Class and Level Geekery XII - Even Nerds Call Us Nerds

[ChristianSt]

Can someone explain the 8 dexterity to me? Dwarves don't have a dexterity penalty, do they?

I think that is an error of some sort: The SRD lists dwarf ability traits as "+2 Constitution, -2 Charisma." So I think that it should be Charisma ~8.

[CaDzilla]

Most, but not all, devils have telepathy; in particular, imps do not. Furthermore, devil telepathy has a range of 100 feet, and Qarr has been shown to use telepathy at a substantially longer range than that. And we already know he has sorcerer levels; hence, the spell.

Nowhere does it state in the 3.5e Monster Manual that imps are an exception to the Telepathy powers. The special ability that imps do not have at will is greater teleport. I personally handwave that as a power he got from his boss(es?) due to his PC levels.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

I thought that since only Baatezu have telepathy, and Imps are not Baatezu, Qarr wouldn't have Telepathy as a trait.

[137beth]

Nowhere does it state in the 3.5e Monster Manual that imps are an exception to the Telepathy powers. The special ability that imps do not have at will is greater teleport. I personally handwave that as a power he got from his boss(es?) due to his PC levels.

Other devils that have telepathy have it listed in their stat-block. Imps do not, so they do not have telepathy.

[Porthos]

From the SRD:

Devil Traits
Most devils possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature’s entry).

Immunity to fire and poison.
Resistance to acid 10 and cold 10.
See in Darkness (Su): Some devils can see perfectly in darkness of any kind, even that created by a deeper darkness spell.
Summon (Sp): Some devils share the ability to summon others of their kind (the success chance and type of devils summoned are noted in each monster description).
Telepathy.

My emphasis.

Imp
Special Qualities: Alternate form, damage reduction 5/good or silver, darkvision 60 ft., fast healing 2, immunity to poison, resistance to fire 5

Telepathy is not listed on the SQ block.

Furthermore, of all the creatures listed on the Devil page, Imps and Lemures are the only ones without Telepathy listed in their SQ blocks.

I think it is logical conclude that they don't have it since the SRD went out of the way to list it on all of the others.

[Crusher]

From the SRD:



My emphasis.


Telepathy is not listed on the SQ block.

Furthermore, of all the creatures listed on the Devil page, Imps and Lemures are the only ones without Telepathy listed in their SQ blocks.

I think it is logical conclude that they don't have it since the SRD went out of the way to list it on all of the others.

Looking at it the other way, are there any devils that say they *do not* have telepathy or whatever else? Because if none of them say they're lacking any abilities, and I think that's the case, then I think there's a misinterpretation of how that block of common devil abilities is meant to be applied.

I don't think it means "these are the abilities all devils have unless they specifically say otherwise". I think it actually means "If you're DM and don't have time to look up an entry, the odds are good that any given devil will be able to do these things. But if you want to get all detail-y you'll have to look up each monster's actual stat block. Most will have these abilities, but a few of them won't."

So the initial block doesn't supersede each stat block, its more like a Cliff's Notes for what the stat blocks are each likely, but not certain, to have. To be sure, you'd have to check each stat block.

[Porthos]

Looking at it the other way, are there any devils that say they *do not* have telepathy or whatever else? Because if none of them say they're lacking any abilities, and I think that's the case, then I think there's a misinterpretation of how that block of common devil abilities is meant to be applied.

Lemures, as I said, don't have telepathy and they're a type of devil.

There's also not many devils listed in the SRD (11 in total). But the two weakest, lemures and imps, have less abilities than the more powerfuls ones.

Makes sense to me.

ETA::: Deciding to check:

Imps only have Resitance 5 to fire, not immunity
No Resistance to Acid or Cold
No ability to see in darkness
and, as noted, no telepathy.

Really, Imps are at the bottom of the totem pole here (outside of lemures). It makes sense that they don't get everything.

If the SRD meant to say all instead of most it would have said all instead of most.

[Crusher]

Lemures, as I said, don't have telepathy and they're a type of devil.

There's also not many devils listed in the SRD (11 in total). But the two weakest, lemures and imps, have less abilities than the more powerfuls ones.

Makes sense to me.

ETA::: Deciding to check:

Imps only have Resitance 5 to fire, not immunity
No Resistance to Acid or Cold
No ability to see in darkness
and, as noted, no telepathy.

Really, Imps are at the bottom of the totem pole here (outside of lemures). It makes sense that they don't get everything.

If the SRD meant to say all instead of most it would have said all instead of most.

Right. It doesn't say Lemures have telepathy but it also doesn't say that *they don't* have telepathy either, right? No explicit denial of the ability.

[Shale]

But many other devils' stat blocks do explicitly say that they have telepathy. Why note it in some entries but not others if they all have it?

[CaDzilla]

Right. It doesn't say Lemures have telepathy but it also doesn't say that *they don't* have telepathy either, right? No explicit denial of the ability.

Sorry, forgot that imps aren't Baatezu, so he doesn't telepathy as a trait. However, this also means that him summoning that pit fiend was a spell of his rather than a trait. Though this could be handwaved as his rank being augmented by his class levels.

[Porthos]

Right. It doesn't say Lemures have telepathy but it also doesn't say that *they don't* have telepathy either, right? No explicit denial of the ability.

But that's not how statblocks work. There isn't a presumption of having to deny something unless it is explicitly noted that it isn't there for some reason.

I will also note the the Lemure is specifically noted as being mindless, so it'd be pretty silly for it to be telepathic.

But many other devils' stat blocks do explicitly say that they have telepathy. Why note it in some entries but not others if they all have it?

To jump off point this for a second, if something is supposed to have all of the traits of a subtype, the SRD says so (as far as I know). Take undead. Statblocks will say 'undead traits' in the Special Qualities section, unless they are tailoring it for a specific monster.

The Imp DOES NOT have 'devil traits' listed in its statblock, so I don't think you can presume that they have all of them. Especially since there are already differences between it and the 'standard' devil package.

Other Examples:

The Chain Devil doesn't have the immunity to fire and poison that most devils have. Instead it is immune to cold. Are people going to tell me it is also immune to fire and poison, and the creators of 3x just forgot to include it?

...

OK, that's possible, I admit. But other devils have different abilities as well. It seems to me that the generic block at the beginning is for the DMs who create their own devils, so they know what most have.

As an aside, it turns out that the Chain Devil is the other devil listed on that page besides Imps and Lemures that doesn't have telepathy. Making it 8 out of 11. Whoops. Missed that on my quick search.

Given that the devils have differences in the Special Qualities listing and the Devil Trait said 'most' not 'all', I can't see how we can presume that Imps have telepathy.

If someone wants to run their game that way, kewl beans. But it looks to me that RAW doesn't say that Imps have it standard.

[CaDzilla]

But that's not how statblocks work. There isn't a presumption of having to deny something unless it is explicitly noted that it isn't there for some reason.

I will also note the the Lemure is specifically noted as being mindless, so it'd be pretty silly for it to be telepathic.



To jump off point this for a second, if something is supposed to have all of the traits of a subtype, the SRD says so. Take undead. Statblocks will say 'undead traits' in the Special Qualities section, unless they are tailoring it for a specific monster.

The Imp DOES NOT have 'devil traits' listed in its statblock, so I don't think you can presume that they have all of them. Especially since there are already differences between it and the 'standard' devil package.

Other Examples:

The Chain Devil doesn't have the immunity to fire and poison that most devils have. Instead it is immune to cold. Are people going to tell me it is also immune to fire and poison, and the creators of 3x just forgot to include it?

...

OK, that's possible, I admit. But other devils have different abilities as well. It seems to me that the generic block at the beginning is for the DMs who create their own devils, so they know what most have.

As an aside, it turns out that the Chain Devil is the other devil listed on that page besides Imps and Lemures that doesn't have telepathy. Making it 8 out of 11. Whoops. Missed that on my quick search.

Given that the devils have differences in the Special Qualities listing and the Devil Trait said 'most' not 'all', I can't see how we can presume that Imps have telepathy.

If someone wants to run their game that way, kewl beans. But it looks to me that RAW doesn't say that Imps have it standard.

According to the 3.5 MM, the devils with Baatezu in their sub-headings are the ones with the normal traits. Kytons, erinyes', hellcats, and imps are not Baatezu. I should also note that none of Qarr's abilities follow his statistics block. He shouldn't be able to teleport at will or summon anything, especially a devil that is second in authority only to archdevils.

[Porthos]

According to the 3.5 MM, the devils with Baatezu in their sub-headings are the ones with the normal traits. Kytons, erinyes', hellcats, and imps are not Baatezu.

Fair enuf.

[Taelas]

Erinyes are Baatezu, actually.

So are Lemures, and they are the only baatezu in the book that do not have Telepathy listed (presumably because they specifically cannot communicate). They instead have the Mindless trait listed (twice). It is also not the only baatezu trait they are lacking. (They cannot summon baatezu, for instance.)

It seems to me that Qarr is simply an Imp that for some reason has the baatezu subtype. Maybe he has a template. That would be one way of explaining his telepathy and teleportation, as well as his ability to summon Pit Fiends.

[ReaderAt2046]

Note that according to strip 943, Elan now has a Chaos Sabre, whatever that is.

[CaDzilla]

Erinyes are Baatezu, actually.

So are Lemures, and they are the only baatezu in the book that do not have Telepathy listed (presumably because they specifically cannot communicate). They instead have the Mindless trait listed (twice). It is also not the only baatezu trait they are lacking. (They cannot summon baatezu, for instance.)

It seems to me that Qarr is simply an Imp that for some reason has the baatezu subtype. Maybe he has a template. That would be one way of explaining his telepathy and teleportation, as well as his ability to summon Pit Fiends.

While they can't communicate, they are sensitive to other devils' commands

[Vinyadan]

I am just wondering if the thread title is a reference to Shamus Young's commentary to this page of DM of the Rings.

[Taelas]

I am just wondering if the thread title is a reference to Shamus Young's commentary to this page of DM of the Rings.

Bit more local.

[Quartz]

Is it worth noting that Dorukan and Lirian aren't exactly dead? They're soulbound in a gem that Xykon carries.

[Porthos]

Is it worth noting that Dorukan and Lirian aren't exactly dead? They're soulbound in a gem that Xykon carries.

No, they're still dead (though unresurrectable thanks to being soulbound). They just haven't moved on to whatever plane they would go to upon death.

[137beth]

No, they're still dead (though unresurrectable thanks to being soulbound). They just haven't moved on to whatever plane they would go to upon death.

Quartz is the Oracle in disguise, and has chosen to define "death" as a soul being trapped in the afterlife, in a hopeless attempt to justify Xykon not having "caused the death" of Dorukan or Lirian. His comment is absolute proof he is secretly a kobold oracle!

More seriously, though, Dorukan and Lirian are dead--sould bind can only be cast on a dead creature. Even if we hadn't seen the die, the fact that Xykon was able to bind their souls would prove that they are dead.

[CaDzilla]

Regarding Dorukan, don't we have an upper limit for his level? Assuming that all of those energy drains got him at max damage, that puts his maximum level at 40

[Loreweaver15]

Regarding Dorukan, don't we have an upper limit for his level? Assuming that all of those energy drains got him at max damage, that puts his maximum level at 40

Out of curiosity, isn't level 40 above the "I am functionally God" threshold?

[SaintRidley]

Right. It doesn't say Lemures have telepathy but it also doesn't say that *they don't* have telepathy either, right? No explicit denial of the ability.

Not being listed in the statblock is an explicit denial of the ability.

Just like Qaar doesn't have Gate 5/day - it's not in the statblock.

[SavageWombat]

Tarquin still listed as having Infinite Deflection, I see.

[Loreweaver15]

Tarquin still listed as having Infinite Deflection, I see.

Oh, oh oh! Wait a minute, I haven't got my popcorn!

[zimmerwald1915]

Oh, oh oh! Wait a minute, I haven't got my popcorn!

Here, have some of mine.

[Sylthia]

Can someone explain the 8 dexterity to me? Dwarves don't have a dexterity penalty, do they?

In 2nd ed, they did, but they haven't since then, unless it's some dwarf sub-race.

[vergil]

Okay, perhaps stupid question here, but what was the result of the Wight draining Belkar's level in 515? The Wight's level drain gives Belkar a DC 14 Fortitude save after 24 hours to remove the negative level with no ill effects.

Belkar is listed as having reached 12th level in 249, and both Rangers and Barbarians have good Fortitude saves, so that's a +8 to his save, halflings get a +1 racial bonus, so assuming no bonus to Constitution and no magical items that boost saves he should have had a 75% chance of making his saving throw.

Is it assumed that his level there was drained permanently, or that he made his saving throw offscreen? Or is there some other factor that I'm missing?

[Steven]

Tarquin still listed as having Infinite Deflection, I see.

Since people are eating popcorn....

Is this not simply because it's the only way to explain what he has done by RAW. Since it's the only way to explain it by RAW, we default to that because if we don't then every other possible combination of home-brew is equally as likely.

He could catch them with some gloves, he could catch them with a feat. He catch them with a ring, he could catch them with his teeth.

He could catch them on the ground, he could catch them upside down.

But he couldn't catch them Sam-I-Am, by RAW, without the epic feat.

....

I'll see myself out.