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2014-02-26, 01:34 AM (ISO 8601)
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Dysfunctional Rules Thread V: Dysfunctions All the Way Down
Ever find something in D&D 3.5 or Pathfinder that the author should have been a little more careful with? Maybe a feat doesn't do what it's obviously supposed to, or using a particular rule as written has nonsensical consequences (drown-healing, I'm looking at you). This thread is for posting all those times where you look at a bit of RAW and think "Wait, that doesn't work right."
If you're new here, please make sure your Dysfunction isn't already in the handbook; this is the fifth thread of this.
Previous threads:
"Wait, That Didn't Work Right" - The Dysfunctional Rules Collection
"Wait Again, That Didn't Work Right" - The Dysfunctional Rules Collection
Dysfunctional Rules III: 100% Rules-Legal, 110% Silly
Dysfunctional Rules IV: It's Like a Sandwich Made of RAW Failure!
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2014-02-26, 03:32 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dysfunctional Rules Thread V: Dysfunctions All the Way Down
Woo new thread!
Recently I realized that, as far as I can tell, troglodytes are only proficient with simple weapons, but their natural weapons are not, as such, simple.
This is related to the Monk proficiency debacle but is not quite the same thing.Projects: Homebrew, Gentlemen's Agreement, DMPCs, Forbidden Knowledge safety, and Top Ten Worst. Also, Quotes and RACSD are good.
Anyone knows blue is for sarcas'ing in · "Take 10 SAN damage from Dark Orchid" · Use of gray may indicate nitpicking · Green is sincerity
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2014-02-26, 04:08 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dysfunctional Rules Thread V: Dysfunctions All the Way Down
I can never remember whether there's a rule anywhere saying that creatures are always proficient with their own natural weapons. If so, then the above is not dysfunctional. If not, then almost everything in the game that has or gives natural weapons has the same problem.
Similar, definite dysfunction: A standard, straight-from-the-Monster-Manual Gnoll uses a battleaxe and a shortbow, but is not proficient with either.
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2014-02-26, 04:19 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dysfunctional Rules Thread V: Dysfunctions All the Way Down
It seems that the Type is what determine proficiency. Humanoids aren't listed as being proficient with their natural weapons.
"Proficient with all simple weapons, or by character class."
That's it. Other entries usually have "proficient with natural weapons only" or "proficient with whatever weapons are mentioned in its entry" or other such stuff.
The section on "Natural Weapons" in the SRD at least, doesn't mention proficiency one way or the other. Nor does weapon proficiency in general. I think at some point they didn't think that term applied to natural weapons.
They'd be ok if they were monstrous humanoids.Last edited by Drachasor; 2014-02-26 at 04:20 AM.
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2014-02-26, 04:27 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dysfunctional Rules Thread V: Dysfunctions All the Way Down
How does a humanoid gain proficiency with natural weapons if they aren't, as I assumed, simple? They wouldn't be martial or exotic.
Tome of the Holy Grail: Draw power from legendary heroes.|The Dashing Dualist: Two weapons. One happy ending.|The Shifter: Be all that you can be.|The Professional: Mundanes, competent.|The Wuxia Fighter: Mundanes, Wacky.|The Generalist: Do literally everything.
Skill Trick Compendium|Cantrips for Days|Complete Control Revamped: Customize everything.|Bek's Book of Blissful Bewitchment: Who wants to spend their life in a musty cave?
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2014-02-26, 04:41 AM (ISO 8601)
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2014-02-26, 05:36 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dysfunctional Rules Thread V: Dysfunctions All the Way Down
I'm not sure if my post got eaten by the end-of-thread stuff, but is Fiend Folio 3.5?
If so, the Vorr has a "Shadow Form" with DR 50/+5, but no clause saying it can't attack while in that form.
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2014-02-26, 06:57 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dysfunctional Rules Thread V: Dysfunctions All the Way Down
Neither is quite the case. All types except Humanoid explicitly provide that all creatures of that type are proficient with either a) natural weapons or b) whatever they are described as using. So it's only those Humanoids that foolishly chose to grow natural weapons that might have a problem here. (Ninja'd because of a browser crash and ensuing distraction.)
Similar, definite dysfunction: A standard, straight-from-the-Monster-Manual Gnoll uses a battleaxe and a shortbow, but is not proficient with either.Projects: Homebrew, Gentlemen's Agreement, DMPCs, Forbidden Knowledge safety, and Top Ten Worst. Also, Quotes and RACSD are good.
Anyone knows blue is for sarcas'ing in · "Take 10 SAN damage from Dark Orchid" · Use of gray may indicate nitpicking · Green is sincerity
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2014-02-26, 08:12 AM (ISO 8601)
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2014-02-26, 09:03 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dysfunctional Rules Thread V: Dysfunctions All the Way Down
π = 4
Consider a 5' radius blast: this affects 4 squares which have a circumference of 40' — Actually it's worse than that.
Completely Dysfunctional Handbook
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2014-02-26, 09:14 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dysfunctional Rules Thread V: Dysfunctions All the Way Down
Wiki - Q&A - FB - LIn - Tw
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2014-02-26, 09:23 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dysfunctional Rules Thread V: Dysfunctions All the Way Down
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2014-02-26, 09:34 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dysfunctional Rules Thread V: Dysfunctions All the Way Down
If it did say that everything is proficient with its natural weapons, then monks would be fine, since unarmed strike is a natural weapon (albeit a peculiar one). Alas, though, it does not.
Totemists, though, explicitly gain proficiency with the natural weapons they shape.
And the Fiend Folio was officially updated to 3.5, but the Vorr wasn't mentioned in the update, leaving it unclear what its DR should be. In any event, it was certainly dysfunctional under 3.0 rules, since its DR would be completely insurmountable for any 4th-level party.Time travels in divers paces with divers persons.
—As You Like It, III:ii:328
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2014-02-26, 11:15 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dysfunctional Rules Thread V: Dysfunctions All the Way Down
All DR that is 10X/+X in 3.5 is changed to /magic, so the DR isn't necessarily a dysfunction, though it unfortunately stands at an unrealistic 50. The shadow form by itself is definitely lacking in rules to explain things.
I love that we've managed to fill 4 threads with this stuff.Last edited by The Viscount; 2014-02-26 at 11:16 AM.
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2014-02-26, 11:26 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dysfunctional Rules Thread V: Dysfunctions All the Way Down
Not necessarily a dysfunction, per se, but an oddity pertaining to AoO and Combat Reflexes (and no, it's not the Thicket of Blades discussion we've been having in the last thread). According to the AoO rules:
If you have the Combat Reflexes feat you can add your Dexterity modifier to the number of attacks of opportunity you can make in a round. This feat does not let you make more than one attack for a given opportunity, but if the same opponent provokes two attacks of opportunity from you, you could make two separate attacks of opportunity (since each one represents a different opportunity). Moving out of more than one square threatened by the same opponent in the same round doesn’t count as more than one opportunity for that opponent. All these attacks are at your full normal attack bonus.runninghustling in acirclesquare around an enemy that has Combat Reflexes and only provoke once, but if he were to walk through a threatened square, stop, and then cast a spell, they'd provoke twice. Even if the one moving through made one and a half loops around the defender (assuming 30' movement, taking a double move action, and the defender being medium sized), the defender can only try to hit him once, no matter how high of a DEX bonus you have…
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2014-02-26, 11:37 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dysfunctional Rules Thread V: Dysfunctions All the Way Down
Sanctify the Wicked has a focus of a diamond costing 10,000gp that is destroyed when the spell is complete. While making it a material component certainly would not fix this, it's not really a focus if it's consumed as part of the spell, is it?
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2014-02-26, 11:51 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dysfunctional Rules Thread V: Dysfunctions All the Way Down
The text I'm reading here suggests that it's a conscious choice to shatter the diamond, not a spell effect. That is, "if some external force shatters the diamond, here's what happens."
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2014-02-26, 12:05 PM (ISO 8601)
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2014-02-26, 12:08 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dysfunctional Rules Thread V: Dysfunctions All the Way Down
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2014-02-26, 12:54 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dysfunctional Rules Thread V: Dysfunctions All the Way Down
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2014-02-26, 01:10 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dysfunctional Rules Thread V: Dysfunctions All the Way Down
Channel Charge feat from Lost Empires of Faerun has the following text:
When you use a spell trigger-magic item with charges (such as a wand or a staff), you can make a Use Magic Device check (DC 15 + the item's caster level). If you succeed, you can sacrifice a spell slot or prepared spell instead of using a charge. The spell slot or spell sacrificed must be one level higher than the level of the desired effect from the item. If the check fails, both your spell slot (or prepared spell) and 1 charge from the item are expended.
Staff Descriptions
Staffs use the wielder’s ability score and relevant feats to set the DC for saves against their spells. Unlike with other sorts of magic items, the wielder can use his caster level when activating the power of a staff if it’s higher than the caster level of the staff.Wiki - Q&A - FB - LIn - Tw
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2014-02-26, 01:53 PM (ISO 8601)
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2014-02-26, 01:55 PM (ISO 8601)
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2014-02-26, 02:23 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dysfunctional Rules Thread V: Dysfunctions All the Way Down
I've got a new fantasy TTRPG about running your own fencing school in a 3 musketeers pastiche setting. Book coming soon.
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2014-02-26, 02:27 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dysfunctional Rules Thread V: Dysfunctions All the Way Down
I'm not so sure. I see two issues with that reading.
Staff Descriptions
Staffs use the wielder’s ability score and relevant feats to set the DC for saves against their spells. Unlike with other sorts of magic items, the wielder can use his caster level when activating the power of a staff if it’s higher than the caster level of the staff.
2. The caster level increase is only for the purposes of activating the staff's power.
The feat is not the staves power and the caster can just decide to not use his caster level in the place of the staff's caster level.
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2014-02-26, 06:35 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dysfunctional Rules Thread V: Dysfunctions All the Way Down
Man this thing was full of outdated stuff.
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2014-02-26, 07:18 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dysfunctional Rules Thread V: Dysfunctions All the Way Down
Tome of the Holy Grail: Draw power from legendary heroes.|The Dashing Dualist: Two weapons. One happy ending.|The Shifter: Be all that you can be.|The Professional: Mundanes, competent.|The Wuxia Fighter: Mundanes, Wacky.|The Generalist: Do literally everything.
Skill Trick Compendium|Cantrips for Days|Complete Control Revamped: Customize everything.|Bek's Book of Blissful Bewitchment: Who wants to spend their life in a musty cave?
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2014-02-26, 08:31 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dysfunctional Rules Thread V: Dysfunctions All the Way Down
Projects: Homebrew, Gentlemen's Agreement, DMPCs, Forbidden Knowledge safety, and Top Ten Worst. Also, Quotes and RACSD are good.
Anyone knows blue is for sarcas'ing in · "Take 10 SAN damage from Dark Orchid" · Use of gray may indicate nitpicking · Green is sincerity
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2014-02-27, 02:33 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dysfunctional Rules Thread V: Dysfunctions All the Way Down
Wait, this means that the Monk/Unarmed strike dysfunction is slightly narrower than I thought. Since say, Monstrous Humanoids do get the magic "Proficient with all simple weapons and any weapons mentioned in its entry." phrase, an Orc monk is proficient with his unarmed strikes, but any normal Humanoid is hosed.
So really its Humanoid Monks, not monks in general.A man once asked me the difference between Ignorance and Apathy. I told him, "I don't know, and I don't care"
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2014-02-27, 03:13 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dysfunctional Rules Thread V: Dysfunctions All the Way Down
Orcs are humanoids, but besides that, Monk unarmed strikes are not, of course, mentioned in the MM entry. So any type without proficiency "in its natural weapons" will have this problem, which means some constructs (including warforged), many dragons, some elementals, all fey, all humanoids, all monstrous humanoids, and all outsiders. The magic wording is really that of giants (or undead, and to a lesser extent aberrations):
Originally Posted by SRD Types and SubtypesProjects: Homebrew, Gentlemen's Agreement, DMPCs, Forbidden Knowledge safety, and Top Ten Worst. Also, Quotes and RACSD are good.
Anyone knows blue is for sarcas'ing in · "Take 10 SAN damage from Dark Orchid" · Use of gray may indicate nitpicking · Green is sincerity