Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. II: It's A Magical Thread

[LaZodiac]

a katana??? I must have missed something.

Pretty sure they were handing him a katana at the end.

[dehro]

Pretty sure they were handing him a katana at the end.

must rewatch it, because usually I don't miss these things.... then again, I'm not familiar enough with the marvel universe to know that a katana is a significant clue and am watching with some puzzlement the debate "inhuman or not". I'll be taking it in as it is revealed on the show, I guess.

[Shinken]

I don't know about no katana

[Dusk Eclipse]

I saw that part as "Ward not secure enough in his masculinity to literally seduce another man for the sake of a mission." Once Skye made the obvious "just get all buddy-buddy with him" suggestion Ward's attempt at doing so was quite good (if still for naught due to the incredible stoicness of the target).



Definitely Inhuman. "Being blue" is not a trait that's going to be recessive.

Considering Korath (from GotG) is black, it could be that in the MCU the krees come in all kind of colours including Blue and possibly caucassian

Also what about Vin Diesel and inhumans? Has Marvel said they are going to do an Inhuman movie/series?

[Joran]

Actually, that line is itself a case in point. Making initial contact with a potential asset is exactly the sort of thing Ward should have been able to fake his way through by "Pretending for the Mission;" since Ward wasn't expecting to recruit Skye as an active, full-time team member when he said that, there's no reason his lack of team-player-ness should have come up in discussing an op which (Ward thought) was just going to be a quick in-and-out. But the persona Ward adopted for Team Coulson wasn't merely "not a team player" but all the way down the dial to "completely socially inept."

EDIT: Sorry, the line was referring to Mike and not Skye. The point stands, however.

I think the persona that Ward adopted for Team Coulson and SHIELD was basically his normal personality, with some of the darker parts sanded off. It's easier to stay in character rather than having to feign being Mr. Ra-Ra-Go-Team every hour of every day for years.

When Hill mentioned that Ward had the best espionage skills behind Romanov, I thought that meant being sneaky, like when he was with Fitz, infiltrating the base in a black jumpsuit, rather than being the face/charmer like Bond.

[Kitten Champion]

In the comics at least, the pink-skinned Kree are the ethnic majority in the empire but are politically and socially marginalized in favour of the larger blue-skinned Kree.

Incidently, I hope they don't Chris Carter the whole Skye's origin subplot and were not still guessing going into season 3. It is an interesting question given the crazy possibilities within the Marvel Universe and the fact that nothing else was expanded upon in the mythos of the MCU in Agents of SHIELD besides this, but I'd rather they just get the initial mystery out of the way and then have that raise more questions from there. Allowing the character to grow in a different direction as a result.

[LaZodiac]

Considering Korath (from GotG) is black, it could be that in the MCU the krees come in all kind of colours including Blue and possibly caucassian

Also what about Vin Diesel and inhumans? Has Marvel said they are going to do an Inhuman movie/series?

Vin Diesel said that he was in the works about Marvel about "something big and you're gonna like it" and we all thought it was Groot. But then recently (not to today, but from the news report I read) he said something along the lines of how it'd be Inhuman of him not to hint at it, har har har obvious joke, complete with having the Inhuman be uppercase.

Then like a week later it's revealed that yes we're getting an Inhuman's movie and he plays...Blacksomething or other. The one with the death voice.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Blackbolt.... what is with Vin Diesel and relatively silent characters lately?

But Inhuman movie, now I'm hyped!

[TheEmerged]

Episode 12 - Seeds. Again, this is first time viewing for me. As a first-time comment, the "Mary Sue" thing with Skye got a lot worse with this episode.

Okay, we see Ward slipping a little bit and proving he has more people skills than he has let on during this episode. We also get a hint that May has an inroads with Fury (since she got that file directly from him, it seems).

In light of the Winter Solider revelations, Coulson's concern that Shield might not be the safest place turn out to be right.

[LaZodiac]

I'll be honest I don't even remember what episode Seeds is.

[SeeDarkly_X]

I'll be honest I don't even remember what episode Seeds is.

Introduced Donnie Gill.

[TheEmerged]

I'll be honest I don't even remember what episode Seeds is.

The "Back to School" special, so to speak, with the cold-inducing weapon, Donnie Gill and the revelation that Skye herself is an 084/mystery origin.

[LaZodiac]

The "Back to School" special, so to speak, with the cold-inducing weapon, Donnie Gill and the revelation that Skye herself is an 084/mystery origin.

Aah, right, that one. Nice.

[TheEmerged]

Episode 13 - TRACKS, AKA The Train, AKA the multiple-perspectives reveal episode.

I think I caught like the last 15-20 min of this episode twice during its run. It was nice to watch the rest of it. I loved the aforementioned multiple-perspectives revelatory nature of it. What is it with Stan Lee doing cameos with a woman on each side these days?

The only real "hindsight" bit is that this episode should probably have been a huge clue that the Clairvoyant was actually connected to Shield.

Episode 14- TAHITI This was a first-timer viewer for me.

Several scenes of May getting a weird look when Coulson's rebirth comes up. Yeah, we should've realized she knew more about it than she was letting on.

This was our introduction to Garrett and Trip. In hindsight, Garrett was rather obviously not chasing Quinn but working with him. The part where he mocks Quinn for believing that 'psychic mumbo jumbo' was amusing.

...Okay, they better explain this later but there's no WAY Coulson should be having this conversation in front of Quinn.

Yeah, we're going to need a category for Garret making comments about the Clairvoyant.

[dehro]

What is it with Stan Lee doing cameos with a woman on each side these days?

to paraphrase Simon LeBon's answer to the question "why is it that music stars marry top models?"... because he can

[Philistine]

I saw that part as "Ward not secure enough in his masculinity to literally seduce another man for the sake of a mission." Once Skye made the obvious "just get all buddy-buddy with him" suggestion Ward's attempt at doing so was quite good (if still for naught due to the incredible stoicness of the target).

The thing is, the non-sexual usage of "seduce" as "buddy up to someone in order to persuade them to do something they normally wouldn't" is common enough in espionage fiction that it's startling to see Grant "The Complete Solution" Ward being so thrown by it. (Presumably the writers of the episode are familiar with the same usage - otherwise we have to conclude that Amador's handler (thought he) was ordering her to have sex with the security guard.)

I think the persona that Ward adopted for Team Coulson and SHIELD was basically his normal personality, with some of the darker parts sanded off. It's easier to stay in character rather than having to feign being Mr. Ra-Ra-Go-Team every hour of every day for years.

As I'm re-watching the first season, I'm coming around to the idea that most of what Ward had to do to convey the "no people skills" idea was flub the personality quiz during Hill's assessment - after that his teammates' assumptions did the heavy lifting for him, with nothing more than occasional reminders.

When Hill mentioned that Ward had the best espionage skills behind Romanov, I thought that meant being sneaky, like when he was with Fitz, infiltrating the base in a black jumpsuit, rather than being the face/charmer like Bond.

Yeah... but sometimes you run into obstacles that you can't bypass, break through/down, or beat up. We see exactly such a situation in the seduction scene in "Eye Spy," where Ward would have had a much smoother ride if he'd been able/allowed to charm his way past the guard. It simply isn't credible that Ward could be "the best since Romanov" at "espionage" without at least a modicum of ability to BS people. Which is why it's so odd that Hill, Coulson, Skye, and Ward himself take every opportunity to insist that he has zero talent in that area.

Okay, we see Ward slipping a little bit and proving he has more people skills than he has let on during this episode. We also get a hint that May has an inroads with Fury (since she got that file directly from him, it seems).

For a guy who supposedly is terrible at all human social interactions, Ward is actually pretty good at it in the early season (arguably better than he is post-Winter Soldier). There's a lot of talk about Ward's supposed lack of people skills in the early episodes, but we keep seeing him do things like training Skye, or pulling off the truth serum ploy in the pilot, or coaching Fitz and Simmons prior to the big breakout in "0-8-4," or offering to talk down the scientist they're trying to rescue in "The Asset," or coaching Fitz again in "The Hub," or...

*****

Crazy idea: SHIELD has, or had, the ability to selectively alter minds, to take away inconvenient or uncomfortable memories and replace them with something more palatable. Could they give Ward the "magical place" treatment, replacing the Garrett/HYDRA memories with something more pleasant? That would be one way to get him back on the team without redeeming him in any meaningful sense.

[theNater]

For a guy who supposedly is terrible at all human social interactions, Ward is actually pretty good at it in the early season (arguably better than he is post-Winter Soldier). There's a lot of talk about Ward's supposed lack of people skills in the early episodes, but we keep seeing him do things like training Skye, or pulling off the truth serum ploy in the pilot, or coaching Fitz and Simmons prior to the big breakout in "0-8-4," or offering to talk down the scientist they're trying to rescue in "The Asset," or coaching Fitz again in "The Hub," or...

Is it possible that what he's bad at is undirected social interactions? That, through the tricks of the trade, he knows how to behave in order to manipulate people into certain attitudes or behaviors, but when he's not trying to get something out of someone, he doesn't know what to do? I think that explains his reputation for being socially awkward(when working with other agents, he's not using his social engineering skills), his impressive social interactions with this team(he's actively trying to manipulate them into trusting him), and his social awkwardness after Winter Soldier(when he's back to working with people he's not trying to manipulate).

I got the idea from Burn Notice. Michael is a brilliant social manipulator, but can't get through an honest conversation with Fiona without putting his foot in his mouth.

[dehro]

Crazy idea: SHIELD has, or had, the ability to selectively alter minds, to take away inconvenient or uncomfortable memories and replace them with something more palatable. Could they give Ward the "magical place" treatment, replacing the Garrett/HYDRA memories with something more pleasant? That would be one way to get him back on the team without redeeming him in any meaningful sense.

I hope they don't. That was an experimental treatment and a price of sorts, given to an unquestionably positive figure for services rendered and a necessity to avoid making him go insane, not quite something I'd like to be given to someone who's been a sleeper enemy agent along his entire career... Because... Why not give it to every other criminal as well then? Which, I'm sure, is the plot for a whole 'nother movie.
On a narrative level it would handwave any consequence for his actions and undermine any character development we've seen, plus altering his memory would still not alter his questionable character (also, they wiped a few minutes/hours from Coulson's mind, replacing it with one thought/trigger "Tahiti..." and would have to wipe decades from that of Ward.. And replace it with what...?)

[TheEmerged]

Episode 15: Yes Men. This was the final episode I didn't see the first time through. A good enough episode, although I personally couldn't ever tear myself passed my disappointment that the actress for Sif bad-mouthed the possibility of playing Wonder Woman.

The only real hindsight at this point is the way it should have been more obvious that Ward is a bit darker than we gave him credit for at this stage. We did get our first outright statement that May had her own agenda.

Episode 16 - the End of the Beginning. This will be the last one I'll be covering, since this is the point you might call the Spoiler Border.

Ah, and I was going to worry about where Agent Blake (the guy who touched Lola) ended up on the Hydra\Shield scale - he was hospitalized. I do like that he was shown to be competent (putting the tracker on) and on the side of angels (trying to help Mike\Deathlok even as he's being choked).

In hindsight? Ward's killing of the fake Clairvoyant makes more sense and doesn't seem as impulsive\out of character as it did at the time and really should have raised more of an eyebrow that he might actually have an agenda of his own ("Hey, he just did exactly what the real Clairvoyant would have wanted someone to do, wonder if he's working with him?"). Also, of COURSE the Clairvoyant could react to what was in the room, he actually was in it...

The biggest hindsight point from this episode has to be Garret's conversation with Skye. Dear GOD is that scene creepier when you know he's the Clairvoyant, especially his smile as he's talking shop about his injuries. It went from "Hey, I like this girl, she's got some chops and isn't some desk jockey..." In hindsight? It's way more into Creepy Uncle "You got something I want, <diminutive term for female>, and I'm looking forward to taking it from you" territory.

[Pex]

The bad news is the show's new time slot conflicts with Face Off. The good news Face Off is repeated at 11 pm, right after Person of Interest. All is well.

[LaZodiac]

Episode 15: Yes Men. This was the final episode I didn't see the first time through. A good enough episode, although I personally couldn't ever tear myself passed my disappointment that the actress for Sif bad-mouthed the possibility of playing Wonder Woman.

Episode 16 - the End of the Beginning. This will be the last one I'll be covering, since this is the point you might call the Spoiler Border.

Ah, and I was going to worry about where Agent Blake (the guy who touched Lola) ended up on the Hydra\Shield scale - he was hospitalized. I do like that he was shown to be competent (putting the tracker on) and on the side of angels (trying to help Mike\Deathlok even as he's being choked).

In hindsight? Ward's killing of the fake Clairvoyant makes more sense and doesn't seem as impulsive\out of character as it did at the time and really should have raised more of an eyebrow that he might actually have an agenda of his own ("Hey, he just did exactly what the real Clairvoyant would have wanted someone to do, wonder if he's working with him?"). Also, of COURSE the Clairvoyant could react to what was in the room, he actually was in it...

The biggest hindsight point from this episode has to be Garret's conversation with Skye. Dear GOD is that scene creepier when you know he's the Clairvoyant, especially his smile as he's talking shop about his injuries. It went from "Hey, I like this girl, she's got some chops and isn't some desk jockey..." In hindsight? It's way more into Creepy Uncle "You got something I want, <diminutive term for female>, and I'm looking forward to taking it from you" territory.

To be fair, she might of badmouthed playing that role because of who would be writing it

And yes, EVERYTHING about "The End of the Beginning" is fantastic in hindsight. Hooly crap.

[theNater]

...the actress for Sif bad-mouthed the possibility of playing Wonder Woman.

When did this happen?

[SeeDarkly_X]

When did this happen?

Comic Book Resources has a couple of articles about it:

“I’m a huge fan of Wonder Woman,” she said. “I really think if this is the closest that we’re ever going to get to Wonder Woman, then I’m proud to play Sif. I hope that other comic book entities can learn a lesson from Marvel in how to execute a female character the way it should be done. I really would like to one day see a Wonder Woman film or Wonder Woman character, but until it’s done with class, I’d rather it not be done.”

Part of what she is referring to in that comment is in regard to her opinion of the unaired TV pilot, not the Lynda Carter series (of which she is significantly knowledgeable.) It's possible she's aware of certain scripting details for DoJ as well.
She went on to say she'd rather do a Sif spin-off if she could.

[LaZodiac]

Comic Book Resources has a couple of articles about it:


Part of what she is referring to in that comment is in regard to her opinion of the unaired TV pilot, not the Lynda Carter series (of which she is significantly knowledgeable.) It's possible she's aware of certain scripting details for DoJ as well.
She went on to say she'd rather do a Sif spin-off if she could.

I'd be totally okay with a Sif spin-off, as long as it featured the other warriors three as supporting characters.

Also lets be fair here, she's right about Wonder Woman.

[Calemyr]

Episode 15: Yes Men. This was the final episode I didn't see the first time through. A good enough episode, although I personally couldn't ever tear myself passed my disappointment that the actress for Sif bad-mouthed the possibility of playing Wonder Woman.

The only real hindsight at this point is the way it should have been more obvious that Ward is a bit darker than we gave him credit for at this stage. We did get our first outright statement that May had her own agenda.

There is the fact that Ward tries to shoot May AFTER Lorelai is defeated but before he learns about it. That really bugged the hell out of me when I first saw the episode. His first thought when sane was to use the confusion to try to execute an undesirable wild card, but they never bring any attention to a brilliant piece of subtle editing.

Episode 16 - the End of the Beginning. This will be the last one I'll be covering, since this is the point you might call the Spoiler Border.

I don't follow you. We're already talking loads about Garret as the Clairvoyant and Ward as the double agent. What "border" is left to respect? The last episodes are far and away the best part of the season anyway.

One thing I did like about Agents of SHIELD was the fact that Ward's double agency wasn't revealed to the actors themselves until Turn Turn Turn. Ward's actor says he felt like he actually betrayed his fellow cast members when he saw their reactions to the script.

[LaZodiac]

There is the fact that Ward tries to shoot May AFTER Lorelai is defeated but before he learns about it. That really bugged the hell out of me when I first saw the episode. His first thought when sane was to use the confusion to try to execute an undesirable wild card, but they never bring any attention to a brilliant piece of subtle editing.

I don't follow you. We're already talking loads about Garret as the Clairvoyant and Ward as the double agent. What "border" is left to respect? The last episodes are far and away the best part of the season anyway.

One thing I did like about Agents of SHIELD was the fact that Ward's double agency wasn't revealed to the actors themselves until Turn Turn Turn. Ward's actor says he felt like he actually betrayed his fellow cast members when he saw their reactions to the script.

Oh god you're right, he DID do that. Holy crap.

Cause next episode is the one where Hydra rears it's many heads, if I recall.

Also, he SHOULD, because in a way he DID. He was Team Badguy all along.

[TheEmerged]

I don't follow you. We're already talking loads about Garret as the Clairvoyant and Ward as the double agent. What "border" is left to respect? The last episodes are far and away the best part of the season anyway.

Well, my purpose for going through these episodes on the board was to go back through and catch all the hints I/we may have missed and things that look very different (I emphasize again, Garret's one-on-one with Sky looks a LOT creepier now), knowing what we now know. "End of the Beginning" represents the point at which we basically know what we know - the last real reveals are the next episode, "Turn Turn Turn".

So it's not that there's a spoiler to protect (for the record, I for one think this "spoiler" thing is overblown for most media but that's a rant for another post). It's that this border represents the point at which the "spoiler" is revealed and I can't really talk about any more hints regarding it. Is that clearer?

[Joran]

Is it possible that what he's bad at is undirected social interactions? That, through the tricks of the trade, he knows how to behave in order to manipulate people into certain attitudes or behaviors, but when he's not trying to get something out of someone, he doesn't know what to do? I think that explains his reputation for being socially awkward(when working with other agents, he's not using his social engineering skills), his impressive social interactions with this team(he's actively trying to manipulate them into trusting him), and his social awkwardness after Winter Soldier(when he's back to working with people he's not trying to manipulate).

I got the idea from Burn Notice. Michael is a brilliant social manipulator, but can't get through an honest conversation with Fiona without putting his foot in his mouth.

I like that a lot. The flipside is Agent Garrett who is a social butterfly to Ward's brooding sidekick.

Edit: New Season Starts Tomorrow!

[TheOldCrow]

Well, my purpose for going through these episodes on the board was to go back through and catch all the hints I/we may have missed and things that look very different (I emphasize again, Garret's one-on-one with Sky looks a LOT creepier now), knowing what we now know. "End of the Beginning" represents the point at which we basically know what we know - the last real reveals are the next episode, "Turn Turn Turn".

TheEmerged, I enjoyed reading your recaps that you did from that perspective. I think May is particularly interesting in hindsight. I like that in one episode you spotted a mention that she had read Ward''s file. It's nice that that was mentioned so early, given the reveal in Turn Turn Turn that she was the one who put the team together. She would have been looking for someone with particular traits, and in Ward's case it would have been the ability to take out his team mate if called upon to do so. That one kind of came back to bite them!

Also, the more erratic Coulson's behavior got and the more Coulson found out, the colder May got towards Ward whenever Ward tried to cozy up to her, as it became more and more likely that she would have to call upon Ward's particular talent. That scene in the cockpit where she unceremoniously dumps him makes a lot more sense in hindsight, since she was about to listen in on Coulson and Skye to find out what Coulson knew.

[LaZodiac]

And according to interviews with Ward's actor (as mentioned last page) this was ALL PLANNED FROM THE START. Always bet on Marvel, folks.