Kill la Kill: The first life fiber is what?!

[Poison_Fish]

I apologize if my defending the show took a bent where it made you uncomfortable, i just took bad offense to some of the statements that seemed to be aimed towards anyone who liked it. That said my opinions on feminism are rather well informed, but also not the subject. If anyone does want to hear them or whatever ill take them out to make people more comfortable when i have the time.

Based on everything you have said so far in relation to the subject of feminism, you seem to have no actual understanding of it. I'm sorry, but from what you've addressed already on the subject, I'd get hay fever from reading it again.

A general note that seems to bear repeating once again. One can enjoy media that has distasteful/problematic/uneasy elements. Just don't shine them up to claim it's something when it very much isn't.

Hey, don't knock it. They may not have smooth animation but their keyframes and character poses are obviously the sort of stuff made by people who know what they're doing and have years of experience. It would be better if it was smoother, sure, but they have good enough fundamentals otherwise for me not to care.

I actually think their scenes can be fairly bad. Scenes get far to busy without much effort to differentiate with the busy elements. Their art can be good in a stylistic way (ignoring the amount of things they try to cram in), but their animation has more problems then just not being smooth. I think most of it stems from poor design for their transitions (so many unnecessary stills), but that may be me judging from my weird position of understanding animation. I do think they have experience, we can clearly see that experience with whoever in Trigger worked on Little Witch Academia. It just hasn't transferred to KlK in my opinion.

As for my opinion on KlK proper, I'm pretty much with Terra on this one. I was excited for it initially because Trigger showed a lot of promise with Little Witch and I ended up disappointed. Episode 7 really sealed that coffin for me as well with it's even worse writing and one of the dumbest "just so stories" of wealth inequality. Note, I am still watching it due to anime time with a friend who enjoys it for what it partially is, a pointless fanservicy action show with over the top elements. Frankly If I wanted something similar but better as an overall, I'd just go with Medaka Box. For now though I watch it with a critical eye and my friend and I discuss it.

[Dragonus45]

Based on everything you have said so far in relation to the subject of feminism, you seem to have no actual understanding of it. I'm sorry, but from what you've addressed already on the subject, I'd get hay fever from reading it again.

A general note that seems to bear repeating once again. One can enjoy media that has distasteful/problematic/uneasy elements. Just don't shine them up to claim it's something when it very much isn't.

Ahhh yes insult me more that will improve things, listen I apparently have come to a different opinion than you on the subject but that by no means says that i haven't bothered to study it.


When people start saying things based off of their own personal philosophies that are blatantly insulting to people who watch the show you have hit the point where "you can totally still enjoy it" is backtracking.

[Kato]

Just skimming through the last five pages within 24 hours or so I feel like assuming Sigh is in fact a evil mastermind who created this thread merely as a platform to get people to argue
(Though, it seems much more likely he was entirely oblivious to the debate this would cause..)
I've said my part and to not be goaded into getting another argument on feminism/nudity/fanservice... I'll return here when the new episode has aired... which may or may not be when we require a second thread.

[John Cribati]

So… I think I might be done with this show. Halfway through the first dinner with Mako’s family, it felt like I had to start a Ritalin regimen or something to follow what was happening. And this is coming from a guy who could follow Seto No Hanayome at its most erratic.

[Poison_Fish]

Ahhh yes insult me more that will improve things, listen I apparently have come to a different opinion than you on the subject but that by no means says that i haven't bothered to study it.


When people start saying things based off of their own personal philosophies that are blatantly insulting to people who watch the show you have hit the point where "you can totally still enjoy it" is backtracking.

No, bro, seriously, what you have laid out on feminism so far is pretty much meant for farm animals to eat*. You have already shown that you are confused on what the basic tenant of feminism is (In attempting to separate the movement from it's basic goal). Hell, had you actually studied feminism from an academic perspective, you could have some outs in your statements. Instead you use Patriarchy in scare quotes, seem to think someone mentioning catcalls is specific in calling all male sexuality bad (never mind it has the direct text of unwanted attention), and seem to believe that feminism has a "party line" that all men are lust zombies. Whatever you studied on feminism, it too was made of dry nutrition-less straw.

Also, you are confused on where people were being harsh. The harshness is on people holding KlK up as some paragon statement on human sexuality and culture. Perhaps you again missed what has been said by several here. "Don't claim it is something when it demonstrably is not". Pastiche is an accurate term for KlK. This doesn't stop you from discussing say, Mako's awesome goku uniform (which I thought was actually decent despite hating almost all of episode 7). You can compartmentalize parts of series and focus on what you enjoy out of it. No one here will make you feel bad for that. But it's a stretch to claim it is even close to sex positive since it falls to easy into it's sexualized visual cues.

*I don't mean to demean farm animals, but straw feminism is completely accurate so far. At least get some oats of recognizing sex positive movements that exist in feminism.

[Dragonus45]

No, bro, seriously, what you have laid out on feminism so far is pretty much meant for farm animals to eat*.

You really want to have the feminism discussion pm me in done clogging the thread with it.

[Fan]

Ahhh yes insult me more that will improve things, listen I apparently have come to a different opinion than you on the subject but that by no means says that i haven't bothered to study it.


When people start saying things based off of their own personal philosophies that are blatantly insulting to people who watch the show you have hit the point where "you can totally still enjoy it" is backtracking.

Don't feel bad Dragonus, social justice warriors tend to answer any claim that their ideology isn't perfect with the same "You just don't understand it", even if you're a former leader of said ideology, or "Not all of us are like your multiple cited examples from dozens of events with tens of thousands in attendance at each individual event, including signatures from most attendees on a document that asks the UN to deny a certain group human rights.", and of course that all too common "No True Scotsmen" fallacy with the "They're not real X.".

Just ignore them and move on, your day will be better for it, logic, and reason are alien to people motivated entirely by feelings. Trying to use it to convince them otherwise is a fools endeavor, you can't bring new view points to light when the opposing side in the debate is already so piously convinced that they are the only right way.

[Sigh]

So… I think I might be done with this show. Halfway through the first dinner with Mako’s family, it felt like I had to start a Ritalin regimen or something to follow what was happening. And this is coming from a guy who could follow Seto No Hanayome at its most erratic.

The family as a collective don't show up too too much after you're formally introduced to them. They're still secondary characters, mind you, but the majority of the focus is on Ryuko and Mako.

As for my status as an evil mastermind? That's still undetermined, but in regards to the debate this thread spawned I'd only heard the inklingest of inklings of this on Tumblr itself via the tags, the place where you'd imagine people would go the most vocally nuts about it (in a bad way). I figured that if even people there could see what I saw there was no reason to believe people wouldn't see it here as well.

[Moak]

Yeah... there's not much "coming of age" in Kill la Kill. Lots of "You're at the bottom of my dad's death, so I'll ruin your whole stupid fascist high school by beating up your entire stupid hierarchy, even if it means I have to wear an uncomfortably sexualized outfit to do so," though.

I feel the same. Expecially how I see it like e "TTGL'ed" Fortified School, in many aspect, in the first episodes.

[Tengu_temp]

Hey, I haven't been paying attention since page 3. Has this thread gone anywhere since then, or is it still people arguing with each other and buttpatting those who think the same as them?

*scrolls up several posts*

Yup. Seems like it.

[A Rainy Knight]

Haven't seen eps. 16 or 17 yet, but I'm looking forward to them based on what everyone's been saying!

Out of all the characters in this show, I feel like Gamagoori has really been the stand-out to me. He's the one who kicked the series off for me with a hilarious start (diving down along the staircase and laughing all the while), and he's had some really funny moments since then without it feeling like forced humor ("What nerve! This is a no-passing zone!"). I almost wish we'd see more of Satsuki and the Elite Four in general, since I've actually come to like them more than Ryuuko and company.

And besides that, I've always been a fan of hammy characters, and he takes the 'large' part of 'large ham' extremely literally.

[Primal Fury]

Wow. There's a lot of... stuff goin' on in here, isn't there? At any rate, I like the show, even with all the ridiculous fan-service, and apparent sexism . I'm confused as to what the hell is gonna happen next though.

Spoiler

Show

How is Ragyo not dead? Why is Satsuki talking as though she's not going to die? Does she have... like... life fibers spliced into her body now? Are she and Ryuko gonna be all Goku and Vegeta here? When is someone gonna wear the first life fiber? I know it's gonna happen, and I want it.

[endoperez]

Just ignore them and move on, your day will be better for it, logic, and reason are alien to people motivated entirely by feelings.

You just claimed that everyone who holds certain opinions is illogical and emotionally unstable. That statement is illogical and unreasonable. A comedian could make this post into a whole act where everything he says will condemn himself ever deeper into the hole he's digging under his own feet.

[Fan]

You just claimed that everyone who holds certain opinions is illogical and emotionally unstable. That statement is illogical and unreasonable. A comedian could make this post into a whole act where everything he says will condemn himself ever deeper into the hole he's digging under his own feet.

As I said before.

Ignore them, move on, and enjoy your day. Enjoy things that you like regardless of what other people have to say about them, and don't let other people decide your opinions. And certain opinions are at their base illogical, especially when they ignore unbiased fact.

[Jayngfet]

I actually think their scenes can be fairly bad. Scenes get far to busy without much effort to differentiate with the busy elements. Their art can be good in a stylistic way (ignoring the amount of things they try to cram in), but their animation has more problems then just not being smooth. I think most of it stems from poor design for their transitions (so many unnecessary stills), but that may be me judging from my weird position of understanding animation. I do think they have experience, we can clearly see that experience with whoever in Trigger worked on Little Witch Academia. It just hasn't transferred to KlK in my opinion.

As for my opinion on KlK proper, I'm pretty much with Terra on this one. I was excited for it initially because Trigger showed a lot of promise with Little Witch and I ended up disappointed. Episode 7 really sealed that coffin for me as well with it's even worse writing and one of the dumbest "just so stories" of wealth inequality. Note, I am still watching it due to anime time with a friend who enjoys it for what it partially is, a pointless fanservicy action show with over the top elements. Frankly If I wanted something similar but better as an overall, I'd just go with Medaka Box. For now though I watch it with a critical eye and my friend and I discuss it.

I never said it was perfect, just that it was better than some other things I have low opinions of and it manages to meet my standards. There's a middle ground between "not taking in everything" and "everything I watch must be perfection". I follow plenty of series with prominent flaws, but that doesn't mean the good doesn't outweigh the bad by a decent amount, at least by how I judge things.

Likewise though, the more I thought about it the more I liked Episode seven. You can say it's not what you liked about wealth inequality but as someone who's actually seen that kind of distance and callousness develop first hand, I can understand entirely about wanting to give the whole thing up and go back to square one. Given all the frequently mentioned issues surrounding Japanese culture it's probably a bit more poignant when viewed by it's actual intended audience. Especially given that it's meant to be a part of a system set up by crazy people to play weird power games with the general populace.

[Friv]

You just claimed that everyone who holds certain opinions is illogical and emotionally unstable. That statement is illogical and unreasonable. A comedian could make this post into a whole act where everything he says will condemn himself ever deeper into the hole he's digging under his own feet.

As soon as someone uses the phrase "social justice warrior" as an actual serious thing, you can be fairly sure you don't need to keep reading their posts.

Anyway, on-topic!

Out of all the characters in this show, I feel like Gamagoori has really been the stand-out to me. He's the one who kicked the series off for me with a hilarious start (diving down along the staircase and laughing all the while), and he's had some really funny moments since then without it feeling like forced humor ("What nerve! This is a no-passing zone!"). I almost wish we'd see more of Satsuki and the Elite Four in general, since I've actually come to like them more than Ryuuko and company.

And besides that, I've always been a fan of hammy characters, and he takes the 'large' part of 'large ham' extremely literally.

Gamagoori is clearly the best character. I am kind of shipping him with Mako because they clearly have amazing chemistry. ;)

Seriously, though, I really like the idea of the Elite Four; all of them are interesting folks, with rational reasons to be loyal followers of Satsuki. That was actually the reason I suspected that she was going to turn into a good guy early on; it's unusual to get that much sympathy for characters who are going to stay on the bad guy side.

We'll see how that works out, mind you.

As an aside, does anyone else think that Mikisugi is totally patterned after Aizen from Bleach, at least visually?

[T-O-E]

Don't feel bad Dragonus, social justice warriors

Feminists are not always social justice warriors.

logic, and reason are alien to people motivated entirely by feelings.

So they're hysterical? Really?

Trying to use it to convince them otherwise is a fools endeavor, you can't bring new view points to light when the opposing side in the debate is already so piously convinced that they are the only right way.

But you just pointed out that you can't learn anything from the debate or expect to change your opinion in this exact same paragraph. And you're convinced that your belief system is entirely rational.

Dividing emotion and reason from each other is more of a Star Trek thing. In reality, reasoning is heavily based on emotion. People who have little emotional response are not Vulcans but actually have difficulty making decisions about anything.

[Jayngfet]

Feminists are not always social justice warriors.

....I'm trying reeeeally hard to stay out of this trainwreck, but I'm just gonna comment here.

There is a difference, yes, but lets not pretend that Social Justice Warrior nonsense isn't a major part of some of these posts.

I mean to be blunt about it, Terraoblivions arguments have nothing to do with the cinematography or craft of the show, and they have nothing to do with the idea of taking the work as a whole. All they've ever been about, at least in this thread, is tossing around the exact kind of buzzwords one tends to find in low tiered liberal arts classrooms and refusing to actually back up most statements with any kind of evidence.

Fan is kind of out of line here, I'm not going to pretend otherwise. However, nobody here has been a paragon of restraint and fairness either. We're all more than a little terrible when you get down to it.

[Poison_Fish]

Don't feel bad Dragonus, social justice warriors tend to answer any claim that their ideology isn't perfect with the same "You just don't understand it", even if you're a former leader of said ideology, or "Not all of us are like your multiple cited examples from dozens of events with tens of thousands in attendance at each individual event, including signatures from most attendees on a document that asks the UN to deny a certain group human rights.", and of course that all too common "No True Scotsmen" fallacy with the "They're not real X.".

Just ignore them and move on, your day will be better for it, logic, and reason are alien to people motivated entirely by feelings. Trying to use it to convince them otherwise is a fools endeavor, you can't bring new view points to light when the opposing side in the debate is already so piously convinced that they are the only right way.

Fan: "I don't understand True Scotsman Fallacy 2014". Pretty much everyone here has said: Feminism has a basic tenant about gender equality. A few more have said there are exceptions and extreme forms in the groups within feminism that are both minor in number and influence. If you have a single interpretation of feminism that says something specific, like say, men are lust zombies, that isn't most of feminism. There is in fact a larger amount of individuals who say otherwise. If you extrapolate to say that the MZL (Man Zombie Lust) belief is all of feminism, that is plain incorrect. Claiming that this is a party line in feminism is a strawman. Besides, for it to be no true Scotsman one needs to make a universal statement.

It's a bit like a fan having a loud voice that others seem to hear a lot, despite not representing much of a fandom. Save that unlike another group that makes this claim, they exist beyond a few internet forums and the numbers pan out. Bell Hooks is a good place to start in understanding how feminism is varied along with some of the problematic elements within in it. So, just to make it clear there, I do not hold the movement up as a holy grail ideology. You can drop that ad hoc construction right off at the side of the road, which means your car is just burning on lack of empirical claims.

So the TL;DR of it. There are those in Feminism that are an extreme element, they don't have much influence and are minor in number.

I never said it was perfect, just that it was better than some other things I have low opinions of and it manages to meet my standards. There's a middle ground between "not taking in everything" and "everything I watch must be perfection". I follow plenty of series with prominent flaws, but that doesn't mean the good doesn't outweigh the bad by a decent amount, at least by how I judge things.

Likewise though, the more I thought about it the more I liked Episode seven. You can say it's not what you liked about wealth inequality but as someone who's actually seen that kind of distance and callousness develop first hand, I can understand entirely about wanting to give the whole thing up and go back to square one. Given all the frequently mentioned issues surrounding Japanese culture it's probably a bit more poignant when viewed by it's actual intended audience. Especially given that it's meant to be a part of a system set up by crazy people to play weird power games with the general populace.

Mmm, I don't think I implied you thought it was perfect, but fair enough. If I get into the nitty gritty of it while controlling for scene and clothing choices/general issues with character construction, I do think the art is ok. For instance take this key frame. I think one of the strongest things is their line work. The transition to finished production, the linework stays. I do think the shadows and the lighting are off but that would push it into the thing I generally complain about KlK scenes being to busy. The goal of this scene is to mock Uzu's crotch (again, ignoring my issues with that grab bag), but look at all the spotlights they are trying to imply with the circles. That's more then a few shadows. Yes, you don't need to go for realism, I'm just taking this as a general example to explain some of my thoughts regarding KlK's art/animation choices.

As for episode 7, the Japanese brand of "Let's go back to square one" concept is strong, especially in the 70's/80's era media (Akira, Japan sinks, etc.) that KlK's art style is pulling a lot of ref from. But unlike those works, which goes back to square one through destruction, the family goes straight back into poverty. Change is a big part of that idea, and this doesn't have change, just returning to status quo for the purpose of the episode after they were drying up their monster of the week format.

Terraoblivions arguments have nothing to do with the cinematography or craft of the show, and they have nothing to do with the idea of taking the work as a whole. All they've ever been about, at least in this thread, is tossing around the exact kind of buzzwords one tends to find in low tiered liberal arts classrooms and refusing to actually back up most statements with any kind of evidence.

Talking about where the camera is placed is in fact talking about the cinematography of the show. The overuse of stills with flashing backgrounds is about the cinematography of the show. Talking about the pacing of fights due to use of stills is about the cinematography and craft of the show.

The majority of what that conversation turned into may have been over a holistic look at KlK and portrayal elements, but cinematography and craft was discussed. I also don't suggest trying to sum it up as "buzzwords" and "low tiered liberal arts". It really doesn't do you any benefit.

[Flickerdart]

However, nobody here has been a paragon of restraint and fairness either. We're all more than a little terrible when you get down to it.

I don't know about you but I'm pretty great.

Anyhow, Gamagoori is indeed fantastic, mostly because he's the only one of the Elite Four who's not a terrible person. The others are all some minor variations on "thug who thugs for Satsuki after thugging on their own" but Gamagoori actually started out decent and part of that still shines through in his interactions with Mako.

Speaking of Mako, I really don't mind her. She and her family serves to ground Ryuko. And during the Fight Club arc we saw that she's not exactly helpless either...I'm hoping we'll see that particular uniform return.

I don't especially like any of the Nudist Beach characters though. Mikisugi is kind of okay as an infodump guy but once he stepped out of the shadows his entire organization turned out to be utterly pointless. Needles guy went from appearing to be a credible threat to pointless almost immediately. The power level of Nudist Beach would have made them a much more reasonable reveal while Ryuko was still fighting two-stars, but even the mark 1 3-star regalia outclass them so utterly that it's not even interesting.

[Friv]

Anyhow, Gamagoori is indeed fantastic, mostly because he's the only one of the Elite Four who's not a terrible person. The others are all some minor variations on "thug who thugs for Satsuki after thugging on their own" but Gamagoori actually started out decent and part of that still shines through in his interactions with Mako.

I dunno, I can make some strong arguments for Jakuzure being a terrible person but not a thug, and Sanageyama being a thug but not a terrible person. She's got a complex relationship with Satsuki that dates back a decade, and he's got his whole focused attitude and respect for the power of his opponents.

[Jayngfet]

Mmm, I don't think I implied you thought it was perfect, but fair enough. If I get into the nitty gritty of it while controlling for scene and clothing choices/general issues with character construction, I do think the art is ok. For instance take this key frame. I think one of the strongest things is their line work. The transition to finished production, the linework stays. I do think the shadows and the lighting are off but that would push it into the thing I generally complain about KlK scenes being to busy. The goal of this scene is to mock Uzu's crotch (again, ignoring my issues with that grab bag), but look at all the spotlights they are trying to imply with the circles. That's more then a few shadows. Yes, you don't need to go for realism, I'm just taking this as a general example to explain some of my thoughts regarding KlK's art/animation choices.

As for episode 7, the Japanese "Let's go back to square one" concept is strong, especially in the 70's/80's era media (Akira, Japan sinks, etc.) that KlK's art style is pulling a lot of ref from. But unlike those works, which goes back to square one through destruction, the family goes straight back into poverty. Change is a big part of that idea, and this doesn't have change, just returning to status quo for the purpose of the episode after they were drying up their monster of the week format.

I think they may have overblown the shadows a bit, but I'll admit I'm not exactly sure how many would have been better. The top three are probably most important though, given the lines made by the legs lead directly back to his crotch. The other two I dunno if they should have been dropped or changed or if the whole thing should have been changed dramatically to make it work.

On episode seven, I think it's important to note the how's and the why's of the larger context, and where the show actually goes from there and where it could have gone given the context. I mean it's made obvious through the episode itself that their wealth isn't from any kind of achievement or skill so much as being just another of Satsuki's weird games. If they'd kept the money, it'd break from the themes at hand and how it related to other episodes, especially the episode where Ryuko goes berzerk and is reminded of that specific one.

To keep the money would imply that it's basically ok for Mako and her family to play Satsuki's messed up games, and that her games have some kind of merit, and it'd detract from what Satsuki herself was planning through the episode. Changes were made, just not immediately or visibly.

Which is why I'm saying we should hold off on this kind of discussion til after the end, since it's obvious they're going somewhere with this but haven't arrived there just yet.

The majority of what that conversation turned into may have been over a holistic look at KlK and portrayal elements, but cinematography and craft was discussed. I also don't suggest trying to sum it up as "buzzwords" and "low tiered liberal arts". It really doesn't do you any benefit.

The cinematography was only done in the vaguest of ways, and there wasn't much that could be said regarding the post in that sense as far as I'm concerned.

I'm not gonna apologies for phrasing though. I call it like I see it and the specific phrasing is the sort of thing I got way too much of back when I was studying sociology and the history of modern art, two disciplines that, to put it bluntly, need to stop drinking their own kool-aid and pay attention to the world around them a bit more.

[Fan]

Feminists are not always social justice warriors.



So they're hysterical? Really?



But you just pointed out that you can't learn anything from the debate or expect to change your opinion in this exact same paragraph. And you're convinced that your belief system is entirely rational.

Dividing emotion and reason from each other is more of a Star Trek thing. In reality, reasoning is heavily based on emotion. People who have little emotional response are not Vulcans but actually have difficulty making decisions about anything.

I pointed out that I expected no one of that view point to even listen to my points in the debate, or to try and turn it around as if I somehow hate women. Also, while not all feminists are social justice warriors, Social Justice Warriors tend to be feminists. I never said that all feminists are all social justice warriors. I believe that there is a fair amount of gender equity feminists that are good people who just genuinely want people to get along and treat each other with respect. However, saying that sect is the majority, especially when it comes to a movement as rife with sects as feminism, (a certain, Trans Exclusionary Radical Feminism comes to mind, of which there are tens of thousands in the UK alone going by attendance records of their conventions. Which is in no way representative of Gender Equity Feminism. The default unlabled group of feminists, which only earns it's numbered superiority by merit of claiming those who haven't chosen a specific sect.).

Saying someone is hysterical, when they aren't willing to listen to unbiased research figures because it offends them is in fact calling a duck a duck. I've never even actually seen that series of Star Trek either, I don't really like what I've heard about it to actually go and watch anything past Voyager, and Captain Kirk always seemed like a bit of a total actually misogynist ass clown to me for me to even bother with it. I do genuinely believe that we, as a higher intelligence, are more than capable of acting without emotion as a motivator beyond the thought of "How to do the most good for the most people.". This isn't a vulcan thing, it's a "I don't let my bodies chemical impulses rule me." thing, and I distance myself from issues that are larger than me personally in an attempt to make objective observations with no regard to my own preferences or experience beyond scientific knowledge.

I was also not misusing the no true scottsmen fallacy. I identified a group of people, numbering in significant amounts and with accrediation enough to be considered representative of the group, and you pointed out that they weren't representative of feminism at all. That's No True Scottsmen. By saying "Oh they're just a minority", and thus aren't "Real Feminists" you have invoked the no true scottsmen fallacy.

If someone has legitimate points based in legitimately done research with backed up academic credentials then I'm fine being proven wrong. I'm not the type of person who believes their own viewpoint is infalliable as I've demonstrated through my entire history as a poster. The whole idea behind MY ideology is that you are always wrong about something in fact, that there is some angle you haven't considered, or something you don't know yet. It's great for motivation and getting me to learn. Is it a perfect viewpoint? No.

However, the moment anyone claimed that a certain set of viewpoints might be wrong, it was immediately brought up that anyone who disagreed with them was anti women. That is my problem. The whole "We are right, you are wrong" mentality is completely alien to anything resembling free thought, and that is my issue.

I will say, that I do respect you somewhat Poison Fish. Of all the people in the opposing camp you were the only one who stepped forward and attempted to dissect my argument, and did so admirably.

The show however, on topic, is good. It has solid art direction, the story telling is exactly my brand of hot blooded narm, and Ryuko reminds me more of Simon, or even Kaneda from Akira than she does a sex object. She's a powerful, exciting, and intelligent character that drives a revenge story that has fan service and jokes aplenty. Is it for everyone? No, nothing is. However, if seeing skimpy outfits isn't something that offends you, and you're willing to put up with a few slower paced episodes in between the high adrenaline action I suggest it heartily to any reader / viewer.

[Terraoblivion]

If you're going to create logical traps or reframe the discussion, you might want to do it a bit more artfully. For example, if you want to make the discussion about how kamuis are portrayed narratively, it is generally a good idea to not walk into the topic with a cocky attitude and start out proclaiming that what has been said before is all wrong. That will generally irritate people rather than make them follow your example in what is to be discussed. Similarly, suddenly calling for more detail when you have provided just as little yourself and won't even provide examples of what's lacking detail is a bit hollow. And, of course, just continuing to make new attempts at reframing the discussion whenever the previous one proved unsuccessful is just going to make you look unfocused.

Want to hear my view of kamuis in the narrative? It is that it is kinda limp-wristed, because they're the incarnation of the ultimate evil but they're also the close buddy of the hero that the entire first half of the show was about learning to trust and work with. Tsumugu's introduction and the climax of the episode with Nui in the disguise are the two most obvious examples of this. Beyond that, it is also something that has been given little enough time to not really matter compared to the visual insistence that Ryuko looks hot in it. I quite frankly don't feel the need to provide examples of that, if you're going to deny that the visuals at least broadly speaking fall in line with ideas of hotness you're going to contradict everybody who has spoken about the matter. Just like you're going to deny the reactions of characters in the show, who most certainly tell us that it's hot in-universe.

Your claim that it doesn't matter because the show is unrolling it to make it retroactively not hot is both nonsense in that it presumes synchronizity in an inherently temporal medium, it also doesn't work given that even after the big reveal, Ryuko is still standing up for Senketsu rather than treating him like a horrible monster. The reveal is also not about finding the visuals hot, it's about life fibers, regardless of how the outfit they produce looks, are evil. It does in fact not relate to the hotness of the outfit that the show establishes one way or another, just like Ryuko and Satsuki's approaches of cooperation vis-a-vis domination of their kamuis has no effect on the visual effect. Furthermore, to claim that we're supposed to find it horrible clashes heavily with the over the top nature and tongue in cheek tone of the show. No grisly remains of major battles are shown, just cartoonish piles of people who are virtually indistinguishable from the piles of defeated Romans in an Asterix comic. Similarly, whenever a named character is seriously hurt, it's the lead-up to their return stronger, more confident and better adjusted than before. Which is to say, people getting seriously hurt physically or emotionally broadly speaking follow the pattern of long-running shounen action series, except with less actual death or injury. There are also constant cartoon physics, off-the-cuff jokes even in serious scenes and an entire series concept based around a pair of puns.

It just isn't a horror show and neither fans nor opponents have claimed that it is before you suddenly went ahead and said it was all meant to be uncomfortable. And again, even if that wasn't the intent, that isn't what people are seeing, going by how literally everyone has talked about the nudity as fanservice. Fan just did it for example and earlier Soras Teva Gee said that hotness is an integral part of character design of female characters for him and Ryuko hit the sweet spot. Everyone is seeing the large amounts of nudity as being sexual, male-oriented fanservice and that is the effect that's worth studying.

Also, you think that I've been using obscure liberal arts terms? Really? I haven't even gotten to reification and bricolage, much less things like the fro-da game, nodal points or simulacrums. I've been moving around the kiddy pool of academic lingo, with the exception of some concepts of a specific second wave feminist who I was using as an example of how gender essentialism does exist within certain branches of feminism. But, of course, somebody who cannot tell humanities from social sciences and think sociology is all useless garbage would probably not even realize that those examples of more hardcore academic phrases above are real ones. Incidentally, let me guess at what you consider proper, reality-oriented branches of humanity...Political history, especially with a strong focus on individuals, and statistics, right?

[Jayngfet]

Ok, I'm not even going to bother replying to most of that, largely because I have better things to do with my time. But this needs clarification:

Also, you think that I've been using obscure liberal arts terms? Really?

No, I think you've been using bottom level terms of the same sort I see thrown around by pseudointellectuals and others of the sort. Hence why I used the term "buzzword".

Likewise, it's become obvious from early on that you have a rather bizarre set of priorities regarding the show and regardless of your actual background it's become apparent that you're not someone who either can nor cares to break down what actually went into making it or the choices involved beyond the things that happen to bother you personally.

[Terraoblivion]

Likewise, it's become obvious from early on that you have a rather bizarre set of priorities regarding the show and regardless of your actual background it's become apparent that you're not someone who either can nor cares to break down what actually went into making it or the choices involved beyond the things that happen to bother you personally.

So let me get this straight...Keeping focus on specific criticisms and the arguments for and against them when debating is a bad thing and I should be talking about unrelated matters instead? For example, I could talk about how I think the scene with Gamagoori and Ryuko driving in episode 8 or 9 was the best scene in the show, showing both a sense of restraint it has otherwise been lacking but also having some very nice use of lightning, but how would that be relevant to anything? I could have done similar things with the design of the school looking like the collar of a sailor uniform or the past careers of the creators, to provide two other examples, but it would just be useless noise in the discussion.

The only thing about the show I consider even remotely interesting or important enough to talk about is the sexism and I have continued talking about it because people took umbrage with it and insisted that there was absolutely nothing remotely bad about the show. Why should I talk about random things that aren't important for anything? Because I'd be easier to distract and argue against that way?

Also, I rather like your view on using academic terms. Fields that use abstract ones, which you suggested I was also doing, are just speaking out of their ass and is a product of chemical influences on the brain. Using more accessible, general terms from academic fields mean that you're a poser who doesn't actually know anything. And in the span of two posts, you've accused me of doing both. It's really quite an impressive display of inconsistence and trying to find the insult that will stick.

[Jayngfet]

The only thing about the show I consider even remotely interesting or important enough to talk about is the sexism and I have continued talking about it because people took umbrage with it and insisted that there was absolutely nothing remotely bad about the show. Why should I talk about random things that aren't important for anything? Because I'd be easier to distract and argue against that way?

Um, no.

You've been talking about how hot you think everything is drawn and basically lashing out from that platform. You were the one who's been insisting that it's meant to be hot with no undercurrents and you're the one who's saying that's inherently bad.

I've been taking the sexual aspect and framing it against the shows larger context, because I'm not the one freaking out over asses being drawn. This is just one element of the show among many and it's something that needs to be looked at in context to be understoof.

You're obsessing about it, and only it. You were the one who declared that we weren't supposed to be uncomfortable with a rape scene despite the character obviously being an emotional wreck, because it wasn't shot to invoke immediate horror. I'm the one who's pointing out that yeah, it's uncomfortable, and even more so when you account for the episode immediately before and the one immediately after. Which is important because the scenes significance in the larger narrative only makes the most sense if you reserve judgement for at least a week to see how it plays off with the characters expressions and actions. Because this isn't off the cuff improv, it's a show with a clear plan it's following.

So please, don't blame me for your hangups.

[Poison_Fish]

I think they may have overblown the shadows a bit, but I'll admit I'm not exactly sure how many would have been better. The top three are probably most important though, given the lines made by the legs lead directly back to his crotch. The other two I dunno if they should have been dropped or changed or if the whole thing should have been changed dramatically to make it work.

As I said, I find some of their scene choices not great.

On episode seven, I think it's important to note the how's and the why's of the larger context, and where the show actually goes from there and where it could have gone given the context. I mean it's made obvious through the episode itself that their wealth isn't from any kind of achievement or skill so much as being just another of Satsuki's weird games. If they'd kept the money, it'd break from the themes at hand and how it related to other episodes, especially the episode where Ryuko goes berzerk and is reminded of that specific one.

To keep the money would imply that it's basically ok for Mako and her family to play Satsuki's messed up games, and that her games have some kind of merit, and it'd detract from what Satsuki herself was planning through the episode. Changes were made, just not immediately or visibly.

It may be within the context of the system, but Mako's family rises as a result of action by both Mako and Ryuko. It is from their achievement and skill, even if it is corrupt. To claim that it isn't is to invalidate Ryuko's attempts at fighting in the first place. The problem is that Mako's family goes right back into the bottom of the system with no significant changes save for the premise that we may see one. I don't have high expectations for this.

The cinematography was only done in the vaguest of ways, and there wasn't much that could be said regarding the post in that sense as far as I'm concerned.

If by vague you mean talking specifically about pacing of movement in fights. That's a textbook cinematography discussion right there. That it wasn't followed up much other then "But I find it awesome" doesn't say what you are now trying to claim.

I'm not gonna apologies for phrasing though. I call it like I see it and the specific phrasing is the sort of thing I got way too much of back when I was studying sociology and the history of modern art, two disciplines that, to put it bluntly, need to stop drinking their own kool-aid and pay attention to the world around them a bit more.

You'll have to excuse me for completely laughing at your ignorance then. Your basically insulting 7 years of my work and study with a "I can only recognize some of the terms but can't piece them together, so they must be drinking a kool-aid and don't do things in reality". I'm a Sociologist by degree and training, and I did emergency planning and research for a medium sized city as work along withing working in academia before going into the corporate world of video games (Where once again my degree is extremely useful). Like I said, it's not doing you any favors to make throw away statements about it as a poor attempt in reframing the discussion. I can assure you, applying intersectionality as a lens for reducing death tolls from the results of an earthquake across different city lines is extremely useful, thank you very much.

I was also not misusing the no true scottsmen fallacy. I identified a group of people, numbering in significant amounts and with accrediation enough to be considered representative of the group, and you pointed out that they weren't representative of feminism at all. That's No True Scottsmen. By saying "Oh they're just a minority", and thus aren't "Real Feminists" you have invoked the no true scottsmen fallacy.

My words are, "they are extreme within feminism, but that is not all of feminism". I'm not making a universal claim. You are the one extrapolating a 'thus' claim, despite direct wording. To be me more specific, this is more about someone not having knowledge of how feminism varies and instead are attempting to sum up it's entirety into a universal strawman for them to smash. Ignoring variance within feminism is plain inaccurate. No one has denied the existence of extreme elements. They have only denied a singular summary of what feminism is that is demonstrably not accurate.

Just to make it clear though Fan, I'm not very interested in engaging with you based on past history. It's generally not worth the time nor is it worth it for this thread.

[Jayngfet]

As I said, I find some of their scene choices not great.

And as I said, there's certainly room for improvement.

It may be within the context of the system, but Mako's family rises as a result of action by both Mako and Ryuko. It is from their achievement and skill, even if it is corrupt. To claim that it isn't is to invalidate Ryuko's attempts at fighting in the first place. The problem is that Mako's family goes right back into the bottom of the system with no significant changes save for the premise that we may see one. I don't have high expectations for this.

No, they rise as a result of Ryuko's skill and Satsuki's crazy.

It's made obvious that's not how it's supposed to go.

If by vague you mean talking specifically about pacing of movement in fights. That's a textbook cinematography discussion right there. That it wasn't followed up much other then "But I find it awesome" doesn't say what you are now trying to claim.

I must've misread that specific comment then. If so, apologies.

You'll have to excuse me for completely laughing at your ignorance then. Your basically insulting 7 years of my work and study with a "I can only recognize some of the terms but can't piece them together, so they must be drinking a kool-aid and don't do things in reality". I'm a Sociologist by degree and training, and I did emergency planning and research for a medium sized city as work along withing working in academia before going into the corporate world of video games (Where once again my degree is extremely useful). Like I said, it's not doing you any favors to make throw away statements about it as a poor attempt in reframing the discussion. I can assure you, applying intersectionality as a lens for reducing death tolls from the results of an earthquake across different city lines is extremely useful, thank you very much.

Let me clarify. I wasn't referring to you specifically, and if you do good work then more power to you. You I have no problem with at any level and you're probably the best poster in this thread, self included.

I was largely going by my experiences in the field, which were much worse, and relating them to my experiences in other fields. When I say I have a problem with pseudo-intellectuals, it's because of the fact that the bulk of people I've run into have been pseudo-intellectuals. I've met some very good and very respected people, but I've come to expect them not to be the norm.

This isn't an attack on the liberal arts, so much as specific branches within them and specific sorts of people I run into most frequently to get more specific. I've always believed that the liberal arts should have a kind of inherent value, but I'm also of the opinion that in order to achieve the level of respect it needs and deserves it needs to recognize that in many cases it's it's own worst enemy.

[Fan]

As I said, I find some of their scene choices not great.



It may be within the context of the system, but Mako's family rises as a result of action by both Mako and Ryuko. It is from their achievement and skill, even if it is corrupt. To claim that it isn't is to invalidate Ryuko's attempts at fighting in the first place. The problem is that Mako's family goes right back into the bottom of the system with no significant changes save for the premise that we may see one. I don't have high expectations for this.



If by vague you mean talking specifically about pacing of movement in fights. That's a textbook cinematography discussion right there. That it wasn't followed up much other then "But I find it awesome" doesn't say what you are now trying to claim.



You'll have to excuse me for completely laughing at your ignorance then. Your basically insulting 7 years of my work and study with a "I can only recognize some of the terms but can't piece them together, so they must be drinking a kool-aid and don't do things in reality". I'm a Sociologist by degree and training, and I did emergency planning and research for a medium sized city as work along withing working in academia before going into the corporate world of video games (Where once again my degree is extremely useful). Like I said, it's not doing you any favors to make throw away statements about it as a poor attempt in reframing the discussion. I can assure you, applying intersectionality as a lens for reducing death tolls from the results of an earthquake across different city lines is extremely useful, thank you very much.



My words are, "they are extreme within feminism, but that is not all of feminism". I'm not making a universal claim. You are the one extrapolating a 'thus' claim, despite direct wording. To be me more specific, this is more about someone not having knowledge of how feminism varies and instead are attempting to sum up it's entirety into a universal strawman for them to smash. Ignoring variance within feminism is plain inaccurate. No one has denied the existence of extreme elements. They have only denied a singular summary of what feminism is that is demonstrably not accurate.

Just to make it clear though Fan, I'm not very interested in engaging with you based on past history. It's generally not worth the time nor is it worth it for this thread.

Welp, respect out the window.

That's a new record. Congratulations I guess?