Dysfunctional Rules Thread V: Dysfunctions All the Way Down

[Lightlawbliss]

The Construct type does not give immunity to the Sickened or Nauseated conditions.

- Con however (which most constructs have) if a different story.

[Vedhin]

- Con however (which most constructs have) if a different story.

Nope:

A creature with no Constitution has no body or no metabolism. It is immune to any effect that requires a Fortitude save unless the effect works on objects or is harmless. The creature is also immune to ability damage, ability drain, and energy drain, and automatically fails Constitution checks. A creature with no Constitution cannot tire and thus can run indefinitely without tiring (unless the creature’s description says it cannot run).

Words for the spam filter! Blood for the blood god!

[ZamielVanWeber]

So basically, if you plan on using a shapechanging effect for some natural weapon action, it had better be an effect that changes your type.

Or posses the shapechanger subtype.

[Vedhin]

PHBII, pg 158. The Cunning Ambush Teamwork Benefit allows the team leader to make Hide checks on behalf of team members, in order to conceal them. The team member's Dexterity modifiers and armor check penalties replace those of the team leader for these checks. Their size modifiers do not. So if a flea hides a titan, the titan effectively gets the bonus for being Fine sized. If the titan hides the flea, it is effectively Colossal.

[Telonius]

I just came across a real gem in Races of Stone.

Tumbler's Breastplate: "The wearer receives a +2 circumstance bonus on Tumble checks, but the normal armor check penalty still applies."

From the table: Medium Armor. Speed (30 ft): 20 ft. Speed (20 ft): 15 ft.

From the Tumble skill description: "You can’t use this skill if your speed has been reduced by armor, excess equipment, or loot."



EDIT: Being a dwarf would negate the penalty, and so would a mithral version of it; but seriously.

[illyahr]

Tumbler's Breastplate: "The wearer receives a +2 circumstance bonus on Tumble checks, but the normal armor check penalty still applies."

"We'll give you a bonus on a skill you can't use while wearing this armor cuz we're nice like that."

[nedz]

The Construct type does not give immunity to the Sickened or Nauseated conditions.

How are you getting these conditions ?
Because:

Construct Type
Traits
...
Immunity to any effect that requires a Fortitude save (unless the effect also works on objects, or is harmless).
...

[Sith_Happens]

How are you getting these conditions ?
Because:

I'm positive there's at least one effect somewhere that inflicts sickening or nausea without a Fortitude save and doesn't call out Constructs as immune.

[Vedhin]

How are you getting these conditions ?
Because:

Unholy Blight from the PHB will do the job against Good-aligned constructs.

Destiny Dissonance from the XPH will work against anything.

[nedz]

I'm positive there's at least one effect somewhere that inflicts sickening or nausea without a Fortitude save and doesn't call out Constructs as immune.

Well that effect would be the dysfunction perhaps ? Or at least the combination of the two.

[No brains]

Sanctify the Wicked has a focus of a diamond costing 10,000gp that is destroyed when the spell is complete. While making it a material component certainly would not fix this, it's not really a focus if it's consumed as part of the spell, is it?

That's not even the funniest part of the spell- the spell specifies that the caster of the spell becomes a hated enemy of the target without specifying whether this happens on a failure or success.

"Gee, I agree with you on all moral and ethical dilemmas after that year in the diamond, but I sure hate the crap out of you."

[Sith_Happens]

That's not even the funniest part of the spell- the spell specifies that the caster of the spell becomes a hated enemy of the target without specifying whether this happens on a failure or success.

"Gee, I agree with you on all moral and ethical dilemmas after that year in the diamond, but I sure hate the crap out of you."

It's in the paragraph describing what happens if the diamond is broken prematurely. The previous paragraph describes what happens if it's broken after the year's actually up.

The dysfunction is that nothing says you have to shatter the diamond once a year has passed and the target's converted, you can totally just leave the now-Good creature's soul trapped in there forever.

[Drachasor]

I mentioned this in the last thread, but it didn't seem to make the list:

Magic Jar and Buffs, how do they interact? Do buffs on a target stick with the soul or the body?

If you cast Bull's Strength on yourself, and then move into someone else's body, does the new body have it or your old one?

What about Fox's Cunning?

What about Enlarge Person, Alter Self, Shape Change?

Now here's where it gets trickier...

If you are in a new body and cast....

Anti-Magic Field, what happens? Are you kicked out with the anti-magic field following you, or are you kicked out with the owner of the body keeping the AMF?

What if you cast Protection from Evil or Mind Blank on yourself in the new body? Do you get kicked out or not? If you had them on before you moved, do they stay with you and if so do they kick you out? What if you are a Collegiate Arcanist (PF) of 5th or higher and so have Protection From Evil constantly active, can you not use Magic Jar without dispelling the Protection from Evil First? (The latter applies to similar PrCs and abilities too, of course).

The rules really don't distinguish between a soul, body, and creature 99% of the time, so they really don't handle this at all. A DM can probably handwave it easily enough for some things, but for others it is less clear. And potentially you get the ability to put personal buffs on anyone you want...maybe.

[TypoNinja]

Since spells typically target a "Creature" and the resurrection spells (and outsider/elemental descriptions) establish that a soul is a distinct and separate entity from the body, I'd say the spell stays with the physical form

[Drachasor]

Since spells typically target a "Creature" and the resurrection spells (and outsider/elemental descriptions) establish that a soul is a distinct and separate entity from the body, I'd say the spell stays with the physical form

The game also establishes that dead creatures are objects, and resurrection spells target "dead creatures." So yes, the game establishes that a body isn't a creature necessarily -- though you don't need a soul to have a creature if it is a construct or the like. On the other hand, creature types that have souls seem to need that soul component to be creatures -- otherwise they are just bodies (even magic jar seems to indicate this).

So whether a given ensouled creature is a body with any soul in it, a body with a particular soul in it, or just the soul doesn't seem to be clear. It doesn't SEEM to be just a body, but that doesn't rule out the possibility that a buff might stay behind on the body.

[Drachasor]

Oh, I don't think this has been brought up.

Pathfinder: If you have a Polymorph spell on you, then you are immune to all hostile polymorph effects:

You can only be affected by one polymorph spell at a time. If a new polymorph spell is cast on you (or you activate a polymorph effect, such as wild shape), you can decide whether or not to allow it to affect you, taking the place of the old spell. In addition, other spells that change your size have no effect on you while you are under the effects of a polymorph spell.

Though, this mostly seems limited to Flesh Curdle, Excruciating Deformation, and Polymorph Any Object.* Though there might be some polymorph spell-likes. Flesh to Stone isn't in the Polymorph sub-school -- which is a bit amusing since PAO can duplicate it. (Baleful Polymorph has a line explicitly dispelling other Polymorph effects if you fail the save).

*I might have missed a couple, but most Polymorph spells are beneficial - or ostensibly beneficial.

[Chronos]

Quoth Drachasor:

The game also establishes that dead creatures are objects...

I don't think this is actually true. It's intuitive, but dead creatures not being objects actually resolves a number of dysfunctions.

[squiggit]

Not quite sure if this counts but the epic spell Spell Worm has an odd bit of functionality:

Every round the victim of the spell loses a standard action and one of their highest level spell slots left. The spell goes on to say that if the subject has multiple prepared spells at that level they get to choose which spell they lose... then the ability goes on to say that the victim is unaware that they no longer have access to that spell unless they try to cast it.

So I'm not really sure how you're supposed to reconcile someone actively choosing which spell they lose while somehow still not knowing which one they've lost (or that they're losing them at all).

[georgie_leech]

Not quite sure if this counts but the epic spell Spell Worm has an odd bit of functionality:

Every round the victim of the spell loses a standard action and one of their highest level spell slots left. The spell goes on to say that if the subject has multiple prepared spells at that level they get to choose which spell they lose... then the ability goes on to say that the victim is unaware that they no longer have access to that spell unless they try to cast it.

So I'm not really sure how you're supposed to reconcile someone actively choosing which spell they lose while somehow still not knowing which one they've lost (or that they're losing them at all).

Separation of IC/OOC Knowledge, in the same way that creatures don't know when they've failed a Spot Check. Players would control their PC's spell loss, but their character wouldn't know which one vanished; the DM does likewise for NPC's.

[No brains]

It's in the paragraph describing what happens if the diamond is broken prematurely. The previous paragraph describes what happens if it's broken after the year's actually up.

The dysfunction is that nothing says you have to shatter the diamond once a year has passed and the target's converted, you can totally just leave the now-Good creature's soul trapped in there forever.

When I looked here the bit on hated enemies was in its own paragraph at the end of the rest of the spell effects. I lost my books so that's what I'm going on for now.

So let's see, you can make a good creature hate you forever if you decide to let it out of a prison after a year. Hmm.

Maybe you can just seal some great evil inside of it and put it deep in a dungeon. Its minions and allies will march to their deaths to recover it and when/if they do, they'll get a nasty surprise.

[squiggit]

When I looked here the bit on hated enemies was in its own paragraph at the end of the rest of the spell effects. I lost my books so that's what I'm going on for now.

I just checked my copy of BoED: The hated enemy line is in the same paragraph as the rest of the part about being shattered. The website splitting them up would be inaccurate.

Separation of IC/OOC Knowledge, in the same way that creatures don't know when they've failed a Spot Check. Players would control their PC's spell loss, but their character wouldn't know which one vanished; the DM does likewise for NPC's.

Yeah that's how I'd handle it (Though resisting meta-knowledge like that as a player is hard) my problem comes from the way the text specifies that the spellcaster themselves chooses.

[Sith_Happens]

Maybe you can just seal some great evil inside of it and put it deep in a dungeon. Its minions and allies will march to their deaths to recover it and when/if they do, they'll get a nasty surprise.

This idea. I like it.

[Drachasor]

I don't think this is actually true. It's intuitive, but dead creatures not being objects actually resolves a number of dysfunctions.

I think I was misremembering a FAQ answer as RAW, which it isn't. But more vagueness doesn't really resolve the issues with Magic Jar.

[Drachasor]

Here's an odd one.

Permanency: It has a duration of "Permanent." It changes the target spell to have a duration of "Permanent."

So you cast a targeted Dispel Magic on a guy who only has a Permanent Detect Magic.

By RAW you make two dispel checks. One for the Detect Magic and one for the Permanency. Both of these have a Permanent Duration right now. If you dispel either, you dispel the spell. It's a unclear how this works with spells that have an actual duration (rather than concentration). Does the original duration play out after the dispel or is it considered to have already played out?

And a further oddity. Can you dispel the original spell if your Caster Level is less than the caster of Permanency (assuming a self-buff)? The text is: "This application of permanency can be dispelled only by a caster of higher level than you were when you cast the spell." Is the application just the Permanency Spell? Or does it also protect the original spell from being dispelled? It reads like the former to me (you can dispel the original spell, but not the permanency if your CL is too low...oddly this leaves the original spell gone but the Permanent modifier on it still there).*

In any case, I doubt the intention was to have two spells to dispel here. Permanency should probably have a duration of "instantaneous". Dispel protections should have clearly protected the targeted spell.

*Though since it basically targets a spell, it probably goes away. Then again, the exact target isn't clear. Is it the spell or the person/object/area?

[Erik Vale]

Here's a new one.
Wizard's need Read Magic to read their spell books, or need to make a DC20+Spell level check check for each spell they want to prepare without using read magic, with each failure being something you can't repeat.

This means, wizards need to spend 15 minutes to prep a cantrip [preparing part of their list] before they can actually spend an hour prepping the rest of their spell slots, unless they've boosted their skill checks and are well past level 1. [Need a Skill mod of 10+Max spell level cast to prepare them all in one go by taking 10]

[Inevitability]

Dunno if this has been posted before, but by RAW, you can coup de grace somebody with a WHIP. And kill them.

A perfectly average guy, who just picks up a whip can still deal 6 damage with a coup de grace, forcing a DC 16 fortitude save. Since you always fail on a natural 1 when making a saving throw, you could kill something like a Great Wyrm. That's right. A first level commoner who happens to have chosen a weird feat can kill the most powerful dragon alive with a whip.

[Drachasor]

Here's a new one.
Wizard's need Read Magic to read their spell books, or need to make a DC20+Spell level check check for each spell they want to prepare without using read magic, with each failure being something you can't repeat.

This means, wizards need to spend 15 minutes to prep a cantrip [preparing part of their list] before they can actually spend an hour prepping the rest of their spell slots, unless they've boosted their skill checks and are well past level 1. [Need a Skill mod of 10+Max spell level cast to prepare them all in one go by taking 10]

You don't actually have to do this:

Once a character deciphers a particular magical writing, she does not need to decipher it again. Deciphering a magical writing allows the reader to identify the spell and gives some idea of its effects (as explained in the spell description). If the magical writing was a scroll and the reader can cast arcane spells, she can attempt to use the scroll.

Now, the rules don't actually say you automatically understand the spells in your spellbook. On the other hand, the rules don't say you need to decipher the spells in it to prepare them. You only have to do that for borrowed books.

Though the prep check is pretty easy at 15+Spell Level on Spellcraft. Since you can take 10 this shouldn't be a problem for anyone.

[Malcador]

Dunno if this has been posted before, but by RAW, you can coup de grace somebody with a WHIP. And kill them.

A perfectly average guy, who happens to pick up a whip can still deal 6 damage with a coup de grace, forcing a DC 16 fortitude save. Since you always fail on a natural 1 when making a saving throw, you could kill something like a Great Wyrm. That's right. Tim the first level commoner who happens to have chosen a weird feat can kill the most powerful dragon alive with a whip.

Isn't the point of a coup de grace that you can kill just about anything with enough time and access to its vital organs? If you can get a Great Wyrm helpless for 2 minutes (20 full-round actions, effectively "taking 1" on its save), I think you deserve to kill it. If you want to try your luck, 5% of the time you get it right on the first attempt, but this just represents that 5% of the time you happen to jab the whip handle in just the right place.

[TuggyNE]

Dunno if this has been posted before, but by RAW, you can coup de grace somebody with a WHIP. And kill them.

A perfectly average guy, who just picks up a whip can still deal 6 damage with a coup de grace, forcing a DC 16 fortitude save. Since you always fail on a natural 1 when making a saving throw, you could kill something like a Great Wyrm. That's right. A first level commoner who happens to have chosen a weird feat can kill the most powerful dragon alive with a whip.

Not entirely sure if it works, given the text in Regeneration that indicates that nonlethal damage can't be used for coup de grace attempts. However, there's an argument to be made that the special quality rules don't apply in general despite their obvious general applicability, so in my tweaks to coup de grace I rolled it all in.

[Inevitability]

The point is that you're killing a monster as big as a small castle that has scales strong as steel and can breathe fire by HITTING IT WITH A WHIP.

You're saying that 5% of the time, you can hit a vital spot of the dragon. How? Even if you can get trough its scales, the whip is way to short to reach anything but its dermis. I can't see how scratching its dermis would kill a dragon.

Even more extreme, a PIXIE could kill a great wyrm with a whip. The scales of the dragon are probably thicker than the whip's length. It just makes no sense.