EMPIRE! Community World-Building Game III: Prepare Your Inbox! (Messages Are Coming)

[Logic]

It looks like Yasira is definitely a part of the Radujic faith, and got just about everything positive from her father, except his luck.

[SamBurke]

Umm. Hi. I expect I'm not exactly the most popular person here right now.

Why would you be unpopular? You're making the best move for your people.

No!

I didn't say this before, but you played the game beautifully. Initially, I thought I smelled a rat (pun totally intended) but yet you managed to turn yourself around in my eyes. And the timing of all this could not be more perfect. 8 rounds of relative peace, and now WW1 is breaking out. I love it.

But totally shame on you for betraying us.

Yeah, seconding the pro points.

Correct, but Sympol went into this believing that you were marching with him, and even if he does not march now that he doesn't have the support, the cards have been shown. I just don't want to have similar patterns each war, so I'm looking for some ways we could make the system better. Anyone have any ideas to suggest?

To be honest, I *love* how this is going down. It's extremely fun to be in the middle of constant edits and changes, cause it feels like I'm a real king, making split-second changes to avoid political/national disaster. So my vote is: no change!

I was trying to talk my way out of it with Guilder but most of why that didn't happen last round at all was because I wasn't passed the DoW by C'nor and SamBurke was offline for a long time.

Sorry, folks. My weekends are brutally non-internet-y. I'll be offline on most Sundays.

In a way, we already have intrigue. There's nothing to stop us communicating in private, and we do all get a secret action each round and that can be absolutely anything, and I can think of nothing more intriguing than not knowing what people are doing.

That's right. We watch everything.




Well, you do seem a trustworthy sort, so you do seem the logical choice for such a role. Note, there is no pun, I do literally mean Logic is the most logical choice given the current situation of political entanglements. Plus, you have a chessmaster avatar, which I feel is quite appropriate for the role.

I agree: Logic for Spymaster is a good choice. Though I do second the intrigue of secret actions... they're intense.

[lt_murgen]

Here are my thoughts:

Each round is 5 years. That kind of negates the idea of a surprise attack. Yes, you can invade without warning, but within a few months pretty much everyone in that country will know. Within a year or two, the rest of the continent will know.

I know that the constant juggling of units, negotiations, PMs and changes in official actions is a pain. But again, that kind of thing is going to happen in the 5 years we are covering?

I actually think it is a good system. Yes, people are going to write their actions on Tuesday and change them on Thursday. And someone else might miss something that changed. But isn't that really what it would be like? No country has a perfect espionage system. Scouts miss a portion of a moving army. Rulers provide mis-direction and misleading official orders. OVer 5 years, especially in warfare, things are going to change- both politically and militarily.

Now, if I could suggest a simplification:

Everyone maintains a single In Character Post. All text for actions should be colored black.
If there is a change to your actions, you strike out the original text and add new text in a different color. You can repeat as often as you like, but you have to strike out and use new text for each change. This wouldn't apply to fluff, of course, just the actions.
THis would allow everyone to scan through quickly and see what has changed. It would also allow everyone to see who is making multiple changes again and again.

[zabbarot]

maintains a single In Character Post. All text for actions should be colored black.
If there is a change to your actions, you strike out the original text and add new text in a different color. You can repeat as often as you like, but you have to strike out and use new text for each change. This wouldn't apply to fluff, of course, just the actions.
THis would allow everyone to scan through quickly and see what has changed. It would also allow everyone to see who is making multiple changes again and again.

I agree on all points, but I especially like this part.

[SamBurke]

I agree on all points, but I especially like this part.

I'd vote for the change too. It'd be complex, but it'd be fun. I would suggest using a slash between each change, like so: [Curiosity]Discover that things fall when dropped / [Faith] Pray that things will fall when dropped / [Military] Force all things that drop to fall. Full invasion of the Things' homeland otherwise.

[ImperatorV]

Religion query - when switching rulers, does the new ruler automatically have the same faith as the predecessor?

Basically, I'm asking if changing rulers and changing religions can be combined.

[Elemental]

It looks like Yasira is definitely a part of the Radujic faith, and got just about everything positive from her father, except his luck.

With those rolls, I might just kidnap her to rule my own nation...

Everyone maintains a single In Character Post. All text for actions should be colored black.
If there is a change to your actions, you strike out the original text and add new text in a different color. You can repeat as often as you like, but you have to strike out and use new text for each change. This wouldn't apply to fluff, of course, just the actions.
THis would allow everyone to scan through quickly and see what has changed. It would also allow everyone to see who is making multiple changes again and again.

I like this idea. I like this idea a lot. It seems eminently practical. But I'm not we need to go to the length of different colours. Not all of them are easy to read after all.

[TheWombatOfDoom]

Here are my thoughts:

Each round is 5 years. That kind of negates the idea of a surprise attack. Yes, you can invade without warning, but within a few months pretty much everyone in that country will know. Within a year or two, the rest of the continent will know.

I know that the constant juggling of units, negotiations, PMs and changes in official actions is a pain. But again, that kind of thing is going to happen in the 5 years we are covering?

I actually think it is a good system. Yes, people are going to write their actions on Tuesday and change them on Thursday. And someone else might miss something that changed. But isn't that really what it would be like? No country has a perfect espionage system. Scouts miss a portion of a moving army. Rulers provide mis-direction and misleading official orders. OVer 5 years, especially in warfare, things are going to change- both politically and militarily.

Now, if I could suggest a simplification:

Everyone maintains a single In Character Post. All text for actions should be colored black.
If there is a change to your actions, you strike out the original text and add new text in a different color. You can repeat as often as you like, but you have to strike out and use new text for each change. This wouldn't apply to fluff, of course, just the actions.
THis would allow everyone to scan through quickly and see what has changed. It would also allow everyone to see who is making multiple changes again and again.

Problem is, this game is also designed so that people can make actions once, and then leave until next week. Or some people like to respond with fluff. Changing an action makes two things happen:

1, say I post something in response to something else, say, I go into an alliance with Bob, and Bob's like - let's attack! I'm like, alright! Put up the action, and leave for next round. During the round, Bob gets convinced to pull out, change things, and not attack. However, I posted that I was invading with Bob, and so now I'm invading alone. Next round, I get slaughtered.

2, and this happened in my case Twice this round. I see all that has transpired, and decide to write out fluff in response to a particular action, and then that action changes hats completely, and I'm left with something I can't post because it is no longer relevant.

I think part of the issue is that all time is wibbly wobbly in this game. There's no order of play, turns, or chronology save "this happens within this time period". I'm not sure if there's a rectifiable way of dealing with this, but it stands to be pointed out. It mostly works fine, but in a combat system like the one we've got, it certainly makes things...difficult at times.

[SamBurke]

With those rolls, I might just kidnap her to rule my own nation...

I know, right. 4's on everything but luck. Which ended up with a 3.

[TheWombatOfDoom]

Religion query - when switching rulers, does the new ruler automatically have the same faith as the predecessor?

Basically, I'm asking if changing rulers and changing religions can be combined.

Changing rulers does not require an action.

[Morph Bark]

Everyone maintains a single In Character Post. All text for actions should be colored black.
If there is a change to your actions, you strike out the original text and add new text in a different color. You can repeat as often as you like, but you have to strike out and use new text for each change. This wouldn't apply to fluff, of course, just the actions.
THis would allow everyone to scan through quickly and see what has changed. It would also allow everyone to see who is making multiple changes again and again.

I'd vote for the change too. It'd be complex, but it'd be fun. I would suggest using a slash between each change, like so: [Curiosity]Discover that things fall when dropped / [Faith] Pray that things will fall when dropped / [Military] Force all things that drop to fall. Full invasion of the Things' homeland otherwise.

Both decent suggestions, indeed.

I think it might be a good thing if someone would collect things like this as a kind of "posting etiquette" or "player's etiquette". Things that aren't really rules for the mechanics, but provide guidelines for the players that help run things more smoothly and in a way that will ensure the fun for everyone is maximized as much as it can be.

Religion query - when switching rulers, does the new ruler automatically have the same faith as the predecessor?

Basically, I'm asking if changing rulers and changing religions can be combined.

Yes. A new ruler can be of a different religion than the previous ruler if stated so. Otherwise it defaults to them being the same religion as their parent (if they were an heir) or the majority religion (if unrelated to the previous ruler).

Problem is, this game is also designed so that people can make actions once, and then leave until next week. Or some people like to respond with fluff. Changing an action makes two things happen:

1, say I post something in response to something else, say, I go into an alliance with Bob, and Bob's like - let's attack! I'm like, alright! Put up the action, and leave for next round. During the round, Bob gets convinced to pull out, change things, and not attack. However, I posted that I was invading with Bob, and so now I'm invading alone. Next round, I get slaughtered.

2, and this happened in my case Twice this round. I see all that has transpired, and decide to write out fluff in response to a particular action, and then that action changes hats completely, and I'm left with something I can't post because it is no longer relevant.

I think part of the issue is that all time is wibbly wobbly in this game. There's no order of play, turns, or chronology save "this happens within this time period". I'm not sure if there's a rectifiable way of dealing with this, but it stands to be pointed out. It mostly works fine, but in a combat system like the one we've got, it certainly makes things...difficult at times.

The first point is rather unavoidable. War not withstanding, this could be applied to any agreement between two players.

I think that requiring DoWs to happen one turn before the war actually happens is a good idea, as nearly all intense and large-scale action-editing has been war-related. This will enable diplomatic solutions to start being discussed a week earlier, and to serve to get all the players on the same side thinking in the same direction. Everyone in favour?

I suggest this in addition to the above suggestions by Murgen/Sam, as those suggestions help in making it clear what someone has changed or added, but they don't do anything to relieve the fundamental problem with war changes themselves--largely because they require people keeping tabs on the IC thread and changes to posts made in there.

[Tychris1]

Are you sure about this? I'd give it some more thought, rather than up and leave suddenly. Especially since you said that if Sympolemou were to fall you were interested in running a pirate nation.

I don't care if Sympolemou falls, I don't care if it gets relocated, turned upside down, or if a giant warp rift tears itself open above The Heart of the North and a Giant Cruiser comes out to carpet bomb it all. My reasoning for leaving has nothing to do with mechanics or the like.

[Logic]

With those rolls, I might just kidnap her to rule my own nation...




I like this idea. I like this idea a lot. It seems eminently practical. But I'm not we need to go to the length of different colours. Not all of them are easy to read after all.

I also like the idea of strike through text for edits as well. But I do like writing my ruler's speech in other colors.

[Zap Dynamic]

Everyone maintains a single In Character Post. All text for actions should be colored black.
If there is a change to your actions, you strike out the original text and add new text in a different color. You can repeat as often as you like, but you have to strike out and use new text for each change. This wouldn't apply to fluff, of course, just the actions.
THis would allow everyone to scan through quickly and see what has changed. It would also allow everyone to see who is making multiple changes again and again.

I like it! I especially like the idea that everyone only has one IC post per round (sooooo much easier to keep track of things). Spoilers can help to avoid wall o' text, and that edit button gets lonely.

But I'm not we need to go to the length of different colours. Not all of them are easy to read after all.

Agreed. I think it would also be confusing since IC speech is already a different color.

[Curiosity]Discover that things fall when dropped / [Faith] Pray that things will fall when dropped / [Military] Force all things that drop to fall. Full invasion of the Things' homeland otherwise.

Great example that the strikethrough is eye-catching enough already. No need for a color change.

Problem is, this game is also designed so that people can make actions once, and then leave until next week. Or some people like to respond with fluff. Changing an action makes two things happen:

1, say I post something in response to something else, say, I go into an alliance with Bob, and Bob's like - let's attack! I'm like, alright! Put up the action, and leave for next round. During the round, Bob gets convinced to pull out, change things, and not attack. However, I posted that I was invading with Bob, and so now I'm invading alone. Next round, I get slaughtered.

Bob needs to be courteous and let you know he's not attacking anymore. Even if you can only post on the weekends, you could see that things have changed and have time to adjust accordingly. I'm going to bet this won't be a hassle for someone who's only engaged enough to post on the weekends anyway, but I've been wrong before.

2, and this happened in my case Twice this round. I see all that has transpired, and decide to write out fluff in response to a particular action, and then that action changes hats completely, and I'm left with something I can't post because it is no longer relevant.

Standing events are safe places to write fluff related to the actions of others. Anything else is prone to (and usually does) change. I think interpersonal communication is a more fundamental source of these woes than the game mechanics. We just gotta talk to each other!

[BladeofObliviom]

So, I just found out that I'm going to have my internet service cancelled indefinitely in about half a week because money's tight and I'm not bringing in enough right now. I'll still be on once in a while, but not enough to maintain any commitment to this game.

I'll try to get some actions up in my free time, but after this turn I'm going to hand my lands over to Burch. Marriage contract and all.

Not that it matters, since suddenly losing one of our conspirators and several allies deciding to opt out basically means that we're going to get torn apart in a few turns anyway simply by virtue of numbers.

[QuintonBeck]

I like the strike through idea, and the declaration a round before is an alright idea I suppose, but I don't really see why its necessary. I get that the editing and changes are annoying but echoing previous sentiments, that's how it'd be. I think the lesson here is, don't respond to actions with fluff until at least half a week in if big things are happening to change things.

Also, I think any wars or the sort ought to be declared within the first couple days of the round starting, but needing to do it the entire round before and being unable to do anything seems unnecessary. Maybe I'm just unclear on what the pros to that would be.

[HisHolyAngel]

Including me? It sounds right up my alley, but I feel my actions the centre of much OOC drama. This is my very first play by post game and I'm not sure that I work well with them or they work well with me.

This game really isn't representative of PbP at all.

[Tychris1]

This game really isn't representative of PbP at all.

I can pretty much second this.

[SamBurke]

I don't care if Sympolemou falls, I don't care if it gets relocated, turned upside down, or if a giant warp rift tears itself open above The Heart of the North and a Giant Cruiser comes out to carpet bomb it all. My reasoning for leaving has nothing to do with mechanics or the like.

Can we ask what they are?

I also like the idea of strike through text for edits as well. But I do like writing my ruler's speech in other colors.

Agreed.

So, I just found out that I'm going to have my internet service cancelled indefinitely in about a week because money's tight and I'm not bringing in enough right now. I'll still be on once in a while, but not enough to maintain any commitment to this game.

I'll try to get some actions up in my free time, but after this turn I'm going to hand my lands over to Burch. Marriage contract and all.

Not that it matters, since suddenly losing one of our conspirators and several allies deciding to opt out basically means that we're going to get torn apart in a few turns anyway simply by virtue of numbers.

Sorry, mate... I'm genuinely sad to see a fellow like yourself have to step out.

[Tychris1]

Can we ask what they are?

I can pm you, that's about it.

[SamBurke]

I can pm you, that's about it.

I'd like to talk, yeah.

[lt_murgen]

I think that requiring DoWs to happen one turn before the war actually happens is a good idea, as nearly all intense and large-scale action-editing has been war-related. This will enable diplomatic solutions to start being discussed a week earlier, and to serve to get all the players on the same side thinking in the same direction. Everyone in favour?

As a nation of drunk half-naked pirates with no military ambition, I have no IC reasons to deny such a Resulotion of Proper Conduct amongst noble nations. As a player, I am abivalent and will follow the majority.

I also like the idea of strike through text for edits as well. But I do like writing my ruler's speech in other colors.

THe reason I suggested a different color was because I am old and color is easier to see than strike-outs. It was a suggestion. Also, with fluff having the speech and declarations and stuff, they would be seperate. Like I said, just a suggestion.

[TheWombatOfDoom]

Another idea I had was a posting order, where each person technically has their own round, and Morph does a ruling as to the results at the end of the cycle as normal, before the round starts over.

In this, we'd have Player 1 go, and then Player 2 would go, and so on, until everyone had gone. No edits are allowed in this case, and actions would be able to be reacted to easily, because the following round you could react to what happened.

The biggest limitation to this is that it slows down the game significantly, as some people would not be able to post, or some players drop off the face of the game, and so on, so this major change might not work with the game as it is, but it does exhibit some nice resolutions...perhaps a mixture of the two?

[SamBurke]

Another idea I had was a posting order, where each person technically has their own round, and Morph does a ruling as to the results at the end of the cycle as normal, before the round starts over.

In this, we'd have Player 1 go, and then Player 2 would go, and so on, until everyone had gone. No edits are allowed in this case, and actions would be able to be reacted to easily, because the following round you could react to what happened.

The biggest limitation to this is that it slows down the game significantly, as some people would not be able to post, or some players drop off the face of the game, and so on, so this major change might not work with the game as it is, but it does exhibit some nice resolutions...perhaps a mixture of the two?

I think this'll slow things down *far* too much... again, I don't see a problem with the current system.

[Logic]

As a nation of drunk half-naked pirates with no military ambition, I have no IC reasons to deny such a Resulotion of Proper Conduct amongst noble nations. As a player, I am abivalent and will follow the majority.





THe reason I suggested a different color was because I am old and color is easier to see than strike-outs. It was a suggestion. Also, with fluff having the speech and declarations and stuff, they would be seperate. Like I said, just a suggestion.

A simple compromise is between each edit, we could put EDIT: in caps and red, after the strike through text. That way, color-sensitive ruler speech is maintained, and you get the option of easier to see color of edits.

Strike-through example EDIT:

I think this'll slow things down *far* too much... again, I don't see a problem with the current system.

Actually, I think you see LESS problems with the current system.

[zabbarot]

A simple compromise is between each edit, we could put EDIT: in caps and red, after the strike through text. That way, color-sensitive ruler speech is maintained, and you get the option of easier to see color of edits.

Strike-through example EDIT:

A logical compromise. Pun completely intended.

[SamBurke]

A simple compromise is between each edit, we could put EDIT: in caps and red, after the strike through text. That way, color-sensitive ruler speech is maintained, and you get the option of easier to see color of edits.

Strike-through example EDIT:


Actually, I think you see LESS problems with the current system.

A logical compromise. Pun completely intended.

I vote for puns and for this truth.

[Morph Bark]

Will reply to some stuff soon. Currently, the first VENTURE! Beta test is on with Waylander, Chacmon, SamBurke, QuintonBeck and Rain Dragon.

[Logic]

Will reply to some stuff soon. Currently, the first VENTURE! Beta test is on with Waylander, Chacmon, SamBurke, QuintonBeck and Rain Dragon.

Aw! How come I wasn't invited?

Oh, BETA. Right. Gotcha. Carry on!

[SamBurke]

Aw! How come I wasn't invited?

Oh, BETA. Right. Gotcha. Carry on!

Cause Andust is as old as dirt...?