Warhammer Fantasy Thread VI: The Undiscovered Country

**hamishspence** · 2014-02-15, 06:09 AM (ISO 8601)

Seeing as the old thread has lain fallow for a few months, I figured it was time for a new one.

Following Winterwind's lead of including links to previous threads & guides:

This thread is for everything related to Warhammer Fantasy Battles - fluff, rules, tactics, battlereports, whatever you can think of.

The previous threads are:
Thread I
Thread II - Now With Higher Combat Resolution!
Thread III - Ten More Threads And Everyone Is Clanrats!
Thread IV - Now With Maximum Spellcasting!
Thread V - First Rank Complete

Battle Report Archive
(Please note that some of these battle reports are from 7th edition)

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Overview of and Guides to Armies

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General overview of all armies, by Winterwind
Chaos Dwarfs, by Issabella
Daemons of Chaos, by Cheesegear
Dark Elves, by Issabella
High Elves, by Krypton
Lizardmen, by Borgh
Ogre Kingdoms, by Issabella
Orcs & Goblins, by Tehnar
Skaven, by Lost Demiurge
Tomb Kings, by HerbieRAI
Warriors of Chaos, by Penguinizer [old army book]
Wood Elves, by Winterwind

Other Guides

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External Links

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Every WHFB army has a website dedicated solely to it, full of discussions, guides and other useful information:

Beastmen: http://www.freewebs.com/herdstone/
Bretonnians: http://www.roundtable-bretonnia.org/
Chaos Dwarfs: http://www.chaos-dwarfs.com/index.php
Daemons of Chaos: http://z7.invisionfree.com/wyrmling_x/index.php
Dark Elves: http://www.druchii.net/
Dwarfs: http://www.bugmansbrewery.com/
Empire: http://www.warhammer-empire.com/
High Elves: http://www.ulthuan.net/
Lizardmen: http://www.lustria-online.com/ (old one: http://z1.invisionfree.com/Thee_Forsaken_One/index.php)
Ogre Kingdoms: http://www.ogrestronghold.com/forum/
Orcs&Goblins: http://www.da-warpath.com/
Skaven: http://underempire.net/index.php
Tomb Kings: http://s4.invisionfree.com/Khemri/index.php
Vampire Counts: http://www.vampirecounts.net/portal.php
Warriors of Chaos: http://z4.invisionfree.com/cotec/index.php
Wood Elves: http://www.asrai.org/

Starting topic: The most recent release: Warhammer Armies: Dwarves - came out today.

Any thoughts on the new Irondrakes/Ironbreakers dual kit?

**Eldan** · 2014-02-16, 10:46 AM (ISO 8601)

ONly had a chance to look at a few pages of the new army book in passing. I think most of the shop agreed that a lot of the runes don't seem worthwhile.

**Winterwind** · 2014-02-16, 01:28 PM (ISO 8601)

Oooh! I've been wanting to revive this thing for ages now, but never could decide whether it would be better to start a new thread, or try to obtain mod permission to revive the old one. Well done!

Haven't had much more than a glancing look on the new Dwarves myself, either, but any change along the lines of "give Dwarves more incentive to go into close combat" (Resolute, Shieldwall) combined with "give Dwarves less incentive to just sit there and ignore every phase except for shooting" (higher point cost for cannons) is just about the best change ever in my book. Maybe now Dwarves will stop being that thing that everybody adamantly refuses to play against because it is the most awful exercise in anti-fun possible in this game.

So yesterday I had the first (but assuredly not last) Apocalypse-type game for Fantasy (given the lack of official rules for anything like that, we made a set of houserules of our own). And it was amazing fun, even though my side got pretty much utterly crushed (and if not for Lord Kroak devastating the daemonic lines, it might well have been a wipe-out within three or four turns).

It was an alliance of Order consisting of 5.500 points of High Elves, 5.000 points of Wood Elves (=me), 3.500 points of Lizardmen and 1.000 points of Empire (before you ask, that player pretty much just wanted to watch, so don't feel bad for him), against a vile horde of 5.000 points of Warriors of Chaos, Daemons of Chaos and Skaven each, and as said, sadly, the forces of evil triumphed that day. I think we'll have to set this up differently somehow next time; at least by my gut feeling, the lists they brought were far stronger than ours (and given that, unlike them, each one of us pretty much brought all of our models, we couldn't have fielded more powerful lists than we did). Deployment mistakes on our part and horribly one-sided favoritism on part of the dice for the first turn (it kind of normalized later on, but by then the damage was done) sealed the deal. I think they realized it, too, so they opted to try to dispel Lord Kroak's Salvation of Itza twice in a row, instead of just using one of their dispel scrolls (failing both times), which at least stabilized one part of the front briefly, but when we ended the game after four turns, their victory was plainly obvious - I think had there been a fifth turn, we would have been utterly wiped off the table, and I don't think we'd gotten more than a quarter of their points.

More to the point (and probably more interesting for anyone reading this), here are the houserules we decided upon:

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* Allied units cause Panic tests when destroyed or fleeing through one's units
* Allied units are not treated as Dangerous Terrain when fleeing through them
* The effect of generals and BSBs applies only to one's own units, not allies
* Character models cannot join allied units

* For each 3.000 points per side, 2d6 power dice are generated (so, in our game, where each side had 15.000 points, we rolled 10d6). Those are distributed amongst the players according to the relative amount of points they brought (so, for example, since I'd brought 5.000 of those 15.000 points, I got one third of those power dice). The dispel dice are determined by the half of the dice rolled to generate the power dice that showed the highest number (so, in our game, the highest five of those ten d6). The maximum limits for how many power dice one may hold per turn are increased accordingly as well.
* Augment spells can only be cast on allied units if those allied units are from an army book that has access to that spell's lore (so, for example, since Wood Elves have access to Life and Beasts, the High Elf player could cast Life or Beasts augment spells on the Wood Elf units, but not, for example, High Magic augment spells).
* Lore attributes can never affect allied units.

* All global effects from items, spells or units are instead limited to 36" (like, for example, only Nurgle units killing things within 36" to Epidemius contribute to his count, and only Nurgle units within 36" of him benefit from his presence)

* No more than one Lord-level Special character per player.

* The usual limits of 25-% for Lords, Heroes and Rare, 50-% for Special and 25+% for Core still apply
* The limits of no more than three of a Special/two of a Rare choice are doubled if that player is fielding 3.000 or more points, tripled if s/he is fielding 6.000 or more points, quadrupled if s/he is fielding 9.000 or more points, and so on.
* Models from Storm of Magic and Monstrous Arcanum may be taken as well (without being subject to the rules for Scrolls of Binding or anything like that), and occupy a category of their own ("Legendary"), on which only up to 25% of one's points may be spent (as it happened though, none of us took advantage of that - for which I'm rather glad, as they, at least, could have fielded an Exalted Great Unclean One, had they so desired, and that thing is just disgustingly undercosted for what it does).

In retrospect, the 36" limit for global stuff was still not enough - given that the Chaos Warriors army consisted purely of Nurgle Warriors, Epidemius still got his count maxed within three turns at most, and facing units like 50 Plaguebearers, 6 Beasts of Nurgle or two Nurgle-Marked Daemon Princes is kind of devastating when that happens.

Also, something needs to be done about the Daemons of Chaos' Reign of Chaos table. This, you may note, would be the one thing that was still truly global (the argument was made that all Daemons pay for it in their point cost, so it can't just be nerfed like that). The problem is, of course, that only the Daemons pay for it (if they even do, who knows how GW determines their point costs), the other armies of their coalition don't - but they all benefit from the enemy side being wrecked by it.

Lastly, perhaps some limit on either how often spells may be cast using 6 dice or how often Irresistible Force can occur per turn are called for, since with those increased power dice pools, that happened kind of often.

**Eldan** · 2014-02-16, 02:43 PM (ISO 8601)

Oh yeah. Shield Wall. I forgot that, it's a fun rule.

Storm of Magic is, I guess, kind of an Apocalypse for Fantasy. It's just totally awful.

**Winterwind** · 2014-02-16, 03:12 PM (ISO 8601)

Originally Posted by Eldan

Storm of Magic is, I guess, kind of an Apocalypse for Fantasy. It's just totally awful.

Is it? When looking at what units there were in Storm of Magic, and whether I should try to get one of them (before deciding that, as stylish as a whole unit of Royal Unicorns would be, it would just be too expensive money-wise for too little actual power), I also skimmed through the rest of it again, and I kept thinking I'd kind of want to give it a try sometime; it seemed like it might be a fun way to mix things up a bit. (I seem to recall that you played a bunch of SoM games back in the day; what made them such a bad experience for you, then, if I may ask?)

Also, what do people here think of how one should set up a large-scale Warhammer game with multiple players per side, and what houserules would you all suggest? Our houserule-set seemed to make it fairly workable, but I was wondering if there maybe was something that might make it work even better.

**Eldan** · 2014-02-16, 03:46 PM (ISO 8601)

Our shop played a few games, yes. Either 1 on 1 or in teams of 3 or 4 people.

Know how a lot of people said that magic, especially some lores like death, is game-deciding and that you don't even have to play if you don't bring a wizard in larger games?

Storm of Magic is much, much worse. The three or four games I had, and a few more that I watched turned into "Wizards fight while other units run around being killed by them with leftover magic dice". Only the very worst death stars or strongest monsters (many of which are also casters) stayed relevant next to the magic. Core has spells that kill entire units. SoM has spells that kill several units.

**Winterwind** · 2014-02-17, 04:04 AM (ISO 8601)

Originally Posted by Eldan

Know how a lot of people said that magic, especially some lores like death, is game-deciding and that you don't even have to play if you don't bring a wizard in larger games?

To be fair, I'm not entirely sure whether the requirement for a wizard in larger games (and even not so large ones) is really a bad thing. There is a reason why Magic is an entire phase on its own; it being similarly impactful as Shooting and Close Combat seems just reasonable (Movement is where the main part of the game's tactics lie, so I feel it should be more important than the other ones), and after all, I don't think anyone would argue that "you don't even have to play if you don't bring anything that works in close combat" is a bad thing, so why should wizards be different?

I feel the bigger problem is that the way magic is being impactful is rather too arbitrary right now; it comes down to pure luck of dice rather than actual tactical savvy on the part of the players a little too much. Still, between figuring out the best order to cast which spells when with how many dice, figuring out which spells to dispel when with how many dice, when to burn the all-important dispel scroll, and occasionally even having to account for upcoming magic in one's units' movements, at least it's not a total no-brainer, either.

Originally Posted by Eldan

Storm of Magic is much, much worse. The three or four games I had, and a few more that I watched turned into "Wizards fight while other units run around being killed by them with leftover magic dice". Only the very worst death stars or strongest monsters (many of which are also casters) stayed relevant next to the magic. Core has spells that kill entire units. SoM has spells that kill several units.

Mmm, I see. Yeah, that definitely doesn't sound all that fun, indeed. Pity.

**Eldan** · 2014-02-17, 07:03 AM (ISO 8601)

It's a combination of a lot of factors, actually:

-Stronger spells. Read some of them. I remember the Lore of Nurgle or the Skaven Pestilence Lore had some pretty obscene spells.

-Easier spells and more dice. The winds of magic table means that some spells come into play much more regularly than normal.

-Protected wizards. I forgot what they are called, but there are these special locations wizards can stand on. Nodes? Vortices? Nexi? Something like that. There's some in every game. While on there, only one model at a time can attack the wizard. Which means they are suddenly very durable. The most effective method to remove them is another wizard using one of the special spells to push him off. A dedicated assassin or combat hero can do it too, but they have to get there first. While wizards are dropping terrain pieces on their heads.

Our shop has considered simply allowing every army one monster, similar to the old mercenary rules. That might work quite well, because the monsters were the fun part. I love my Clan Moulder Arachnarok spider, as an example.

**hamishspence** · 2014-02-17, 07:48 AM (ISO 8601)

Originally Posted by Eldan

-Protected wizards. I forgot what they are called, but there are these special locations wizards can stand on. Nodes? Vortices? Nexi? Something like that.

Fulcrums.

I could see SoM requiring a certain amount of "gentleman's agreement" if one wishes to play it without magic taking over completely- players agree not to occupy fulcrums or use cataclysm spells- take "un-upgraded" wizards and few of those, etc.

"Today we're having a Monster Mash, not a Wizard War".

**Tehnar** · 2014-02-17, 11:01 AM (ISO 8601)

I think you also get a 3++ if you are on one.

We don't do too much storm of magic, but we do allow monsters from that book as rare choices in any army. Works pretty well, its fun and balanced.

Though I was on a 40K bender for a while, I am going to go back to fantasy.

**Penguinizer** · 2014-02-17, 11:29 AM (ISO 8601)

I used to play WHFB, but I realized precisely how boring my WHFB army actually is. At least with the Chimera being there, I can have something that does more than walk forward and pray it rolls high enough on charge rolls. Then I either succeed in casting Occam's Mind Razor and wreck anything I run into or roll dice for the rest of the game.

**Tehnar** · 2014-02-17, 12:04 PM (ISO 8601)

Whatlist do you use? How much terrain do you generally use?

**Winterwind** · 2014-02-17, 01:22 PM (ISO 8601)

Originally Posted by Tehnar

Whatlist do you use? How much terrain do you generally use?

He plays (or at least, in the ancient times of the previous threads, used to play) Warriors of Chaos; there is one battle report of his in the Archive, with an army list.

I guess with WoC, depending on the opposition, the combination of them practically having no shooting, but being able to destroy just about anything and anyone in close combat, really can sometimes make the game a mere "walk forward, charge" kind of thing for them...

**Tome** · 2014-02-17, 01:38 PM (ISO 8601)

Originally Posted by Penguinizer

I used to play WHFB, but I realized precisely how boring my WHFB army actually is. At least with the Chimera being there, I can have something that does more than walk forward and pray it rolls high enough on charge rolls. Then I either succeed in casting Occam's Mind Razor and wreck anything I run into or roll dice for the rest of the game.

This was pretty much my experience. My army walked forwards and tried to get into combat. Sometimes I tried actual tactics and didn't just march everything forwards as quickly as possible, going for flanks and what have you, but then I just lost faster.

Magic was useless, because everyone else had buckets of bonus dispel dice.

My infantry was useless, because everyone else had tons of artillery.

Since I played Warriors of Chaos, that meant my entire army was useless.

If I ever try WFB again, I'll either trade in for Wood Elves (moving and shooting is really more my style... even if they are tree-hugging elves) or run a list with as many monsters as possible (I have a large number of appropriately sized dragon minis, they should make plausible counts-as chimeras or something).

**hamishspence** · 2014-02-17, 01:42 PM (ISO 8601)

Regarding Dwarfs- might be interesting to catalogue all the things they can do that they couldn't before, and all the things they can't do anymore.

New:

Can take Longbeards without taking Warriors

Can take lots of Gyrocopters (cheaper, Special, more than the normal number can be taken)

Can take multiple Ranger units

~~Can take multiple Miner units~~
(they had this ability in the last book though)

Can take multiple Anvils of Doom (though they are weaker)

Can take Engineering Runes on Organ Guns & Flame Cannons

Have access to 2 new units (Gyrobomber, Irondrakes)

Slayers can now wound Toughness 7+ units as easily as T6 units (however, there aren't many of those).

Dragon Slayers and Daemon Slayers have new special abilities

Lost:

The ability to pretty much shut down the magic phase (when geared toward that).

Ancient Power option for Anvil of Doom (and some Anvil effects are different - making a big change in tactical options)

These are the first things that spring to mind, at least.

**Tehnar** · 2014-02-17, 01:53 PM (ISO 8601)

Originally Posted by Tome

This was pretty much my experience. My army walked forwards and tried to get into combat. Sometimes I tried actual tactics and didn't just march everything forwards as quickly as possible, going for flanks and what have you, but then I just lost faster.

Magic was useless, because everyone else had buckets of bonus dispel dice.

My infantry was useless, because everyone else had tons of artillery.

Since I played Warriors of Chaos, that meant my entire army was useless.

If I ever try WFB again, I'll either trade in for Wood Elves (moving and shooting is really more my style... even if they are tree-hugging elves) or run a list with as many monsters as possible (I have a large number of appropriately sized dragon minis, they should make plausible counts-as chimeras or something).

Thats not my experience with WoC at all. Except for Dwarfs (who got a reduced number of bonus dice as I hear) I don't think any army can reliably dispel most spells.

Also my games with WoC usually boil down to me trying to use chaff to redirect while trying to get into good matchups, while he tries to deal with redirectors (I play Orcs).

Also I find Hellcannons to be a very good type of shooting, if not the BS type.

**Winterwind** · 2014-02-17, 02:29 PM (ISO 8601)

Originally Posted by Tome

This was pretty much my experience. My army walked forwards and tried to get into combat. Sometimes I tried actual tactics and didn't just march everything forwards as quickly as possible, going for flanks and what have you, but then I just lost faster.

Magic was useless, because everyone else had buckets of bonus dispel dice.

My infantry was useless, because everyone else had tons of artillery.

Since I played Warriors of Chaos, that meant my entire army was useless.

This kind of sounds like either your metagame consisted of nothing but Dwarfs and Empire (at least the former one of which were generally considered so anti-fun around here that everybody refused to play against them on principle - one big reason why everyone was looking forward to this new Dwarfs armybook so much, really), or you were playing in the 7th edition only (where, yes, it was "bring 5+ mages or bring none", something that's been completely fixed by 8th edition). Otherwise I really don't see how this "everyone else had buckets of bonus dispel dice" could be possible, and there shouldn't be that much artillery around, either.

**LCP** · 2014-02-17, 03:11 PM (ISO 8601)

Re: Storm of Magic, and by extension expansions - I tried Triumph and Treachery recently, and it was a blast. I'd highly recommend it.

Originally Posted by hamishspence

Regarding Dwarfs- might be interesting to catalogue all the things they can do that they couldn't before, and all the things they can't do anymore.

[...]

I kind of feel positive about this list. All the shiny new toys are not about sitting at the back with a line of guns (except for the extended access to engineering runes), and the end of "no magic phase for you!" means that a dwarf player actually has to be wary about sitting on his arse for the whole game - he's not the only one with ranged capabilities the other player can't match.

**Tome** · 2014-02-17, 10:38 PM (ISO 8601)

Originally Posted by Winterwind

This kind of sounds like either your metagame consisted of nothing but Dwarfs and Empire >SNIP<

It did. It was also rather competitive.

**Hootman** · 2014-02-18, 01:31 AM (ISO 8601)

Does anyone think it's possible for a Tomb King army to have too many chariots? I will have something like 21 of the things when I finally get around to building them all, which I found to my amusement is the exact number required to be able to have S10 Impact Hits if you cram them into one unit. (Not that I intend to do that...often...)

Now, don't get me wrong, I love my chariots. That's precisely why I have so many. I'm just curious if, from a tactical perspective, having 'THEY WILL BOW BEFORE THE PHARAOH OR BE CRUSHED BENEATH HIS WHEELS' as my primary strategy will end badly for me. All thoughts welcome while I try to figure out what units aside from "Counts-as Bone Giant" and "I can't use my Khalida model because she's about 200 points too expensive" I want for my pile of bones pretending to be a Tomb King army.

**Tehnar** · 2014-02-18, 02:07 AM (ISO 8601)

I think chariot army would go well with Setra (if I recall he gives out WS 7, so getting hit on 5's vs most things is good).

If I were to use 21 chariots, I would probably go 3 units of 6, with 3 solo for redirection purposes. Or two big units of 9 and 3 solo redirectors.

**Eldan** · 2014-02-18, 02:46 AM (ISO 8601)

Originally Posted by LCP

Re: Storm of Magic, and by extension expansions - I tried Triumph and Treachery recently, and it was a blast. I'd highly recommend it.

What is it? I saw a sealed copy at the game store, but no one, including the owners, knew what it was about, exactly. Just new rules? New scenarios?

**Winterwind** · 2014-02-18, 04:10 AM (ISO 8601)

Originally Posted by Eldan

What is it? I saw a sealed copy at the game store, but no one, including the owners, knew what it was about, exactly. Just new rules? New scenarios?

I haven't read it or played with it myself yet, either, but I was told that it is, first and foremost, rules for Free-For-All Warhammer - games where you don't have just two sides clashing, but three or more. Plus mercenaries. And the people telling me about it seemed to have a fairly favourable impression of it as well.

**LCP** · 2014-02-18, 04:29 AM (ISO 8601)

Yeah, it's multiplayer WFB. Rules for adapting the base game + counters and cards for expanding it. I think it's been written very well to keep everyone involved and having fun, even when it's not your own turn.

Some key points are:

You can spend VPs as well as gain them.
You can only nominate one enemy player to target in each phase.
The order of player turns inside each game turn is randomised.

**HerbieRAI** · 2014-02-18, 05:43 PM (ISO 8601)

I'm going to have to look for those rules, I've always wanted to try a few multiplayer free for all type of games.

As for the new dwarfs, I'm a bit worried they are going to end up playing just like the old book. Nothing seems to push away from a gunline, and the new gyro copters seem to just help that build with delay tactics.

**Hootman** · 2014-02-19, 02:55 AM (ISO 8601)

On the other hand, the gyros look sweet and I can't wait to loot one for my 40k Orks.

Speaking of "not its intended purpose", can anyone recommend a particular dwarf character or other kit containing pieces that would make a great paladin mini? I could use a custom job for a Pathfinder game, but I haven't looked into it yet.

**Penguinizer** · 2014-02-19, 06:03 PM (ISO 8601)

Originally Posted by Tehnar

Whatlist do you use? How much terrain do you generally use?

It was, in no particular order: 28 Warriors (w. Shields,Command, MoT), 2x32 Marauders (w. Shields, Command. Shields since the historical minis I got only had shields+axes as an option), Chimera, 5 Khorne Knights(Command, Ensorcerelled Weapons), Exalted Hero (w. MoT, 5+ Ward, BSB, Halberd), L4 Sorcerer(4+ Ward, Enchanted Shield, Biting Blade, Item I forgot), L2 Sorcerer (Mark of Nurgle, Dispel Scroll).

I may or may not have also had a Warshrine to fill points, since I still have two of those from when they did things other than redirect flank charges.

**Tehnar** · 2014-02-24, 06:34 AM (ISO 8601)

Looking at your list, aside from the Khorne knights, nothing you have is really killy.

The warriors play well as a tarpit, and against T3 low armor are even killy, but anything tougher then that they struggle against.

**Penguinizer** · 2014-02-24, 10:31 AM (ISO 8601)

Originally Posted by Tehnar

Looking at your list, aside from the Khorne knights, nothing you have is really killy.

The warriors play well as a tarpit, and against T3 low armor are even killy, but anything tougher then that they struggle against.

That's mainly what Occam's Mindrazor was for. That being said, nothing else would have worked any better against Dwarves.

The WoC book items are all utterly useless or far too overpriced, aside from the Blasted Standard which was also nerfed. The new mutations are a refreshing improvement in that there's one that's hilariously overpowered if you abuse it (Third Eye of Tzeentch) and a few that are ok. Sadly, it doesn't help the fact that I only have a few viable options.

My options boiled down to:
Level 4 Sorcerer with Lore of Shadows with a ward save, enchanted shield and maybe a cheap magic sword and a Chaos Familiar (to near guarantee I get Occam's Mindrazor).

A Battle Standard Bearer with a ward save, cheap magic sword and shield. (Because BSBs are a must.)

Warriors with filled Marauders. The (deserved) nerf to chosen meant that the only troop choices I have are cheap Marauders and Warriors. Forsaken are bad as they always have been, Warhounds are cheap filler at most, Marauder Horsemen cost too much for something that dies if you as much as look at them funny. Not to mention the fact that their mediocre stats leave them as mediocre charge redirectors.

As for Special units. I have no idea about Hellstriders, but they like better Marauder Horsemen. With the way Chosen and Warshrines are now, they aren't really worth taking. Chaos Ogres, Dragon Ogres and Chaos Trolls are unchanged from the last book and remain equally uninteresting.

Chaos Knights are still good, no real complaints there. Chimerae seem solid enough. Warshrines remain cheap but far less useful.

As for Rares, there's just a whole lot of nothing aside from the Hellcanon and Skullcrushers.

So, essentially, I chose to quit. My only other choice was to rebuild my entire army and pray GW doesn't decide to flip things so there's a new FotM with the next book.

**Winterwind** · 2014-02-24, 10:48 AM (ISO 8601)

The local Warriors of Chaos players seem to be doing by far the best of all the players around here; however, I'd probably put that mostly to them being more competitively minded, whereas everybody else doesn't seem to be very competitive at all. Or maybe they're just better players. Probably a mix of the two.

One of them plays an (almost) pure Nurgle army, the other a pure Tzeentch army. Both rely heavily on their ludicrously pimped out Daemon Princes, backed by Chariots and (in the Nurgle player's case) Nurgle Warriors with Halberds, Marauders with... I don't remember what, and Skullcrushers (hence the above "almost"), respectively (in the Tzeentch player's case) Tzeentch Warriors with Shields and Chaos Trolls.

Both of which I can't imagine would do all that well against gunlines, but then, they totally dominate the scene here, so I guess I don't know.

This said - were I to play in an environment that consisted of nothing but gunlines, I'd quit in a heartbeat as well (and I've long had the policy of just straight-up refusing to play against Dwarfs, period - though I'm lifting that for now until I see whether the new Dwarfs still warrant it or not). I detest games where one side chooses to just completely ignore the movement phase - what kind of strategy game is that?

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