Class and Level Geekery XII - Even Nerds Call Us Nerds

[zimmerwald1915]

If you agree it's not accurate, and it causes the Epic problem I describe, then I think you'd support my suggestion that it not be listed.

Why do you think it's problematic to have Epic characters in the story besides Xykon and the Order of the Scribble, which by itself is already a pretty big stable of Epic characters? Please provide reasons other than a visceral negative reaction to the word "Epic."

[CaDzilla]

Shouldn't Lirian have Epic Spellcasting? She made the divine half of the gate.
Also, if Tarquin was actually epic level, wouldn`t he showboat it a lot, especially when he's trying to instill a sense of despair into his son?

Haley:Want some?(fires arrows)
Tarquin:MUDAMUDAMUDAMUDAMUDA, your arrows will not pass by me, lowborn trash.

[Shale]

Can't block an arrow that's not going to hit you (at least, not without even more homebrew than I'm already assuming). The arrows Tarquin didn't snag went past him, ergo he could not block them.

[SavageWombat]

Why do you think it's problematic to have Epic characters in the story besides Xykon and the Order of the Scribble, which by itself is already a pretty big stable of Epic characters? Please provide reasons other than a visceral negative reaction to the word "Epic."

1. Restricting the Epic status to just Xykon and the Order of the Scribble puts them in a different league. A special status. Tarquin being in that group makes him - a seemingly one-arc villain - appear to be in that same league. I disagree with this interpretation.

2. I further feel that Rich has deliberately made this distinction with those characters, and that if he wanted us to think Tarquin was in their league, he would indicate so more directly than by giving him an obscure feat.

3. If I'm alone on this forum in having a visceral negative reaction to the ELH (as opposed to the word itself), it surprises me. It perpetuates the idea that characters are ridiculously high-level just because of their importance in the story or world - the people who claim Aragorn must be a 16th level ranger, for example. It leads to people talking about "when V reaches epic level" and the like.

[CaDzilla]

Being Epic level in a story means being able to do something that awes spectators without even trying. Kicking a mountain in half is epic. Destroying a moon is epic. Most things from Toriko are epic. Catching two arrows at a time is just something that you would expect from a guy who can catch arrows. If Arrowcatcher was epic level, he would probably be able to kill all of the armies on the Western continent.

[zimmerwald1915]

1. Restricting the Epic status to just Xykon and the Order of the Scribble puts them in a different league. A special status. Tarquin being in that group makes him - a seemingly one-arc villain - appear to be in that same league. I disagree with this interpretation.

Please distinguish this from the statement "I think Epic should be used as sparingly as possible." Also please explain the discrepency between this feeling of yours and the Giant's statement that there isn't that big a difference in power between characters of the Order's level and low-Epic characters like Girard.

2. I further feel that Rich has deliberately made this distinction with those characters, and that if he wanted us to think Tarquin was in their league, he would indicate so more directly than by giving him an obscure feat.

Please distinguish this statement from your first statement.

Also, please explain away the following story: from the time when Tarquin was first introduced to the fight at the top of the pyramid, everything Tarquin did could have been done equally well by a 1st-level Commoner with a ridiculously outsized wealth. Since that fight, the Giant progressively introduced indications that Tarquin was much higher level. For example, he took three iterative attacks at the top of the pyramid, pegging him as at least level 11 in a full-BAB class, higher if his BAB progression was slower. The Giant then gave Malack an Epic ECL (which Durkon also has now, by the way), providing circumstantial evidence that the rest of the New Western Order are very strong. He then had Miron cast an 8th-level spell, providing even more such circumstantial evidence. He then had Tarquin survive, after having taken a backstab from Haley, a fall comparable to the one Roy didn't survive. He then demonstrated his multiple-arrow catching ability on multiple occasions, more than even two pairs of gloves of arrow snaring would allow. Finally, consider that we have no Epic warrior characters to which to compare Tarquin. He and Roy are pretty much it as far as "warriors at the high end of the level curve" go. To me, this story shows that as time goes on we get shown more and more indications of Tarquin's being very high level. You, apparently, prefer to cherry-pick one indication simply because it appears the most definitive to the thread curators.

Finally, if there is no already-established Epic warrior around against which a non-Epic Tarquin must compare unfavorably (no, Kraagor doesn't count), why should he not be our standard by which Epic warriors are judged?

3. If I'm alone on this forum in having a visceral negative reaction to the ELH (as opposed to the word itself), it surprises me. It perpetuates the idea that characters are ridiculously high-level just because of their importance in the story or world - the people who claim Aragorn must be a 16th level ranger, for example. It leads to people talking about "when V reaches epic level" and the like.

No one has seriously argued for purposes of this thread that Tarquin must be Epic because he is a prominent character, or that world-political leaders must be Epic. Shojo, the 14th-level Aristocrat, stands as a stark counter-example to both. If people want to misinterpret what level means in their own arguments, or even want to misinterpret this thread's first post, that's on them and they can be corrected.

Being Epic level in a story means being able to do something that awes spectators without even trying. Kicking a mountain in half is epic. Destroying a moon is epic. Most things from Toriko are epic. Catching two arrows at a time is just something that you would expect from a guy who can catch arrows. If Arrowcatcher was epic level, he would probably be able to kill all of the armies on the Western continent.

Roy was doing a bang-up job of killing an army without Infinite Deflection or Epic levels. Again, to paraphrase the Giant and to paraphrase Kurald Galain paraphrasing the Giant, being low-Epic does not by itself imply all that much more power than the Order currently possesses. If you think otherwise, take it up with the Giant.

[CaDzilla]

Please distinguish this from the statement "I think Epic should be used as sparingly as possible." Also please explain the discrepency between this feeling of yours and the Giant's statement that there isn't that big a difference in power between characters of the Order's level and low-Epic characters like Girard.


Please distinguish this statement from your first statement.

Also, please explain away the following story: from the time when Tarquin was first introduced to the fight at the top of the pyramid, everything Tarquin did could have been done equally well by a 1st-level Commoner with a ridiculously outsized wealth. Since that fight, the Giant progressively introduced indications that Tarquin was much higher level. For example, he took three iterative attacks at the top of the pyramid, pegging him as at least level 11 in a full-BAB class, higher if his BAB progression was slower. The Giant then gave Malack an Epic ECL (which Durkon also has now, by the way), providing circumstantial evidence that the rest of the New Western Order are very strong. He then had Miron cast an 8th-level spell, providing even more such circumstantial evidence. He then had Tarquin survive, after having taken a backstab from Haley, a fall comparable to the one Roy didn't survive. He then demonstrated his multiple-arrow catching ability on multiple occasions, more than even two pairs of gloves of arrow snaring would allow. Finally, consider that we have no Epic warrior characters to which to compare Tarquin. He and Roy are pretty much it as far as "warriors at the high end of the level curve" go. To me, this story shows that as time goes on we get shown more and more indications of Tarquin's being very high level. You, apparently, prefer to cherry-pick one indication simply because it appears the most definitive to the thread curators.

Finally, if there is no already-established Epic warrior around against which a non-Epic Tarquin must compare unfavorably (no, Kraagor doesn't count), why should he not be our standard by which Epic warriors are judged?


No one has seriously argued for purposes of this thread that Tarquin must be Epic because he is a prominent character, or that world-political leaders must be Epic. Shojo, the 14th-level Aristocrat, stands as a stark counter-example to both. If people want to misinterpret what level means in their own arguments, or even want to misinterpret this thread's first post, that's on them and they can be corrected.

Malack has an ECL of exactly 20, which is close, but not epic. The Giant is saying that these characters on Arrowcatcher's team are just high level. Arrowcatcher also isn't the leader, so he is relatively the same level as these guys. He can survive damage by virtue of fast healing and being a class designed to tank hits.
Shojo got all of his XP by roleplaying a senile, old man and escaping many assassination attempts (probably). He only has experience being a smart guy.

[SavageWombat]

Please distinguish this from the statement "I think Epic should be used as sparingly as possible." Also please explain the discrepency between this feeling of yours and the Giant's statement that there isn't that big a difference in power between characters of the Order's level and low-Epic characters like Girard.

Why should I? Your statement "sparingly as possible" is fine. I don't consider giving Tarquin the status on the basis of one feat is "sparingly". And the fact that the math for ELH doesn't hold up is on the book, not me - they are the ones using a special term for the category.

Please distinguish this statement from your first statement.

Again, why do I need to? Would you rather I make it 1a?

Also, please explain away the following story: from the time when Tarquin was first introduced to the fight at the top of the pyramid, everything Tarquin did could have been done equally well by a 1st-level Commoner with a ridiculously outsized wealth. Since that fight, the Giant progressively introduced indications that Tarquin was much higher level. For example, he took three iterative attacks at the top of the pyramid, pegging him as at least level 11 in a full-BAB class, higher if his BAB progression was slower. The Giant then gave Malack an Epic ECL (which Durkon also has now, by the way), providing circumstantial evidence that the rest of the New Western Order are very strong. He then had Miron cast an 8th-level spell, providing even more such circumstantial evidence. He then had Tarquin survive, after having taken a backstab from Haley, a fall comparable to the one Roy didn't survive. He then demonstrated his multiple-arrow catching ability on multiple occasions, more than even two pairs of gloves of arrow snaring would allow. Finally, consider that we have no Epic warrior characters to which to compare Tarquin. He and Roy are pretty much it as far as "warriors at the high end of the level curve" go. To me, this story shows that as time goes on we get shown more and more indications of Tarquin's being very high level. You, apparently, prefer to cherry-pick one indication simply because it appears the most definitive to the thread curators.

You, apparently, feel that the definition of a high-level character somehow precludes him being in the 18-20th level range - or at least you're arguing strongly with me about it.

I'm not cherry-picking anything. I'm specifically saying that no evidence of anything Tarquin has done yet precludes him being in the 18-20th level range, and that the mistake is in assigning him 21+ on the basis of one feat, and the gut feeling of forumites that he "must be" epic level.

Finally, if there is no already-established Epic warrior around against which a non-Epic Tarquin must compare unfavorably (no, Kraagor doesn't count), why should he not be our standard by which Epic warriors are judged?

Why should he be? If there's no evidence to assume so, why leap to the point?

No one has seriously argued for purposes of this thread that Tarquin must be Epic because he is a prominent character, or that world-political leaders must be Epic. Shojo, the 14th-level Aristocrat, stands as a stark counter-example to both. If people want to misinterpret what level means in their own arguments, or even want to misinterpret this thread's first post, that's on them and they can be corrected.

"Seriously argued" sounds like a no True Scotsman argument. I feel like the point has been made repeatedly. Just because you don't support that particular belief doesn't mean it hasn't been expressed. And I'm not talking about political power - just the perception that Tarquin is "so kewl" that he MUST be Epic.

tl:dr - This post seems to argue that there's no reason Tarquin can't be epic level. I am not arguing that he can't - I'm arguing that there is no good evidence that he is, by the normal standards of the forum thread. And since I am admittedly biased on the issue, I don't like seeing a poor argument handwaved through without discussion.

[zimmerwald1915]

Malack has an ECL of exactly 20, which is close, but not epic.

You might want to recount that. Malack gets 2 humanoid hit dice and 1 level adjustment from being a lizardfolk (this assumes he is a lizardfolk, but it shouldn't matter; any of the other plausible options give him more total RHD and LA). He gets 12 cleric hit dice from, well, being a 12th-level cleric. Finally, he gets 8 level adjustment from being a vampire. 2 racial hit dice + 12 class hit dice + 9 level adjustment = ECL 23. That's a firmly Epic ECL.

The Giant is saying that these characters on Arrowcatcher's team are just high level. Arrowcatcher also isn't the leader, so he is relatively the same level as these guys. He can survive damage by virtue of fast healing and being a class designed to tank hits.

I did say this was circumstantial evidence, yes? How does rephrasing that statement using more, less clear, words constitute a response to my statement?

Shojo got all of his XP by roleplaying a senile, old man and escaping many assassination attempts (probably). He only has experience being a smart guy.

What bearing does this have on anything? First, you have no reason to claim you know where Shojo got his levels. Second, the point I was making against SavageWombat was that any claim that Tarquin is Epic based on his political or story status is, as Shojo shows, specious on its face and doesn't deserve even passing consideration.

[SavageWombat]

You might want to recount that. Malack gets 2 humanoid hit dice and 1 level adjustment from being a lizardfolk (this assumes he is a lizardfolk, but it shouldn't matter; any of the other plausible options give him more total RHD and LA). He gets 12 cleric hit dice from, well, being a 12th-level cleric. Finally, he gets 8 level adjustment from being a vampire. 2 racial hit dice + 12 class hit dice + 9 level adjustment = ECL 23. That's a firmly Epic ECL.

And I think the rest of the arguments have decided, again and again, that one party member's level does not provide evidence for other party member's level. Malack can have all the ECL he wants, it doesn't prove Tarquin's.

You're asking people to provide evidence against Tarquin being Epic, when the question is actually if there is any evidence for it. Other than, "Wow, he sure kicked Roy's butt".

[zimmerwald1915]

Why should I? Your statement "sparingly as possible" is fine. I don't consider giving Tarquin the status on the basis of one feat is "sparingly". And the fact that the math for ELH doesn't hold up is on the book, not me - they are the ones using a special term for the category.

Because it's not distinguishable from "I don't like Epic." You're putting forward your personal aesthetic preferences (whether there's a silent majority backing you or not is irrelevant) and demanding that not only should the curators run the thread by them, but ultimately that the Giant cater to them in his story. I see no reason to credit this demand.

Again, why do I need to? Would you rather I make it 1a?

Kinda, yeah. Repeating the same point twice and pretending they're different doesn't add anything to the discussion.

You, apparently, feel that the definition of a high-level character somehow precludes him being in the 18-20th level range - or at least you're arguing strongly with me about it.

Can I take that strawman with me to Oz? The story I told was of an ever-growing accumulation of evidence of various kinds and strengths pointing towards an Epic Tarquin, of which the one listed in the first post is only the most applicable to the standards of this thread. Dismissing in-comic evidence that doesn't meet the incredibly strict standards of this thread (which all but amount at this point to "a character must look at the camera and say 'I have x feat or y class ability'") as irrelevant or a gut feeling among forumites is cherry-picking.

Why should he be? If there's no evidence to assume so, why leap to the point?

What about "there was mounting evidence released in comic over the course of years" screams "leap" to you?

"Seriously argued" sounds like a no True Scotsman argument. I feel like the point has been made repeatedly. Just because you don't support that particular belief doesn't mean it hasn't been expressed. And I'm not talking about political power - just the perception that Tarquin is "so kewl" that he MUST be Epic.

A serious argument is distinguishable by its tone, the gravity with which it treats evidence over personal bias or aesthetic preference, and its germane-ness to the topic being discussed. An argument that "Tarquin must be Epic because he is kewl" is not serious on its face and deserves address only to the extent that it must be debunked. So is an argument that "Tarquin must not be Epic because he isn't kewl enough."

[zimmerwald1915]

And I think the rest of the arguments have decided, again and again, that one party member's level does not provide evidence for other party member's level. Malack can have all the ECL he wants, it doesn't prove Tarquin's.

What about "it's circumstantial evidence" don't you understand? I shouldn't need to point out that circumstantial evidence isn't dispositive every time I say the phrase. That is built into the definition.

[Crusher]

I'm loath to step in here, but I think GreyWolf's point is worth reiterating:

The way this thread works is that it finds explanations by RAW for things that happen in the strip. Where there are multiple potential explanations, a RAW interpretation is going to always trump a home-brewed explanation or other undefined explanation.

- Infinite Deflection is an explanation by RAW.

Unless we have another explanation by RAW, and afaik we do not, this answer has to stand. Its really that simple.

[SavageWombat]

Because it's not distinguishable from "I don't like Epic." You're putting forward your personal aesthetic preferences (whether there's a silent majority backing you or not is irrelevant) and demanding that not only should the curators run the thread by them, but ultimately that the Giant cater to them in his story. I see no reason to credit this demand.

So you also see no reason to support an aesthetic preference FOR him being epic? That the only reason to make a ruling is based on evidence? That's what I'm for. My feelings on Epic are an explanation of my passion, not the case I am arguing.

Kinda, yeah. Repeating the same point twice and pretending they're different doesn't add anything to the discussion.

Pot, this is Kettle. Kettle, Pot.

Can I take that strawman with me to Oz? The story I told was of an ever-growing accumulation of evidence of various kinds and strengths pointing towards an Epic Tarquin, of which the one listed in the first post is only the most applicable to the standards of this thread. Dismissing in-comic evidence that doesn't meet the incredibly strict standards of this thread (which all but amount at this point to "a character must look at the camera and say 'I have x feat or y class ability'") as irrelevant or a gut feeling among forumites is cherry-picking.

The story you told was an accumulation of evidence of a high-level Tarquin. Higher level than Roy. Possibly the highest level fighter we've met. Nothing about that requires him to be epic - and as you like to refer to the Giant as saying, there's not a lot of difference between Roy and Tarquin's power level.

What about "there was mounting evidence released in comic over the course of years" screams "leap" to you?

Again, what evidence? Especially by the standards of this thread? Has he even been proven to have a number of feats outside the norm, or a Wealth-by-Level excess? The only proof of his actual level ever discussed was this one erroneous feat.

What about "it's circumstantial evidence" don't you understand? I shouldn't need to point out that circumstantial evidence isn't dispositive every time I say the phrase. That is built into the definition.

Circumstantial evidence is any evidence that is not direct testimony. That's all it means. It certainly doesn't support or rebut your argument.

I think you mean "a large pile of small clues" which you think adds up to an Epic conclusion. But from all the other arguments I read on this thread, that's not relevant here. The assigned stats for characters, for example, would look a lot different if the readership's "overall impression" of someone's stats had any weight.

To reiterate position:

I don't believe Tarquin has demonstrated the feat "Infinite Deflection". I think it should be removed from the list. Since his level of 21+ is justified solely by his possession of the feat, it should be removed as well.

What point are you arguing, apart from "I think Tarquin IS TOO Epic level?"

[CaDzilla]

Soon is the best example I can think of for an epic level warrior. He was formally introduced in a move that surprised Xykon. He was pretty much what you would expect from an epic level paladin. Arrowcatcher, a man obsessed with the dramatic, was supposedly introduced as epic by catching two arrows and not saying anything.

[RMS Oceanic]

Soon is the best example I can think of for an epic level warrior. He was formally introduced in a move that surprised Xykon. He was pretty much what you would expect from an epic level paladin. Arrowcatcher, a man obsessed with the dramatic, was supposedly introduced as epic by catching two arrows and not saying anything.

The single most impressive toy I can think for an epic non-magical character is that feat that extends your lifespan. Soon was impressive, but as seen by the Army of Ghosts that's not bound to being Epic, otherwise they wouldn't have manifested. Unfortunately the extra-ordinary benefits of being epic are mostly the magic stuff. I can think of epic Fighter feats that grant abilities that newer classes can obtain before level five. The effect of Infinite Deflection isn't one.

[SavageWombat]

Spoilered out because now I'm just nitpicking.

Spoiler

Show

For example, he took three iterative attacks at the top of the pyramid, pegging him as at least level 11 in a full-BAB class, higher if his BAB progression was slower.

Which proves that he's at least 11th level. What's your point?

The Giant then gave Malack an Epic ECL (which Durkon also has now, by the way), providing circumstantial evidence that the rest of the New Western Order are very strong.

Which proves that he's high level. What's your point?

He then had Miron cast an 8th-level spell, providing even more such circumstantial evidence.

Which proves that he has a friend who's at least 17th level. Again, what's your point?

He then had Tarquin survive, after having taken a backstab from Haley, a fall comparable to the one Roy didn't survive.

Roy had taken a Meteor Swarm to the face before taking the fall. High level fighters surviving 20d6 falling damage surprises no one.

He then demonstrated his multiple-arrow catching ability on multiple occasions, more than even two pairs of gloves of arrow snaring would allow.

Two arrows ever, only. It's an important plot point. Haley's "Tarquin - Catch" line is a payoff to that sequence - that she knows that he has to use two hands to catch two of her arrows. She's deliberately using her brain and triumphing over his limitations. Implying otherwise reduces Haley's agency in this scene to having gotten lucky because Tarquin screwed up.

Nothing you are proposing says anything other than that Tarquin is higher level than a 16th level fighter (Roy).

[CaDzilla]

The single most impressive toy I can think for an epic non-magical character is that feat that extends your lifespan. Soon was impressive, but as seen by the Army of Ghosts that's not bound to being Epic, otherwise they wouldn't have manifested. Unfortunately the extra-ordinary benefits of being epic are mostly the magic stuff. I can think of epic Fighter feats that grant abilities that newer classes can obtain before level five. The effect of Infinite Deflection isn't one.

Feats are not the only benefit to being epic. Skills of Martial characters at epic level are almost indistinguishable from magic (i.e-become effectively intangible, disassemble a person's weapon as a free action, etc.)

[ChristianSt]

So should we add th rule: "If someone feels like a specific level isn't justified, then it cannot be listed?"

Then from what I read here you have not really a problem with him having a certain feat, but that that feat is tied to specific prerequisite (i.e. epic), that you think is "too special" for Tarquin?

Because that is kinda the main argument I can locate in your posts.


Unless you present a RAW alternative or say the thread rules need to be changed (I don't think so - because without hard boundaries this thread would probably just end in people arguing about what feels better), I think there is nothing left to discuss.

[Techwarrior]

She did even better than that when she carried Nale and Thog at the same, when they were escaping from Azure City.

Sabine's strength came up in the last thread, but the issue sputtered out because of the old disagreement about whether to use flight loads as evidence or not.

I will say this: whether you use that evidence or not, there can be no doubt that Sabine is supposed to be extremely strong. A big part of her shtick is lifting/throwing heavy things.

Sticks her arm through a heavily armored soldier, then lifts him one-handed with no evident exertion.

Lifts Roy one-handed, then casually tosses him across the room.

Smashes the TV by swinging or tossing the couch at it.

She is strong.

Right. But currently we have no info listed for her. (I was the one who brought it up, though it might have been thread before last) I'm willing to accept listing it without the fly in light load rule, so long as we list something.

Thog and Nale do make a better example though. Base weight of the two totaled is 278 lbs. For her to carry them, she needs

• 18 as a heavy load
• 26 as a light load
• 21 as a medium

[Crusher]

Let's set aside the flying encumbrance one just for a moment. It is where we'll get the highest numbers but it also has some contention so let start with the standing stuff first and work our way up. If the standing stuff says 16 min or whatever, that's at least an improvement over nothing. We can set higher sights after that.

The arm through the chest and lift seems like the most impressive. But is there an argument that he's bouncing away in shock or something so it's not really a clean lift?

[JustWantedToSay]

Right. But currently we have no info listed for her. (I was the one who brought it up, though it might have been thread before last) I'm willing to accept listing it without the fly in light load rule, so long as we list something.

Thog and Nale do make a better example though. Base weight of the two totaled is 278 lbs. For her to carry them, she needs

• 18 as a heavy load
• 26 as a light load
• 21 as a medium

Nale is ~180 pounds (wanted poster), + 154 for base-orc = 334. So 19 str mimimum.

ETA:

4./ Again in Races of Faerun, there is a feat called Outsider Wings, which states that they "allow you to fly at your land speed (average maneuverabilty). A medium or heavy load that would reduce your land speed reduces your flying speed by a proportionate amount."

Read more: http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthr...#ixzz2sy4RduZF

[SavageWombat]

So should we add th rule: "If someone feels like a specific level isn't justified, then it cannot be listed?"

Then from what I read here you have not really a problem with him having a certain feat, but that that feat is tied to specific prerequisite (i.e. epic), that you think is "too special" for Tarquin?

Because that is kinda the main argument I can locate in your posts.


Unless you present a RAW alternative or say the thread rules need to be changed (I don't think so - because without hard boundaries this thread would probably just end in people arguing about what feels better), I think there is nothing left to discuss.

Nice try, but no.

I object to the feat because I don't think he legitimately has it - and that the feat is the ONLY REASON the thread has for setting his level at 21+.

And stop harping on "RAW alternative" - I don't have to suggest another way he could have done it. My position is that the feat you support does not adequately describe what is shown in the comic.

It is better to not list something at all than to list something that cannot be supported. This rule is followed in every other instance. It's fairly obvious that Roy's armor should be a breastplate, for example, but we don't put that down because we don't know for sure.

Tarquin has a feat or magical item that lets him catch two, and only two, projectiles. That is not how Infinite Deflection works - therefore the feat is not Infinite Deflection. And therefore shouldn't be listed.

[ChristianSt]

Tarquin has a feat or magical item that lets him catch two, and only two, projectiles. That is not how Infinite Deflection works - therefore the feat is not Infinite Deflection. And therefore shouldn't be listed.

So because Tarquin only deflects two out of two arrows (he never even gets hit with more than two!), that is proof that it can't be Infinite Deflection, because that can only be used to deflect a non-finite amount of arrows?

[Loreweaver15]

I present to you the situation:

1. Tarquin did a thing.

2. He did this thing on-panel multiple times.

3. We know of exactly one possible method he could have used to do the thing without homebrewing.

4. It is literally impossible for him to have done the thing without either that method or homebrewing.

Number 4 there is the operative bit in this argument. Tarquin did a thing, and to do that thing he must have some prerequisite, of which there is exactly one possibility without breaking the rules of the thread. Therefore, until confirmed otherwise, Tarquin must have the prerequisite.

Therefore, the burden of proof has shifted to the opposition, i.e. you.

[SavageWombat]

So because Tarquin only deflects two out of two arrows (he never even gets hit with more than two!), that is proof that it can't be Infinite Deflection, because that can only be used to deflect a non-finite amount of arrows?

This strikes me as deliberately obtuse. Let me clarify for you.

Rich has deliberately chosen to portray Tarquin as, when attacked with arrows, catching (not deflecting) two arrows. One in each hand. Every time.

Rich then gave us a scene where Haley deliberately exploits this behavior by shooting two arrows at him, forcing him to release his grip with both hands in order to catch them.

The feat (or magic item) is demonstrably the ability to catch one arrow in each hand. I refuse to believe that Rich is even implying that Tarquin had the option to deflect the arrows with one hand, but chose not to or screwed up. Haley forced the issue on him, which is one more reason Haley is awesome.

Ergo: Tarquin does not have Infinite Deflection, he has the ability to catch one arrow in each hand.

Ergo: Infinite Deflection does not describe the behavior shown in the strip, even from a "he could have if he'd wanted to" standpoint. It's not a best fit by RAW, it's no fit at all.

Ergo: It should not be listed.

Regardless of your opinion of my opinion, I am presenting a logical argument, not an emotional one.

[SavageWombat]

I present to you the situation:

1. Tarquin did a thing.

2. He did this thing on-panel multiple times.

3. We know of exactly one possible method he could have used to do the thing without homebrewing.

4. It is literally impossible for him to have done the thing without either that method or homebrewing.

Number 4 there is the operative bit in this argument. Tarquin did a thing, and to do that thing he must have some prerequisite, of which there is exactly one possibility without breaking the rules of the thread. Therefore, until confirmed otherwise, Tarquin must have the prerequisite.

Therefore, the burden of proof has shifted to the opposition, i.e. you.

3 is where your argument falls down. I am claiming that the "one possible method" is not actually a possible method because it does not describe what we saw.

I do not need to propose a RAW alternative - I'm saying I don't think there is one. I am saying that Tarquin having that feat is undermined or contraindicated, and therefore should not be included in the official listing without actual support.

It's like the bit with Occam's Razor - just because something is "the simplest explanation remaining" doesn't mean it's the correct one if it doesn't explain all the facts.

[137beth]

It's not Ultrablast, it's an unnamed homebrew power that Rich eyeballed at sixth level.

I hope this doesn't get lost amid arguments over Tarquin.

[orrion]

It's not Ultrablast, it's an unnamed homebrew power that Rich eyeballed at sixth level.

I hope this doesn't get lost amid arguments over Tarquin.

I read that as Rich saying his own ability to "Make It Up and Call It a Day" is 6th level.

[Bird]

Right. But currently we have no info listed for her. (I was the one who brought it up, though it might have been thread before last) I'm willing to accept listing it without the fly in light load rule, so long as we list something.

Thog and Nale do make a better example though. Base weight of the two totaled is 278 lbs. For her to carry them, she needs

• 18 as a heavy load
• 26 as a light load
• 21 as a medium

My mistake -- I forgot who said what. I agree with you that I'd be willing to ignore flight loads for the moment as long as we list something.

As JustWantedToSay points out above, we have a weight for Nale, so the figures can be bumped up from that.

Let's set aside the flying encumbrance one just for a moment. It is where we'll get the highest numbers but it also has some contention so let start with the standing stuff first and work our way up. If the standing stuff says 16 min or whatever, that's at least an improvement over nothing. We can set higher sights after that.

The arm through the chest and lift seems like the most impressive. But is there an argument that he's bouncing away in shock or something so it's not really a clean lift?

I'd tend to reject that interpretation, because
(1) Bouncing several vertical feet seems like an odd reaction to a hand through your chest, to me.
(2)Even if he did "help" her with the lift, she's rearing back and clearly supporting him on her own.
(3)The fact that she lifts Roy above her head one-handed with no help and no evident strain suggests that she is capable of doing likewise with the guard.

You can lift up to your max load above your head. Assuming minimum weight for an adult human for the guard (124) and the lightest heavy armor (35), that's 159, which gives her a minimum of 14 STR.

Note: I realize that he isn't 100% above her head, but is there any disagreement that if you can lift something that high one-handed, you can get it all the way over your head with two? (Realistically, lifting something at that angle one-handed is much more difficult than a two handed above-the-head lift.)

*

Another thing -- if we prefer to calculate based on Roy's weight, can we do better? We know that he is "big" because Ian refers to him as such. Is that enough to peg him as being of at least average weight for a male human? If so, average weight of 175 + 30 lb breastplate = 205 lbs = 16 STR min for Sabine.