New OOTS products from CafePress
New OOTS t-shirts, ornaments, mugs, bags, and more
Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast
Results 31 to 60 of 67
  1. - Top - End - #31
    Orc in the Playground
     
    MindFlayer

    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Location
    Washington State, USA
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Giants and Graveyards: Grod's collected 3.5 revisions

    i understand the need for such a change, but you have practically made the options bland and non thinking it through player friendly, such in that there are now very few utility spells or actions that allow for custom responses to a situation... i meant great job, but ouch, so much gone, why cant we balance to the highest denominator for once, not "pull a 'merica" and "leave no dumb-ass behind"?
    Reality is my clay, Imagination my tools.

    Always have an idea on hand.

  2. - Top - End - #32
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Grod_The_Giant's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Pittsburgh, PA
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Giants and Graveyards: Grod's collected 3.5 revisions

    Quote Originally Posted by infinitetech View Post
    i understand the need for such a change, but you have practically made the options bland and non thinking it through player friendly, such in that there are now very few utility spells or actions that allow for custom responses to a situation... i meant great job, but ouch, so much gone, why cant we balance to the highest denominator for once, not "pull a 'merica" and "leave no dumb-ass behind"?
    Um, what? Spell lists retain a decent variety of utility spells, and there are options to pick up more; non-casters have been greatly boosted... I'm really not seeing what you're complaining about.

    If you want an "everyone is tier 1" fix, have you seen my Myth?
    Hill Giant Games
    I make indie gaming books for you!
    Spoiler
    Show

    STaRS: A non-narrativeist, generic rules-light system.
    Grod's Guide to Greatness, 2e: A big book of player options for 5e.
    Grod's Grimoire of the Grotesque: An even bigger book of variant and expanded rules for 5e.
    Giants and Graveyards: My collected 3.5 class fixes and more.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grod_The_Giant View Post
    Grod's Law: You cannot and should not balance bad mechanics by making them annoying to use

  3. - Top - End - #33
    Orc in the Playground
     
    MindFlayer

    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Location
    Washington State, USA
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Giants and Graveyards: Grod's collected 3.5 revisions

    no, thats not it, its just that the vast majority of things you removed are ones that are used to further the quest, allow for a team to bypass a missing team member for the game or an item they need but didnt have the gear for, or other things that for small or new parties are the only way forward, why get rid of things when you can just change the usage a bit or give the npcs something to balance? there is already too many things being cut back in 5, why cut more here? sorry if i am too tired or was too tired, my insomnia has been beating me lately, so if im off my rocker more than usual thats probably why
    Reality is my clay, Imagination my tools.

    Always have an idea on hand.

  4. - Top - End - #34
    Colossus in the Playground
     
    Eldan's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Switzerland
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Giants and Graveyards: Grod's collected 3.5 revisions

    The removed spells seem to be mostly those that are just too damn broad. Polymorph and Planar Ally give the caster access to the entire monster manual. Or rather, every monster manual ever printed.

    One could easily homebrew a few spells with similar, but more limited effects. Polymorph spells with specific forms and stat bonuses are nice. Somethign like Bite of the Werebear is still strong, but the concept is balanceable.

    For planar binding, one could easily have more specialized versions of that, too. "Bind Guardian", if you need an outsider to guard a location or item for you, as an example.
    Resident Vancian Apologist

  5. - Top - End - #35
    Orc in the Playground
     
    MindFlayer

    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Location
    Washington State, USA
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Giants and Graveyards: Grod's collected 3.5 revisions

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldan View Post
    The removed spells seem to be mostly those that are just too damn broad. Polymorph and Planar Ally give the caster access to the entire monster manual. Or rather, every monster manual ever printed.

    One could easily homebrew a few spells with similar, but more limited effects. Polymorph spells with specific forms and stat bonuses are nice. Somethign like Bite of the Werebear is still strong, but the concept is balanceable.

    For planar binding, one could easily have more specialized versions of that, too. "Bind Guardian", if you need an outsider to guard a location or item for you, as an example.
    that makes sense, but isnt the point of an rpg to be the character's words are more important than the exact stats anyway? i mean i give players bonuses to things if they can explain a method thorougly or some times allow for better loot/crafting to be done
    Reality is my clay, Imagination my tools.

    Always have an idea on hand.

  6. - Top - End - #36
    Colossus in the Playground
     
    Eldan's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Switzerland
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Giants and Graveyards: Grod's collected 3.5 revisions

    Opinions are divided on that. And, well, look at it like this.

    Even if the words do most of the counting:
    Words+good rules >> words+bad rules.

    Or think of it like this: You have to equally creative players. One of them likes playing fighters, one likes casters.
    The first has all his ideas to work from, plus a small handful of feats, his magic items and whatever equipment he can buy.
    The second? All his ideas, a smaller handful of feats, his magic items, whatever equipment he can buy, plus a few dozen spells. And some of those spells just enable him to also use every ability in every monster manual ever.

    Who has more potential?

    It's just not fair. Look at the basic rules. A fighter, from levels 15-20 gains +6 to attack and three feats. That's all. A wizard? Gains a dozen abilities, each of which can do more than the entire fighter class. As written, a wizard can choose to just call something that's a better fighter than the party barbarian. Then, if they are bored, they can switch spells and become a better fighter themselves.
    Resident Vancian Apologist

  7. - Top - End - #37
    Orc in the Playground
     
    MindFlayer

    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Location
    Washington State, USA
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Giants and Graveyards: Grod's collected 3.5 revisions

    i see your point, but the game was designed that way, it has been that way since odnd, the fighter class is supposed to be for new players, npcs, or a base for advanced classes/multi classes, literally it has been said by the makers(admittedly pre buyout)that the many casters are supposed to phase the fighter out late game, for as the truth stands knowledge is power and the pen is always mightier than the sword, the thing about fighters is that you cant catch them un prepared like you can wizards, and rouges specialize into assassins/super thieves so they avoid battle, with how the game is designed and the original way that magic loot got dispersed through quests they made fighters equal by means of basically spell giving items, but nowadays they have lost even that, in honesty they are the one class we dont need, just start a player as a master of arms or a duelist instead, or something like that, also if you want to balance wizards just bring back the nullifying rules :basically the more iron an enemy wears or the more magic they have on or the less available magic the more that your spell gets nerfed when cast, this way everyone can get the good items but they are somewhat more balanced, fighters take out the big guys in iron, wizards zap the guys in leather and rangers/thieves snipe the casters thus everyone has their weakness, sword>magic magic>range/stealth range/stealth>sword just like it used to be
    but i digress, i guess its just that the fighter is supposed to be the big brute in the game and it never made sense to make him much else, aside from the only one with steady work per say due to being honest and strong (aka not sneaky or bookish), of course i started on odnd and have slowly gone through each version at some point, we wont talk about that space thing, nope wont talk, and i swear the dang company just wants this game to be an mmo where there is no customization, everyone is exactly the same no matter what they are, and there is no room to create anymore :'-( that's why i got on this home brew site, to try and get the game back to what its supposed to be, a door to imagination and fantasy
    Reality is my clay, Imagination my tools.

    Always have an idea on hand.

  8. - Top - End - #38
    Titan in the Playground
     
    PairO'Dice Lost's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Malsheem, Nessus
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Giants and Graveyards: Grod's collected 3.5 revisions

    Quote Originally Posted by infinitetech View Post
    but i digress, i guess its just that the fighter is supposed to be the big brute in the game and it never made sense to make him much else,

    [...]

    in honesty they are the one class we dont need, just start a player as a master of arms or a duelist instead
    The fighter is supposed to be a master tactician, inspiring leader, expert soldier, master of advanced weaponry, and just all-around effective warrior--including the specalizations like duelist/weaponmaster/archer/etc., just as a wizard gets to be a blaster/necromancer/summoner/etc.--as evidenced by his mook-slaying class feature in BECMI, his army leadership and domain management class features in 1e, his weapon specialization class feature in 2e, and his tons of feats in 3e. The fact that his mechanics haven't quite lived up to the archetype is a reason to change the mechanics to suit, not to declare that he's been best at the Big Stupid Brute role and so everything else about him should be thrown out and the resulting brutish class thrown out as being superfluous.

    On the subject of the fighter being an NPC class that's supposed to get overshadowed in the late game, that's not true in the slightest. Many of the famous early PCs were fighters, and very effective ones at that (see: Robilar clearing out the Tomb of Horrors solo thanks to his disposable minions loyal followers), and while they did get overshadowed at higher levels the trend throughout AD&D was always to give them more perks to prevent that because it was unintentional and not really noticed until they played a lot at high levels.

    On the subject of the fighter being "the new guy class," that was only ever true in the B/X and early 1e days. The fighter has been increasing in complexity since then at the same time that other "newbie classes" were introduced; by the end of 3e, the fighter had actually gotten to be a fairly complex class due to all the build choices that he needed to make (much more so than the casters who can just swap out poor spell choices the next day) so the barbarian was actually the Big Stupid Brute For Newbies class, while new caster classes like the warlock and warmage were much more newbie-friendly ("Step 1: you get everything you really need automatically, so pick whatever Advanced Learning spells or invocations that look cool. Step 2: Blow **** up and have fun. Step 3: There is no step 3."). There should be both simple and advanced classes for both magic and martial character archetypes, so everyone can have fun with the theme and level of complexity that they like best.
    Last edited by PairO'Dice Lost; 2014-10-10 at 02:18 AM.
    Better to DM in Baator than play in Celestia
    You can just call me Dice; that's how I roll.


    Spoiler: Sig of Holding
    Show

    Quote Originally Posted by abadguy View Post
    Darn you PoDL for making me care about a bunch of NPC Commoners!
    Quote Originally Posted by Chambers View Post
    I'm pretty sure turning Waterdeep into a sheet of glass wasn't the best win condition for that fight. We lived though!
    Quote Originally Posted by MaxiDuRaritry View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by PairO'DiceLost View Post
    <Snip>
    Where are my Like, Love, and Want to Have Your Manchildren (Totally Homo) buttons for this post?
    Won a cookie for this, won everything for this

  9. - Top - End - #39
    Colossus in the Playground
     
    Eldan's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Switzerland
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Giants and Graveyards: Grod's collected 3.5 revisions

    It's pitifully easy to catch a fighter unaware. He was what against ambushes, maybe a spot check? Spot and listen, if he has no other skillpoints whatsoever? A wizard can be invisible from level 3. Or teleport, on later levels. Or just sit in a paralell dimension where the fighter can never touch him. The rogue? Can never hide as well as the wizard.

    Anyway. That's not the point. A lot of people have seen those points about "wizards should be better" and you know what? We think that shouldn't be the case. This game gives us options to play what we want, so we should be able to play what we want without feeling worthless.

    There are levels in this game. The game claims that tehy are an indicator of power. So a level 10 fighter should be equal in power to a level 10 wizard.

    If one wants to have wizards be infinitely more powerful than fighters, there's a solution to that, I've proposed it before.

    Split the game into tiers, as 4E proposed.
    On the heroic tier, levels 1-5 or so, fighter is a class, wizard isn't. On higher levels, you phase out fighters and bring in wizards. Fighter players can play, I don't know, demigods.

    Think of it as fiction. You don't pair off the local town guard with the god Odin and then expect them to contribute equally to the adventure. Equally, you don't pair off Harry Potter in his first year with Cu Chullain or Herakles. The game should be able to put equally powerful people together at the same level. As it stands, it doesn't, so a lot of people think this should be corrected.
    Resident Vancian Apologist

  10. - Top - End - #40
    Orc in the Playground
     
    MindFlayer

    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Location
    Washington State, USA
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Giants and Graveyards: Grod's collected 3.5 revisions

    the fighter was only a fill stop as far as a face goes, was never supposed to be his role outside of prestiging in to a general or taction, if you want a melee user to stay on par they need to either get better equipment such as magic swords, or get advanced, and i mean truly advanced, training, a straight up every day sword wielder would Never compare to pretty much any other class there is, what i meant by you wont catch them off guard is they have a sword where casters need to prep/cast/stuff, and high level rouges can hide better than invis, invis is detectable through tons of enemy abilities, a ridiculous hide check however cant be hahaha, i do think that yes, they need to make the fighters start at at least lvl 5 equivalent if they are to remain usable, that or force them to choose a prestige early/give it as a feature, as it sits lore wise, logic wise, or any wise they should not be as they are, also, if you are talking about the minion build then you are truly referencing what was errata-ed into the royal npc class, the barbarian is only the slightest bit better due to their rage ability, otherwise and including that they are basically the squishier but stronger version of warriors, also in your Potter example, Draco is basically his equal at that point yes, weaker even according to some? yet he can cast avadacadavra at will if he so chose to/needed to or any number of nasty things his father taught him, if he wanted to he could wipe the whole school out, honestly, Hercules would die in like 3 sec(which is half a round or just his move action) and yes, Gygax as well as several others have indeed said it was a "protect the wizard until he needs you as a sacrifice or diversion" class, hell, the monk is more sensible, they at least can achieve some sort of spiritual boost that makes them above human, fighters are literally the only class the game doesn't specifically say at any point is better than a commoner aside from basic sword training and basic armor training, all others say somewhere that they are at a level unobtainable by commoners, and besides, with those minions, what class are they? commoner, guardsmen, hunter, cut purse, or royal, all npcs, and the only one who is the same as the pc class is guardsmen whom is actually a bit better than fighter, ranger is way better than hunter, bard way better than commoner, enchantress way better than royal, rouge way better than cut purse only the artisan class may be better than pc classes, and only in their trade of choice, but i am sorry grod the giant, this has become infighting, i will try not to keep going,
    Reality is my clay, Imagination my tools.

    Always have an idea on hand.

  11. - Top - End - #41
    Titan in the Playground
     
    PairO'Dice Lost's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Malsheem, Nessus
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Giants and Graveyards: Grod's collected 3.5 revisions

    First off: Between the backslash and Shift keys on your keyboard, you'll find an Enter key. Might want to consider using it.

    That said:

    Quote Originally Posted by infinitetech View Post
    the fighter was only a fill stop as far as a face goes, was never supposed to be his role outside of prestiging in to a general or taction, if you want a melee user to stay on par they need to either get better equipment such as magic swords, or get advanced, and i mean truly advanced, training, a straight up every day sword wielder would Never compare to pretty much any other class there is,
    But that's the point: the fighter is supposed to have "advanced, truly advanced" training. There are bunches of fighting style, tactical, and leader-y feats in the system, the fighter gets more of them than anyone else, and by the standards of mere mortals a fighter is a walking talking blender of doom at the head of an army. That's what the fighter is, and was always, intended to be. It just so happens that high-level full casters are just as far above high-level fighters as high-level fighters are above normal people, so his face-y-ness and combat prowess look pathetic by comparison. Again: fix the lackluster mechanics to match the heroic archetype so martial types are on par with casters at low, mid, and high levels, don't dismiss the fighter as a thug because the mechanics fell short of the intended outcome.

    what i meant by you wont catch them off guard is they have a sword where casters need to prep/cast/stuff, and high level rouges can hide better than invis, invis is detectable through tons of enemy abilities, a ridiculous hide check however cant be hahaha,
    Without Darkstalker, rogues can be automatically detected with scent, blindsense, blindsight, tremorsense, lifesense, mindsight, and a plethora of other special senses; with Darkstalker, a rogue can hide from some of those but still isn't as un-findable as you're making him out to be. Not to mention the need for Hide in Plain Sight to let him actually use stealth most of the time. To build a rogue that can actually, truly, reliably conceal himself from everything is doable but requires focusing the majority of build resources on it and therefore making you less effective at anything else. And even so, at high levels a caster can do it better with much less resource investment against the majority of the opposition.
    Better to DM in Baator than play in Celestia
    You can just call me Dice; that's how I roll.


    Spoiler: Sig of Holding
    Show

    Quote Originally Posted by abadguy View Post
    Darn you PoDL for making me care about a bunch of NPC Commoners!
    Quote Originally Posted by Chambers View Post
    I'm pretty sure turning Waterdeep into a sheet of glass wasn't the best win condition for that fight. We lived though!
    Quote Originally Posted by MaxiDuRaritry View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by PairO'DiceLost View Post
    <Snip>
    Where are my Like, Love, and Want to Have Your Manchildren (Totally Homo) buttons for this post?
    Won a cookie for this, won everything for this

  12. - Top - End - #42
    Orc in the Playground
     
    JonathonWilder's Avatar

    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    Roy, Utah, USA
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Giants and Graveyards: Grod's collected 3.5 revisions

    Quote Originally Posted by infinitetech View Post
    i understand the need for such a change, but you have practically made the options bland and non thinking it through player friendly, such in that there are now very few utility spells or actions that allow for custom responses to a situation... i meant great job, but ouch, so much gone, why cant we balance to the highest denominator for once, not "pull a 'merica" and "leave no dumb-ass behind"?
    I apologize, but I'm going to have to disagree.

    Because of Grod's work spellcasting is now far more interesting, with unique and flavorful classes with abilities unlike anything a straight wizard could offer. Heck, I would want to play a Beguiler. Mage of the Unseen Hand, Seer, or Warmage (in that order) any day over an uninteresting and boring wizard.

    Clerics, with the fact much of their spellcasting now comes from taking multiple domains from their deity it allows for more uniqueness. Ever since 3.0 Clerics in my eyes have been bland and boring, domains baringly making a different in telling apart one who worships a deity of war and one who worships a deity of love. It is one of the things I miss about AD&D is the versatility clerics have by way of specially priests. Grod took a step in the right direction by limiting general spellcasting and offering greater access to domains.

    Druids, they feel more distinctive because of their Druidic Orders ability and it also offers the means of having speak with animals at first level and letting me choose whether or not I want a druid with any sort of connection elementals. That and lets be honest the druid could do far too much, with an impressive spell list, wildshaping, and animal compantion all rolled into one.

    I say, lets have a D&D game where players don't think wizards have all the answers and we get to pick casters with a greater variety of class abilities and flavor. Give me the ability to alter my appearance and form, hide myself from divination, lie in a zone of truth, keep mysel hidden from magical detection, to Bluff Death, to show the power of tricksters, and so many other awesome abilities with the Beguiler then have me play a boring old Wizard.

    So yah, I disagree
    Last edited by JonathonWilder; 2014-10-10 at 10:37 AM.

  13. - Top - End - #43
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Grod_The_Giant's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Pittsburgh, PA
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Giants and Graveyards: Grod's collected 3.5 revisions

    OK, OP checking in here... can we not turn this thread into a rehash of the standard wizard-verses-fighter arguments? I'm sure we've all read them a dozen times by now, and to be honest, they're not really relevant here. I'd be happy to hear specific criticisms, infinitetech, but the overall philosophy here is set.

    JonathonWilder, thanks for your kind words.
    Hill Giant Games
    I make indie gaming books for you!
    Spoiler
    Show

    STaRS: A non-narrativeist, generic rules-light system.
    Grod's Guide to Greatness, 2e: A big book of player options for 5e.
    Grod's Grimoire of the Grotesque: An even bigger book of variant and expanded rules for 5e.
    Giants and Graveyards: My collected 3.5 class fixes and more.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grod_The_Giant View Post
    Grod's Law: You cannot and should not balance bad mechanics by making them annoying to use

  14. - Top - End - #44
    Orc in the Playground
     
    JonathonWilder's Avatar

    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    Roy, Utah, USA
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Giants and Graveyards: Grod's collected 3.5 revisions

    Quote Originally Posted by Grod_The_Giant View Post
    JonathonWilder, thanks for your kind words.
    You're welcome.

    Also I edited my post, seems there was a lot of mistakes and typos here and there.

  15. - Top - End - #45
    Orc in the Playground
     
    MindFlayer

    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Location
    Washington State, USA
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Giants and Graveyards: Grod's collected 3.5 revisions

    sorry, and i have said that i like alot of the edits... its just that some of the best storyline powers are gone with this, id have prefered some way to boost the others instead of cut back on the class that is supposed to be "Mr. utility", however i do rather enjoy the new things that you added to some classes, and i hope you keep up the good work
    Reality is my clay, Imagination my tools.

    Always have an idea on hand.

  16. - Top - End - #46
    Orc in the Playground
     
    JonathonWilder's Avatar

    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    Roy, Utah, USA
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Giants and Graveyards: Grod's collected 3.5 revisions

    Quote Originally Posted by infinitetech View Post
    sorry, and i have said that i like alot of the edits... its just that some of the best storyline powers are gone with this, id have prefered some way to boost the others instead of cut back on the class that is supposed to be "Mr. utility", however i do rather enjoy the new things that you added to some classes, and i hope you keep up the good work
    The problem is, that you cannot boost the lower tier classes to line up with tier 2 or 1 classes without giving them spells. It is far easier and more sensible to bring tier 1 and 2 classes down to tier 3.

    Please explain what "storyline powers " have been lost and why they are necessary

  17. - Top - End - #47
    Orc in the Playground
     
    MindFlayer

    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Location
    Washington State, USA
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Giants and Graveyards: Grod's collected 3.5 revisions

    if we were to give them moves much like the monk set but with weapons then they would actually jump almost a whole teir, flurry of blades? pressure point stab? all sorts of these moves exist irl, and things that let you edit parts of the world or bring in utility help are storyline spells, they are the things that help a story move along, help get what was accidentally forgotten, help all of the party be able to use good ideas, so long as people work together anyway (and many of these were removed as if DMs cant say no as their instructions tell them to), or replace a downed team member so they can survive to bring them back
    Reality is my clay, Imagination my tools.

    Always have an idea on hand.

  18. - Top - End - #48
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Grod_The_Giant's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Pittsburgh, PA
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Giants and Graveyards: Grod's collected 3.5 revisions

    Quote Originally Posted by infinitetech View Post
    sorry, and i have said that i like alot of the edits... its just that some of the best storyline powers are gone with this, id have prefered some way to boost the others instead of cut back on the class that is supposed to be "Mr. utility", however i do rather enjoy the new things that you added to some classes, and i hope you keep up the good work
    What sort of powers, specifically, are you talking about here?

    Quote Originally Posted by infinitetech View Post
    if we were to give them moves much like the monk set but with weapons then they would actually jump almost a whole teir, flurry of blades? pressure point stab? all sorts of these moves exist irl, and things that let you edit parts of the world or bring in utility help are storyline spells, they are the things that help a story move along, help get what was accidentally forgotten, help all of the party be able to use good ideas, so long as people work together anyway (and many of these were removed as if DMs cant say no as their instructions tell them to), or replace a downed team member so they can survive to bring them back
    The revised low-tier classes DO get special moves. The Barbarian gets Brute Powers, the Fighter gets Aspect Abilities (and all kinds of bonus feat goodness), and the Monk has officially been replaced by Unarmed Swordsage. They also all get non-combat special things, albeit often skill-based bonuses.
    Hill Giant Games
    I make indie gaming books for you!
    Spoiler
    Show

    STaRS: A non-narrativeist, generic rules-light system.
    Grod's Guide to Greatness, 2e: A big book of player options for 5e.
    Grod's Grimoire of the Grotesque: An even bigger book of variant and expanded rules for 5e.
    Giants and Graveyards: My collected 3.5 class fixes and more.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grod_The_Giant View Post
    Grod's Law: You cannot and should not balance bad mechanics by making them annoying to use

  19. - Top - End - #49
    Orc in the Playground
     
    MindFlayer

    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Location
    Washington State, USA
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Giants and Graveyards: Grod's collected 3.5 revisions

    i saw those, i just meant a few "you get these at lvl x" type insta boosts to keep them on par, i hadnt noticed the monk tho, the powers i specified in my post before this one, things like wishes, summons, and other up to the player group and dm type spells, there is a reason most of those require exp and gold, to make them hard to do but worth it
    Reality is my clay, Imagination my tools.

    Always have an idea on hand.

  20. - Top - End - #50
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Grod_The_Giant's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Pittsburgh, PA
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Giants and Graveyards: Grod's collected 3.5 revisions

    Quote Originally Posted by infinitetech View Post
    i saw those, i just meant a few "you get these at lvl x" type insta boosts to keep them on par, i hadnt noticed the monk tho, the powers i specified in my post before this one, things like wishes, summons, and other up to the player group and dm type spells, there is a reason most of those require exp and gold, to make them hard to do but worth it
    Wish and Miracle shouldn't be things that are commonly available. A wish should be special, not something any 17th-level wizard can pass out like candy. As for summons... the spells as written are bad design all around. Not only do they offer way too much variety for the investment, not only to they break action economy, but they're clunky-- they make the summoner's turn take up way more time than anyone else's, and require you to either carry a binder of extra character sheets or stop in the middle of a fight to look things up. The Conjurer and Druid still get to play the summoning game, don't get me wrong, but they have to do so via class features that are easier to balance.
    Hill Giant Games
    I make indie gaming books for you!
    Spoiler
    Show

    STaRS: A non-narrativeist, generic rules-light system.
    Grod's Guide to Greatness, 2e: A big book of player options for 5e.
    Grod's Grimoire of the Grotesque: An even bigger book of variant and expanded rules for 5e.
    Giants and Graveyards: My collected 3.5 class fixes and more.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grod_The_Giant View Post
    Grod's Law: You cannot and should not balance bad mechanics by making them annoying to use

  21. - Top - End - #51
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    nonsi's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2010

    Default Re: Giants and Graveyards: Grod's collected 3.5 revisions

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldan View Post
    Split the game into tiers, as 4E proposed.
    On the heroic tier, levels 1-5 or so, fighter is a class, wizard isn't. On higher levels, you phase out fighters and bring in wizards. Fighter players can play, I don't know, demigods.

    Think of it as fiction. You don't pair off the local town guard with the god Odin and then expect them to contribute equally to the adventure. Equally, you don't pair off Harry Potter in his first year with Cu Chullain or Herakles.
    I strongly object this approach.
    The fact that WotC designers have failed miserably in finding a balancing point between melees and spellcasters (actually, in hind sight, all have failed till 3.5e (haven't taken a deep enough dive into later versions to make that claim yet)) doesn't mean we should accept it.
    I tend to see the whole motivation of homebrewing forums in the first place, in wanting to reach that balance.



    Quote Originally Posted by Eldan View Post
    The game should be able to put equally powerful people together at the same level. As it stands, it doesn't, so a lot of people think this should be corrected.
    Different sets of abilities make you powerful in different scenarios.
    Therefore, I think a more worthy goal would be to make equally enjoyable classes, with a more or less equal amount of things to contribute in a rich and dynamic RPG, which is comprised of many elements - hack&slash being just one of them.
    I maybe deluding myself, but I believe that in my overhaul codex I've managed to offer just that - classes that allow you to fulfill your character vision without ever feeling left behind and without outshining others at their comfort zone.

    Yes - one vs. the other at close range, a mage shouldn't have a reasonable chance of emerging the victor vs. an equally experienced man of war.
    And yes - this doesn't have to conflict with mages being T2 and men of war being T3.

    As for NPC classes - that's just laziness.
    If you deem a class worthy only for an NPC, then either it shouldn't exist or you didn't put enough thought into it.
    Last edited by nonsi; 2014-10-10 at 04:32 PM.

  22. - Top - End - #52
    Orc in the Playground
     
    MindFlayer

    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Location
    Washington State, USA
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Giants and Graveyards: Grod's collected 3.5 revisions

    you cant just "give out wishes" they cost a ****e ton of exp and gold, trust me, that's not easy to repair and makes them much weaker than the team if they keep this up, and how about making it so that you have to buy each monster type you wish to have access to? that way its a smaller list and the class who is supposed to learn all spells doesn't get jipped of one of the coolest, that would make it so they have to find (with random roll) each type they could try and summon(also make a rule that they need a sheet for each summon)or make it so that each summon is its own spell, either way they need to prepare that version of the spell in the rest time until they take a late level feat perhaps

    also technically, the battle pecking order should be: melee<ranged, ranged<caster, caster<melee, sneak can kill/be killed by all, even if this isnt adhered to and as far as items go... "Magic must defeat magic!... And one more thing... *finger chops your head* " unless you have something made of mage bane or witch steel lol... or void glass *shudder*
    Last edited by infinitetech; 2014-10-11 at 12:16 AM.
    Reality is my clay, Imagination my tools.

    Always have an idea on hand.

  23. - Top - End - #53
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Grod_The_Giant's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Pittsburgh, PA
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Giants and Graveyards: Grod's collected 3.5 revisions

    Quote Originally Posted by infinitetech View Post
    you cant just "give out wishes" they cost a ****e ton of exp and gold
    Experience is a river-- if you drop behind you'll soon catch up. And neither spell has a gold cost. Hell, miracle can give you access to most any spell in the game without even an XP cost.

    and how about making it so that you have to buy each monster type you wish to have access to? that way its a smaller list and the class who is supposed to learn all spells doesn't get jipped of one of the coolest, that would make it so they have to find (with random roll) each type they could try and summon(also make a rule that they need a sheet for each summon)or make it so that each summon is its own spell, either way they need to prepare that version of the spell in the rest time until they take a late level feat perhaps
    There's your problem. "The class that knows all the spells" is a dangerous design goal, and in practice... well, look at the classes that can learn all the spells. Wizard, Cleric, Archivist, StP Erudite... notice how they're all tier 1? Avoiding the "class that knows all the spells" was one of the prime goals of this rewrite. Look at the Conjurer for a balanced summoner.
    Hill Giant Games
    I make indie gaming books for you!
    Spoiler
    Show

    STaRS: A non-narrativeist, generic rules-light system.
    Grod's Guide to Greatness, 2e: A big book of player options for 5e.
    Grod's Grimoire of the Grotesque: An even bigger book of variant and expanded rules for 5e.
    Giants and Graveyards: My collected 3.5 class fixes and more.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grod_The_Giant View Post
    Grod's Law: You cannot and should not balance bad mechanics by making them annoying to use

  24. - Top - End - #54
    Orc in the Playground
     
    MindFlayer

    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Location
    Washington State, USA
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Giants and Graveyards: Grod's collected 3.5 revisions

    miracle used to have rules that made it so you had to complete a divine favor afterwards or risk a gods wrath, i disagree on xp, true you may be unable to stay more than like 3 lvls or so behind, but that is still a very long way behind, and its not like they will stop using the spells, though if you don't think that is enough then you could implement an angry planar creature just like the god thing and exp on the miracle, and one way i found to balance the wiz when we tried to lessen him instead of boost others was the multiple spells for each sub spell and we tried restricting the spell slots they got but could never choose a good number, also id say sorcerer is teir 1 wiz is more teir 2 due to lack of casts and needing to prep before hand the right things
    Reality is my clay, Imagination my tools.

    Always have an idea on hand.

  25. - Top - End - #55
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Amechra's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Where I live.

    Default Re: Giants and Graveyards: Grod's collected 3.5 revisions

    I could build you a Wizard, using just official materials, who can pretty much cast their spells at-will. And who can, more or less, be a Spontaneous caster. It's not even that hard.

    Also, if you look at the mathematics of XP rewards per encounter... you can usually catch up in one or two fights.

    But anyway... I like this work; it's quite nice. I kinda want to see someone who preps their spells from a spellbook, and who gets an "improved" version of Advanced Learning that lets them, I dunno, swap out Advanced Learning spells 1/day or something.

    But I acknowledge that that would be quite hard to balance.
    Quote Originally Posted by segtrfyhtfgj View Post
    door is a fake exterior wall
    If you see me try to discuss the nitty-gritty of D&D 5e, kindly point me to my signature and remind me that I shouldn't. Please and thank you!

  26. - Top - End - #56
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Grod_The_Giant's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Pittsburgh, PA
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Giants and Graveyards: Grod's collected 3.5 revisions

    Quote Originally Posted by Amechra View Post
    I could build you a Wizard, using just official materials, who can pretty much cast their spells at-will. And who can, more or less, be a Spontaneous caster. It's not even that hard.
    This one. And that trickery aside, Tier 1 doesn't mean power; it means OPTIONS. Even without trickery, the wizard can run away and come back tomorrow with the exact spells for the job. But again, a tier argument is not the function of this thread. One of my major philosophies here was fixed-list casters only--

    But anyway... I like this work; it's quite nice. I kinda want to see someone who preps their spells from a spellbook, and who gets an "improved" version of Advanced Learning that lets them, I dunno, swap out Advanced Learning spells 1/day or something.

    But I acknowledge that that would be quite hard to balance.
    The closest I've got is the Ritualist, who can sort of cast any spell he wants... but who takes a long time to do it, and caps at 7th level spells.
    Hill Giant Games
    I make indie gaming books for you!
    Spoiler
    Show

    STaRS: A non-narrativeist, generic rules-light system.
    Grod's Guide to Greatness, 2e: A big book of player options for 5e.
    Grod's Grimoire of the Grotesque: An even bigger book of variant and expanded rules for 5e.
    Giants and Graveyards: My collected 3.5 class fixes and more.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grod_The_Giant View Post
    Grod's Law: You cannot and should not balance bad mechanics by making them annoying to use

  27. - Top - End - #57
    Orc in the Playground
     
    MindFlayer

    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Location
    Washington State, USA
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Giants and Graveyards: Grod's collected 3.5 revisions

    you don't "catch up", you get back to where you were, but everyone else is usually almost a whole dungeon ahead, unless the dm is making the encounters as EXP super packed as possible, in which case you are behind half a dungeons worth, (dont forget, they keep moving forward too, like the river analogy, if you get pulled behind by a rock you will keep moving forward but you will never catch back up without swimming yourself [single player and gm missions]) if you want i guess you could increase the costs more, also, i like the idea of switching the use as a feat, but to make it more costly how about that that is a meta magic, make switch take a higher slot and make changes to which spell it is entirely take an even higher one, these might stack in some scenarios like swapping a cone of could for a summon fire mesphit, this makes the stuff severally limited, especially combined with less spell slots
    Reality is my clay, Imagination my tools.

    Always have an idea on hand.

  28. - Top - End - #58
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Amechra's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Where I live.

    Default Re: Giants and Graveyards: Grod's collected 3.5 revisions

    No, by RAW you do catch up to where your friends are currently. You get more XP from the same fights, after all, and require less XP to level up.

    And by "where they are currently", I mean you end up with the same XP total. It takes actual effort to stay behind everyone else by more than 2 levels.

    This is, of course, barring the fact that a properly played Wizard can solo challenges with a CR 8 higher than their level.

    Anyway...

    I remember taking a look at your Ritualist and feeling a bit... mixed about the whole deal. Part of me was thinking something like the Craft Grimoire feature from this Wizard rework.

    Basically, the class can craft a book called a Grimoire that can contain X many spells; you can cast any spell in the Grimoire as if it were on your spell list, but A) they add the Grimoire as a focus component and B) they use a spell slot 3 levels higher than their "actual" level.
    Quote Originally Posted by segtrfyhtfgj View Post
    door is a fake exterior wall
    If you see me try to discuss the nitty-gritty of D&D 5e, kindly point me to my signature and remind me that I shouldn't. Please and thank you!

  29. - Top - End - #59
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Grod_The_Giant's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Pittsburgh, PA
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Giants and Graveyards: Grod's collected 3.5 revisions

    I've updated the races to a more unified format, as well as doing some minor tweaking and changes. (Everyone now has a choice of racial bonus feats, and everyone gets some weapon familiarity)

    Quote Originally Posted by Amechra View Post
    I kinda want to see someone who preps their spells from a spellbook, and who gets an "improved" version of Advanced Learning that lets them, I dunno, swap out Advanced Learning spells 1/day or something.

    But I acknowledge that that would be quite hard to balance.
    You might be able to do, oh, a list twice as long as the spontaneous casters here (closer to 20 spells known/level) with a few extra (lower-level) Advanced Learnings, and prepare from that list. That would be... possible to balance, as long as you were careful when writing said list. The bigger danger is that I feel like it would step on other casters' toes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Amechra View Post
    Basically, the class can craft a book called a Grimoire that can contain X many spells; you can cast any spell in the Grimoire as if it were on your spell list, but A) they add the Grimoire as a focus component and B) they use a spell slot 3 levels higher than their "actual" level.
    It sounds kind of like the focus item from my Ritualist? It's a neat idea, certainly.
    Hill Giant Games
    I make indie gaming books for you!
    Spoiler
    Show

    STaRS: A non-narrativeist, generic rules-light system.
    Grod's Guide to Greatness, 2e: A big book of player options for 5e.
    Grod's Grimoire of the Grotesque: An even bigger book of variant and expanded rules for 5e.
    Giants and Graveyards: My collected 3.5 class fixes and more.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grod_The_Giant View Post
    Grod's Law: You cannot and should not balance bad mechanics by making them annoying to use

  30. - Top - End - #60
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Vhaidara's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    GMT -5
    Gender
    Male2Female

    Default Re: Giants and Graveyards: Grod's collected 3.5 revisions

    So, what are your thoughts on mixing your rewrite with PF? I'm setting up a list of modifications I'm going to use for my games, and so far I have
    PFSRD (yes, including all DSP and most other third party)
    Giants and Graveyards. Overlap = merge, so Paladins get the benefits of both PF Paladin with archetypes and all, then the benefits of G&G on top of that (your paladin is one of my favorites)
    Rules as Common Sense Dictates (at least, the ones I agree with)
    I follow a general rule: better to ask and be told no than not to ask at all.

    Shadeblight by KennyPyro

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •