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    PirateGirl

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    Default Pseudonatural Template and Undead

    The thread on Pseudonatural Template and Lich Template led me to see how I'd apply the pseudonatural template to a ghoul. Following the template as best I could here is the result. YMMV. The turn resistance now applies to things that can turn outsiders or creatures from the Far Realms.

    I think I applied the Template as written. You can see the template here: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monst...alCreature.htm

    Pseudonatural Ghoul
    Medium Outsider (Augmented Undead, Extraplanar)
    Hit Dice: 2d12 (24 hp)
    Initiative: +2
    Speed: 60 ft. (12 squares)
    Armor Class: 47 (+2 Dex, +35 natural), touch 12, flat-footed 45
    Base Attack/Grapple: +1/+13
    Attack: Bite +28 melee (1d6+12 plus paralysis) or tentacle rake + 28 melee (2d8+12)
    Full Attack: Bite +28 melee (1d6+12 plus paralysis) and 2 claws +23 melee (1d3 +6 plus paralysis) or 2 tentacle rakes +28 melee (2d8+12)
    Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
    Special Attacks: Ghoul fever, improved grab, paralysis, rotting constriction, spell-like abilities
    Special Qualities: Alternate form, constant insight, damage reduction 5/epic, darkvision 60 ft., outsider traits, resistance to acid and electricity 15, spell resistance 10, +2 turn resistance
    Saves: Fort +0, Ref +2, Will +5
    Abilities: Str 35, Dex 25, Con 10, Int 13, Wis 24, Cha 12
    Skills: Balance +6, Climb +5, Hide +6, Jump +5, Move Silently +6, Spot +7
    Feats: Multiattack
    Environment: Far Realms
    Organization: Solitary, gang (2-4), or pack (7-12)
    Challenge Rating: 17
    Treasure: None
    Alignment: Always chaotic evil
    Advancement: 3 HD (Medium)
    Level Adjustment:

    Pseudonatural ghouls speak the languages they spoke in life (usually Common).

    Combat

    Pseudonatural ghouls try to attack with surprise whenever possible. They strike from behind tombstones and burst from shallow graves.

    Alternate Form (Su): At will, a pseudonatural creature can take the form of a grotesque, tentacled mass (or another appropriately gruesome form), but all its abilities remain unchanged despite the alien appearance. Changing shape is a standard action. Other creatures receive a -1 morale penalty on their attack rolls against pseudonatural creatures in this alternate form.

    Constant Insight (Su): The creature makes all its attacks with a +15 insight bonus. The creature is not affected by the miss chance that applies to attacks against a concealed target.

    Ghoul Fever (Su): Disease—bite, Fortitude DC 12, incubation period 1 day, damage 1d3 Con and 1d3 Dex. The save DC is Charisma-based.
    An afflicted humanoid who dies of ghoul fever rises as a ghoul at the next midnight. A humanoid who becomes a ghoul in this way retains none of the abilities it possessed in life. It is not under the control of any other ghouls, but it hungers for the flesh of the living and behaves like a normal ghoul in all respects. A humanoid of 4 Hit Dice or more rises as a ghast, not a ghoul.

    Improved Grab (Ex): If the creature hits an opponent smaller than it with a tentacle, it deals normal damage and attempts to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity.

    Paralysis (Ex): Those hit by a ghoul’s bite or claw attack must succeed on a DC 12 Fortitude save or be paralyzed for 1d4+1 rounds. Elves have immunity to this paralysis. The save DC is Charisma-based.

    Rotting Constriction (Ex): Once the creature has hold of an opponent, each successful grapple check it makes during subsequent rounds permanently drains 2d4 points of Constitution. At the same time, the creature regains 10 lost hit points.

    Spell-Like Abilities (Sp): At will—blur, dimension door, shield, unhallow. Caster level 20th. The DCs are Charisma-based.

    Debby
    Last edited by Debihuman; 2014-02-26 at 05:02 PM.
    P.E.A.C.H. Please Evaluate And Critique Honestly. Being nicer and kinder doesn't hurt either. Note I generally only critique 3.5 and Pathfinder material.
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    Devil

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    Default Re: Pseudonatural Template and Undead

    Adding con to a score that should be - does not suddenly create a con score.
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    Default Re: Pseudonatural Template and Undead

    Quote Originally Posted by NosferatuZodd View Post
    Adding con to a score that should be - does not suddenly create a con score.
    We had this argument in the other thread, but the short version is that Debi and I consider losing the Undead type to, in itself, force the loss of the Con - trait and thus restore some sort of Con by necessity. Exactly what the Con score is after such a type change is not so clear, however.
    Quote Originally Posted by Water_Bear View Post
    That's RAW for you; 100% Rules-Legal, 110% silly.
    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    "Common sense" and "RAW" are not exactly on speaking terms
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    Default Re: Pseudonatural Template and Undead

    So the justification you have is loose at best.

    In terms of just common sense, I don't see a reason why a lich suddenly gaining this template and becoming an outsider would magically bring back it's physical health.
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    Default Re: Pseudonatural Template and Undead

    Quote Originally Posted by NosferatuZodd View Post
    In terms of just common sense, I don't see a reason why a lich suddenly gaining this template and becoming an outsider would magically bring back it's physical health.
    By the time you're applying Pseudonatural common sense left the building fifteen levels back.
    Quote Originally Posted by Water_Bear View Post
    That's RAW for you; 100% Rules-Legal, 110% silly.
    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
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    PirateGirl

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    Default Re: Pseudonatural Template and Undead

    Yep, the Template probably should have said that it only works on living corporeal creatures. When you change Type, all manner of weirdness happens. Imagine what it does to Constructs? Technically, they'd gain the Living subtype (which was not even invented until after this template was made as the Epic book came out in 2001 and Eberron Campaign Setting came out 2004).

    As I said earlier, I don't make the rules but I do follow them as written. The template says to add +10 Con. The logic of that escapes me as well, but hey, I didn't make the template. I even checked the FAQ to see if there was a clue about this and it had nothing.

    I actually prefer the Pseudonatural Creature template from Complete Arcane because the Con ability doesn't change and it specifically says it retains all the base creature's special qualities. If you use that template this is what you get:

    Pseudonatural Ghoul
    Medium Outsider (Augmented Undead)
    Hit Dice: 2d12 (13 hp)
    Initiative: +2
    Speed: 30 ft. (6 squares)
    Armor Class: 14 (+2 Dex, +2 natural), touch 12, flat-footed 12
    Base Attack/Grapple: +1/+2
    Attack: Bite +2 melee (1d6+1 plus paralysis)
    Full Attack: Bite +2 melee (1d6+1 plus paralysis) and 2 claws +0 melee (1d3 plus paralysis)
    Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
    Special Attacks: Ghoul fever, paralysis, true strike
    Special Qualities: Alternate form, darkvision 60 ft., resistance to acid and electricity 5, spell resistance 12, outsider traits1 +2 turn resistance
    Saves: Fort +0, Ref +2, Will +5
    Abilities: Str 13, Dex 15, Con Ø, Int 13, Wis 14, Cha 12
    Skills: Balance +6, Climb +5, Hide +6, Jump +5, Move Silently +6, Spot +7
    Feats: Multiattack
    Environment: Any land and underground
    Organization: Solitary, gang (2-4), or pack (7-12)
    Challenge Rating: 1
    Treasure: None
    Alignment: Always chaotic evil
    Advancement: 3 HD (Medium)
    Level Adjustment:

    Ghouls speak the languages they spoke in life (usually Common).

    Combat

    Ghouls try to attack with surprise whenever possible. They strike from behind tombstones and burst from shallow graves.

    Alternate Form (Su): As a standard action, a pseudonatural creature can take the form of a grotesque, tentacled mass (or another appropriately gruesome form, as determined by the DM). Despite the alien appearance, its abilities remain unchanged. Other creatures receive a -1 morale penalty on their attack rolls against a pseudonatural creature when it is in this alternate form.

    Ghoul Fever (Su): Disease—bite, Fortitude DC 12, incubation period 1 day, damage 1d3 Con and 1d3 Dex. The save DC is Charisma-based.
    An afflicted humanoid who dies of ghoul fever rises as a ghoul at the next midnight. A humanoid who becomes a ghoul in this way retains none of the abilities it possessed in life. It is not under the control of any other ghouls, but it hungers for the flesh of the living and behaves like a normal ghoul in all respects. A humanoid of 4 Hit Dice or more rises as a ghast, not a ghoul.

    Paralysis (Ex): Those hit by a ghoul’s bite or claw attack must succeed on a DC 12 Fortitude save or be paralyzed for 1d4+1 rounds. Elves have immunity to this paralysis. The save DC is Charisma-based.

    True Strike (Su): Once per day, a pseudonatural creature can gain a +20 insight bonus on a single attack roll. In addition, the creature suffers no miss chance against a target that has concealment or total concealment when making this attack.

    1 even though this ghoul is an outsider, it is still has no constitution score.

    A creature with no Constitution has no body or no metabolism. It is immune to any effect that requires a Fortitude save unless the effect works on objects or is harmless. The creature is also immune to ability damage, ability drain, and energy drain, and automatically fails Constitution checks. A creature with no Constitution cannot tire and thus can run indefinitely without tiring (unless the creature’s description says it cannot run).
    Last edited by Debihuman; 2014-02-27 at 03:11 PM.
    P.E.A.C.H. Please Evaluate And Critique Honestly. Being nicer and kinder doesn't hurt either. Note I generally only critique 3.5 and Pathfinder material.
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    Default Re: Pseudonatural Template and Undead

    The far realm is a strange place. While it doesn't make sense as to why it would give vitality to something that doesn't possess it, we seem to be forgetting the place we are talking about.

    I think you could get some pretty horrifying creatures by applying the psudonatural creature templates to the undead. Just for kicks, here is an advanced Psudonatural Nightwalker.

    Advanced Pseudonatural Nightwalker
    Gargantuan Outsider (Augmented Undead, Extraplanar)
    Hit Dice: 42d12+252+84 (840 hp)
    Initiative: +11
    Speed: 80 ft (16 squares)., fly 40 ft. (poor)
    Armor Class: 48 (–4 size, +7 Dex, +35 natural), touch 13, flat-footed 41
    Base Attack/Grapple: +21/+62
    Attack: Slam +63 melee (3d6+31), or tentacle rake +63 melee (2d8+31)
    Full Attack: 2 slams +63 melee (3d6+31), or 13 Tentacle rakes +63 melee (2d8+31)
    Space/Reach: 20 ft./20 ft.
    Special Attacks: Constant insight, crush item, desecrating aura, evil gaze, improved grab, rotting constriction, spell-like abilities, summon undead
    Special Qualities: Alternate form, aversion to daylight, damage reduction 70/+15, darkvision 60 ft., immunity to cold, outsider traits, resistance to acid and electricity 65, spell resistance 29, telepathy 100 ft.
    Saves: Fort +16, Ref +14, Will +23
    Abilities: Str 68, Dex 24, Con 22, Int 20, Wis 30, Cha 18
    Skills: Concentration +51, Diplomacy +8, Hide +35*, Knowledge (arcana) +50, Listen +55, Move Silently +52, Search +50, Sense Motive +55, Spellcraft +52, Spot +55, Survival +13 (+15 following tracks)
    Feats: Awesome Blow, Cleave, Combat Expertise, Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Great Cleave, Great Fortitude, Improved Bullrush, Improved Disarm, Improved Initiative, Mobility, Power Attack, Quicken Spell-Like Ability (unholy blight), Spring Attack, Whirlwind Attack
    Environment: Far-Realm
    Organization: Solitary, pair, or gang (3–4)
    Challenge Rating: 36
    Treasure: Standard
    Alignment: Always chaotic evil
    Level Adjustment:

    Pseudonatural nightwalkers (sometimes simply called pseudowalkers) are immense creatures composed of darkness and evil, warped by the maddening influence of the far-realm.
    A pseudonatural nightwalker appears roughly humanoid in shape, standing nearly 60 feet tall and weighing just upwards of 100 tons. Its flesh is as black as night, though countless pupil-less eyes cover it's surface, at a distance giving the faint appearance of stars. From it's body13 massive tentacles sprout, lined with black barbs, soulless orbs of white, and vestigial gnashing maws, all appearing haphazardly along it's surface. While they can read and understand all forms of communication and certainly have no shortage of mouths to communicate with, they never use them to do so, preferring to make use of their inherent telepathy.

    Alternate Form (Su): At will, a pseudonatural nightwalker can take the form of a grotesque, tentacled mass (or another appropriately gruesome form), but all its abilities remain unchanged despite the alien appearance. Changing shape is a standard action. Other creatures receive a -1 morale penalty on their attack rolls against pseudonatural creatures in this alternate form.
    Aversion to Daylight (Ex): Psudonatural nightwalkers are creatures of utter darkness and loathe all light. If exposed to natural daylight, they take a -4 penalty on all attack rolls, saving throws, and skill checks.
    Constant Insight (Su): A pseudonatural nightwalker makes all its attacks with a +15 insight bonus. The creature is not affected by the miss chance that applies to attacks against a concealed target.
    Crush Item (Su): A pseudonatural nightwalker can destroy any weapon or item of Large size or smaller (even magic ones, but not artifacts) by picking it up and crushing it between its hands. The pseudonatural nightwalker must make a successful disarm attempt to grab an item held by an opponent. The item is entitled to a DC 34 Fortitude save to resist destruction. The save DC is Strength-based.
    Desecrating Aura (Su): A pseudonatural nightwalker gives off a 20-foot radius emanation of utter desecration, imbuing their surroundings with negative energy. This ability works much like a desecrate spell, except that the pseudonatural nightwalker's evil is so great that it is treated as the shrine of an evil power. All undead within 20 feet of the pseudonatural nightwalker (including the pseudonatural nightwalker, in spite of it's changed type) gain a +2 profane bonus on attack rolls, damage rolls, and saving throws, and +2 hit points per HD.Charisma checks made to turn undead within this area take a -6 penalty.
    A pseudonatural nightwalker's desecrating aura cannot be dispelled except by a dispel evil spell or similar effect. If the effect is dispelled, the pseudonatural nightwalker can resume it as a free action on its next turn. Its desecrating aura is suppressed if the pseudonatural nightwalker enters a consecrated or hollowed area, but the pseudonatural nightwalker's presence also suppresses the consecrated or hallowed effect for as long as it remains in the area.
    Evil Gaze (Su): Fear, 30 feet. A creature that meets the pseudonatural nightwalker’s gaze must succeed on a DC 24 Will save or be paralyzed with fear for 1d8 rounds. Whether or not the save is successful, that creature cannot be affected again by the same nightshade’s gaze for 24 hours. This is a mind-affecting fear effect. The save DC is Charisma-based.
    Improved Grab (Ex): If a pseudonatural nightwalker hits an opponent smaller than it with a tentacle, it deals normal damage and attempts to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity.
    Rotting Constriction (Ex): Once a pseudonatural nightwalker has hold of an opponent, each successful grapple check it makes during subsequent rounds permanently drains 2d4 points of Constitution. At the same time, the creature regains 10 lost hit points.
    Spell-Like Abilities: At will—blur (CL 20), contagion (DC 38), deeper darkness, detect magic, dimension door (CL 20), greater dispel magic, haste, see invisibility, shield (CL 20), unhallow (CL 20) and unholy blight (DC 39); 3/day—confusion (DC 38), hold monster (DC 39), invisibility; 1/day—cone of cold (DC 40), finger of death (DC 42), plane shift (DC 40). Caster level 21st except where noted.
    Summon Undead (Su): A nightwalker can summon undead creatures once per night: 7–12 shadows, 2–5 greater shadows, or 1–2 dread wraiths. The undead arrive in 1d10 rounds and serve for 1 hour or until released.
    Skills: *When hiding in a dark area, a nightwalker gains a +8 racial bonus on Hide checks.





    Though, suddenly I'm thinking about a Pseudonatural Flesh Colossus.. Now that would be a horror to behold.


    Edit: I could have sworn I had made the swap on traits.. Oh well, nothing a simple edit cannot fix.
    Last edited by Xuldarinar; 2014-02-27 at 04:48 PM.

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    Troll in the Playground
     
    PirateGirl

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    Default Re: Pseudonatural Template and Undead

    If you use the Epic version, remember to swap Outsider traits for Undead traits.

    Debby
    P.E.A.C.H. Please Evaluate And Critique Honestly. Being nicer and kinder doesn't hurt either. Note I generally only critique 3.5 and Pathfinder material.
    Please, please, please when using non-core material, cite to the books. There are too many books to wade through to find the one with the feat, special ability or spell you use.
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    Default Re: Pseudonatural Template and Undead

    If anything, wouldn't the only thing that makes sense is to either ignore con or just change the con bonus to the cha bonus?


    Everytime an undead needs an 'effective con' the books have used charisma as a substitute.


    Again, you really don't provide any subtext as to why adding something to something that isn't 0, it's literally just not there, would somehow equal a brand new score.
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    Default Re: Pseudonatural Template and Undead

    Quote Originally Posted by NosferatuZodd View Post
    If anything, wouldn't the only thing that makes sense is to either ignore con or just change the con bonus to the cha bonus?


    Everytime an undead needs an 'effective con' the books have used charisma as a substitute.


    Again, you really don't provide any subtext as to why adding something to something that isn't 0, it's literally just not there, would somehow equal a brand new score.
    The reason is that he's reading the change of type as voiding the traits of the old type in favor of the traits of a new type.

    Thus you lose undead traits. This makes you lose the "no con score" trait of undead. This makes you have a con score.

    The above, I can agree with. He's not adding +10 to -, he's adding 10 to the arbitary number of con that the now outsider ghoul must have, because it's not undead anymore.

    Sadly, no one has a freaking clue as to what this arbitary con score is, but debi infers that it's 0.

    Which, frankly, I think is stupid, because remember what happens when something has 0 con?

    That's right, if you make an undead change type and get a con score without getting a bonus, under debi's rules it'd die.


    I myself, like to use the method of awaken and incarnate construct - the new stat is determined by 4d6b3 or 3d6, respectively.

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    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: Pseudonatural Template and Undead

    You don't lose Undead traits when the Psuedonatural template is applied. The template specifically says that the creature retains all special qualities of the base creature and Undead traits are a special quality.

    I reiterate, there is no rules precedence for this nonsense.

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    Default Re: Pseudonatural Template and Undead

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanuki Tales View Post
    You don't lose Undead traits when the Psuedonatural template is applied. The template specifically says that the creature retains all special qualities of the base creature and Undead traits are a special quality.

    I reiterate, there is no rules precedence for this nonsense.
    Yes there is. I want to agree, but...

    Augmented Subtype: A creature receives this subtype when-ever something happens to change its original type. Some creatures are born with this subtype; others acquire it when they take on an acquired template. The augmented subtype is always paired with the creature's original type. For example, a wizard's raven familiar is a magical beast (augmented animal). A creature with the augmented subtype usually has the traits of it's current type, but the features of its original type.

    You keep the undead features, but replace their traits with that of the outsider type. Because of the mechanics, templates that convert creatures to undead have to specify certain changes that by RaW wouldn't otherwise occur, like their HD being changed to d12.

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    Default Re: Pseudonatural Template and Undead

    I disagree. While traits from type are listed on the Special Abilities line, they are from Type so if your type changes so do your traits. You can argue all you like but the Type determines traits and if your type changes so do your traits per this: "Unless a template indicates otherwise, the new creature has the traits of the new type but the features of the original type."

    When a creature gains ghost or zombie template, it keeps its base special qualities but still gains undead traits. You don't see Humanoid traits listed. Granted it would defeat the purpose of the template but how traits are applied does need to be consistent or it is meaningless.

    However, racial traits are kept so a Human Zombie retains its human bonus feat even though it only has undead traits (see FAQ).

    The sample celestial lion from the Monster Manual is missing "outsider traits" as well. However, creature traits really don't even need to be listed in the special quality line unless they are different from it type. If it is missing you can figure out what it is supposed to be just by looking at type. If there is a change from the base creature or from standard type, that's usually noted in the text. A creature that lacks a constitution score has the following: " A creature with no Constitution has no body or no metabolism. It is immune to any effect that requires a Fortitude save unless the effect works on objects or is harmless. The creature is also immune to ability damage, ability drain, and energy drain, and automatically fails Constitution checks. A creature with no Constitution cannot tire and thus can run indefinitely without tiring (unless the creature’s description says it cannot run)."

    Debby
    Last edited by Debihuman; 2014-02-27 at 03:06 PM.
    P.E.A.C.H. Please Evaluate And Critique Honestly. Being nicer and kinder doesn't hurt either. Note I generally only critique 3.5 and Pathfinder material.
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    Default Re: Pseudonatural Template and Undead

    I'm having fun with this.. so many possibilities.

    I give to you a fully advanced Iron Colossus, with the pseudonatural template. Call it what ever you like. It wouldn't be usable in most campaigns but it is impressive, at least I think it is.

    Spoiler
    Show

    Advanced Pseudonatural Iron Colossus
    Colossal Outsider (Augmented Construct, Extraplanar)
    Hit Dice: 288d10+2304 (5184 hp)
    Initiative: +3
    Speed: 100 ft. (can’t run)
    Armor Class: 65 (–8 size, +3 Dex, +60 natural), touch 5, flat-footed 60
    Base Attack/Grapple: +216/+278
    Attack: Slam +271 melee (12d6+48), or tentacle rake +271 melee (2d8+48)
    Full Attack: 2 slams +271 melee (12d6+48), or 74 tentacle rakes +271 melee (2d8+48)
    Space/Reach: 40 ft./25 ft.
    Special Attacks: Breath weapon, constant insight, improved grab, rotting constriction, spell-like abilities
    Special Qualities: Alternate form, antimagic field, damage reduction 375/+76, magic immunity, outsider traits, resistance to acid and electricity 370, rust proof
    Saves: Fort +109, Ref +99, Will +102
    Abilities: Str 102, Dex 17, Con 26, Int 9, Wis 22, Cha 7
    Skills:
    Feats:
    Environment: Far Realm
    Organization: Solitary
    Challenge Rating: 91
    Treasure: None
    Alignment: Usually neutral
    Level Adjustment:


    Alternate Form (Su): At will, a pseudonatural iron colossus can take the form of a grotesque, tentacled mass, but all its abilities remain unchanged despite the alien appearance. Changing shape is a standard action. Other creatures receive a -1 morale penalty on their attack rolls against pseudonatural iron colossi in this alternate form.
    Antimagic Field (Ex): A pseudonatural iron colossus generates an antimagic field in a 100-foot-radius. The field is an invisible barrier that is impervious to most magical effects, including spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural abilities. Likewise, it prevents the functioning of any magic items or spells within its confines, except for the colossus's own supernatural abilities. This effect is otherwise as an antimagic field cast by a 25th-level caster.
    Breath Weapon (Su): Cone of poisonous gas, 80 feet, as a free action every 1d4 rounds, initial damage 3d6 temporary Con, secondary damage 2d6 temporary Con, Fort half (DC 58).
    Constant Insight (Su): A pseudonatural iron colossus makes all its attacks with a +15 insight bonus. A pseudonatural iron colossus is not affected by the miss chance that applies against a concealed target.
    Improved Grab (Ex): If a pseudonatural iron colossus hits an opponent smaller than it with a tentacle, it deals normal damage and attempts to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity.
    Magic Immunity (Ex): A pseudonatural iron colossus completely resists most magical and supernatural effects, except as follows. An electricity effect restores 1 hit point to the pseudonatural colossus for each 3 points of damage it would otherwise deal.
    Rotting Constriction (Ex): Once a pseudonatural colossus has hold of an opponent, each successful grapple check it makes during subsequent rounds permanently drains 2d4 points of Constitution. At the same time, the pseudonatural iron colossus regains 10 lost hit points.
    Rustproof (Ex): A pseudonatural iron colossus is not affected by rust attacks, unlike smaller iron golems.
    Spell-like Abilities: At Will- blur, dimension door, shield, unhallow. Caster level 20th.


    I understand the opposition to changing a non-ability into an ability based on changing type, and for the smaller creatures it may be less than helpful, but on the larger ones things work themselves out.
    Last edited by Xuldarinar; 2014-02-27 at 04:58 PM.

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    Default Re: Pseudonatural Template and Undead

    I think you are missing how DR works. You gain DR 15/epic if you have at least 21-24 HD. However, damage reduction does not stack so that is the most any pseudonatural creature can have (unless of course the base creature's DR is better, in which case you use the better one). This is why it doesn't say +15/epic.

    My corrections are in red. Put the name of the creature in the stat block. Damage Reduction does not stack so the most you can have is DR 15/epic plus whatever the base creature had.

    Advanced Pseudonatural Nightwalker
    Gargantuan Outsider (Augmented Undead, Extraplanar)
    Hit Dice: 42d12+336 (840 hp)
    Initiative: +11
    Speed: 80 ft (16 squares)., fly 40 ft. (poor)
    Armor Class: 48 (–4 size, +7 Dex, +35 natural), touch 13, flat-footed 41
    Base Attack/Grapple: +21/+62
    Attack: Slam +63 melee (3d6+31), or tentacle rake +63 melee (2d8+31)
    Full Attack: 2 slams +63 melee (3d6+31), or 13 Tentacle rakes +63 melee (2d8+31)
    Space/Reach: 20 ft./20 ft.
    Special Attacks: Constant insight, crush item, desecrating aura, evil gaze, improved grab, rotting constriction, spell-like abilities, summon undead
    Special Qualities: Alternate form, aversion to daylight, damage resistance 15/epic and silver, darkvision 60 ft., immunity to cold, outsider traits, resistance to acid and electricity 65, spell resistance 29, telepathy 100 ft.

    Advanced Pseudonatural Iron Colossus

    Put Special Abilities in alphabetical order. It has DR 20/epic and adamantine.

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    Last edited by Debihuman; 2014-02-27 at 04:37 PM.
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    Default Re: Pseudonatural Template and Undead

    Quote Originally Posted by Debihuman View Post
    I think you are missing how DR works. You gain DR 15/epic if you have at least 21-24 HD. However, damage reduction does not stack so that is the most any pseudonatural creature can have. This is why it doesn't say +15/epic.

    My corrections are in red. Put the name of the creature in the stat block. Damage Reduction does not stack so the most you can have is DR 15/epic plus whatever the base creature had.

    Advanced Pseudonatural Nightwalker
    Gargantuan Outsider (Augmented Undead, Extraplanar)
    Hit Dice: 42d12+336 (840 hp)
    Initiative: +11
    Speed: 80 ft (16 squares)., fly 40 ft. (poor)
    Armor Class: 48 (–4 size, +7 Dex, +35 natural), touch 13, flat-footed 41
    Base Attack/Grapple: +21/+62
    Attack: Slam +63 melee (3d6+31), or tentacle rake +63 melee (2d8+31)
    Full Attack: 2 slams +63 melee (3d6+31), or 13 Tentacle rakes +63 melee (2d8+31)
    Space/Reach: 20 ft./20 ft.
    Special Attacks: Constant insight, crush item, desecrating aura, evil gaze, improved grab, rotting constriction, spell-like abilities, summon undead
    Special Qualities: Alternate form, aversion to daylight, damage resistance 15/epic and silver, darkvision 60 ft., immunity to cold, outsider traits, resistance to acid and electricity 65, spell resistance 29, telepathy 100 ft.

    Advanced Pseudonatural Iron Colossus

    Put Special Abilities in alphabetical order. It has DR 20/epic and adamantine.

    Debby
    The table in the epic level handbook, which I am referring to and not the provided link which is then incorrect unless WotC released an update of that template, for DR when it comes to psuedonatural creatures, advances as follows:

    {table=head]Hit Dice|Damage Reduction
    1-3|20/+5
    4-7|25/+6
    8-11|30/+7
    12-15|35/+8
    16-19|40/+9
    21-24|45/+10
    each 4 more HD|+5/+1 [/table]

    Extending the table, that would look as follows:

    {table=head]Hit Dice|Damage Reduction
    25-28|50/+11
    29-32|55/+12
    33-36|60/+13
    37-40|65/+14
    41-44|70/+15
    45-48|75/+16
    49-52|80/+17
    53-56|85/+18
    57-60|90/+19
    61-64|95/+20
    65-68|100/+21
    69-72|105/+22
    73-76|110/+23
    77-80|115/+24
    81-84|120/+25
    86-88|125/+26
    89-92|130/+27
    93-96|135/+28
    97-100|140/+29
    101-104|145/+30
    105-108|150/+31
    109-112|155/+32
    113-116|160/+33
    117-120|165/+34
    121-124|170/+35
    125-128|175/+36
    129-132|180/+37
    133-136|185/+38
    137-140|190/+39
    141-144|195/+40
    145-148|200/+41
    149-152|205/+42
    153-156|210/+43
    157-160|215/+44
    161-164|220/+45
    165-168|225/+46
    169-172|230/+47
    173-176|235/+48
    177-180|240/+49
    181-184|245/+50
    186-188|250/+51
    189-192|255/+52
    193-196|260/+53
    197-200|265/+54
    201-204|270/+55
    205-208|275/+56
    209-212|280/+57
    213-216|285/+58
    217-220|290/+59
    221-224|295/+60
    225-228|300/+61
    229-232|305/+62
    233-236|310/+63
    237-240|315/+64
    241-244|320/+65
    245-248|325/+66
    249-252|330/+67
    253-256|335/+68
    257-260|340/+69
    261-264|345/+70
    265-268|350/+71
    269-272|355/+72
    273-276|360/+73
    277-280|365/+74
    281-284|370/+75
    286-288|375/+76 [/table]

    Technically speaking, any pseudonatural creature with at least 4HD has an epic DR, but the enhancement bonus. Now, since we are overwriting the DR 15/silver and magic of the Nightwalker with it's equivalent on the table, and we are using the highest advanced version of the nightwalker, we look to what 42 would be on the table, DR 70/+15. Simplified you could easily say DR 70/epic. You can argue it would be 70/epic and silver if you'd like though, but that is combining and not picking the better of the two as the template says to do.

    In the case of the pseudonatural iron colossus, which the version used was raised to 288 HD, it would possess DR 375/+76. So I did slip up on the latter number, but for simplification we could just say DR 375/Epic. Now, if there was an official revision, I am wrong.

    I find it interesting you insisted upon combining the two values added to the pseudonatural nightwalker's hp, but its not unreasonable. I kept them apart as they are from different sources. I cannot argue with your other corrects, because I think you hit that right on the head.

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    Default Re: Pseudonatural Template and Undead

    Yes the Epic stuff was updated in the 3.5 updater booklet so it matches the online version SRD.

    HD 1-7 5/epic, HD 8-15 10/epic, HD 16+ 15/epic. See page 22 of the booklet.

    I'm sorry you made that huge chart. Damage Reduction is far different in 3.5 than it is in 3.0

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    Last edited by Debihuman; 2014-02-27 at 05:19 PM.
    P.E.A.C.H. Please Evaluate And Critique Honestly. Being nicer and kinder doesn't hurt either. Note I generally only critique 3.5 and Pathfinder material.
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    Default Re: Pseudonatural Template and Undead

    Quote Originally Posted by Xuldarinar View Post
    Yes there is. I want to agree, but...

    Augmented Subtype: A creature receives this subtype when-ever something happens to change its original type. Some creatures are born with this subtype; others acquire it when they take on an acquired template. The augmented subtype is always paired with the creature's original type. For example, a wizard's raven familiar is a magical beast (augmented animal). A creature with the augmented subtype usually has the traits of it's current type, but the features of its original type.
    Emphasis Mine.

    And you know, I was wrong on there being no precedent to model this whole argument on and it comes from the same book as this template.

    Prior to errata, the Atropal was represented as having the creature type line of "Large Undead, Outsider (Evil)". When the Epic Level Handbook errata was released to update it to 3.5, its type was changed to "Large Undead (Evil, Extraplanar, Lawful)". This can either be seen as a correction or as the Undead type taking precedence over the Outsider type.

    There's still zero justification anywhere in RAW that -+10 = 10, instead of -.

    Edit:

    This thread is also in the wrong subforum, by the by. Since it's just the application of an existing template on existing creatures, it belongs in the d20 subforum.
    Last edited by Tanuki Tales; 2014-02-27 at 06:25 PM.

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    Default Re: Pseudonatural Template and Undead

    Quote Originally Posted by Debihuman View Post
    Yes the Epic stuff was updated in the 3.5 updater booklet so it matches the online version SRD.

    HD 1-7 5/epic, HD 8-15 10/epic, HD 16+ 15/epic. See page 22 of the booklet.

    I'm sorry you made that huge chart. Damage Reduction is far different in 3.5 than it is in 3.0

    Debby
    Well, then I accept that I was wrong.

    Its fine, it was simple enough to do.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanuki Tales View Post
    Emphasis Mine.

    And you know, I was wrong on there being no precedent to model this whole argument on and it comes from the same book as this template.

    Prior to errata, the Atropal was represented as having the creature type line of "Large Undead, Outsider (Evil)". When the Epic Level Handbook errata was released to update it to 3.5, its type was changed to "Large Undead (Evil, Extraplanar, Lawful)". This can either be seen as a correction or as the Undead type taking precedence over the Outsider type.

    There's still zero justification anywhere in RAW that -+10 = 10, instead of -.

    Edit:

    This thread is also in the wrong subforum, by the by. Since it's just the application of an existing template on existing creatures, it belongs in the d20 subforum.
    Well, if we look to the Libris Mortus, undead appears to stand higher than outsider, which is supported further by Vecna being undead and not an outsider. However, I will note (if I recall correctly) that Orcus, who unless i am mistaken by the lore associated with him should then be undead, is an outsider.

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    Default Re: Pseudonatural Template and Undead

    Quote Originally Posted by Xuldarinar View Post
    Well, if we look to the Libris Mortus, undead appears to stand higher than outsider, which is supported further by Vecna being undead and not an outsider. However, I will note (if I recall correctly) that Orcus, who unless i am mistaken by the lore associated with him should then be undead, is an outsider.
    Orcus is just an outsider who associates with undead. He's basically just a ridiculously powerful necromancer.

    Does the Book of Bad Latin actually say Undead > Outsider?

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    Default Re: Pseudonatural Template and Undead

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanuki Tales View Post
    Orcus is just an outsider who associates with undead. He's basically just a ridiculously powerful necromancer.

    Does the Book of Bad Latin actually say Undead > Outsider?
    Implied but not explicit.

    Atropal Scion: Undead
    Visage: Undead (Chaotic, Evil, Extraplanar)

    Of course we cannot forget the Elder Evil Atropus, who is also undead.

    Though, a curiosity is the lichfiend: "The lichfiend is an evil outsider that achieves lichdom." It isn't entirely clear if the lichfiend itself is an evil outsider, or if they simply formerly were an evil outsider (nor do they exactly define if it is evil alignment or (Evil)).



    Curiously the fluff of the nightshades makes me think they should be Outsider (Evil), given they are "composed of equal parts darkness and absolute evil".
    Last edited by Xuldarinar; 2014-02-27 at 09:42 PM.

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    Default Re: Pseudonatural Template and Undead

    If WotC had updated Deities and Demigods to 3.5, a lot might have been cleared up. Unfortunately, it's still 3.0 so your guess is as good as mine as to how to proceed with which Type is correct. The errata, update and FAQ aren't much help.



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    Last edited by Debihuman; 2014-02-27 at 10:50 PM.
    P.E.A.C.H. Please Evaluate And Critique Honestly. Being nicer and kinder doesn't hurt either. Note I generally only critique 3.5 and Pathfinder material.
    Please, please, please when using non-core material, cite to the books. There are too many books to wade through to find the one with the feat, special ability or spell you use.
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    Default Re: Pseudonatural Template and Undead

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanuki Tales View Post
    There's still zero justification anywhere in RAW that -+10 = 10, instead of -."
    The same justification that no con score gives you a +0 bonus to Fortitude saves. It isn't a zero, but it acts like one for this purpose.

    This thread is also in the wrong subforum, by the by. Since it's just the application of an existing template on existing creatures, it belongs in the d20 subforum.
    I think we're okay here especially since we're testing how the template works with Undead.

    Debby
    P.E.A.C.H. Please Evaluate And Critique Honestly. Being nicer and kinder doesn't hurt either. Note I generally only critique 3.5 and Pathfinder material.
    Please, please, please when using non-core material, cite to the books. There are too many books to wade through to find the one with the feat, special ability or spell you use.
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    Default Re: Pseudonatural Template and Undead

    Quote Originally Posted by Debihuman View Post
    The same justification that no con score gives you a +0 bonus to Fortitude saves. It isn't a zero, but it acts like one for this purpose.
    Wouldn't a Con score of 0 actually give you a -5 penalty to Fortitude saves? Being that the bonus/penalty equation is (Score-10)/2

    If anything, the fact a Nonability Con score provides a +0 bonus to Fortitude saves would suggest that a Nonability is effectively being treated as a 10 or 11.

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    Default Re: Pseudonatural Template and Undead

    Quote Originally Posted by Kapskaen View Post
    Wouldn't a Con score of 0 actually give you a -5 penalty to Fortitude saves? Being that the bonus/penalty equation is (Score-10)/2

    If anything, the fact a Nonability Con score provides a +0 bonus to Fortitude saves would suggest that a Nonability is effectively being treated as a 10 or 11.
    Doh! I treated it as a 0 for adding +10, but perhaps treating it like a 10 might be better.

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    Last edited by Debihuman; 2014-02-27 at 11:44 PM.
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    Default Re: Pseudonatural Template and Undead

    So now -=10, so -+10= 20? Seriously, you're going to put forth that line of reasoning?

    They did release an errata for Deities and Demigods and it kept Vecna's type as Undead.

    @Xul: The variant undead beginning paragraphs heavily imply, if outright say that you apply the normal template and then apply the variant on top of it. So a Lichfiend, one would presume, would be an Undead.

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    Default Re: Pseudonatural Template and Undead

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanuki Tales View Post
    So now -=10, so -+10= 20? Seriously, you're going to put forth that line of reasoning?

    They did release an errata for Deities and Demigods and it kept Vecna's type as Undead.
    I was thinking the base creature should have +0 modifiers and that would mean it would start at 10. It's one way to look at it, not necessarily the best way I'll agree. Then again considering the Template adds CR it's not actually too overpowering.

    I know the 3.5 updater didn't change his type, but that's not the same as actual errata. Deities and Demigods is one book that I really wish had been fully updated to 3.5, especially if it had incorporated material from the Epic Level Handbook. Oh well, if wishes were horses....

    Debby
    Last edited by Debihuman; 2014-02-28 at 12:28 PM.
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    Default Re: Pseudonatural Template and Undead

    Quote Originally Posted by The Dragon View Post
    The reason is that he's reading the change of type as voiding the traits of the old type in favor of the traits of a new type.

    Thus you lose undead traits. This makes you lose the "no con score" trait of undead. This makes you have a con score.

    The above, I can agree with. He's not adding +10 to -, he's adding 10 to the arbitary number of con that the now outsider ghoul must have, because it's not undead anymore.

    Sadly, no one has a freaking clue as to what this arbitary con score is, but debi infers that it's 0.

    Which, frankly, I think is stupid, because remember what happens when something has 0 con?

    That's right, if you make an undead change type and get a con score without getting a bonus, under debi's rules it'd die.


    I myself, like to use the method of awaken and incarnate construct - the new stat is determined by 4d6b3 or 3d6, respectively.

    Actually I infer it is the equivalent of 0 as the starting point since the Template says
    Abilities
    Increase from the base creature as follows: Str +22, Con +10, Dex +10, Wisdom +10, Intelligence at least 3.
    What would you suggest?

    Debby
    P.E.A.C.H. Please Evaluate And Critique Honestly. Being nicer and kinder doesn't hurt either. Note I generally only critique 3.5 and Pathfinder material.
    Please, please, please when using non-core material, cite to the books. There are too many books to wade through to find the one with the feat, special ability or spell you use.
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    Default Re: Pseudonatural Template and Undead

    One of the many wonderful jobs of a DM, making their own rulings where there are gaps and ambiguities in the rules.

    Do I wish there was just one answer? Yes, but there isn't exactly. You can make arguments for one way or the other.

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