Warhammer Fantasy Thread VI: The Undiscovered Country

[Penguinizer]

Yeah, you can make a strong army that I don't disagree with. It's the fact that they basically made it so that you had to rebuild your entire army from scratch. Skullcrushers are pretty much just outright better than knights, they nerfed the troop options so you're pretty much left with Chariots.

The fact that they nerfed Lore of Tzeentch is the most hilarious thing to me. They took a lore that was good, but didn't stand up to the ludicrousness of the main book lores, and just made it worse. Oh, but don't worry, you get to pick from Lore of Metal. The most useless of all the lores.

[HerbieRAI]

Metal works pretty well as a secondary lore, as in if you have a backup level 2 mage or scroll caddy giving them lore of metal can help out a lot. Most of the powerhouse armies (WoC, Empire, the scary Ogre units) are heavy armor, which is where the signiture spell of metal shines.

I'm just trying to say when it comes to uselessness i think beasts, fire, and heavens are worse than metal which puts metal near the middle of the pack. It just doesn't shine as much as the game breaking shadow and life.

[Winterwind]

Metal works pretty well as a secondary lore, as in if you have a backup level 2 mage or scroll caddy giving them lore of metal can help out a lot. Most of the powerhouse armies (WoC, Empire, the scary Ogre units) are heavy armor, which is where the signiture spell of metal shines.

I'm just trying to say when it comes to uselessness i think beasts, fire, and heavens are worse than metal which puts metal near the middle of the pack. It just doesn't shine as much as the game breaking shadow and life.

I agree. I used to put Metal fairly low in my rankings, but have since completely changed my opinion; it is a very decent lore, and while it's difficult to (and most likely ultimately pointless) to make a definitive top-to-bottom list of the lores due to how situational everything about magic is, I would actually put Life, Shadow and Death as the only lores that can be said with any degree of safety to be "better" than Metal.

[Winterwind]

So I will be playing in a campaign soon, using the Mighty Empires map thingy and additional rules for capturing and holding tiles, winner is the first to control 10 tiles or whoever happens to control the most tiles at the end of 2014. I'll be bringing my Wood Elves; besides me, there is one each of High Elves, Warriors of Chaos, Skaven, Dwarfs, Tomb Kings, Orcs & Goblins and Lizardmen.

We are to use the same (2.500 points) army list throughout the campaign (one can switch it out, but that costs the special kind of points that are normally necessary in Mighty Empires to conquer new tiles, so, should be avoided if at all possible), unless a new armybook comes out for the army in question (which might very well end up benefiting me, but we shall see ).

So, since I haven't played Fantasy all that much lately, and also because I figure that with Wood Elves, I can use all the help I can get, I thought maybe I could get some list writing help here? Here is what I was planning on going with:

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1 Lord: 320 Pts. 12.8%
1 Hero: 142 Pts. 5.6%
6 Core Units: 958 Pts. 38.3%
2 Elite Units: 455 Pts. 18.2%
3 Rare Units: 620 Pts. 24.8%

*************** 1 Lord ***************

Spellweaver, General, Level 4 Upgrade
+ Talisman of Preservation, Dispell Scroll
+ Lore of Life
- - - > 320 Points

*************** 1 Hero ***************

Noble, Light Armour
+ Asyendi's Bane, Hail of Doom Arrow, Dragonhelm
+ Battlestandard Bearer
- - - > 142 Points

*************** 6 Core Units ***************

12 Dryads
- - - > 144 Points

12 Dryads
- - - > 144 Points

15 Glade Guard, Musician, Standardbearer, Champion
+ Banner of Eternal Flame
- - - > 214 Points

15 Glade Guard, Musician, Standardbearer, Champion
- - - > 204 Points

10 Glade Guard, Musician
- - - > 126 Points

10 Glade Guard, Musician
- - - > 126 Points

*************** 2 Elite Units ***************

4 Treekin
- - - > 260 Points

3 Treekin
- - - > 195 Points

*************** 3 Rare Units ***************

Treeman
- - - > 285 Points

Treeman
- - - > 285 Points

Great Eagle
- - - > 50 Points

Total Points Woodelves : 2495

It feels very odd to me to be going into battle with no Waywatchers, but I think most of the time, a second Treeman is likely to benefit me more. (Do you think I'm right? )

It also feels odd to not be taking the Wand of the Wych Elm (re-rolls to all of my dispel rolls), but again I suspect having a more reliable chance to stop that killer spell in round 1 or 2 is going to give me more benefit than that (plus, it's 30 points saved this way). But, I'm very much on the edge when it comes to this one.

As for the rest of the list, well, what do you think? Anything I could do better? The models I have that I am not using are:

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- Highborn on Dragon
- Noble/Highborn on foot
- Noble/Highborn on horse
- BSB on horse
- Branchwraith
- 2 Spellweavers/Spellsingers
- 12 Dryads
- 25 Eternal Guard
- 6 Glade Guard
- 12 Wardancers
- 12 Waywatchers
- 10 Glade Riders
- 10 Wild Riders
- 1 Treekin
- 1 Great Eagle

[HerbieRAI]

With a level 4 the Wych Elm might be a better option, even for 30 more points. Reason being any Uberspell in teh first 2 rounds are going to be 6diced and if they get off it will probably be irristable. I haven't done the math, but I think you'll have better chances at getting 2 double 6 dispells throughout a game with re-rolls than getting the 1 assured dispell scroll. Also, I think you are going to be more vernable to magic with a second treeman.

I had an amazing game last night with my OnG against WoC. My level 4 Savage Orc Shaman with his 40 savage Orcs decided to squabble for the first 2 rounds in a house. (they cannot declare a charge while exiting a building, and anamosity says if you cannot declare a charge you cannot cast either). This of course lets his nasties take out my night goblin archers and some artillary. Then I had 2 magic phases with 2 dice, and on turn 5 I rolled double 1's for casting the first spell. He let me re-roll and I got double 1's again. I had nothing left turn 6.

Over the game I only successfully casted 1 spell, which was scrolled. His 2 Chimeras each had 3 wounds on them, and his special character dragon ogre had taken 7 wounds out of his 8. I took his bloodcrushers down to one model with two wounds left, and put 1 wound on his BSB that was with the crushers. The only 2 unhurt units of his was his level 2 mage on a disc (his only caster), and a hellcannon.

[Winterwind]

With a level 4 the Wych Elm might be a better option, even for 30 more points. Reason being any Uberspell in teh first 2 rounds are going to be 6diced and if they get off it will probably be irristable. I haven't done the math, but I think you'll have better chances at getting 2 double 6 dispells throughout a game with re-rolls than getting the 1 assured dispell scroll.

Hmmm... yeah, you're probably right. Wand of the Wych Elm it is.

Also, I think you are going to be more vernable to magic with a second treeman.

Aye, probably - half the armies that participate have low Initiative, so I imagine that while not everyone is necessarily going to take Shadow or Death (or Ruin), some probably will.

On the other hand, if I have only one Treeman, I still present a target for such spells for them, except if they pull it off then, I'm left with no big monsters at all - this way, I at least keep one. Also, I suspect most of the time a Treeman is going to impact the game more than a group of Waywatchers would - though they sure would be nice against warmachines and small, heavily armoured groups. Which, I guess, amounts to "I still don't know".

Thanks for the help thus far!
Any further comments?

I had an amazing game last night with my OnG against WoC. My level 4 Savage Orc Shaman with his 40 savage Orcs decided to squabble for the first 2 rounds in a house. (they cannot declare a charge while exiting a building, and anamosity says if you cannot declare a charge you cannot cast either). This of course lets his nasties take out my night goblin archers and some artillary. Then I had 2 magic phases with 2 dice, and on turn 5 I rolled double 1's for casting the first spell. He let me re-roll and I got double 1's again. I had nothing left turn 6.

Over the game I only successfully casted 1 spell, which was scrolled. His 2 Chimeras each had 3 wounds on them, and his special character dragon ogre had taken 7 wounds out of his 8. I took his bloodcrushers down to one model with two wounds left, and put 1 wound on his BSB that was with the crushers. The only 2 unhurt units of his was his level 2 mage on a disc (his only caster), and a hellcannon.

Oh wow. Tzeentch must have favoured your opponent greatly. Have you checked your dice for possession? You don't want to, you know, just casually roll, and then suddenly, bang, Lord of Change.

[Winterwind]

I believe the thread is still within the time frame where it's not thread necromancy, so I'll take this opportunity to revive it, while it's still legal.
(As an aside, how come it keeps falling off like this, while the 40k thread keeps going strong? I've played at several clubs now, and WHFB was always either about as popular as 40k, or notably more popular!)

Anyways... given that I've finally largely gotten through my backlog of miniatures to assemble (and to a large degree to paint, too), I was thinking about maybe starting a new army soon-ish-ly. And ever since the current Vampire Counts book came out, I had been wanting to get some of those beautiful models anyway, so, I think I shall do just that now.

Specifically, I was thinking about a chariot/cavalry army (because it would be something different than my other, usually rather infantry-heavy armies, and also because those are the models that I, for the most part, like the most). I realize cavalry is not exactly at its zenith in the current edition, but I've seen at least Warriors of Chaos pull off decent chariot/cavalry lists, and I figure, Vampire Counts might be able to pull it off as well. So, that would mean at least one Coven Throne, a Black Coach, some Black Knights, some Hexwraiths. Maybe a Mortis Engine. Probably a few out-of-concept units, like maybe some Vargheists or Crypt Horrors, maybe a Grave Guard block, probably some Wraiths, but preferably not too much of it.

Now my questions:
- Do you think such a concept is viable? If not, what would it take to make it so?
- What would be the best Core choice for such an army? Dire Wolves would obviously match the speed of the list best, but I'm not quite sold on their qualities in any role other than minimum sized units for redirecting and screening from shooting attacks.
- A BSB can go on a Coven Throne, right? At least, I don't see anything that would make that illegal. Do you think that would be a bad idea?
- What character models and in what position would likely work best? Like, who goes on the Coven Throne - the general, the BSB? Should one go with one of the cavalry units? Stick to one of the few infantry blocks?

Thanks for any answers!

[Eldan]

I really don't know why people don't want to talk about Fantasy. Over here, too, it's far more popular than 40k.

Can't really comment on your army. My vampires are sitting around largely unpainted and I only played them two or three times.

[Tehnar]

I was not playing any WFB in the last year, but as I recall a strong Vampire build is a Black Knight bus. With a skeleton bunker for the necromancers.

Though Woodies are supposed to be out soon, might want to wait until we see what stuff they will change.

[Tome]

I've been thinking about it, and Wood Elves might suit my play style a bit better than WoC. I might just sell my Warriors and pick them up if I like their new book.

I've always preferred 'move and shoot' as opposed to 'walk directly at the enemy', so hopefully they'll fit me better and I can actually have some fun playing WHFB for once.

Though I doubt I'll feel any less dirty for playing a bunch of tree-hugging elves.

[Eldan]

Play a monster list, then! Or a conversion. Claim they are humans from Albion. Use ugly giants instead of treemen, call them Fomorians. Done.

[Winterwind]

Can't really comment on your army. My vampires are sitting around largely unpainted and I only played them two or three times.

May I ask why that is? Just didn't have any opportunity to play them, or did you find them not fun to play in practice (and if so, please elaborate?), or what?

I was not playing any WFB in the last year, but as I recall a strong Vampire build is a Black Knight bus. With a skeleton bunker for the necromancers.

Huh. Alright, that sounds promising.

Though Woodies are supposed to be out soon, might want to wait until we see what stuff they will change.

Ah, but I already have over 6.000 points of Wood Elves. I'm pretty sure that I'll have the models to adjust no matter what; I'll probably just want to get a little of whatever new stuff they'll add, then I should be fine.

Though I doubt I'll feel any less dirty for playing a bunch of tree-hugging elves.

Hey!





Another question on the matter of Vampires: Is it even advised to bring a BSB with them? I mean, the effects seem rather lackluster, for an army that is all Unbreakable and ItP...

[Tehnar]

The Black Knight bus is mostly a Vampire delivery system. Since with that you will probably have 3+ vampires in the front rank, a BSB can't really hurt, but probably won't help much either. Some skeletons to get banners, dire wolves for redirection, terrorgeist(s) and a Mortis Engine and you are pretty set.

[Eldan]

I can't really say. I quite like the models and the army isn't bad in practise. My build, perhaps (a ghoul-centred army, plus the various ghoul- and bat-derived monsters), but not the army. It was just that every game I tried painting them, the back of my mind went "You could play that, or you could build another custom Skaven Warmachine and then play that." It's not really a contest. I still have 1500 points or so of various monsters.

[Winterwind]

The Black Knight bus is mostly a Vampire delivery system. Since with that you will probably have 3+ vampires in the front rank, a BSB can't really hurt, but probably won't help much either. Some skeletons to get banners, dire wolves for redirection, terrorgeist(s) and a Mortis Engine and you are pretty set.

Sounds good! Thank you!

How good are Mortis Engines anyway? The model is great, and they would fit into my army concept perfectly, but I'm not sure they are durable enough (Coven Thrones at least have a ward save instead of Regeneration, and also the additional layer of protection with Battle of Wills).

Also, I'm not sure what to think about that Blasphemous Tome upgrade. The effect is nice, but the potential to backfire sounds absolutely horrible.

I can't really say. I quite like the models and the army isn't bad in practise. My build, perhaps (a ghoul-centred army, plus the various ghoul- and bat-derived monsters), but not the army. It was just that every game I tried painting them, the back of my mind went "You could play that, or you could build another custom Skaven Warmachine and then play that." It's not really a contest. I still have 1500 points or so of various monsters.

Ah, I see. Alright, thanks.

[Tome]

Play a monster list, then! Or a conversion. Claim they are humans from Albion. Use ugly giants instead of treemen, call them Fomorians. Done.

A monster list would be missing the point of switching to WEs, I'm in it for the skirmishers with bows.

I will probably end up using mostly conversions though.

[Ishikar]

Been away from the forums a bit for other things but I've got Vampires as my primary army and figured I'd throw out some points from what I've seen.

1) Mortis engines are cannon bait and a liability when they get hit because to make them work, they will be right where they'll hit a huge chunk of your army. The Lore of Vampires has the regen spell as it's signature and you don't take leadership for losses so that's where a lot of your staying power will be. It's a crying shame too because the model is very cool but I just don't have use for them so the 2 I bought are languishing in boxed obscurity.

2) Most everything in your list is a "Vampire Delivery System" because point for point vampire counts REALLY don't stack up against similar models outside heros/lords. The regen helps a bit with that but you really need to pick your battles well or combat resolution just adds insult to injury. It wouldn't be so bad if fear was a bit better but it really had to come down from where it was a few editions ago (i.e. your units do nothing and auto-break).

3) NEVER MAKE YOUR GENERAL A GRADE 4 WIZARD!! Just don't. It may be passable in a lower point game if you need that spell power but once you get high enough make the general a level 1 Vamp Lord with the signature spell and leave casting to a grade 4 Master Necro. Your army just falls apart if the general goes (makes Chaos Demons SOOO fun... stupid "Your wizard dies off of a 3d6 leadership test and becomes my herald") and even if you pick up the next turn the damage is done since it's almost impossible to NOT fail instability by at least some margin (at least it's not the whole unit on 1 roll anymore).

Now as far as the questions go, I'd point you at Skeles and Zombies with maybe a hammer unit of Ghouls. You'll want the first two to tarpit units until you can get the proper force applied where needed and the zombie units don't have to be too large to begin with (2d6+lvl zombies per cast fills fast, especially if you catch with overlapping casts for multiple rolls) but they'll go down in a hurry so you'll need it.

A good arrangement for the bus would be as such:

13x Black Knights, Vampire Lord, Wight King BSB (banner of Barrows). The Lord will slow this unit down by 1" since he cannot ride a skeletal steed. Occasionally I'll run 12 knights and put a grade 4 in there to regen the unit 5 per cast (5 front is full command, BSB, and Lord so necro hides in 2nd row) but the bus is typically far enough out to make the extra casting oomph wasted for the rest of your army.

As for the rest of the units:

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Coven Throne - Not ideal but a nice fluff piece. Put a hero on it but not your general or BSB because anything big with a character is now cannon bait.

Mortis Engines - Nice but kinda iffy on use for the randomness and chance to kill your models if they get cannoned (an endimic problem in 8th ed fantasy)

Blood Knights - GW was smoking crack on pricing these guys ($20 per model for non-character models?) but they hit pretty hard when you use them. Less ideal than Black Knights for your lord because it regens slower with fewer bodies (1 per cast vs. 1+lvl). 4 or 5 of them with the flaming banner will tear apart a monster or other big solo nasty.

Vargheists - Flyers who hit really hard, useful for making your opponent give up a flank charge when maneuvering with your cav. Don't tie them in head on in a fight because they are not resilient models and will shred easily.

Varghulf - Keeps up with your cav and can really do some damage in combat, being a monster solo means that he'll probably get whacked by anything set for fighting monsters or monstrous cav without support.

Black Knights - The preferred cav of the vampire bus and made more solid by filling in with a wight king bsb with the banner of the barrows to make them hit more often (if you opponent fails fear on the turn they charge it's gonna hurt to eat that many S6 2+ to hit attacks).

Core

Ghouls - A solid hammer unit, they're like beastmen in that they rely on T4 to stay alive and pile on attacks to turn res in their favor. I like having 1 block to work on large infantry blocks or to keep my opponent's tar pits from countering mine or tarpitting something more important.

Skeletons/Zombies - Tarpits, every list works better with them and they also help you pick your battles. Skeles last a bit better but zombies just grow to absurd levels if left alone. Use Skeletons as an anvil unit and keep anything important out of any combat with zombies involved (your opponent will throw all the attacks they can at the zombies and let combat res eat the important stuff).

Wolves - Nice chaff/redirection but they can't tarpit or fight as the other options. Denying/delaying charges is very useful and they can chase down warmachines pretty quickly but they're still not enough to be your sole core choice.

I don't have Army builder or anything like that available at the moment but I'd rough out something like what follows for a cav list around 2500 points.

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Lords:
Blender lord on mount (lore of vamps, general)
Lvl 4 Master Necro (lore of vamps) on mount

Heros:
Wight King BSB mounted with banner of barrows.
Lvl 2 Necro
Lvl 2 Necro

Core:

20x ghouls (28 if they'll fit)
30x skeles (full command)
30x skeles (full command)
25x zombies
25x zombies
5x wolves
5x wolves

Special
12x black Knights (full command w/lances)
15x Black Knights (full command w/lances)
Fill in with Vargheists/Black Knights/Grave Guard as needed.

It's a list that fields a lot of mobility and the lord and his unit will hit like a truck. Be careful to not have your lord be challenge buried because he'll still likely win but he won't get as much combat res most times if he's challenged. Skeletons are your necro bunkers (I like going lore of vamps but death is strong too). If you do go vamps roll for your little necros fist and hope one of them gets van hel's, then laugh your way to the bank as you move 12" a turn with your wall o' infantry.

[HerbieRAI]

I've never played as vampires, but I have played as Tomb Kings, and in my experience BSBs aren't necessary for undead, since usually that 1 wound wont change things much.

EDIT: Unless you plan on getting a magic banner, in which case the BSB is used for the magic banner more than the BSB rules.

Also, make sure to play test tar pit units in general before buying them. The numbers required lead to very expensive units, and it's absurdly annoying to see a units of 50 skeletons disappear after the second round of combat. The unbreakable rule trumps steadfast in a very negative way. I'm not saying they can't be used, they just work a lot worse than goblins, skaven, and other tar pit units and I think you should play test before spending the money and paint time.

[Ishikar]

BSB is a lot less important to undead armies than others but it still helps for combat res a bit. I guess you could stick the banner of the barrows on the standard bearer for the unit (probably better that way, can't snipe it out as easily, I forget that that books good banner can go in a unit where Beastmen has to be on the BSB). Putting it on the wight let's it jump units if the unit is cut out from beneath them.

The real purpose of the Wight King BSB is a challenge bait, with the champion and wight king there you can have 2 ablative challenges for fights you don't want your Lord going into.

As for the unstable rule, yeah it sucks but that's why picking fights is so important. Other books can go 1v1 and use steadfast tarpits so that 100 clanrat slaves can keep that unit of 20 chaos warriors killing for multiple turns and never run but VC (and tomb kings) can't because a -10 combat res is 2 more dead ranks. As for a 50 man skele block blowing up in 2 turns that's pretty extreme. Our basic infantry isn't great but it's not that bad (well zombies are but that's different, you can summon whole units with a spell). I bought Mantic zombies because they were cheaper and better quality than the GW ones (Oh lord are those models bad) so it's not "official" for a GW event but GW doesn't do tournament support so much anymore. Proxy testing is always good to do as well (I'm going to be proxying Malifaux as Bushido tomorrow as a matter of fact) just make sure that your opponent is okay with it.

I like the undead as an army even despite some frustrating things (Fear isn't worth the points it takes to make it effective) and the drastically more punishing combat res (60 some odd zombie tar pit knocked to single digits in one charge by high elf swordmasters). You really have to play it more strategically and elite armies can roflstomp you but it's much better than "My witch horde and cauldron run over your army". Watch demons though because 11 on the winds of magic can screw you HARD because all the worthwhile leadership are magic users.

All in all it's nice and a decent change of pace from what my 40K army turned into, I'm sad that only eldar trump Tau now in the general view of that game. I like my anime robot army but now it's considered bandwagon cheesing to use it

[Winterwind]

Been away from the forums a bit for other things but I've got Vampires as my primary army and figured I'd throw out some points from what I've seen.
*stuff*

Oh, wow! Thank you so much! That was just the sort of detailed, helpful advice I was looking for!

All duly noted and shall be remembered.

I've never played as vampires, but I have played as Tomb Kings, and in my experience BSBs aren't necessary for undead, since usually that 1 wound wont change things much.

Though I guess Vampires do have a bunch of units with Frenzy (like Vargheists), and a BSB might be useful for preventing them from charging in when one doesn't want them to, or charging the wrong things.

Also, make sure to play test tar pit units in general before buying them. The numbers required lead to very expensive units, and it's absurdly annoying to see a units of 50 skeletons disappear after the second round of combat. The unbreakable rule trumps steadfast in a very negative way. I'm not saying they can't be used, they just work a lot worse than goblins, skaven, and other tar pit units and I think you should play test before spending the money and paint time.

All the more since I've never played any army that wasn't an elite army with rather few models, regardless of system, ever. >.>

I'm going to be proxying Malifaux as Bushido tomorrow as a matter of fact

Woo! Malifaux!
We should get a thread for that at some point, too.

All in all it's nice and a decent change of pace from what my 40K army turned into, I'm sad that only eldar trump Tau now in the general view of that game. I like my anime robot army but now it's considered bandwagon cheesing to use it

As an Eldar player, I soooo know that pain. I'd been hoping for a new codex for ages, and now that I have one, I almost don't play my favourite army anymore.

[Eldan]

I solved that problem by only ever playing my one serpent. Also, by being terrible at 40k and always losing.

[Ishikar]

I just realized I forgot to mention a model that is absolutely worth every point that the vampire counts can take (and is the only large mount for a character that I've seen recommended), the Terrorgeist.

This beast will do a LOT of damage with it's screams and the use of flight to keep it out of charge arcs is huge because for something so big it's VERY fragile. Watch out for anything shooty because they'll just do mass fire to hunt 6s and kill it but the scream is a beautiful way to kill blocks of models (the first time I box-cared the die roll and took off a rank and a half of dwarves was fun, he came prepared for it next game though). It's all the better because it auto-hits in range and can be fired into melee without any penalty, you get your lord and his cav unit stuck somewhere and this guy will help clear the road. It's also one of the few models that I've seen people run a mounted lord on because having 3 of them is just disgusting in what it can do to your opponent.

Sadly I haven't really been able to play much in the past few weeks because games tend to run in cycles and my group is more focused on skirmish style games over larger games now. I need to hurry up and finish painting the army though so I can move on to my beastmen or Tau more fully but I haven't been as motivated to paint since we ran the slow growth league. I do have my Vargheists, Varghulfs, Skeletons, most of my Grave guard, about half my zombies, and the characters done but that still leaves a LOT of fun stuff like cavalry and the BIG monsters.

As for the frenzy comment on vampire counts the Vargheists are the only ones I can think of that really have an issue but you can get around that with moon-walking them once it's close enough to be an issue.

[hamishspence]

Any thoughts on the new Wood Elf models?

[Winterwind]

I just realized I forgot to mention a model that is absolutely worth every point that the vampire counts can take (and is the only large mount for a character that I've seen recommended), the Terrorgeist.

This beast will do a LOT of damage with it's screams and the use of flight to keep it out of charge arcs is huge because for something so big it's VERY fragile. Watch out for anything shooty because they'll just do mass fire to hunt 6s and kill it but the scream is a beautiful way to kill blocks of models (the first time I box-cared the die roll and took off a rank and a half of dwarves was fun, he came prepared for it next game though). It's all the better because it auto-hits in range and can be fired into melee without any penalty, you get your lord and his cav unit stuck somewhere and this guy will help clear the road. It's also one of the few models that I've seen people run a mounted lord on because having 3 of them is just disgusting in what it can do to your opponent.

Alright, good to know, thank you!

I wouldn't have thought that its shooting alone justified its cost, though now that I think about it, I see how that would work. I'm not sure I would have the points to take all the stuff I would like to have in my army for conceptual and model-liking reasons and a Terrorgeist as well, though...

Sadly I haven't really been able to play much in the past few weeks because games tend to run in cycles and my group is more focused on skirmish style games over larger games now. I need to hurry up and finish painting the army though so I can move on to my beastmen or Tau more fully but I haven't been as motivated to paint since we ran the slow growth league. I do have my Vargheists, Varghulfs, Skeletons, most of my Grave guard, about half my zombies, and the characters done but that still leaves a LOT of fun stuff like cavalry and the BIG monsters.

Pretty much all my gaming, other than that campaign I mentioned further up there, has been Mordheim lately. And occasionally Malifaux. So yeah, skirmish style games.

As for the frenzy comment on vampire counts the Vargheists are the only ones I can think of that really have an issue but you can get around that with moon-walking them once it's close enough to be an issue.

Oh right, since they are flyers, thus Skirmishers, thus can turn around freely. I didn't think of that (since I haven't ever used models with Frenzy myself, and the frenzied models other people around here use aren't Skirmishers, so they couldn't use that). Alright then.

Any thoughts on the new Wood Elf models?

I'm not sure what to think of the three Treeman models (regular, ancient and Durthu). I don't like the looks of them all that much, but I think that may be not so much the fault of the models as that of the pictures - I'm not a big fan of the paintjobs, and the pictures look oddly flat to me, don't really convey at all what the models look like in 3D. So I might wait with my judgment until I actually see them in person. However, I doubt that I'll have much reason to phase out the two Treemen models that I currently use.

Araloth's model looks really nice, though.

No other new models have surfaced thus far, right?

[hamishspence]

I'm not a big fan of the paintjobs, and the pictures look oddly flat to me, don't really convey at all what the models look like in 3D. So I might wait with my judgment until I actually see them in person.

There's the 360 degree rotatable pics on the GW site.

[Tome]

I've seen the models. Not particularly impressed with the new stuff, but that might be my sheer hatred for all things green and growing speaking.

Yes, I do hate both nature and elves with an undying passion.
Yes, I am thinking of starting a Wood Elves army anyway.

All in all it's nice and a decent change of pace from what my 40K army turned into, I'm sad that only eldar trump Tau now in the general view of that game. I like my anime robot army but now it's considered bandwagon cheesing to use it

My response to accusations of cheese or bandwagon-ry is to smack the offender about the head with my 4th edition codex. I suffered through two editions of suck, prettyboy. Deal with it.

It does help that deathstars, super-heavies and stuff like Inquisition is making us seem far better balanced nowadays.

[Winterwind]

There's the 360 degree rotatable pics on the GW site.

Oh, right, good point.

Hmmm... having looked at them using that now... the models are actually pretty decent, but somehow still feel odd to me. After thinking about it a little, I think it's simply that I can't wrap my head around Treemen changing from trees (that happen to be men) to men (that happen to be trees) - I mean, those new models are perfectly humanoid, whereas the old treemen really looked like walking trees. The new models even have clothing, for crying out loud, and are using weapons, rather than crushing their foes with their mighty branches. I dunno. It feels... wrong.

[hamishspence]

The new models even have clothing, for crying out loud, and are using weapons, rather than crushing their foes with their mighty branches. I dunno. It feels... wrong.

Durthu had a sword made for him, the Ancients use staffs, but the "ordinary" Treeman don't use anything.

[Ishikar]

My response to accusations of cheese or bandwagon-ry is to smack the offender about the head with my 4th edition codex. I suffered through two editions of suck, prettyboy. Deal with it.

It does help that deathstars, super-heavies and stuff like Inquisition is making us seem far better balanced nowadays.

I started Tau as my very first 40K army 3-3.5 years ago and lost with them for a while before finally getting good enough for semi-reliable wins with them (depended on who I played against). Jump to new codex and it turns in a big way. Though if I mention escalation and D weapons breaking the game I get "says the Tau player" from some of the locals but they're kinda the idiots of the group so meh.

Anyways as far as the new wood elf models go I like the tree men and that's really all that's new for the army book. The local store owner is the only wood elf player but he has all 3 varieties of elves and is kinda disappointed with the small release but he's just happy to finally have an army book. Makes me wonder if beastmen are going to get one soon since they're the 2nd army I picked up.

[hamishspence]

Anyways as far as the new wood elf models go I like the tree men and that's really all that's new for the army book. The local store owner is the only wood elf player but he has all 3 varieties of elves and is kinda disappointed with the small release but he's just happy to finally have an army book. Makes me wonder if beastmen are going to get one soon since they're the 2nd army I picked up.

They tend to spread releases out across the first three weeks of a month these days - maybe they'll do it here?

Treeman and that character this week- maybe something else next week, and the week after?