Fairy Tail Thread 3: Demon-ex Machinus

[Forum Explorer]

I'd laugh if a 'are you sure you want to activate Face?' message appeared.

[Sliver]

End result: Screen freezes up and then BSOD followed up by a smiling Grey. Because... you know...

[Sith_Happens]

Silly torture demon, the less clothes Erza has on the stronger she is.

I know this is a joke, but it's actually one of the things I like about Erza's portrayal in the series. Namely, she (usually) shows skin the same way that male characters do: in direct proportion to how much ass she's kicking. Given the whole "titillation vs. power fantasy" thing that any discussion of male vs. female fanservice inevitably turns into, seeing a female character that hits both notes at the same time is like a breath of fresh air.

[lord_khaine]

Yeah.. i really think the whole being able to see despite having lost access to her senses.. "just because".. were to stupid to describe with words.

But even so i do still like Erza, i cant think of any other major female character like her, who are allowed to regularly kick so much ass, and be stronger than the main character.
(arguments can me made for her being a main character of course, if so she is certainly the strongest of them)

I mean, if you look at the closest competitors, then what Bleach and Naruto has to offer is directly pathethic.

And while Nami from OP is one of the sharpest tools in the box, providing an invaluable contribution to the team, then she is still not even close to being in league with the monster trio. Actually, i do have trouble thinking about any female of noticeable power, besides big Mom, who are imo more of a monster than anything else.

[Anteros]

But even so i do still like Erza, i cant think of any other major female character like her, who are allowed to regularly kick so much ass, and be stronger than the main character.
(arguments can me made for her being a main character of course, if so she is certainly the strongest of them)

She's easily my least favorite character. She never wins her fights with clever tactics, or uses her surroundings, or anything like that. It's always just "wow! She's even stronger than we thought she was!" Over and over and over again. I know every character in Fairy Tail is guilty of this, but Erza is by far the largest offender.

Every one of her fights goes the exact same way. She struggles exactly enough to get naked, and then suddenly is a lot stronger for no explained reason. At least Natsu sometimes gets his power ups from outside sources, and Gray sometimes uses his brain.

[Kato]

Every one of her fights goes the exact same way. She struggles exactly enough to get naked, and then suddenly is a lot stronger for no explained reason. At least Natsu sometimes gets his power ups from outside sources, and Gray sometimes uses his brain.

I kind of see what you mean but then the whole thing has gotten worse in general over the course of the series. Like, in the beginning it was much more strategy for all mages, and now it is either "just being stronger" or some... strategy which fails logic. Erza is probbaly the worst at it, though. I think maybe it's supposed to be some joke and we just haven't caught up on it yet. You know, what with Happy basically lampshading it here?

[Soras Teva Gee]

She's easily my least favorite character. She never wins her fights with clever tactics, or uses her surroundings, or anything like that. It's always just "wow! She's even stronger than we thought she was!" Over and over and over again. I know every character in Fairy Tail is guilty of this, but Erza is by far the largest offender.

Every one of her fights goes the exact same way. She struggles exactly enough to get naked, and then suddenly is a lot stronger for no explained reason. At least Natsu sometimes gets his power ups from outside sources, and Gray sometimes uses his brain.

I'm sure I've said this before and surely will again but if you want clever tactics you are reading the wrong manga.

Probably the wrong genre period. Seriously every shonen fight (and pretty much any story fight really) boils down not to who's the better fighter, or even who's "stronger" but who's more determined to win and who's feelings we the audience are supposed to agree with.

Actual "logical" battles would like 9 times out of 10 be synonymous with saying "I want the villains to win" because they are the ones with the plans, resources, and initiative that makes the plot happen in the first place. Because of course the writer can't cheap out once in thoroughly justifying the heroes victories or otherwise the heroes are dead. Which is a good recipe for a Mary Sue in the long run because they have to be pretty much invincible. Is there some sweet spot where you can do one without falling into the other? Maybe but its not going to be easy to do that and tell a good story.

And merely a lesser reliance on plot armor hero power is easy to say, but essentially a purely arbitrary opinion on what degree is acceptable or not. Can and will vary between people but any series that is successful is clearly pleasing enough people to remain in business so suggests its choice is indeed acceptable.

That all said if your looking for a series that chooses a bit more developed tactics this beer and pretzels series is clearly not going to serve such delicate wine. Or maybe I'd make the analogy that FT is the chain restaurant or maybe greasy spoon diner, and your asking for a gourmet custom dish. Seriously Fairy Tail is like the most generically shonen-y of shonen ever, even Hiro's art is about the closest I've seen to those "How to draw manga" books in style.

[Anteros]

I don't like the argument that "it's still in business so criticism is invalid." That's silly. We could never talk about anything if we took that position.

I'm not saying that every battle has to follow completely logical progression, or need clever tactics to be resolved, or anything like that. What I'm arguing is that the fights involving Erza in this manga are objectively more poorly written than the fights of other characters.

It was cute and amusing the first few times Erza won simply "because she's Erza" with no explanation. Now that we've had the exact same fight 14 times in a row with her, it's just boring, and bad writing.

[Soras Teva Gee]

I don't like the argument that "it's still in business so criticism is invalid." That's silly. We could never talk about anything if we took that position.

As far as I'm concerned anything that does not incorporate that viewpoint is meaningless arrogance. Its actually a rhetorical game for the speaker to defend their own opinions as inherently superior and thus to be listened to at the exclusion of everyone else.

How does this work? Simple. I merely take the opinion you are 100% wrong. Since our views are fundamentally opposed what makes your opinion superior. Nothing, therefore our views cancel. Which generally means a win by default for me since I like things as they are.

Quality is a delusion used to force a particular definition of quality down others throats. Because it is only an audience reaction and the audience is not a singular force but a multitude. And even casual observation should reveal that multitude likes just about everything just not in the same numbers. So its only the numbers that have anything like objective value.

It must be taken into consideration though because the job of entertainment is to entertain people so you entirely fail at it and you don't have a job. You need to make money or you don't exist and it doesn't matter what you think because you are nothing. Not that that is the only thing even from a money perspective because purely playing for the crowds is a form of slow death itself. You invest safely in that highest common denominator and you one day wake up finding yourself the guy that passed on the Next Big Thing. So you do a little of everything and sometimes "good" shows fail to find an audience, but the truly bad shows will as well and be forgotten even quicker. Anything that endures clearly has something working for it and you should strive to find what that is and value it for what it is.

And as for more subjective values I've also in parallel observed that what inevitably seems to be substituted (by fandom) the name of improving a delusion of objective quality always runs in the same direction. The same story, or at least same type of story. While there are many aspects the short version would be want say every anime/manga to be Attack on Titan. Super serious, completely arc based and ongoing, heavy attention to detail, the list goes on. Just a contemporary example, there are others out there, like AoT is in a lot of ways similar to Gundam without superficial details like giant robots.

Now AoT is great (also popular so that sort of thing can work!) but even saying its leagues above FT for any number of reasons well, I wouldn't want that to be the rule and not the exception. I might like fine wine and like to try different ones but they all remain fine wine. I don't want that to be the only thing ever served, that would eliminate the value of fine wine among other things.

And no I don't believe in some magical fairyland golden middle ground that makes everything of high "quality" while also averting all being the same type of story. So how things are now where you have your "high quality" faire and your "silly nonsense" faire is the best of all possible set-ups.

And in that you should judge and set your expectations by which particular type of story you are actually dealing with set by history and particular context not by what things "should" be.

[Anteros]

As far as I'm concerned anything that does not incorporate that viewpoint is meaningless arrogance. Its actually a rhetorical game for the speaker to defend their own opinions as inherently superior and thus to be listened to at the exclusion of everyone else.

How does this work? Simple. I merely take the opinion you are 100% wrong. Since our views are fundamentally opposed what makes your opinion superior. Nothing, therefore our views cancel. Which generally means a win by default for me since I like things as they are.

Quality is a delusion used to force a particular definition of quality down others throats. Because it is only an audience reaction and the audience is not a singular force but a multitude. And even casual observation should reveal that multitude likes just about everything just not in the same numbers. So its only the numbers that have anything like objective value.

It must be taken into consideration though because the job of entertainment is to entertain people so you entirely fail at it and you don't have a job. You need to make money or you don't exist and it doesn't matter what you think because you are nothing. Not that that is the only thing even from a money perspective because purely playing for the crowds is a form of slow death itself. You invest safely in that highest common denominator and you one day wake up finding yourself the guy that passed on the Next Big Thing. So you do a little of everything and sometimes "good" shows fail to find an audience, but the truly bad shows will as well and be forgotten even quicker. Anything that endures clearly has something working for it and you should strive to find what that is and value it for what it is.

And as for more subjective values I've also in parallel observed that what inevitably seems to be substituted (by fandom) the name of improving a delusion of objective quality always runs in the same direction. The same story, or at least same type of story. While there are many aspects the short version would be want say every anime/manga to be Attack on Titan. Super serious, completely arc based and ongoing, heavy attention to detail, the list goes on. Just a contemporary example, there are others out there, like AoT is in a lot of ways similar to Gundam without superficial details like giant robots.

Now AoT is great (also popular so that sort of thing can work!) but even saying its leagues above FT for any number of reasons well, I wouldn't want that to be the rule and not the exception. I might like fine wine and like to try different ones but they all remain fine wine. I don't want that to be the only thing ever served, that would eliminate the value of fine wine among other things.

And no I don't believe in some magical fairyland golden middle ground that makes everything of high "quality" while also averting all being the same type of story. So how things are now where you have your "high quality" faire and your "silly nonsense" faire is the best of all possible set-ups.

And in that you should judge and set your expectations by which particular type of story you are actually dealing with set by history and particular context not by what things "should" be.

You seem to hold some strange view that one person's opinion can be more valid than another's. I stated my opinion. If you enjoy the parts that I consider poorly written, good for you. I couldn't care less if you agree with me or not.

On the other hand, your stance that it's impossible to criticize anything that's successful is outlandish. I have a hard time believing that someone could actually hold such a view. First of all, you don't get to arbitrate what standards others use when they decide if they think something is good or bad. Secondly, people have been criticizing the work of others, both positively and negatively, since the creation of creativity itself. We have entire industries dedicated to nothing but reviewing other's work.

I made the statement that certain parts of Fairy Tail were better written than others. You countered that by saying since Fairy Tail is popular a whole, my statement couldn't possibly be true. It's such a ridiculous argument that I'm not even sure how to address it. Your position is so alien to me that I don't see how we could ever have a satisfying discussion about this.

[Kato]

Uh... I almost feel like continuing the above discussion but then I don't feel like MASSIVELY derailing the thread.

So instead

Spoiler: Back in ti~ime

Show

Twenty minutes earlier Sting uses psychology against Natsu. It's super effective. Also, Acnologia talks. Acnologia talks in FT, Corazon talks in OP, er... fists talk in Naruto(?), it must be week of speeches. Okay, not really. Forget about it. Still kind of cool to know he's still got a mind and is not some mindless, Sin-like killing machine. So that means he must have an agenda, right? What is it? Find out in another 400 chapters!
Elsewise... the three DS seem to kind of have a chance. But what will stop the faces from activating?

[LaZodiac]

Spoiler

Show

The only thing I don't like about this chapter is actually Acnologia speaking. I don't want him to become a speechifying villain, and I'd rather he not talk. He's the Apocolypse Dragon, if there was anyone who could be seen as a "near mindless killing machine" this would be it. However, knowing that he IS inteligent does make him more threatening, so there's that.

Sting and Rogue really shouldn't even be bothering, considering their Dragon Force modes aren't even strong enough to beat Natsu.

[Sliver]

Spoiler

Show

Sting and Rogue really shouldn't even be bothering, considering their Dragon Force modes aren't even strong enough to beat Natsu.

Spoiler

Show

But now they also have friendship, so together their friendship power might be enough to be equivalent to Natsu's friendship power.

[lord_khaine]

Gahh.. please stop reminding me of this, before i accidentially smashed my head though my keyboard..

[Sliver]

Gahh.. please stop reminding me of this, before i accidentially smashed my head though my keyboard..

Your diet seems to be short on friendship. You should add some more Friendship to your diet before you become monster-of-the-weak.

[LaZodiac]

Spoiler

Show

But now they also have friendship, so together their friendship power might be enough to be equivalent to Natsu's friendship power.

Oh Fairy Tail

I'll still never get why Sting's obvious connection with Lector wasn't counted as "real friendship". So silly.

[Mad Hattington]

Oh Fairy Tail

I'll still never get why Sting's obvious connection with Lector wasn't counted as "real friendship". So silly.

because he was an enemy of Fairy Tail. It's pretty obvious

[Sliver]

Evil Friendship is never as powerful as Good Friendship. Even if Natsu's might be more of a Chaotic-Friendship, he and Erza have the most powerful friendship of all. Protagonist-Friendship!

[Kato]

Friednship friendship friendship friendship? Friendship friendship, friendship. :friendship:


Okay, stupid jokes aside, we know the two most powerful forces in Earthland are a)friendship and b) being good. Except when you are up against the freaking dragon of Apocalypse (though I guess that's just a name humans gave him. His true name is probably Steve or soemthing.) Still, that means logic only comes into it when the plot demands it and now three DS who before couldn't really hold up to Mard have to win.. somehow. Because Erza's too busy elsewhere.

[lord_khaine]

Your diet seems to be short on friendship. You should add some more Friendship to your diet before you become monster-of-the-weak.

*Feels something snap mentally at the repeated usage of the word friendship, scratching the word HATE on the side of his keyboard, before going out on a clubbing rampage with it*

[Sith_Happens]

I'll still never get why Sting's obvious connection with Lector wasn't counted as "real friendship". So silly.

It was, but having one friend is never going to compare to an entire guild where everyone is friends with everyone else.

[LaZodiac]

It was, but having one friend is never going to compare to an entire guild where everyone is friends with everyone else.

How well does Natsu even know half of those people? Sting and Lector literally saved each other from spiraling into death via depression after Sting ate his dad. It's one of those things that bother me, Natsu's friendship with his guild isn't really THAT strong, he really only hangs out with Grey, Lucy, Erza, and Gajeel.

[Razade]

How well does Natsu even know half of those people? Sting and Lector literally saved each other from spiraling into death via depression after Sting ate his dad. It's one of those things that bother me, Natsu's friendship with his guild isn't really THAT strong, he really only hangs out with Grey, Lucy, Erza, and Gajeel.

Pretty sure we're supposed to beleive there's a strong connection from when he was a kid and when the camera isn't on them. Reading Natsu Bonds with is Guild would be even more boring than Fairy Tail, let's be honest.

[LaZodiac]

Pretty sure we're supposed to beleive there's a strong connection from when he was a kid and when the camera isn't on them. Reading Natsu Bonds with is Guild would be even more boring than Fairy Tail, let's be honest.

Maybe if the series was written better it might be more interesting. It'd be really cool, I think, to see more of the actual guild and seeing em do stuff. Like, maybe instead of a dozen stories about Erza being the absolute super best, lets hang out with those gun mages who get together during the timeskip and have a son who's basically trying to follow in Natsu's footsteps and also looks a bit like Zeref. That might be interesting!

[Razade]

Maybe if the series was written better it might be more interesting. It'd be really cool, I think, to see more of the actual guild and seeing em do stuff. Like, maybe instead of a dozen stories about Erza being the absolute super best, lets hang out with those gun mages who get together during the timeskip and have a son who's basically trying to follow in Natsu's footsteps and also looks a bit like Zeref. That might be interesting!

Actually delving into the side characters would be cool which is why I have been unable to dislike Fairy Tail Zero. I'm sure it'll get screwed up somehow though. Ezra not being interesting has always been a problem but it's one all the main cast really has. It didn't start off so bad but it's been the defining reason (and the poor writing) why it's been such a drag to read. And I blame the little Color Fire kid looking like Zeref on the fact that Hiro is terrible at character design. He can do some neat set designs but even Rave Master was a ton of reused faces and hairstyles. Of the Big Named manga out there, I think he's got some of the worst art outside of his action scenes. Even worse than Naruto and Bleach even.

[Sith_Happens]

How well does Natsu even know half of those people? Sting and Lector literally saved each other from spiraling into death via depression after Sting ate his dad. It's one of those things that bother me, Natsu's friendship with his guild isn't really THAT strong, he really only hangs out with Grey, Lucy, Erza, and Gajeel.

That's still four to one. Just going by the series' logic as I see it here.

Maybe if the series was written better it might be more interesting. It'd be really cool, I think, to see more of the actual guild and seeing em do stuff. Like, maybe instead of a dozen stories about Erza being the absolute super best, lets hang out with those gun mages who get together during the timeskip and have a son who's basically trying to follow in Natsu's footsteps and also looks a bit like Zeref. That might be interesting!

Did you just get Asca and Romeo mixed up? Because that's what it sounds like.

[LaZodiac]

That's still four to one. Just going by the series' logic as I see it here.



Did you just get Asca and Romeo mixed up? Because that's what it sounds like.

Yeah but they're just his best friends. Lector is literally Sting's truest, most absolute best friend. He is fighting to SAVE HIS LIFE from...whats her face killing him. All Natsu and Gajeel where doing in that fight was "trying to make us respectable again". It's just something that's always bugged me that petty reasons from our heroes are more "valid" as friendship then a guy trying to save the life of his one true friend.

*shrugs* no idea, I can't remember which of the two HAVE gun magic because literally all we know about them is that they have a son!

[Sith_Happens]

*shrugs* no idea, I can't remember which of the two HAVE gun magic because literally all we know about them is that they have a son!

They have a daughter. Zeref-Resembling Natsu Fanboy is Old Blue-Haired Fire Wizard's son.

[LaZodiac]

They have a daughter. Zeref-Resembling Natsu Fanboy is Old Blue-Haired Fire Wizard's son.

...right. My point stands!

[Soras Teva Gee]

Oh Fairy Tail

I'll still never get why Sting's obvious connection with Lector wasn't counted as "real friendship". So silly.

Because being an ******* arrogant jerk is Krytonite to Friendshiptonians.