Kill la Kill: The first life fiber is what?!

[Terraoblivion]

Wait I don't find the cool guy designs sexual? I mean cripes just because I'm hetero-normative doesn't mean I don't recognize a phallic symbol when I see one. And most of them do have some nice chests.

Though on average while they do go topless more the outfits do show less skin. For that and the whole hetero-male thing I tend to not like looking at them as much.

So you're capable of finding a design cool or appealing without being sexually attractive. As long as it's for the gender you're not attracted to, for the one you are it has to be sexualized. You know, some people just might call that a major double standard.

Sexulaity in men has placed less emphasis on appearence (though I can't recall a non-handsome prince/knight/etc) and more on other areas where men are expect to go out and physically perform. Which they are more capable at on the whole, and more expendable for that matter, which is a matter of biology.flood.

No, that's how men like to see themselves. Seriously read some BL or slash fic or trashy Harlequinn romance or similar. You'll find that the appearance of the men gets quite a bit of attention when women write sexual fantasies. It's just that most works encountered by people who don't actively seek out female sexual fantasies are written for a male-oriented public, where looking at how a woman is sexually attractive is more accepted than how a man is.

[Tengu_temp]

Sidenote: if you want this thread to be a discussion about KLK, not an argument between those who like it and those who hate it, then respond to posts by the latter with "okay, you don't like this show, gotcha. It's your right. I know it's problematic, but I still like it" or something like that. Then the argument dies, people lose interest, and you are free to talk about the latest episode in peace.
Heating the fire, on the other hand, has an opposite effect.

[Terraoblivion]

So now your victim blaming? Your saying that us fans of the show should just let people call the sexist and be shamed and if they respond it is there fault for feeding the flames?

Nobody has said that liking the show is a sexist act. It's insisting that it doesn't have problematic gender presentation and the arguments for why it's really empowering or subversive or whatever that are sexist. As such, appreciation of Kill la Kill only becomes sexist when you start defending it, rather than simply liking it despite the problematic aspects. Because like Tengu says, everybody likes some problematic stuff.

[Dragonus45]

Sidenote: if you want this thread to be a discussion about KLK, not an argument between those who like it and those who hate it, then respond to posts by the latter with "okay, you don't like this show, gotcha. It's your right. I know it's problematic, but I still like it" or something like that. Then the argument dies, people lose interest, and you are free to talk about the latest episode in peace.
Heating the fire, on the other hand, has an opposite effect.

So now your victim blaming? Your saying that us fans of the show should just let people call the sexist and be shamed and if they respond it is there fault for feeding the flames?

Nobody has said that liking the show is a sexist act. It's insisting that it doesn't have problematic gender presentation and the arguments for why it's really empowering or subversive or whatever that are sexist. As such, appreciation of Kill la Kill only becomes sexist when you start defending it, rather than simply liking it despite the problematic aspects. Because like Tengu says, everybody likes some problematic stuff.

When someone declares a show a stinking pile of sexist **** they are going well and beyond simple criticism and shaming the people who say they do like the show. Plus its only problematic if you ascribe to a specific view of the world so that's not even an excuse.

[Rosstin]

I'm curious about this show. Some of my friends watch it, and I'm a fan of other works by the same studio/members like Gurren Lagann.

What is the appeal of this show? I've seen an episode or two (not enough to form a real opinion) and I can't figure it out. Is it over-the-top silly? Does it have real characters? Is it all about fanservice? I can't pin it down.

I guess in some ways that reminds me of Gurren, but somehow this show seems to make even less sense.

Not slamming it; if I understand the appeal (and probably knuckle down and watch the first 3-4 episodes) maybe I'd really like it.

[Soras Teva Gee]

So you're capable of finding a design cool or appealing without being sexually attractive.

Nope actually I would characterize myself as completely incapable.

What I like best is the raw human body in idealized (though not excessive) form. Consequently I find those outfits that show it off the most visually appealing. Now biologically it comes in two basic and varieties hoowever showing it off... always a good idea.

I suppose there's the empathy/envy toward the male over attraction to the female... but that's two sides of the same coin because it all breaks down to sex as a basic impulse.

[Hiro Protagonest]

I'm curious about this show. Some of my friends watch it, and I'm a fan of other works by the same studio/members like Gurren Lagann.

What is the appeal of this show? I've seen an episode or two (not enough to form a real opinion) and I can't figure it out. Is it over-the-top silly? Does it have real characters? Is it all about fanservice? I can't pin it down.

I guess in some ways that reminds me of Gurren, but somehow this show seems to make even less sense.

Not slamming it; if I understand the appeal (and probably knuckle down and watch the first 3-4 episodes) maybe I'd really like it.

I think BRC put it best:

I would describe KlK as Pastiche wearing a hat that says "Parody". There's no satire involved. It's aware of how ridiculous it is, and there seems to be a slight air of mockery.

It's not really saying anything about sexualization in terms of character design. It's saying that it happens, and producing extreme examples, but there's no commentary.

It's similar to what they did in TTGL, but the subject matter in TTGL (Giant Robots and HOT BLOODED DETERMINATION) were at most annoying and mildly stupid.
KlK's target (Overly sexualized costumes) is problematic, so simply pushing the tropes to extremes creates something occasionally disturbing, rather than goofy.

[Terraoblivion]

If its bad when everyone does it why are all your examples male creepers and female creepees, also since you are a self proclaimed feminist i assumed you were just following the party line about all men being helpless lust zombies. Also its not "mostly men doing it to women" try being a guy at any sporting even ever and hearing some of the things women call out to you.

The examples mostly used that gender setup is because it's the setup presented in the show. And because going by everything I've heard from men and women, feminists and anti-feminists it's by far the more common setup.

As for the feminist party line being that men are all lust zombies. Either you ran into one of the more essentialist branches of second wave feminism, like the one created by Luce Irigaray and her idea of phallomorph and vaginomorph language and world views, the person in question had a shaky grasp of the topic or you didn't get what they were saying. It is, in fact, not feminism to consider all men driven by lust. Other than some, mostly extinct, branches of second wave feminism that kind of gender essentialism is anathema to feminism.

[Rosstin]

Reading over the thread, it seems like the show is getting as much hate as love, so maybe I'm best off giving it a miss.

On feminism: If you think that feminism means "anti-men" then you don't understand feminism. Man-hating feminists are extremely rare and really just a straw-man created by their opponents. You can see this in the earliest anti-feminist cartoons where they depict feminists as ugly hags who hate men.

Feminism is about equality.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Reading over the thread, it seems like the show is getting as much hate as love, so maybe I'm best off giving it a miss.

If you want anime with over-the-top action, there's a lot of less controversial stuff.

Especially considering that the animation style of the fights themselves is controversial.

[Dragonus45]

If you want anime with over-the-top action, there's a lot of less controversial stuff.

Especially considering that the animation style of the fights themselves is controversial.

I would say that if you like the oldschool anime style with lots of still pictures and strange angles then the animation is fine.

[Terraoblivion]

I would say that if you like the oldschool anime style with lots of still pictures and strange angles then the animation is fine.

Which is to say anime produced on a shoestring budget so shortcuts had to be made. It isn't really a stylistic issue to use lots of still pictures, it was and is a matter of how many animators and how long production cycles you can afford. You can add stylistic embellishments to make it look nice despite the technical shortcomings brought on by a poor budget, but the shortcomings are still there creating kinda bad animation, though the art might be good. Personally I don't think that's the case here, but it's a minor issue and partly a matter of personal taste.

[Flickerdart]

The reason I like the show is very simple.

When watching the first episode, I thought to myself "okay, so this is an anime that goes like other animes." Then I thought "wait, what?" Then I thought "WAIT, WHAT?" The first few episodes are a consistent ramp-up of "I have no idea what's happening but I'll be damned if I don't want to find out" and then you do gradually find out and it works out to be pretty awesome.

Sexualization? Eh, I don't think the show would be any less good without it. If cartoonish floppy nipple-less breasts with flying lights around them every couple of episodes are what gets you off then good for you.

[Soras Teva Gee]

Reading over the thread, it seems like the show is getting as much hate as love, so maybe I'm best off giving it a miss.

I've heard nothing but praise before this thread.

I'd can make it as simple as this: you in the camp that considers fanservice a problem in anime in general?

Yes or no the show does nothing that any number of other shows don't on this front. One can quibble on specifics but that's the bottom line, there probably aren't going to be uncensored DVDs but well you'll be seeing lots of fanservice besides.

If fanservice doesn't bother you (or *gasp* you like it you dirty heretic) then you have... Gurren Lagann meets Tenjou Tenge.

And if your looking for that tricksome concept of "substance" your in the wrong place on both fronts.

If your looking for the equally tricksome concept of "awesome" you're in the right place on both fronts.

[Terraoblivion]

If your looking for the equally tricksome concept of "awesome" you're in the right place on both fronts.

For a very subjective value of awesome. Mostly it's going for the same kind of awesome as TTGL, not that I personally found TTGL awesome but I know what people mean when they say it is, while doing it on a far tighter budget and cranks up the absurdity to compensate. I personally don't think they have the same creativity or energy to either the animation or the designs, the non-sexualized ones I mean, but some people clearly do.

[Hiro Protagonest]

I've heard nothing but praise before this thread.

I've been in the General Anime/Manga thread, and my experience must be different from yours.

[Jayngfet]

So you're capable of finding a design cool or appealing without being sexually attractive. As long as it's for the gender you're not attracted to, for the one you are it has to be sexualized. You know, some people just might call that a major double standard.

Honestly I think we're missing the major point to most of the male character designs if we don't think they're sexualized to hell and back as often as the female ones.

Every other suit Gamagoori wears contains a ball gag and leather BDSM harness. Inamuta's first transformation is almost literally just a palette swap of Asuka's most revealing plugsuit, and he wears it shamelessly instead of covering up like she does. Mikisuki strips down to nothing and puts his gun holster in his crotch, then has is butthole glow bright pink every time he turns around. During the school trip arc the ballplayers wear only the pads and go almost naked otherwise.

Every costuming choice in Kill la Kill is obviously very carefully crafted to inform you about the characters involved. The BDSM equipment is there because Gamagoori is all about restraint and service to his superior. The shameless plugsuit compliments a character who is totally shameless and doesn't hide it. Heck, even Senketsu and Junketsu are obviously carefully placed and chosen for a reason, in addition to the sheer absurdity of them.

Kill la Kill is as much an exersize in symbolism as it is anything else. Characters will often break the flow of the plot to wax philisophical about why certain clothes are the way they are and why the systems with real life equivalents work the way they do, talking right to the camera. It's not just absurdity for the sake of absurdity, as some people seem to think.

[Terraoblivion]

Sexual isn't the same as sexualized. For example, an old, married couple having boring sex with each other with their socks on is sexual, regardless of how its portrayed. Sexualized is when something is done up to be sexually appealing and stimulating. You could sexualized such asexual acts as assembling a piece of Ikea furniture or blowing your nose, just like you could have an on-screen blowjob that's cringeworthy rather than hot. Sexualization is about how something is framed, not about whether it's related to sex or not. Sexualization is what makes the difference between a vacation picture of a group at the beach and a fanservice beach episode.

I feel pretty confident in saying that the way Gamagoori's uniform is shown we're not supposed to find it hot. Just like Stripper-sensei seems to be framed as more off-putting than anything else, given how Mako find him weird and Ryuko finds him highly uncomfortable. He pulls a lot of acts of uncomfortable closeness to both other characters and the camera as well. The ballplayers are a mix of comedy and signifying weakness and defeat once their equipment is stripped from them, along perhaps with a hint of the exoticizing sexualization that black men specifically get subjected to.

[Jayngfet]

Sexual isn't the same as sexualized. For example, an old, married couple having boring sex with each other with their socks on is sexual, regardless of how its portrayed. Sexualized is when something is done up to be sexually appealing and stimulating. You could sexualized such asexual acts as assembling a piece of Ikea furniture or blowing your nose, just like you could have an on-screen blowjob that's cringeworthy rather than hot. Sexualization is about how something is framed, not about whether it's related to sex or not. Sexualization is what makes the difference between a vacation picture of a group at the beach and a fanservice beach episode.

I feel pretty confident in saying that the way Gamagoori's uniform is shown we're not supposed to find it hot. Just like Stripper-sensei seems to be framed as more off-putting than anything else, given how Mako find him weird and Ryuko finds him highly uncomfortable. He pulls a lot of acts of uncomfortable closeness to both other characters and the camera as well. The ballplayers are a mix of comedy and signifying weakness and defeat once their equipment is stripped from them, along perhaps with a hint of the exoticizing sexualization that black men specifically get subjected to.

...which is also the point.

Animation is a precision medium, not a single part of a single frame appears unless it's intended to because every element on screen can be directly controlled and manipulated.

So why is it that Ryuko changes proportions when not wearing the uniform? She becomes a mostly flat, cartoony, big headed almost chibi when she's just loafing around in her PJ's most of the time. Why does Satsuki insist there's nothing sexual about donning a sexy wedding dress and high heels and getting oogled by everyone in the area? I mean, most of her character arc has been about showing she's an emotional basket case with a list of issues as long as your arm, so it's obvious her character isn't just being quirky or that she's actually enjoying it. Why do a list of dozens of elements make it obvious that you're never supposed to actually be fully comfortable with what's going on or how it works? I mean heck, a Kamui literally devours it's subject alive as a default and you can't deny that's the symbolic equivalent of beating the audience with a sledgehammer.

You're not supposed to be comfortable with any of this. That's the entire point of the series. The fact that one is played slightly differently is intentional.

[Hiro Protagonest]

You're not supposed to be comfortable with any of this. That's the entire point of the series. The fact that one is played slightly differently is intentional.

Well, if that's the point then apparently some of the fans in this thread are missing it.

[Soras Teva Gee]

For a very subjective value of awesome. Mostly it's going for the same kind of awesome as TTGL, not that I personally found TTGL awesome but I know what people mean when they say it is, while doing it on a far tighter budget and cranks up the absurdity to compensate. I personally don't think they have the same creativity or energy to either the animation or the designs, the non-sexualized ones I mean, but some people clearly do.

Hence the use of tricksome... however ignoring whether they are succeed I can't think of a better word to describe what they were seeking as a compliment when they plotted out this show.

And if the budget is tighter the intervening years have eaten up meaningful step down, though I've not watched TTGL in some time and don't have it in HD and haven't watched all the episodes several times.

And in cranking up the absudity they have (so far) kept a much tighter pacing, just look at their clip show.

I've been in the General Anime/Manga thread, and my experience must be different from yours.

This thread has shown much of why I don't go there anymore, though actually less not for the specific conflict then you might expect and more my follow my general anti-fandom crusade.

[Jayngfet]

Well, if that's the point then apparently some of the fans in this thread are missing it.

Hey, I'm not responsible for them not getting it.

It's a show where sexy cosplay literally devours their wearers alive from the inside out and the biggest indicators of social norms are used to either beat people up or kill the people using them and work them into the system.

How do you not get that? I mean again, half of this they literally turn to the camera and tell you, straight up. I'm not making this up so much as very lightly paraphrasing what's said in the first episode multiple times.

[MLai]

I was somewhat interested in this anime until the "the animation is bad due to shoestring budget." All interest is lost at this point. There are too many beautiful animations I have yet to watch, such as say Wakfu or hell even Naruto Shippuuden (which has bursts of awesome animation in between dry periods of stock shonen storytelling), for me to make time for this one.

And it is not fair to compare this anime to Tenjou Tenghe. Even if arguably all else is equal (which I don't think so; early-on, TT plot is great) the anime of TT has gorgeous animation and the manga has gorgeous artwork.

[Mando Knight]

And in cranking up the absudity they have (so far) kept a much tighter pacing, just look at their clip show.

It was the best clip/recap/compilation episode ever. Touched on the basics of the plot for the first 15 episodes, and still had enough time to fit in new material...

...before the opening theme.

[Terraoblivion]

Presumably because the creators are trying to have their cake and eat it too. While they're busy saying that, the framing of the actual shots show a rather great eagerness to look at how hot the girls are.

[Jayngfet]

Presumably because the creators are trying to have their cake and eat it too. While they're busy saying that, the framing of the actual shots show a rather great eagerness to look at how hot the girls are.

Right. Look how comfortable everyone was in the bath scene.

I mean look how goddamn hot Satsuki was, curled up in the fetal position and moments away from a nervous breakdown. Or five minutes before when she's coughing up blood and doubled over. Or any number of things related to putting on the suit or the people who gave it to her.

If you don't see something literally being flung in your face, I don't know what to say to you.

[Prime32]

Which is to say anime produced on a shoestring budget so shortcuts had to be made. It isn't really a stylistic issue to use lots of still pictures, it was and is a matter of how many animators and how long production cycles you can afford. You can add stylistic embellishments to make it look nice despite the technical shortcomings brought on by a poor budget, but the shortcomings are still there creating kinda bad animation, though the art might be good. Personally I don't think that's the case here, but it's a minor issue and partly a matter of personal taste.

Personally it cracks me up when they draw attention to the shortcuts, like Mako flipping over like a cardboard cutout, or Gamagoori moving closer and further away by changing size. The show is surreal enough already that it manages to be less jarring than something like this.

Disclaimer: This post is not intended to belittle Symphogear. Just that one scene.

EDIT:

Right. Look how comfortable everyone was in the bath scene.

I mean look how goddamn hot Satsuki was, curled up in the fetal position and moments away from a nervous breakdown. Or five minutes before when she's coughing up blood and doubled over. Or any number of things related to putting on the suit or the people who gave it to her.

...besides that though, Satsuki also has plenty of scenes where the camera just zooms in on her ass for no reason.

[Terraoblivion]

Right. Look how comfortable everyone was in the bath scene.

I mean look how goddamn hot Satsuki was, curled up in the fetal position and moments away from a nervous breakdown. Or five minutes before when she's coughing up blood and doubled over. Or any number of things related to putting on the suit or the people who gave it to her.

If you don't see something literally being flung in your face, I don't know what to say to you.

So two scenes that cover roughly two minutes between them deny all the leering the camera has done of both Ryuko and Satsuki. Seriously, you'd have to be literally incapable of deciphering basic cinematography to not notice how much of the female nudity is played as completely straight as fanservice. Basically, there is a whole lot of fanservice, some comments about how its dangerous by the way and very limited periods where it is shown. Volume of shots showing different things framed in different ways matter, just like having something that goes directly counter to what you're saying rather undermines it. If they wanted to make kamuis scary, they should stop spending 95% of the screen time of someone wearing one fanservice. Just saying it and throwing in a token scene of Satsuki being roughed up by it 16 episodes into the show isn't going to make kamuis seem horrifying. Especially not when the show is intentionally trying to be too silly to really work as horror.

Also, for the bath scene...It was kinda creepily sexualized on top of being a gratuitous on-screen rape. That was actually one of the problems with it, it didn't push horror in the framing and portrayal, which just makes it worse but not for in-character reasons.

[Ibrinar]

I shall ignore the problematic issues at the moment (while (based on what I have seen and read) I would side with Terraoblivion if I had to take part, I don't want to discuss it myself at the moment. Also to be honest I'm quite able to ignore such matters if I just like other elements enough.)

First: I gave it a 7 episodes try mostly because it was hyped in some places I'm reading. In other words: what I'm saying is only based on the beginning.

I think one reason the show didn't work for me is Mako. Many of the KlK fans seem to absolutely love here while I found that I basically disliked any scene she appeared in. She seems to be nothing more than a vehicle for randomness. That isn't necessarily bad, in most cases randomness is used for humor and I assume the same goes for her. No humor in KlK worked for me so I suppose it isn't surprising that I don't like Mako.
What I was wondering is: Does anyone of you who like KlK dislike Mako? Her antics seem so prevalent that I'm wondering whether you can like the show while considering her an annoyance.

[Sigh]

And you just assume that since we're (presumably) a bunch of pervy hot blooded males that we've got nothing but the hots for whenever one of the female characters feels/looks like they're being taken advantage of?

Because I don't know about you, but I felt intense sympathy for Ryuko the entire time she felt shame while all of those (faceless and negatively portrayed mind you) guys in the bleachers were just ogling her. I felt immense amounts of respect for Satsuki when, in the beginning, she made it clear that she considered the opinions of those she didn't care about to be beneath her and not worth her consideration (a level of self confidence I think all of us should strive to have). I cheered every time Ryuko won, not because of some simplistic "oh sweet a barely detailed naked body" but because that was another step closer to her achieving her goal of finding out what happened to her father.

I could go on, but over this past week I've been dealing with the dooziest of colds and expending even this much energy over something this stupid is wearing me down. I'm gonna go take a nap in the hopes that this'll be over when I get back to the land of the living.