Goblins XIV: Clerical Omission.

[Bird]

If wounded Forguth merges with one of Kilk's species would he count as dead and a new entity because he merged or am i pushing?

If this Klik does what Klik did with Dies Horribly & Junior, that sounds like a push. The only way I'd say that Forgath would count as dead would be if he actually dies, or if the klik replaces his brain, as opposed to any other body part.

When Dies first received Junior, Dies was still Dies in every meaningful way; he just had a symbiotic (or arguably parasitic) relationship with another organism. Over time, the symbiont/parasite became more powerful and capable of hijacking Dies' whole body, but Dies never went away. He just had trouble controlling Junior.

(And of course, what Klik did for Dies was extraordinary, but the normal Klik reproductive cycle also preserves the host as an individual.)

[Anteros]

I forgot how clumsy the writing for that page was.

[Neoriceisgood]

I forgot how clumsy the writing for that page was.

Yeah, I Don't think I like a single part about that page.

[Killer Angel]

Now the page is the colored version...

[CowardlyPaladin]

Yeah, I Don't think I like a single part about that page.

Come on, Kore's face is pretty awesome.


On that subject, now that the page in in color, I can see that he seems to have lost his helmet (unless he can bend it back into shape) and at least on of his axes is damaged, and it looks like the armor around his left shoulder area has been busted. Since he can't do Ear's trick, that means at the very least GAP + Minmax will be up against a weakened Kore in terms of equipment. Though one he rests and gets his hit points back I don't know how much that will help them, he is at least level 15.

[Agi Hammerthief]

Come on, Kore's face is pretty awesome.

methinks he was talking about the Klick Species Explanation Page, not the current one

[Traab]

All I have to say is, Kore clearly hasnt faced many adventurers on his quest to purge the world of evil or else he wouldnt have lasted long. Forgath is level FOUR and he did significant damage to Kore. Yes he had some advantages to work with, but in general, he still put a hurt on Kore. Had they not had the confrontation here and now, even if only on the other side of this dungeon with an extra level or two added on, I bet Kore would have been cut to pieces between Minmax and Forgath being level 5-6, and thats not even counting what the gobs might do by then. Keep Forgath and maybe Ears as the meat shields since they have the best armor to close the gap and take the crossbows out of play, then have complains and minmax flank and stab while Thaco does his monk thing and they would overwhelm him imo. Do paladins even have anything they could use to deal with multiple attackers in close range? I know in WoW they have consecrate which is a point blank aoe effect. Ears could fall back and play support since his axe cant hurt Kore, and heal the others as much as he can as they get hurt. Fumbles cant do squat, poor guy is still only 2/11ths of every class. Plus aside from his epic mustache, he has no gear.

[Lizard Lord]

All I have to say is, Kore clearly hasnt faced many adventurers on his quest to purge the world of evil or else he wouldnt have lasted long. Forgath is level FOUR and he did significant damage to Kore. Yes he had some advantages to work with, but in general, he still put a hurt on Kore. Had they not had the confrontation here and now, even if only on the other side of this dungeon with an extra level or two added on, I bet Kore would have been cut to pieces between Minmax and Forgath being level 5-6, and thats not even counting what the gobs might do by then. Keep Forgath and maybe Ears as the meat shields since they have the best armor to close the gap and take the crossbows out of play, then have complains and minmax flank and stab while Thaco does his monk thing and they would overwhelm him imo. Do paladins even have anything they could use to deal with multiple attackers in close range? I know in WoW they have consecrate which is a point blank aoe effect. Ears could fall back and play support since his axe cant hurt Kore, and heal the others as much as he can as they get hurt. Fumbles cant do squat, poor guy is still only 2/11ths of every class. Plus aside from his epic mustache, he has no gear.

"Significant Damage" is relative. We have seen a goblin get stabbed through the throat and live. No one knows how much more damage Kore can actually take just yet.

[Anteros]

Honestly, he didn't really do much damage at all. He managed to knock him down for a few seconds, take his helmet off, and stab him in the hand...and he got absolutely mangled in return.

[Traab]

Honestly, he didn't really do much damage at all. He managed to knock him down for a few seconds, take his helmet off, and stab him in the hand...and he got absolutely mangled in return.

Ruined one of his weapons, temporarily crippled one hand, wounded him at least somewhat with that final rage fest stone fist to the helmet series of blows. And all that was forgath fighting by himself (with probably the most heavily foreshadowed weapon ever created) I believe he even removed his shield from play, though im not certain how the whole flipping thing went down. And again, this is solo at level 4. We estimate Kore is at least 15 right? If this was a straight fight with no prep between a 15 paladin and a 4 cleric in D&D, just how fast would that cleric be obliterated? I cant say for sure, but I would have to imagine its pretty damn fast.

That was basically my point. If a single level 4 cleric can do that well in a fight against a guy that has apparently "slaughtered armies" or whatever, then I am forced to believe he has only fought armies of npcs, not adventurers. Because a decent party, even at low to mid levels would likely hand him his arse in a straight up fight.

[Anteros]

Ruined one of his weapons, temporarily crippled one hand, wounded him at least somewhat with that final rage fest stone fist to the helmet series of blows. And all that was forgath fighting by himself (with probably the most heavily foreshadowed weapon ever created) I believe he even removed his shield from play, though im not certain how the whole flipping thing went down. And again, this is solo at level 4. We estimate Kore is at least 15 right? If this was a straight fight with no prep between a 15 paladin and a 4 cleric in D&D, just how fast would that cleric be obliterated? I cant say for sure, but I would have to imagine its pretty damn fast.

That was basically my point. If a single level 4 cleric can do that well in a fight against a guy that has apparently "slaughtered armies" or whatever, then I am forced to believe he has only fought armies of npcs, not adventurers. Because a decent party, even at low to mid levels would likely hand him his arse in a straight up fight.

Well, he's a paladin. They mostly operate by tanking damage and healing it. Winning through attrition. Without knowing Kore's actual level and what kind of magical resources he has left, it's hard to estimate how much damage Forgath really inflicted. I'm willing to bet it wasn't much though.

Forgath is also working with gear that is significantly more powerful than what someone his level should have, and it's all tailored to let him fight an opponent with exactly Kore's skill set. Remember that Kore is primarily a ranged attacker, and Forgath also has his overpowered ring of protection against missiles.

[Bird]

That was basically my point. If a single level 4 cleric can do that well in a fight against a guy that has apparently "slaughtered armies" or whatever, then I am forced to believe he has only fought armies of npcs, not adventurers. Because a decent party, even at low to mid levels would likely hand him his arse in a straight up fight.

I wouldn't draw the same conclusion. In my view, Forgath's strong performance doesn't reflect poorly on Kore--it's just a function of how in Goblins, protagonists punch way out of their weight class. Thac0 vs Goblinslayer, Ears vs Saral Caine, FMK vs PsiMax, GAP vs several jillion brassmoon guards, etc. If you're a protagonist, then you've got a magic item or two that vaporize the wealth by level guidelines, and you're likely tossing a run of nat 20s when it gets ugly. Just how the story works.

[Traab]

I wouldn't draw the same conclusion. In my view, Forgath's strong performance doesn't reflect poorly on Kore--it's just a function of how in Goblins, protagonists punch way out of their weight class. Thac0 vs Goblinslayer, Ears vs Saral Caine, FMK vs PsiMax, GAP vs several jillion brassmoon guards, etc. If you're a protagonist, then you've got a magic item or two that vaporize the wealth by level guidelines, and you're likely tossing a run of nat 20s when it gets ugly. Just how the story works.

/wobbles hand back and forth. Eeeh, maybe, But a lot of those fights had extenuating circumstances. The goblinslayer fight, thaco got his ass beat like a rented drum, it was a single lucky crit that got him the win. He basically got a lucky crit effect. Saral caine, his weapon was useless against ears, so he had to fight the guy with his bare hands and nearly killed ears unarmed. Psimax stomped through the battle like freaking godzilla till they got a deus ex machina with the thumbs thing. And the GAP were fighting a bunch of low level mook guards. Thaco even pointed that out afterwards, they were even lower "level" than the GAP was, the only danger was the sheer numbers of them.

Now I will admit that Forgath had the racist axe (I still think thats a hilarious name I want to use in a game at some point) plus some good loot of his own, but kore has some pretty harsh gear of his own, like 98% of his body is covered in solid heavy metal, he has that massive shield, his quadruple crossbow thing, and he apparently has dual wielded axes of his own. Plus he is like 4x higher level than forgath at least going by the skills he has been seen using.

[Lizard Lord]

/wobbles hand back and forth. Eeeh, maybe, But a lot of those fights had extenuating circumstances. The goblinslayer fight, thaco got his ass beat like a rented drum, it was a single lucky crit that got him the win. He basically got a lucky crit effect. Saral caine, his weapon was useless against ears, so he had to fight the guy with his bare hands and nearly killed ears unarmed. Psimax stomped through the battle like freaking godzilla till they got a deus ex machina with the thumbs thing. And the GAP were fighting a bunch of low level mook guards. Thaco even pointed that out afterwards, they were even lower "level" than the GAP was, the only danger was the sheer numbers of them.

Now I will admit that Forgath had the racist axe (I still think thats a hilarious name I want to use in a game at some point) plus some good loot of his own, but kore has some pretty harsh gear of his own, like 98% of his body is covered in solid heavy metal, he has that massive shield, his quadruple crossbow thing, and he apparently has dual wielded axes of his own. Plus he is like 4x higher level than forgath at least going by the skills he has been seen using.

And all of Kore's weapons are good for non-magic items (admittedly we don't know that if they are magical or not, but for arguments sake, lets say not). While Forgath has one or two magic rings (I believe he has at least a ring of strength, though I can't remember), the racist ax, and the mammer which he used in combination with the ax. Magic items are usually in a class above mundane ones and Forgath was packing some powerful magic items.

And again we don't know how much damage Forgath actually did. Especially if the under-armor gave damage reduction or something.

Then there is also the fact that it would have been boring if Forgath went down in round one. Writers need to take artistic liberties sometimes, especially when your story is based on game rules that stats that one character is far too powerful for other characters to stand a chance.


Granted, not being able to stand a chance against him is what Kore is all about, but still....

[Bird]

I agree with Lizard Lord's points RE: Forgath's equipment being a huge deal. I'd call that a special circumstance comparable with some of the other special circumstances in the combats we're comparing it to. Further--I'd point out that Kore dealt with what Forgath did quite easily for most of the combat, and that he still beat Forgath handily.

Going by probability, should Kore have put down Forgath faster? Yeah, you're right, he should have. But as Lizard Lord said, you've got to make the combat interesting. Thac0 got one really great crit against Goblinslayer and won; Forgath got two or three rounds of great rolls against Kore and lost. If you want to claim that Forgath still had the most impressive showing, I wouldn't argue the point, but I'd maintain that the combat overall is precedented given all the other miraculous survivals we've seen.

[CowardlyPaladin]

Well the thing we are looking at here is that a level 15 Dwarven Paladin seems to have no magical items whatsoever while a level 4 Dwarf Cleric has
a Ring of +2 Strength
+ 4 vs. missils
A racist +7 axe (I mean that is a huge bonus)
used in combination with his hammer mace which was +5 i believe, i don't remember, which means that in addition to his BAB Forgoth could have had a +12 bonus to attack, which is pretty absurd. And if he hit, an extra +2 to strength to go with it.

Kore in contrast has only those magical speak with dead pellets, he just seems to have normal plate armor and his odd shield, but his entire manner of fighting seems to be "I suck up damage and slowly methodically kill people." In the fight in the tavern he shot a great deal and simply kept them from running away and let them wear themselves out attacking him until he gets a hit, where they die, remember he reduced Thaco to -8 in a single hit. In this fight Kore hit him 5 times to reduce him to -2 hit point. In contrast, Forgoth hit Kore only twice and he doesn't seem effected in the least (in fact one of those hits, the one to his face might not have hurt Kore at all just his helmet). So in D&D terms, that does make sense since Kore is only using non magical weapons, the question is...your level 15 why aren't you using magical weapons?

Now why Forogth's Hold Person actually worked on Kore, that I can't answer for you.

[Bird]

Now why Forogth's Hold Person actually worked on Kore, that I can't answer for you.

A mystery in the same way that "how did Kore cast remove paralysis after Forgath's Hold Person" is a mystery. ;) (He would have needed to prepare it with both still spell and silent spell--not absurd, even though it would be odd for a paladin to take those feats. But he clearly says "remove paralysis," so how could it be silent...? Has to be chocked up to artistic license, I think.)

Aside: if you were Kore, what sort of paladin mount would you have?

[CowardlyPaladin]

A mystery in the same way that "how did Kore cast remove paralysis after Forgath's Hold Person" is a mystery. ;) (He would have needed to prepare it with both still spell and silent spell--not absurd, even though it would be odd for a paladin to take those feats. But he clearly says "remove paralysis," so how could it be silent...? Has to be chocked up to artistic license, I think.)

Aside: if you were Kore, what sort of paladin mount would you have?

Well i think spell casting just works differently in Goblins, but the fact Kore didn't just make his save? Really?

As to the mount...a giant horse made of the same...soul stuff that his face is made out of would be awesome.

[BannedInSchool]

Giant Armadillo, duh. (With an eye-patch.)

[dramatic flare]

I'd been wondering why Kore's Remove Paralysis was chains of tortured looking faces...
http://www.goblinscomic.org/02042014/

[Kaptin Keen]

I'd been wondering why Kore's Remove Paralysis was chains of tortured looking faces...
http://www.goblinscomic.org/02042014/

... because he's a monster. He draws his powers from the souls he's stolen.

[Winterwind]

I'd been wondering why Kore's Remove Paralysis was chains of tortured looking faces...
http://www.goblinscomic.org/02042014/

Because that is his Individual Magic Effect, I'd presume. It happens every time he does something vaguely magical and unusual; it happened when he used Lay On Hands, too, in spite of that not even being a magic spell. Just like a yellow circle appears around Big Ears when he does that, or like Complains' and Minmax' eyes burn purple when they rage.

[Traab]

Because that is his Individual Magic Effect, I'd presume. It happens every time he does something vaguely magical and unusual; it happened when he used Lay On Hands, too, in spite of that not even being a magic spell. Just like a yellow circle appears around Big Ears when he does that, or like Complains' and Minmax' eyes burn purple when they rage.

I get the feeling the IME gets bigger and more impressive as you level up and grow more powerful. In fact, didnt Thunt do something along those lines once? Like he showed how some random made up characters ime grew and evolved? Heck, didnt Complains IME turn into a giant purple tail when he flipped the heck out on Kore?

[John Cribati]

I get the feeling the IME gets bigger and more impressive as you level up and grow more powerful. In fact, didnt Thunt do something along those lines once? Like he showed how some random made up characters ime grew and evolved? Heck, didnt Complains IME turn into a giant purple tail when he flipped the heck out on Kore?

Yes to all of that. There is (maybe was) apparently a necromancer (druid?) Who had a tree-based I.M.E. Chief's eventually became something like ceremonial armor, Big Ears' is actually now a circular brick wall, And Complains' has a tail to reflect his now-demonic nature. Plus Forgath has that "H" thing going on.

[BannedInSchool]

Yes, IMEs get more complex with level. Chief ended with a crown, Complains got the tail, and Kore has two big wings made of heads on chains.

[CowardlyPaladin]

So what are GAP + Minmax's chances with Kore's broken weapons and armor.

[Traab]

So what are GAP + Minmax's chances with Kore's broken weapons and armor.

Better, but probably still not that great. Big ears flat out cant hurt him without shenanigans, his axe is immaterial against kore. Thaco doesnt have any magic gear to help, his swords just bounce off Kore. Complains stabbed kore like a dozen times while enraged and couldnt break through his armor. Senor vorpal kickasso is still 2/11ths of every class in the game. I think he can declare his ability to dodge an attack once a round. Other than that and his manly mustache of doom, he has nothing to offer, and is barely functional from all the mental damage he has taken. Minmax has Oblivious, a sword that can and has bisected his enemies in combat, and some solid armor. He is the best shot at hurting Kore, but im not sure how effective he would be.

All that being said, they have an entire dungeon to traverse. This will net them all at least another level, and maybe even some decent gear. If they all boost up a level or two and get some sort of decent gear, they might be able to do some damage against Kore in an all out fight. Also, keep in mind that its doubtful Kore will just go straight after them. He will likely take the time to repair his gear or replace it somehow first.

[CowardlyPaladin]

Better, but probably still not that great. Big ears flat out cant hurt him without shenanigans, his axe is immaterial against kore. Thaco doesnt have any magic gear to help, his swords just bounce off Kore. Complains stabbed kore like a dozen times while enraged and couldnt break through his armor. Senor vorpal kickasso is still 2/11ths of every class in the game. I think he can declare his ability to dodge an attack once a round. Other than that and his manly mustache of doom, he has nothing to offer, and is barely functional from all the mental damage he has taken. Minmax has Oblivious, a sword that can and has bisected his enemies in combat, and some solid armor. He is the best shot at hurting Kore, but im not sure how effective he would be.

All that being said, they have an entire dungeon to traverse. This will net them all at least another level, and maybe even some decent gear. If they all boost up a level or two and get some sort of decent gear, they might be able to do some damage against Kore in an all out fight. Also, keep in mind that its doubtful Kore will just go straight after them. He will likely take the time to repair his gear or replace it somehow first.

Yeah and Kore is unlikely to gain a level in the dungeon due to his level. And he does have a broken axe, no helmet and armor so at least his attack is going to be weaker. Though can he repeair his stuff? The axe and helmet look pretty far gone

[Traab]

Yeah and Kore is unlikely to gain a level in the dungeon due to his level. And he does have a broken axe, no helmet and armor so at least his attack is going to be weaker. Though can he repeair his stuff? The axe and helmet look pretty far gone

Even if he cant repair it, its doubtful someone thats been roaming the world killing everything in it for so long as to become a legend/nightmare hasnt gathered backup gear. Heck, for all we know, this was just his generic slaughter gear, and now he will break out his good stuff because the evil he is fighting now has shown impressive ability to not die when he wants them to. I can see it now, the GAP and Minmax reach the end of the dungeon, they are feeling on top of the world. They have leveled up, gotten their new spells and skills, looted some nice items, and feel like its vengeance time. Kore shows up and they get ready to fight when BOOM! All his gear starts glowing showing he has a stupid amount of powerfully magical items all over him and he is like 10x as dangerous as he was before. The next three panels are nothing but giant text balloons full of inventive cursing.

[CowardlyPaladin]

Even if he cant repair it, its doubtful someone thats been roaming the world killing everything in it for so long as to become a legend/nightmare hasnt gathered backup gear. Heck, for all we know, this was just his generic slaughter gear, and now he will break out his good stuff because the evil he is fighting now has shown impressive ability to not die when he wants them to. I can see it now, the GAP and Minmax reach the end of the dungeon, they are feeling on top of the world. They have leveled up, gotten their new spells and skills, looted some nice items, and feel like its vengeance time. Kore shows up and they get ready to fight when BOOM! All his gear starts glowing showing he has a stupid amount of powerfully magical items all over him and he is like 10x as dangerous as he was before. The next three panels are nothing but giant text balloons full of inventive cursing.

This....is sadly way to plausible, i could totally see it. After all, Kore's entire battle plan seems to be "if it isn't broke don't fix it" and it just doing the same thing over and over again until he faces resistance and wipes out something scarier. LIke the fight in the tavern, he made it look like he was only ranged, then he pulled out the shield, then he pulled out the axes. In fact considering this guy doesn't care about CR, it would make sense he wouldn't use his serious weapons against weak creatures like Goblins because that would be a waste.

I almost responded to you being like "But wait he doesn't have a backpack where does he store all of that stuff" but at his level, he most likely has a bag of holding. This guy is scary.

On another note, its interesting to me about the power level of the Goblins world. While there are plenty of magic items lying around, most of these seem to be left overs from major battles between super divine entities, and the actual people living here are very low level. Goblinslayer was legendary and was most likely between level 6-8, maybe level lower if his half golem traits gives him level adjustment (fun fact, I was reading the MMII and apperantly half golems are extremely prone to going insane). Thaco was a legend and was basically just a goblin with a high HD. So it would make sense that a level 15 paladin would be seen as this nigh unstoppable badass because if you see level 6 as legendary, level 15 must be horrifying.