Warhammer Fantasy Thread VI: The Undiscovered Country

[Winterwind]

I have a fluff question.

Say you're a landed knight of Bretonnia and you want to track down a vampire and a former lover who are currently in hiding. What are the best ways to do so (you don't have any items of personal significance from either) ?

I imagine, just personal investigation, first and foremost. Try to talk to people who might have seen them or know something about them, go to the places they were last seen and look for anything indicating where they might have gone or what they might have been up to, etc.

Alternately, given that vampires tend to be fairly old and usually also rather conservative in their ways, if you have any indication as to who that vampire is/was, go to places that were of importance to that vampire in the past; chances are, you might find something or somebody there who or what might give you some clues.

Then, vampires usually come from some big vampire family or another, whose members often conspire against each other as they race to the top in the family hierarchy. Perhaps look for some of the vampire's relatives - being mighty vampires themselves, and potentially interested in the downfall of the vampire you are looking for, one of them might know more and be willing to help you. This is very much a deal with the devil thing, though, and may very well completely blow up in your face.

I'm not aware of any great divination magic in Warhammer. Technically, it falls under the Lore of Heavens, if I'm not mistaken, so perhaps a mage specialized in the Wind of Azyr might be able to provide some help, but I don't think Warhammer magic tends to be the greatest tool for such things.

[Drasius]

Unfortunetly you can only attempt to dispell once per enemy spell. If you use dice then you can't use the scroll.

I was told that if I failed a dispel roll with my lvl 4, then he could no longer attempt to dispel for the remainder of that turn. The scroll on the lvl 2 would be insurance incase my lvl 4 flubbed a dispel roll early on and then the opponent went for dwellers/purple sun/final transmutation/other spell of certain doom. Is that the case or can someon always attempt a dispel roll, even if they have failed a roll against a previous spell?

IE. Supreme Sorceress casts boosted Word of Pain, Lvl 4 attempts dispel and rolls 1,2,3. Word of Pain goes off.

Supreme Sorceress casts Black Horror, Can my Lvl 4 attempt to dispel again (assuming I have dispel dice left) or must I now rely on my Lvl 2 (or his scroll). If I had a scroll on the lvl 4, would he be able to scroll it?

[Elhann]

IE. Supreme Sorceress casts boosted Word of Pain, Lvl 4 attempts dispel and rolls 1,2,3. Word of Pain goes off.

Supreme Sorceress casts Black Horror, Can my Lvl 4 attempt to dispel again (assuming I have dispel dice left) or must I now rely on my Lvl 2 (or his scroll). If I had a scroll on the lvl 4, would he be able to scroll it?

Your level 4 cannot try to dispel if he failed to dispel a previous spell in the same turn(so no +4. and since you use a dispel scroll instead of a dispel attempt, he wouldn't be able to use a scroll either)
If you level 2 had a scroll, he can either try to dispel Black Horror with dice, or with a scroll.

P35 in the rulebook, in the paragraph just above "Irresistible dispel".

[LCP]

I have a fluff question.

Say you're a landed knight of Bretonnia and you want to track down a vampire and a former lover who are currently in hiding. What are the best ways to do so (you don't have any items of personal significance from either) ?

Depends on the vampire.

Lahmians, Blood Dragons and Von Carsteins can all pass for humans very well, and tend to prefer life in human society. You'd track them down the same way you'd track down anyone else.

Bringing a wizard along might help. Vampires are saturated with dark magic and a wizard can see this, but some have ways to conceal themselves even from the witchsight. If you know this specific vampire's weaknesses you could also use the usual vampire-hunting tricks of mirrors/religious symbols/whatever to try to pick them out from the crowd.

If it's a Strigoi or Necrarch vampire... then follow the trail of bodies I suppose.

Since you're a Bretonnian aristocrat, you can use the peasantry as your eyes and ears - let it be known there's a gold crown reward for information relating to X, and that's more money than most of them have handled in their lives. If you need people to actually go after the vampire with you, then young knights Errant are just stupid enough to agree and well-equipped enough to be useful.

And if you're really drawing a blank and need divine intervention, you can go to the damsels... but you'd best hope they approve of your reasons.

[Kir]

As a VC player: bring a priest and/or witch hunter. they have the tools to identify vampires; for example a finely polished virgin silver mirror, which you won't find in anyone else's shop generally. They also have experience tracking down the undead, most likely. Also remember: follow the blood. Vampires of the non-strigoi persuasion generally feed on the populace (or send lackeys to abduct, in case of the necrarchs). Lookin for blood drained bodies/abductions in some of the more populated areas would most likely help as well.

[Vaz]

Current Asrai list;

Lords = 575pts
Spellweaver, Level 4 (Dark), Talisman of Preservation, Dispel Scroll = 290pts
Spellweaver, Level 4 (High), Asrai Longbow, Hail of Doom Arrow, Dragonbane Gem, Trickster's Shard = 285pts

Heroes = 230pts
Spellsinger, Level 2 (Beasts) = 115pts
Spellsinger, Level 2 (Fire) = 115pts

Core = 995pts
50 Eternal Guard, Full Command, Standard of Discipline = 595pts
13 Glade Guard, Swiftshiver Arrows = 208pts
12 Glade Guard, Swiftshiver Arrows = 192pts

Rare; 600pts
15 Waywatchers; 300pts
15 Waywatchers; 300pts

The 4 Wizards all sit in the EG block, with the Dark Wizard pinging off Power of Darkness, stopping any wounds courtesy of "Ancient's Protection". Swiftshiver Arrows are better than Trueflight for causing hits. I'd go for poison, but too much is immune to it, plus anything T7 or harder is going to have to go up against my EG point sink or be wasted. I pour out 110 Armour Piercing Shots a turn, and can turn to Waywatchers to put out 30 Ignore Armour shots a turn if I need it. The EG block is sitting there under Wyssan's Wildform and Power of Darkness for Strength 5, and possibly Hand of Glory or Flaming Sword of Rhuin for even more hitting harder. Trickster's Shard is there to help ensure I can get the protection counters to bounce off Power of Darkness's inevitable wound causing, and to prevent a particularly nasty impact hit from decimating me.

[Winterwind]

Current Asrai list

Is it intended to be 2.400 points? I assume it is, but I'm still asking since at least around here, people usually play with game sizes that are multiples of 500.

The 4 Wizards

That's an awful amount of points in wizards, given that a typical magic phase doesn't even give you enough power dice to cast all of the spells known by a single level 4 wizard, nevermind two, nevermind what's sort of (though not entirely) the equivalent of three. Even with the increased chance to channel additional dice, and with Power of Darkness giving you more, I'm not sure you will be able to make use of this efficiently.

A Stubborn Ld10 unit is nice, but without a BSB, you're still at risk of them failing tests. Plus, the Doom of Hail Arrow is really much more efficient on a Glade Captain than a mage; now that the Doom of Hail Arrow gets the penalty for Multiple Shots, even Glade Captains need perfect conditions to hit on that 2+, whereas wizards will miss with half of the shots even in the best scenario - which really makes me doubt it is worth it on them.

Swiftshiver Arrows are better than Trueflight for causing hits.

Better if you have no penalties to hit whatsoever, yeah (1.0 hits on average vs. 0.67). As soon as you have a to-hit penalty of 1, both arrow types generate exactly the same amount of hits on average (0.67), if your penalty is higher than that, Trueflight have the edge (0.67 vs. 0.33 for a penalty of 2, and it only increases more afterwards). So... I'm honestly not sure which ones are ultimately preferable. With Asrai Archery gone, to-hit penalties are much more frequent (even if you don't want to reposition your archers for tactical reasons or to get them out of the way of those close combat units closing in, you also can no longer just move those few inches forward that you're missing for close range without incurring to-hit penalties, either). Plus, Trueflight Arrows are cheaper.

I was going to also mention the thing where Swiftshiver Arrows are kind of like Arcane Bodkins, in that Waywatchers can emulate them (except better, since they have BS5), and Glade Guard with Swiftshiver Arrows are so expensive that it's probably worth it to just pay the measly additional points it costs to just make them Waywatchers instead, but I guess you are already at your limit of two of the same Rare choice, so I guess that argument fails. Still, between Swiftshiver and Trueflight, I'm really not so certain which I would pick. Deepwood Scouts, who can deploy closer and with less obstacles in the way (though at 2.400 points, the opponent will very likely use the full width of the table, so there probably won't be safe spots to do so) could probably take bigger advantage from Swiftshiver Arrows; on Glade Guard though, I'm more tending towards Trueflight.

I'd go for poison, but too much is immune to it, plus anything T7 or harder is going to have to go up against my EG point sink or be wasted.

I wouldn't say it would necessarily be wasted; a unit doesn't have to kill as much as it costs in order to be worth its points, as long as it survives. A costlier unit has to have more of an impact on the game to be worthwhile, to be sure, but if it sweeps away a bunch of Glade Guard or Waywatchers, preventing them from dealing damage to its army, while that army avoids the Eternal Guard, it has done its job just the same.

Anyhow... why are you talking about T7 specifically? Poison is useful against any target; moreso against stuff that bows can't hurt as well otherwise, of course, but even there, it is already equally efficient against T5 as against T7.

[Tehnar]

Current Asrai list;

Lords = 575pts
Spellweaver, Level 4 (Dark), Talisman of Preservation, Dispel Scroll = 290pts
Spellweaver, Level 4 (High), Asrai Longbow, Hail of Doom Arrow, Dragonbane Gem, Trickster's Shard = 285pts

Heroes = 230pts
Spellsinger, Level 2 (Beasts) = 115pts
Spellsinger, Level 2 (Fire) = 115pts

Core = 995pts
50 Eternal Guard, Full Command, Standard of Discipline = 595pts
13 Glade Guard, Swiftshiver Arrows = 208pts
12 Glade Guard, Swiftshiver Arrows = 192pts

Rare; 600pts
15 Waywatchers; 300pts
15 Waywatchers; 300pts

The 4 Wizards all sit in the EG block, with the Dark Wizard pinging off Power of Darkness, stopping any wounds courtesy of "Ancient's Protection". Swiftshiver Arrows are better than Trueflight for causing hits. I'd go for poison, but too much is immune to it, plus anything T7 or harder is going to have to go up against my EG point sink or be wasted. I pour out 110 Armour Piercing Shots a turn, and can turn to Waywatchers to put out 30 Ignore Armour shots a turn if I need it. The EG block is sitting there under Wyssan's Wildform and Power of Darkness for Strength 5, and possibly Hand of Glory or Flaming Sword of Rhuin for even more hitting harder. Trickster's Shard is there to help ensure I can get the protection counters to bounce off Power of Darkness's inevitable wound causing, and to prevent a particularly nasty impact hit from decimating me.

Eternal guard can use bows now? Or do the archers get multiple shots?

I don't know about your army, it all seems to hinge on a magic phase. One bad phase and the entire eternal guard block is gone, because at the end of the day they are T3 elves with 5+ armor save. The archer units I like more, but I think you invested 500 points too many into wizards. Like Winterwind says, even with good winds of magic rolls, a lot of potential is wasted.

[Winterwind]

Eternal guard can use bows now? Or do the archers get multiple shots?

Swiftshiver Arrows give Multiple Shots(2). And Waywatchers can choose whether they want to ignore armour or have Multiple Shots(2). Eternal Guard cannot use bows, no.

because at the end of the day they are T3 elves with 5+ armor save.

6+, actually; Eternal Guard nowadays get their armour save from equipment, like everyone, not special rules, and Vaz didn't give them shields (which I actually missed when making my last post; this is probably something I would recommend to change, too. While a 5+ save isn't great, it's better than a 6+, and it only costs 1 point per model. I'd pretty much always go for that option, personally.).

[LCP]

@Vaz: others have already pointed out the main problems I see, but to add to the list:

• All your units bar the bunker are small and soft, and you have no BSB. If I am your opponent, I only have to kill 4 T3, no AS models to force a panic check on any of your missile units. I will be aiming to do this multiple times every magic/shooting phase.
• Your Eternal Guard unit is an infantry unit with a big footprint. If I choose to send more manoeuvreable melee units after your archers and waywatchers, it is too cumbersome to stop me.
• Your missile units are too pricey to be chaff. If I choose to go after your Eternal Guard you'll have to sacrifice expensive missile units to stop me flanking them, and you don't have enough for that tactic to stall me for long.
• The power of your mage bunker rests entirely on you successfully casting two spells. If I can dispel even one, you're left with a unit that will be outclassed by most of the hammer-type units which will be coming after it. And even if you've managed to cast both, this is the one combat that will matter, so I'm free to throw my own augments and hexes into the mix.
• Even if I do feel intimidated by the EG block, nothing stops me sending in sacrificial units to kill your wizards out of the front rank. The only things you have that can prevent that are your valuable, vulnerable archer units

Overall picture: you need fewer wizards, more units, and not to make such a tempting target out of such a fragile troop type as Eternal Guard. Plus a BSB.

[Tanuki Tales]

So, I just found out that Kinslayer is a thing and my hopes are utterly in the gutter.

See, I had picked up Road of Skulls because it underhandedly fooled me into thinking it was the continuation of Zombieslayer. What I actually got was Gotrek being a chatty cathy, Felix being a simpering pansy and a storyline that was barely interesting. That book and Curse of the Everliving were so bad that I haven't even looked into the Gotrek and Felix series since RoS was published. I have utterly no interest in picking up either City of the Damned or The Serpent Queen, especially since Reynolds wrote the latter as well. They take place in an alternate timeline that ignores the continuity and my love for the pair has already been curbed.

Now I see we're getting an author who, instead of picking up where we left off and giving us a foe worthy of challenging an entire city full of Slayers while continuing Felix's and Kat's growing romance, decides to play the "Time skip and everyone separated and moved on!" card (like that ever actually works).

*sigh*

Anyone else looking forward to this? I'm trying, but I'm just seeing another disappointment. Except it'll be ten times worse since you can't just file it neatly under taking place in an alternate timeline.

[bluntpencil]

I have a fluff question.

Say you're a landed knight of Bretonnia and you want to track down a vampire and a former lover who are currently in hiding. What are the best ways to do so (you don't have any items of personal significance from either) ?

You're landed, which means no going on quests, you've duties to your fief.

So, screw it. Take the Questing Vow. Boom, visions from the Lady of the Lake for you to find the Grail. And she'll totally want you to save a damsel in distress and kill a vampire in the process. That' some proper chivalry right there!

Of course, you'll probably want to do the practical stuff too, like, you know, asking around.

[ZeltArruin]

So, I just found out that Kinslayer is a thing and my hopes are utterly in the gutter.

See, I had picked up Road of Skulls because it underhandedly fooled me into thinking it was the continuation of Zombieslayer. What I actually got was Gotrek being a chatty cathy, Felix being a simpering pansy and a storyline that was barely interesting. That book and Curse of the Everliving were so bad that I haven't even looked into the Gotrek and Felix series since RoS was published. I have utterly no interest in picking up either City of the Damned or The Serpent Queen, especially since Reynolds wrote the latter as well. They take place in an alternate timeline that ignores the continuity and my love for the pair has already been curbed.

Now I see we're getting an author who, instead of picking up where we left off and giving us a foe worthy of challenging an entire city full of Slayers while continuing Felix's and Kat's growing romance, decides to play the "Time skip and everyone separated and moved on!" card (like that ever actually works).

*sigh*

Anyone else looking forward to this? I'm trying, but I'm just seeing another disappointment. Except it'll be ten times worse since you can't just file it neatly under taking place in an alternate timeline.

I'll just stick to the first 7 books being cannon. Things have gotten weird since that time skip...

[Penguinizer]

I noticed that there isn't any guide to the new Warriors of Chaos book. Should I write one (even though I haven't played tons of FB with the new edition)?

[Tehnar]

Do so. I haven't had much experience on playing the new WoC, so would like to hear some insights.

[Tome]

I think I jotted down my first impressions when the new armybook came out but I don't actually play enough to write a guide on it. Go for it.

[Saambell]

So for a while I had been thinking of making a Dark Elf army. But it was going to be a themed one. A witch army, with Hellebron as General, Witch Elves as Core, Harpies as Special and Bloodwrack Medusae as Rare. Basically all female models. I have no idea how it would have preformed but now I will never know. $70CA for 10 Witches! I had bought a box back when they were ~$40, but a $30 price hike is just stupid! Is there any reason that the price jumped? What could have caused such a rise?

So now that I can't play my Witch Army can anyone make a guess how it would have worked? Given the sort of models I had lined up can anyone give a hypothetical list that would have fit the guide lines?

[Kir]

price mostly rose because: metal to finecast, also, multikit which nearly has 10 more models in it- if you find 10 more legs you can make another squad of those rare choice girls (sisters of (s)laughter?). Makes sense, but i still dont want to buy more :/. as for armywise, hellebron on cauldron is about 500ish, 30 witchelf block so she works would be 300ish points, with about 100ish for 10-strong witch elf "redirectors" (they hit everything which isnt heavy armor high T for a LOT of damage). a few units of harpies would be 150-225 ish points, loose medu's are under 100 each, with shrine 275ish. sisters of slaugher delight in breaking large rank n file, are about 15 pts each, have a melee ward save, and might be good to buff with cauldron or shrine. You'd be mostly lacking anti-heavy things, primarily on the anti- armor side, because with that much poison you should generally wound. banner of AP is great, but you can only take one. medusae would compensate slightly, but they are frenzy ld2, so unless theyre in general aoe or on shrines in units, they do absolutely bollocks. you need that stand n shoot and or shrine bonus. Also, everything falls over to a stiff breeze, but this should only matter against gunlines or normal skaven/empire/dwarfs/woodelves (they have cheap S4+ longrange guns/crossbows).

[Saambell]

Its the same kit as I bought. The new edition re-release of the Witch Elves. Plastic, 10 WE/SoS, or 5WE/5SoS. I swear I bought one for $40-$50ish. SoSs would need a whole new set of legs and torsos as the models are torso and one leg as one piece, the other leg, the arms, and the head.

Was going to have Hellebron on foot in a block of witches. Medusae I can have in a squad of up to 3 I think, and I think I recall them being over 100 points when I glanced through the store's sample army book.

[Kir]

Its the same kit as I bought. The new edition re-release of the Witch Elves. Plastic, 10 WE/SoS, or 5WE/5SoS. I swear I bought one for $40-$50ish. SoSs would need a whole new set of legs and torsos as the models are torso and one leg as one piece, the other leg, the arms, and the head.

Was going to have Hellebron on foot in a block of witches. Medusae I can have in a squad of up to 3 I think, and I think I recall them being over 100 points when I glanced through the store's sample army book.

In my opinion, hellebron isn't worth it on foot, since she lost her defensive gear to 8th ed book. since you're already using T3 no save troops, giving those and hellebron a 5+ ward save and reroll to wound, together with impact hits and a solid defensive chassis with 15 "models" for rank bonus purposes, means that the cauldron is a real improvement over having her on foot. You could get a death hag to get the cauldron, but then the death hag is one of the squishiest characters in the game, which isnt reccomended- you want to keep that witchbrew operational with reroll to wound, and hellebron is more durable witchbrew carrier which is also better against the unit's big weakness: high armor saves. you can have 2 medusae on foot in your rare choices, and on most point totals one bloodwrack shrine. However, the medusae on foot are destined to be general's bodyguard, but they are way too squishy to survive any shooting at all, with a shrine they can be in a unit, survive, and have increased damage potential whilst at the same time providing easy means to wreck low LD armies- -1 LD on a steadfast foe matters quite a lot, and a kharibdyss makes it nearing an autobreak.
I mean, you could field a foot army of T3 models with no saves that are quite expensive, but if your opponent has any shooting and redirectors you don't get to play most of the time. I've played empire a few times now with troops with actual armorsave, together with some tough units, and i barely make it to their side. I can't see witches doing the same (i screen mine with corsairs)

[Tehnar]

As far as I remember, the rumors that said 7th edition 40K would be out in May, said 9th edition Fantasy due out in the fall. It fits given the rough 4 year cycle Fantasy has had in the past. So it looks like we are at the end of the edition. With the rumored Brettonia in July, that means only late 7th edition Skaven and Beastman are without a update.

On the whole I have been very happy with the 8th edition. I hope any updates that come to Fantasy via 9th edition are more on the errata side and less on sweeping changes. I would like new things though:

Allies
More missions or better designed missions with a bigger focus on objectives.
Challenges. I like 40K 7th edition wounds spill over mechanic.

Whats your take on the tail end of the 8th, and the upcoming 9th?

[HerbieRAI]

I think one reason they went up in price is how amazing they are, because they knew any dark elf player would be wanting to use a large block of those models. Currently they are one of the best core choices in the game if not the best. With a hag on a cauldron they are an amazing deathstar. Put a level 4 shadow mage in the army for mindrazor to scare away heavy armor. I've never used Hellborn, so I'm not sure how much an improvement she is over a Death Hag, but definatly put them on a cauldron for the 4++ save.

In 9th I'd like to see 3 changes. 1) magic balance. Mainly to Throne of Vines and/or Dwellers, and purple sun, but mindrazor and pit of shades are a bit iffy as well. 1 spell should not be able to auto win the game. 2) More magic weapons. Like a flaming sword perhaps, or maybe some magic lances or greatweapons. The only weapons used right now are the +str weapons, sword of striking, and fencers blades. 3) building rules. Get in a building and your almost invincable in the current ruleset.

[Winterwind]

I got into Fantasy only fairly close to the end of 7th edition, so I didn't get all that much experience with it; overall, though, I liked 8th edition quite a bit, too. It was not without its flaws, far from it, but overall, I feel the positives outweighed the negatives quite a bit.

As for 9th edition... well, I very much doubt that is what 9th edition would end up being like, because I doubt GW is likely to take a step back, but I think I would wish for some sort of 7th edition/8th edition hybrid. Basically like 8th edition, but with the following modifications:
- weaken the most powerful spells just a little
- bring back difficult terrain
- weaken warmachines, especially cannons, somewhat, or bring in some sort of counterplay (since 8th edition's changes to line of sight rules made it really difficult to stay outside of cannon fire)
- make monsters count as some number of ranks (I'd go with about 2) for purposes of overcoming Steadfast only
- perhaps make removing rank bonus easier and/or make it remove Steadfast, too, so that cavalry becomes more relevant again

And yeah, more some missions that are not just killing the other side would be nice, too.

[Eldan]

I came into fantasy in, I think, 4th or 5th edition and 8th was, probably, overall my favourite. Magic has its problem, but I vastly prefer it to the old paradigm of

Still, there's a handful of things I miss:

-Skirmishers used to be much more fun. Sure, I can see the need for them to stay in square formations. But still.
-Cavalry and monsters really do need a buff back up. I love what they did with light infantry, like fighting from the back ranks and steadfast when outnumbering, but cavalry and monsters suffer too much. A suggestion: "Shock attack: when charging, cavalry count as twice (thrice? +2?) the number of ranks for the purpose of negating steadfast. Monsters count as X ranks".
-Magic. I think irresistible force needs to be toned down a bit and the strongest spells, too. I'm not sure if making them large templates would be good, currently, they are an important counter to hordes of cheap infantry.

[Tehnar]

I got into Fantasy only fairly close to the end of 7th edition, so I didn't get all that much experience with it; overall, though, I liked 8th edition quite a bit, too. It was not without its flaws, far from it, but overall, I feel the positives outweighed the negatives quite a bit.

As for 9th edition... well, I very much doubt that is what 9th edition would end up being like, because I doubt GW is likely to take a step back, but I think I would wish for some sort of 7th edition/8th edition hybrid. Basically like 8th edition, but with the following modifications:
- weaken the most powerful spells just a little
- bring back difficult terrain
- weaken warmachines, especially cannons, somewhat, or bring in some sort of counterplay (since 8th edition's changes to line of sight rules made it really difficult to stay outside of cannon fire)
- make monsters count as some number of ranks (I'd go with about 2) for purposes of overcoming Steadfast only
- perhaps make removing rank bonus easier and/or make it remove Steadfast, too, so that cavalry becomes more relevant again

And yeah, more some missions that are not just killing the other side would be nice, too.

I think the most powerful spells will be weakened in the new edition. If you look at the armybook lores, the trend is that the big #6 spells allow ward saves and only cause a single wound. I don't think anyone would think Dwellers is OP if it would do only a single wound per model and allow ward saves.

I don't agree on you with difficult terrain if by that you mean terrain that slows down movement. I would like to see more mobility, not less. Other negative effects though I would like.

I don't think Steadfast needs to go away, just modified a bit. A change I would like to see is disrupted units not be able to use Inspiring presence and/or BSB rerolls. Or a mallus to their Ld value. I think that would bring back medium cavalry.

I came into fantasy in, I think, 4th or 5th edition and 8th was, probably, overall my favourite. Magic has its problem, but I vastly prefer it to the old paradigm of

Still, there's a handful of things I miss:

-Skirmishers used to be much more fun. Sure, I can see the need for them to stay in square formations. But still.
-Cavalry and monsters really do need a buff back up. I love what they did with light infantry, like fighting from the back ranks and steadfast when outnumbering, but cavalry and monsters suffer too much. A suggestion: "Shock attack: when charging, cavalry count as twice (thrice? +2?) the number of ranks for the purpose of negating steadfast. Monsters count as X ranks".
-Magic. I think irresistible force needs to be toned down a bit and the strongest spells, too. I'm not sure if making them large templates would be good, currently, they are an important counter to hordes of cheap infantry.

Yeah, I agree with you, melee skirmishers need a buff.
As for the spells, see above. I would like to see Irresistable force table to be dependent on the # of dice used to cast the spell, or the # of 6 rolled.

[Eldan]

Hmm. Hypothetical: would it be bad if irresistible force just went away entirely? Is it necessary?

[Tehnar]

For me its not necessary. Though I would like to keep the miscast part. Some of the best gamechaning moments came from wizards blowing themselves up. Though I would like more fun effects like from Dark Heresy.

[Winterwind]

I think the most powerful spells will be weakened in the new edition. If you look at the armybook lores, the trend is that the big #6 spells allow ward saves and only cause a single wound. I don't think anyone would think Dwellers is OP if it would do only a single wound per model and allow ward saves.

Aye, most likely.

I don't agree on you with difficult terrain if by that you mean terrain that slows down movement. I would like to see more mobility, not less. Other negative effects though I would like.

Yes, I meant terrain that slows down.

The way I see it, having terrain that slows down means that players have to make a choice - move predictable paths where the terrain is open, or accept being slowed down, rather than the current going whereever they please at no cost. It would mean that if somebody wanted to have the mobility they have now - they could have it, but at the cost of moving only on certain paths while avoiding others, which their opponent might take advantage of. The way I see it, it would make the game a lot more tactical, both by forcing players to make that choice, and by giving players a method of counterplay to powerful units bearing down on them by trying to utilise difficult terrain as obstacles (and in turn, having the other players come up with ways to circumvent that). I feel that, right now, the difference between playing with terrain and playing on a completely flat, empty table, is just too small; terrain should be more impactful.

I don't think Steadfast needs to go away, just modified a bit. A change I would like to see is disrupted units not be able to use Inspiring presence and/or BSB rerolls. Or a mallus to their Ld value. I think that would bring back medium cavalry.

I didn't mean that Steadfast should be removed altogether; Steadfast is a fine rule. I meant that, maybe, units being disrupted could remove Steadfast from them; your solutions might be even better though.

Hmm. Hypothetical: would it be bad if irresistible force just went away entirely? Is it necessary?

What Tehnar said - I don't think Irresistible Force is necessary, but miscasts are a good thing to have (mostly to make casting the really big spells with a ton of dice a risky proposal). Though if spells were better balanced (and less likely to swing games one way or the other), I might prefer a miscast table that is not going to just randomly swing a game as much as it might right now as well (i.e., no more instant death for the caster). This said, more interesting and fun effects would also be nice, which might be difficult to reconcile.

[Eldan]

Oh, absolutely. Keep miscasts. Miscasts are fluffy, fun and important. I was just thinking if we need the "spell can't be dispelled" part. Earlier editions had them separated.

Larger miscast tables actually sound like fun, though I can already hear the cries of "Randumb" and "Tablehammer".

What would "fun effects" mean? Hmm. Let's think of some.

Inspired by Storm of Magic:
"The winds of magic change. All spells from the school the wizard tried to cast from have their difficulty increased by +2 until the wizard's player's next magic phase."

[Tehnar]

Aye, most likely.

Yes, I meant terrain that slows down.

The way I see it, having terrain that slows down means that players have to make a choice - move predictable paths where the terrain is open, or accept being slowed down, rather than the current going whereever they please at no cost. It would mean that if somebody wanted to have the mobility they have now - they could have it, but at the cost of moving only on certain paths while avoiding others, which their opponent might take advantage of. The way I see it, it would make the game a lot more tactical, both by forcing players to make that choice, and by giving players a method of counterplay to powerful units bearing down on them by trying to utilise difficult terrain as obstacles (and in turn, having the other players come up with ways to circumvent that). I feel that, right now, the difference between playing with terrain and playing on a completely flat, empty table, is just too small; terrain should be more impactful.

I primarily use forests, rivers/lakes buildings and impassible terrain. And I see players choosing lanes with their units, dependent on the terrain. No ranked unit wants to go into a forest (majority) or a river so to lose steadfast if they are in charge range of my Wyvern Warboss.

Getting through a river is a nightmare for a ranked unit. Any deep unit takes forever to move through it, as you can't march. I wouldn't want any terrain to slow things down more then that. Perhaps make it so you can't march through a forest unless you have Forest Strider.

Oh, absolutely. Keep miscasts. Miscasts are fluffy, fun and important. I was just thinking if we need the "spell can't be dispelled" part. Earlier editions had them separated.

Larger miscast tables actually sound like fun, though I can already hear the cries of "Randumb" and "Tablehammer".

What would "fun effects" mean? Hmm. Let's think of some.

Inspired by Storm of Magic:
"The winds of magic change. All spells from the school the wizard tried to cast from have their difficulty increased by +2 until the wizard's player's next magic phase."

Wizard teleports a random distance and direction with unit.
Wizard teleports a random distance without unit.
Spell affects a random unit.
Wizard gains Stupidity and loses 3 Ld.
Opponent gets free spell with CL less or equal to the spell cast out of turn.
Opponent gains d3 extra dispel dice.
Opponent gains extra d3 power dice next phase.