy. You win when you pick wizard as your class and get >16 intelligence. Most casters are similarly boring. As a mundane character, however, you have to carefully pick your abilities and actually put effort into your build. That's more interesting.
    I kinda take issue with this. A lot of people claim that playing as a caster is playing on "easy mode" but that's a matter of poor DM'ing.

    Running a game to challenge casters is certainly a more complex prospect than doing the same for non-casters but it's eminently doable. Spells and spellcasters have limits and failing to account for these is not the fault of the person who built the caster.
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    Default Re: Why would somebody play an non-caster?

    Well, have you ever fought against someone that abuses attacks of opportunity?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    I find that the term "house rules" is often bandied about here with disdain, as though tweaking such a complex and fragile system to not be so fragile is the worst kind of sinful/shameful act a DM can commit. And yet I would wager the majority of DMs use at least a few, while the ones that claim not to instead have some form of gentleman's agreement in place instead. Even Tippy uses at least the latter.
    There are at least two different forms of houserules. One is the basic "RAW is literally not functioning here and absolutely must be fixed to make the game run", and another is "RAW works OK but we don't like its implications". (A third might be "RAW is perfectly fine but lacks some implications and complications we want to introduce".) The first of these is, of course, present in all practical games. The second is reasonably common, but can go wrong rather more easily, either because the implications of the RAW way are actually more sensible than the alternative dreamed up, or because the houserule does not function as intended. The third has the further problem of being unnecessary and often deleterious, like the addition of critical fumble rules.
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    Default Re: Why would somebody play an non-caster?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldest View Post
    Well, judging by how badly they're holding those swords, they probably are poor BaB. So both might be wizards?
    Touché, friend.

    But while I admit that the bend of one's foil at the contact of another's shirt is a glorious moment, it rarely is found as EPIC as a confrontation of poorly-sword-holding fictional knights at the top of a cliff with lens flare and catchy aura effects, so I was forced to pick imagery based around this latter case.
    Last edited by Dr. Azkur; 2014-02-04 at 01:29 AM.
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    Default Re: Why would somebody play an non-caster?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Azkur View Post
    But while I admit that the bend of one's foil at the contact of another's shirt is a glorious moment, it rarely is found as EPIC as a confrontation of poorly-sword-holding fictional knights at the top of a cliff with lens flare and catchy aura effects, so I was forced to pick imagery based around this latter case.
    You just had to bring up fencing. Now I'm stuck imagining what happens when those things have gone through too much stress and snap instead of bending.
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    Default Re: Why would somebody play an non-caster?

    Quote Originally Posted by Coidzor View Post
    You just had to bring up fencing. Now I'm stuck imagining what happens when those things have gone through too much stress and snap instead of bending.
    Well I'm a fencer, and it's one of my passions so yes, I do have to bring it up.

    And it's actually quite hard for a foil to break (or an épée or a sabre for that matter) if you are using it correctly (and If you're not using it correctly then I don't know what you're doing up there, get down from the stage and get it together). I've seen two foils snap in a decade of fencing, both were during practice, the first was a kid who was unexperienced and was oblivious that if the blade is bending down then you're doing it wrong, and kept doing it until the obvious happened.
    The second perpetration of the hideous act was an accident, and it happened to me, I was practicing lunges against a rubberlike wall with new shoes (which were unhealthily slippery) when I twisted my ankle and went way too forward with the blade unaimed and again, the foil bent downwards.

    So yeah, it doesn't happen often, and it's only when the blade bends downwards instead of up (look up a video, the arc is always up).
    Last edited by Dr. Azkur; 2014-02-04 at 02:39 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by chaos_redefined View Post
    3) I get wanting to play a warrior, not a wizard. The thing I don't get is that there are ways to play a warrior where you have options. Playing a fighter/barbarian/whatever in combat means "I full attack. Then, I full attack. Oh, he moved away? I charge/move and attack." In comparison, gishes and ToB have options. Don't want a magical fighter, go look up ToB and play a warblade.
    Which is exactly why you don't play a straight up fighter. Instead, you use fighter in combination with other base classes to get into martial PrCs which have some actual special abilities, and in combination with a race that has its own special abilities, to create a character that has a lot of options while still being exclusively or almost exclusively mundane.

    A human straight up fighter is obviously boring. A half-red dragon troll fighter/frenzied berserker not so much...
    Last edited by Pan151; 2014-02-04 at 02:46 AM.

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    Default Re: Why would somebody play an non-caster?

    Quote Originally Posted by roko10 View Post
    So why would somebody play an fighter then, if it sucks beyond belief?*

    *I chose Fighter because while CW Samurai sucks more, nobody plays CW Samurai.
    I prefer Warblade, so this part is irrelevant.

    As for non-casters in general, without reading the rest of the thread (because I've never seen one of these go past page two without devolving into tangentially-related arguments), the answer is: 'Cuz I feel like it.
    Revan avatar by kaptainkrutch.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cirrylius View Post
    That's how wizards beta test their new animals. If it survives Australia, it's a go. Which in hindsight explains a LOT about Australia.

  30. - Top - End - #120
    Orc in the Playground
     
    Isamu Dyson's Avatar

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    Default Re: Why would somebody play an non-caster?

    There seems to be a weird subtle dichotomy growing in this thread: "Mundane classes are fun/magical classes are boring.".

    I suppose it is impossible to play a boring Fighter or fun Cleric...right ?
    Last edited by Isamu Dyson; 2014-02-04 at 03:37 AM.
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