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  1. - Top - End - #241
    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: What happens if a lich is redeemed?

    Quote Originally Posted by JusticeZero View Post
    Not true. There can be lots of things that lock you permanently into a fixed alignment. Those things might not restrict your behavior in the slightest bit, however. "You can act however you want, but your alignment is frozen here and no longer is affected by your behavior."
    Such as what? So far the only example that people have been able to produce is completely destroying on a cosmic the ability to become good. We've had a fairly interesting discussion about the consequences of a fixed alignment, which is very interesting in terms of the implications philosophically and rules-wise. However, nobody has been able to pick an example that would not be arbitrary and certainly none listed in the rules of any game that I'm aware.

    There are things that can forcefully change your alignment, such as lycanthropy, or a helm of opposite alignment, or becoming an undead, but they also change your outlook and presumably you could shift your outlook back.
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  2. - Top - End - #242
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    Default Re: What happens if a lich is redeemed?

    Quote Originally Posted by GolemsVoice View Post
    Part of it I think is also the assumptions that it's much easier to be evil while doing good deeds for ultimately evil ends then to be good and do evil deeds for ultimately good ends.

    I mean, how often do we see the troubled anti-hero toeing the line between good and evil, trying to be good but failing, only to be redeemed in the end (or fall?)?

    We never see a villain who's toeing the line between good and evil. Would be fun, though!

    "Killzor! Explain yourself! You saved an orphanage from a fire, you RESCUED 60 orphans! You're a loose cannon!"

    "I did what I had to. I did the wrong thing! The good thing! It was neccessary, at that moment!"
    Dunno, I feel this is somewhat common under the guise of misguided actions.

    Quote Originally Posted by AMFV View Post
    Such as what? So far the only example that people have been able to produce is completely destroying on a cosmic the ability to become good. We've had a fairly interesting discussion about the consequences of a fixed alignment, which is very interesting in terms of the implications philosophically and rules-wise. However, nobody has been able to pick an example that would not be arbitrary and certainly none listed in the rules of any game that I'm aware.

    There are things that can forcefully change your alignment, such as lycanthropy, or a helm of opposite alignment, or becoming an undead, but they also change your outlook and presumably you could shift your outlook back.
    To a certain extent I doubt we can without looking to real life, the meta aspect of an external player making choices without any means of knowing in an absolute sense what a character through their own (nonexistent) internal choices. As good as a roleplayer may be we can't quantify-ably measure any meta influence and I doubt there's anyone who has absolutely zero. I know I for one will personally always find certain avenues personally distasteful would never have a character pursue them, regardless of any possible in character difference outlook.
    Quote Originally Posted by jedipotter View Post
    Logic just does not fit in with the real world. And only the guilty throw fallacy's around.
    Quote Originally Posted by Vendin, probably
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  3. - Top - End - #243
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    Default Re: What happens if a lich is redeemed?

    Quote Originally Posted by Brookshw View Post

    To a certain extent I doubt we can without looking to real life, the meta aspect of an external player making choices without any means of knowing in an absolute sense what a character through their own (nonexistent) internal choices. As good as a roleplayer may be we can't quantify-ably measure any meta influence and I doubt there's anyone who has absolutely zero. I know I for one will personally always find certain avenues personally distasteful would never have a character pursue them, regardless of any possible in character difference outlook.
    I don't think that's necessarily the case, if a person can comprehend their character's outlook, they should be able to have their character act according to it. Even if they may find doing so distasteful. I personally find racists distasteful and I've roleplayed them. While it may not be possible for you to roleplay all changes in alignment, a dramatic shift in outlook (altruism to selfishness for example) should be something that a reasonable person could at least, conceptually, simulate.
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  4. - Top - End - #244
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    Default Re: What happens if a lich is redeemed?

    Quote Originally Posted by AMFV View Post
    I don't think that's necessarily the case, if a person can comprehend their character's outlook, they should be able to have their character act according to it. Even if they may find doing so distasteful. I personally find racists distasteful and I've roleplayed them. While it may not be possible for you to roleplay all changes in alignment, a dramatic shift in outlook (altruism to selfishness for example) should be something that a reasonable person could at least, conceptually, simulate.
    While I agree on a large level, our own internal conceptualization will limit our understandings and applications of these things. In a real world sense pure objectivism is nigh impossible. In an in character sense not only are the actions and understandings first filtered into our conceptual framework but are then applied via a limited scope of who a character is in an in game sense. Without creating hundreds of pages of backstory to try and workout how various experiences in the characters life would impact them (not to mention they live in a very different world which we don't have any personal internal experience with which to contrast our own understanding) I don't see how in an absolute, objective, and quantifiable method we can remove the meta. I have no idea what it means to grow up in 1400s Italy. I can build a character built around what I know and how I think someone would react, but I doubt its the same as if I had actually lived there.
    Last edited by Brookshw; 2014-03-02 at 12:19 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by jedipotter View Post
    Logic just does not fit in with the real world. And only the guilty throw fallacy's around.
    Quote Originally Posted by Vendin, probably
    As always, the planes prove to be awesomer than I expected.
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  5. - Top - End - #245
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    Default Re: What happens if a lich is redeemed?

    I think Xykon especially in Start of Darkness is a great example of how becoming a normal lich influences your alignment. That's the baseline assumption, I think, like Ghosts in Supernatural where the longer you remain as this inhuman entity, the less and less you care about your humanity; the more of a monster you become.

    It is a common trope, and it fits here.

    That said, it shouldn't be impossible to fight it or change. Barring of course Good Liches from Libris Mortis that RAW explicitly DO exist, an evil lich redeeming herself and doing good deeds and fighting her nature and all that would be a cool story, have potentially awesome RP, and would be something I'd love to be a part of.

    At the end of the day, it should be a fight, though. She wouldn't just wake up and say "I'm Lawful Good now, lol, time for some Exalted Feats" but rather take a long and hard journey that never ends as the taint and influence never leaves.
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  6. - Top - End - #246
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    Default Re: What happens if a lich is redeemed?

    Well this entire argument is rather ridiculous, I had to stop reading at about the 7th page to just post this right quick.

    Say you could become some kind of benevolent creature through some ritual, the ritual requires acts of unspeakable good to perform. After said act and transformation into the creature, then you go off kicking celestial puppies, destroying planes, and listening to Celine Dion. By some of the logic displayed on this topic, than you would still be considered unquestionably good no matter how many people you rape, how many children you orphan, or virgin sacrifices you make.

    Morality isn't about a state of being, it's about what you do while in that state of being, if a lich wants to start handing out (not poisoned) lollipops to little children, or solve world hunger, guess what he did, a good action, he MIGHT be on his way to becoming a better person (intent factors in on this). In no way at any shape, form, or manner does that erase his past deeds, he still did whatever he did in the ritual (or before or after) and he can still choose to do whatever he wants to do at a later point. And hey, if that lich somehow reverses all the evil he has ever done, than how would he still be evil even if he is still inside that withering corpse?

    On a side note I would however likely (if I were DM) rule that you would have a kind of "evil" taint to you in the case of detect Evil, no scale of morality is just going to "forget" that you murdered thousands of babies and bathed in their blood (just an example).

    Oh and to whomever came up with the "unspeakable good" thing, that's hilarious. You deserve a gold star.
    Last edited by AbyssStalker; 2015-02-01 at 01:08 PM. Reason: Grammer

  7. - Top - End - #247
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    Default Re: What happens if a lich is redeemed?

    Quote Originally Posted by AbyssStalker View Post
    On a side note I would however likely (if I were DM) rule that you would have a kind of "evil" taint to you in the case of detect Evil, no scale of morality is just going to "forget" that you murdered thousands of babies and bathed in their blood (just an example).
    Not only do undead already detect Evil regardless of alignment, they detect more powerful Evil than mortals (an undead with 9 HD would detect as Strong evil, while a regular evil creature would only detect as Faint evil).
    Quote Originally Posted by Inevitability View Post
    Greater
    \ˈgrā-tər \
    comparative adjective
    1. Describing basically the exact same monster but with twice the RHD.
    Quote Originally Posted by Artanis View Post
    I'm going to be honest, "the Welsh became a Great Power and conquered Germany" is almost exactly the opposite of the explanation I was expecting

  8. - Top - End - #248
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    Default Re: What happens if a lich is redeemed?

    Quote Originally Posted by AbyssStalker View Post
    Say you could become some kind of benevolent creature through some ritual, the ritual requires acts of unspeakable good to perform... you would still be considered unquestionably good no matter how many people you rape, how many children you orphan, or virgin sacrifices you make.
    That's correct, yes. You pegged the morality gauge, then locked/broke it with a supernatural effect that is tied to it.
    If someone were transformed into an Earth elemental related creature, then spent a lot of time standing on high places and chatting up birds and sylphs, they will not spontaneously stop being affected by spells to affect Earth-using creatures. This is no different.
    In other news, I just looked at the dates... Necromancy much?
    Last edited by JusticeZero; 2015-02-01 at 04:04 PM.
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  9. - Top - End - #249
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    Default Re: What happens if a lich is redeemed?

    Quote Originally Posted by JusticeZero View Post
    If someone were transformed into an Earth elemental related creature, then spent a lot of time standing on high places and chatting up birds and sylphs, they will not spontaneously stop being affected by spells to affect Earth-using creatures. This is no different.
    Actually it is different. There's no such thing as "spells to affect Earth-using creatures" - just [Earth] creatures which Earth elementals are (although I don't think polymorph would give you the tag). It works the same for [Evil], and in fact there are rules that regardless of a creature's alignment, [Evil] creatures actually are affected by anti-Evil spells.

    Unfortunately, a Lich is not [Evil] by virtue of the template. In fact, it's really damn hard to get the [Evil] tag - you pretty much need to be an outsider.
    Quote Originally Posted by Inevitability View Post
    Greater
    \ˈgrā-tər \
    comparative adjective
    1. Describing basically the exact same monster but with twice the RHD.
    Quote Originally Posted by Artanis View Post
    I'm going to be honest, "the Welsh became a Great Power and conquered Germany" is almost exactly the opposite of the explanation I was expecting

  10. - Top - End - #250
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    Default Re: What happens if a lich is redeemed?

    Quote Originally Posted by Flickerdart View Post
    Unfortunately, a Lich is not [Evil] by virtue of the template. In fact, it's really damn hard to get the [Evil] tag - you pretty much need to be an outsider.
    Or talk a cleric into performing the appropriate ritual from Savage Species on you. Ritual can be hazardous though.
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  11. - Top - End - #251
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    Default Re: What happens if a lich is redeemed?

    The Mod Wonder: Closed for Necromancy.
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