Class and Level Geekery XII - Even Nerds Call Us Nerds

[Techwarrior]

On a completely unrelated subject...

Sabine needs a Strength of at least 20 in order to carry Elan and his gear (2 rapiers, a lute, the belt, and the boots) while flying.

If she is ignoring the 'light load to fly' rule, her Strength must still be at least 13 to do that, as she quite clearly isn't restricted to a 5 ft. step as a full-round action.

Also, I think that scene also qualifies her for Improved Bull Rush.

[ChristianSt]

Your interpretation of the RAW rule is exactly the problem that Shale is describing. The fact that the ability as demonstrated in the comic doesn't match the rule is in fact the "contradiction" you're seemingly ignoring.

Can you post me a single panel where there is something shown that contradicts Infinite Deflection, without arguing "he could have made a smarter/better decision"?

Doing a suboptimal move != rules mismatch.

[Shale]

"I desperately want to keep clinging to the ship, but I am going to let go even though nothing about the ability I am using requires me to do that" goes beyond "suboptimal," is my point. If you can't get that, then we're just talking in circles.

[ChristianSt]

"I desperately want to keep clinging to the ship, but I am going to let go even though nothing about the ability I am using requires me to do that" goes beyond "suboptimal," is my point. If you can't get that, then we're just talking in circles.

So what? It would most likely be much better to catch only 1 arrow with 1 hand and take one to the face instead of doing like he did?

Maybe he wanted to look desperate so that Elan will capture him?

Nothing forced the Ogre in 216 to jump of the cliff. Yet he did. Which was clearly very suicidal, even more so than what Tarquin did.

[Shale]

If his only choices were to take the arrow to the face or catch it, he doesn't have Infinite Deflection.

That's the last thing I'm going to say on this. I've made my point ad nauseam, and it's not going to help anyone to keep going around and around on it.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

"I desperately want to keep clinging to the ship, but I am going to let go even though nothing about the ability I am using requires me to do that" goes beyond "suboptimal," is my point. If you can't get that, then we're just talking in circles.

Shale,

I get what you are saying, and I agree with you that all the evidence in the comic points to the fact that Tarquin only has regular grab arrows, with a houserule that he can use it twice per turn, but needs to have both hands free, and must use each hand once.

But for this thread, that opens a can of worms that they might prefer to keep closed. This is similar to how I agree that Zodar fits MitD, if we allow a houserule to say he looks insectoid rather than the guy in black armour from the official drawings, but for the purposes of the thread we stick with RAW.

Now, I'm not sure if this thread operates under strict "no houserules when RAW" or if you could find a past ruling where RAW existed but was so ludicrous it was rejected. This case is a gray area, where it bugs some that it propels Tarquin to level 21 (it bugs me) and fazes others not at all (Kurald). But while I disagree with the conclusion, I can appreciate that the "no houserules when RAW" is a necessity for the thread, otherwise, everyone will be doing arguments in less-gray areas using this case as their precedent.

Yours,

Grey Wolf

[SavageWombat]

So what? It would most likely be much better to catch only 1 arrow with 1 hand and take one to the face instead of doing like he did?

No, he would have batted both arrows away with one hand and remained clinging to the ship. Face it, RAW does not explain this scene with that feat.

The comic clearly depicts a highly specific ability - the ability to catch up to two arrows, one per free hand. This is the power Rich wants Tarquin to have, to set up the scene with Haley. Saying he could deflect any number of arrows, but chose to (a) fall of an airship and (b) let Miron be shot behind him is more of a stretch then you seem willing to admit.

[Shale]

Grey Wolf, that's the discussion I think we should be having. Not "what's happening in the scene" but "what standard of evidence should we be using." And I think you have a good point, really. It is a grey area, no pun intended.

[zimmerwald1915]

"I desperately want to keep clinging to the ship, but I am going to let go even though nothing about the ability I am using requires me to do that" goes beyond "suboptimal," is my point. If you can't get that, then we're just talking in circles.

Well, if we're going down thhe "nothing requires" route, then nothing requires that Tarquin let go of the airship for the scene to play out as it did. Stripped of all dramatic framing and reduced to spare mechanical actions, here's my reading of how the scene played out.

Bandana sets the ship moving violently, forcing Tarquin to have to make a Reflex save each turn to hang on.
Haley shoots two arrows at Tarquin.
Tarquin catches both arrows.
Tarquin makes a Reflex save to hang on to the side of the airship, albeit not as securely as before.

From Tarquin's point of view, Haley's arrows didn't actually change the actions he needed to take. Deflected or not, caught or not, sooner or later he'd need too make that Reflex save. Being left hanging less securely than before is a reasonable interpretation of having barely succeeded on that save, and would be reasonable no matter if the genesis of the bare success was an additional penalty or a naturally low roll. Catching both of Haley's arrows might or might not have imposed a circumstance penalty to that save, but even if they did such circumstance penalties are normally -2. I don't think "accepting a -2 penalty on a save I'll need to make anyway, and am likely to make given that I've made every saving throw put to me so far" is such a "beyond suboptimal" trade-off for "avoiding potentially 2d8+20d6 of damage." Of course, from Haley's point of view, giving Tarquin a circumstance penalty costs her nothing and shooting at him is extremely satisfying.

[SavageWombat]

Now, I'm not sure if this thread operates under strict "no houserules when RAW" or if you could find a past ruling where RAW existed but was so ludicrous it was rejected. This case is a gray area, where it bugs some that it propels Tarquin to level 21 (it bugs me) and fazes others not at all (Kurald). But while I disagree with the conclusion, I can appreciate that the "no houserules when RAW" is a necessity for the thread, otherwise, everyone will be doing arguments in less-gray areas using this case as their precedent.

The closest example that comes to my mind is the debate over Xykon exact level needed to cast Maximized Energy Drain. Since there was a clear dispute on the point, the forum used the lower bound even though it assumed an unseen magic item or feat not in SRD (iirc). In this case, Tarquin's level is being set at the higher bound solely on the interpretation of one feat that some of us dispute.

[Kalmegil]

Do we have an example of any pure-blooded orc that doesn't used Thog-speech? Therkla is the only one I can think of off the top of my head, but she was half-orc.

GW

Exactly. Which suggests to me that the Giant uses Thog-speech to indicate something other than Int, such as lack of fluency with a second language. Which might suggest that Thog, though also a half-orc, learned orcish first. This, of course, is mere speculation, but I think it's also mere speculation to think that Thog-speech's absence is a sign of a certain minimum Int.

The only in-comic reason we have to think Thog-speech is Int-related is that Thog is dumb, which we know for other reasons, and that he uses Thog-speech. The out-of-comic reason to think it's related requires importing a pretty pernicious attitude, specifically that lack of idiom fluency in a language is a sign of low intelligence.

If you compare what Thog says in Thog speech to what the Orcs on the island say, it's clear most or all of them are smarter than Thog, despite their speech being largely the same. (This is the flip side of Crystal, who is dumber than those orcs, but speaks common better).

[ChristianSt]

No, he would have batted both arrows away with one hand and remained clinging to the ship. Face it, RAW does not explain this scene with that feat.

The comic clearly depicts a highly specific ability - the ability to catch up to two arrows, one per free hand. This is the power Rich wants Tarquin to have, to set up the scene with Haley. Saying he could deflect any number of arrows, but chose to (a) fall of an airship and (b) let Miron be shot behind him is more of a stretch then you seem willing to admit.

And again: while it might certainly be plausible that he has an houseruled feat, nothing you said really matters:

first of all I'm not sure why you boldfaced deflect. I'm not sure if you have a problem with him catching the arrows or not. But that is no problem since with the Snatch Arrow feat he can catch an arrow when deflecting it via Deflect Arrow. With Infinite Deflection he can do this as many times as he wants per round. Without it only once.

to (a): He didn't chose to fall. He did chose to catch the arrows and make it harder to hold onto the ship. Maybe he is just used to catch arrows and doesn't really like to deflect them. As I said maybe he wanted to look a bit more desperate to get captured (which didn't work out). But with those three feats he can clearly choose to catch both arrows.

to (b): Deflect Arrow lists "when you would normally be hit with a ranged weapon, you may deflect". So clearly Tarquin could not deflect any arrow hitting other peoples. Because those arrows didn't hit Tarquin.

If there would actually see a strip where he gets hit by a third arrow, then it would be a far better indication that he doesn't have Infinite Deflection. But since we don't have that, your argumentation is "I find it more likelier that he has some houseruled feat instead of playing RAW and making a suboptimal/bad decision."

Q: Does The Giant use house rules?
Probably. But for the purpose of this thread, we assume that the comic doesn't, except where The Giant has explicitly said so, or where some event is clearly not possible by the rules. That is, we try to explain events in the comic within the rules as much as possible, and that means not leaving factoids out of this thread just because The Giant might not have followed the rules there.

So playing by the thread rules I think it is pretty clear what should be listed, unless you have another RAW explanation OR say how the scenes doesn't work with RAW.

Sure, you can say you don't like those rule and want them to be changed, but then you should say that and not argue about stuff that results from those rules without saying that the rules are the problem.

[Socksy]

Laurin Shattersmith
Evil Human Female, Psion 13+ (To be level drained but still manifest Disintegrate)
Str, Dex, Con ~7 (No evidence, age)
Int 16+ (To manifest Disintegrate)
Wis, Cha ~12 (No evidence, age)
Age: 58+
Items: Headband, Red Ioun Stone, Green Ioun Stone, Orange Ioun Stone
Powers Known: Body Adjustment,
Control Body, Dimension Door, Disintegrate, Dispel Psionics, Specified Energy Adaptation, Mental Disruption, Mind Probe, Telekinetic Force, Unspecified Attack Power, Wormhole

Has Ultrablast been mentioned yet?
And I will eat my hat if a Wormhole big enough to let an entire army through isn't augmented above seventh level.
I still think she's an Elan, if simply for Rule of Funny when someone shouts Elan, trying to get the bard's attention, and she hears, and confusion ensues.

[Shale]

It's not Ultrablast, it's an unnamed homebrew power that Rich eyeballed at sixth level.

[Socksy]

It's not Ultrablast, it's an unnamed homebrew power that Rich eyeballed at sixth level.

Thank you c:
Also, someone needs to dig out the first edition thief rules for Haley's dad for the "Family" section.

[zimmerwald1915]

Thank you c:
Also, someone needs to dig out the first edition thief rules for Haley's dad for the "Family" section.

Why? Even in the comic where Haley mentions it, she uses the verb "was," not "is," implying that Ian is no longer a First-Edition Thief and was upgraded to Third Edition along with [almost] everything else.

[Bird]

Exactly. Which suggests to me that the Giant uses Thog-speech to indicate something other than Int, such as lack of fluency with a second language. Which might suggest that Thog, though also a half-orc, learned orcish first. This, of course, is mere speculation, but I think it's also mere speculation to think that Thog-speech's absence is a sign of a certain minimum Int.

The only in-comic reason we have to think Thog-speech is Int-related is that Thog is dumb, which we know for other reasons, and that he uses Thog-speech. The out-of-comic reason to think it's related requires importing a pretty pernicious attitude, specifically that lack of idiom fluency in a language is a sign of low intelligence.

If you compare what Thog says in Thog speech to what the Orcs on the island say, it's clear most or all of them are smarter than Thog, despite their speech being largely the same. (This is the flip side of Crystal, who is dumber than those orcs, but speaks common better).

Interestingly, there is a mechanical link in D&D between multilingualism and intelligence, because INT bonus = bonus languages. However, there is no objective mechanical link between INT and facility with Common.

I agree that it's reductionist to peg intelligence based on whether someone uses Thog-speak or not. Enor is probably smarter than Thog, and Crystal might be, but we have no firm basis with which to say so.

This is further complicated by the fact that much of the humor of Thog comes from the juxtaposition of his grammar with oddly eloquent, poetic, or modern diction. ("Thog grateful for update on talky-man's relationship status.") He is sort of an idiot genius.

We also seem to set the lower bounds of Elan and Sabine's intelligences based purely on Thog calling them "smart," which I don't understand either.

On a completely unrelated subject...

Sabine needs a Strength of at least 20 in order to carry Elan and his gear (2 rapiers, a lute, the belt, and the boots) while flying.

If she is ignoring the 'light load to fly' rule, her Strength must still be at least 13 to do that, as she quite clearly isn't restricted to a 5 ft. step as a full-round action.

Also, I think that scene also qualifies her for Improved Bull Rush.

She did even better than that when she carried Nale and Thog at the same, when they were escaping from Azure City.

Sabine's strength came up in the last thread, but the issue sputtered out because of the old disagreement about whether to use flight loads as evidence or not.

I will say this: whether you use that evidence or not, there can be no doubt that Sabine is supposed to be extremely strong. A big part of her shtick is lifting/throwing heavy things.

Sticks her arm through a heavily armored soldier, then lifts him one-handed with no evident exertion.

Lifts Roy one-handed, then casually tosses him across the room.

Smashes the TV by swinging or tossing the couch at it.

She is strong.

[Loreweaver15]

Your interpretation of the RAW rule is exactly the problem that Shale is describing. The fact that the ability as demonstrated in the comic doesn't match the rule is in fact the "contradiction" you're seemingly ignoring.

The argument here is that there is nothing else in RAW that will allow Tarquin to do what he does by RAW, which you have been challenged to present an alternative explanation for. Until someone does, the simplest, least-homebrewed explanation is Snatch Arrows plus Infinite Deflection.

People have been up front with you that it doesn't match perfectly, and are perfectly open to alternatives, which they have asked you to provide. Instead of providing alternatives, you just keep saying "can't be that can't be that why aren't you listening to me".

[Shale]

But...the claim is that there isn't a RAW explanation at all. How can you back that up with a RAW explanation?

[zimmerwald1915]

But...the claim is that there isn't a RAW explanation at all.

Then the claim is a bad one. Infinite Deflection + Snatch Arrows can explain Tarquin's actions by RAW, as ChristianSt explained. That Infinite Deflection could have been used alone to deflect the arrows¹ doesn't enter into whether the combination of the two feats can explain what happened or not.

¹If we want to go into houserules territory, there might be something going on where if you have Snatch Arrows you must snatch rather than deflect the arrows you would have deflected. Interestingly, assuming you can only snatch one arrow per hand, this would considerably weaken Infinite Deflection.

[Shale]

Then the claim is a bad one. Infinite Deflection + Snatch Arrows can explain Tarquin's actions by RAW, as ChristianSt explained. That Infinite Deflection could have been used alone to deflect the arrows doesn't enter into whether the combination of the two feats can explain what happened or not.

Yes, I know. That is more or less exactly what I said a page ago. We apparently disagree over whether that scene remains coherent if Tarquin could have blocked both arrows with one hand if he felt like it, but chose not to, and then for some reason suddenly changed his mind again about whether he wanted to hold on to the ship. (And, more to the point, whether that lack of coherence should factor into what's listed in a stat block.)

[SavageWombat]

And Wish spells can be used to explain any magical effect we don't immediately understand (Zz'dtri's green lightning?) but you don't see us rushing to put it on the list.

Infinite Deflection can just barely explain how he performed the trick, if you overlook the incredibly obvious flaws in it's execution. The "but he could if he wants to" argument is weak and specious at best.

Personally, I think the obvious answer is "he has Gloves of Missile Snaring and Rich didn't realize that having two doesn't let you use them twice". But I understand perfectly about not assuming magic items unnecessarily.

No matter how much people keep yammering about RAW, the point is that a sketchy feat suggestion has been used to justify a further level minimum. And that, when the Haley scene demonstrated just how sketchy the suggestion was, forumites refused to revisit the question.

Tarquin should have "undefined ability to snatch two arrows/round", not a feat that does not fit the observed behavior.

And yes, clearly I need to keep returning to this point, because people keep saying "but technically"... at me and refusing to actually discuss the issue.

[hamishspence]

Personally, I think the obvious answer is "he has Gloves of Missile Snaring and Rich didn't realize that having two doesn't let you use them twice". But I understand perfectly about not assuming magic items unnecessarily.

I could see Gloves, like Gauntlets, being the sort of thing that one might expect to be visible- even if it's a bit less obvious- only coloring the hands and wrists differently.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/Incentives.html

[ChristianSt]

Infinite Deflection can just barely explain how he performed the trick, if you overlook the incredibly obvious flaws in it's execution. The "but he could if he wants to" argument is weak and specious at best.

Personally, I think the obvious answer is "he has Gloves of Missile Snaring and Rich didn't realize that having two doesn't let you use them twice". But I understand perfectly about not assuming magic items unnecessarily.

No matter how much people keep yammering about RAW, the point is that a sketchy feat suggestion has been used to justify a further level minimum. And that, when the Haley scene demonstrated just how sketchy the suggestion was, forumites refused to revisit the question.

Tarquin should have "undefined ability to snatch two arrows/round", not a feat that does not fit the observed behavior.

Maybe it is an option which needs a really bad tactical choice from Tarquin, but it still is RAW.

Your proposed alternatives are both houseruled (either ignoring limitations of abilities or requiring a non-existing feat).

So while it certainly isn't the best explanation, it is so far the only RAW explanation we have.

[SavageWombat]

So while it certainly isn't the best explanation, it is so far the only RAW explanation we have.

It is so far from being the best explanation it is in fact a BAD explanation. Like using Wish to explain random spell effects.

In other words, it is better that the listing have no explanation then a bad one that doesn't explain the evidence - and certainly better not to use that bad explanation as "proof" of character level. It should not be on the list.

[Shale]

Can we please take it as read that the choice is between Infinite Deflection and some form of homebrew? Pretty please?

[Taelas]

It is so far from being the best explanation it is in fact a BAD explanation. Like using Wish to explain random spell effects.

Except we don't need to go that far to explain random spell effects.

In other words, it is better that the listing have no explanation then a bad one that doesn't explain the evidence - and certainly better not to use that bad explanation as "proof" of character level. It should not be on the list.

I have never liked Tarquin getting Infinite Deflection, but I have to disagree with you. It's a RAW explanation that satisfies the requirement for the scene.

I don't think it's in any way accurate, and it bugs me that Tarquin is pegged as Epic due to something so utterly ridiculous as him catching two arrows. But the logic is sound.

[CaDzilla]

Theory on Tarquin's arrow catching:

Spoiler

Show

Tarquin's father/mentor was a monk who specialized in catching arrows. Tarquin cut off his father's hands and made the into an artifact that allowed the wearer to catch as many arrows per round as long as their hands were free.

Incidentally, for some reason I think that Tarquin's family name is Arrowcatcher.

[zimmerwald1915]

I don't think it's in any way accurate, and it bugs me that Tarquin is pegged as Epic due to something so utterly ridiculous as him catching two arrows. But the logic is sound.

Most Epic feats, excepting Epic Spellcasting and the Epic Crafting feats, aren't actually that great. The "martials don't get nice things" trope is alive and well beyond level 20.

[SavageWombat]

I don't think it's in any way accurate, and it bugs me that Tarquin is pegged as Epic due to something so utterly ridiculous as him catching two arrows. But the logic is sound.

If you agree it's not accurate, and it causes the Epic problem I describe, then I think you'd support my suggestion that it not be listed.

There is nothing in the thread guidelines that says a suggested explanation MUST be listed unless hard evidence against it is discovered. It's a bad fit - just leave it out.