Will Save World For Gold. (Thread Mark III)

[Dragolord]

kinda stinks that penut isn't unique, buuuuttt.... pbt.

Unless he wipes out all of his inbred brethren in the dead of night, of course.

I wouldn't count on Peanut being there too long. After all, Elli and her new (possibly temporary) party will be coming through in the near future. That or the Kobolt running the show will say something that will force Ardon to reconsider this particular method of what he's attempting.

If Ell does turn up with Evergard Senior and senior in tow, which kobold will she pick? Also, Ell is now alliterative.

EDIT: Gah, so many typos.

[random11]

Ell! Don't you know that traveling with the family you just found to fight their enemy who is stronger then you, is the quickest way to lose the newly found family and vowing to fight the enemy out of vengeance?!

Then again, NOT going with them will lead to the same result plus guilt for not going, so I guess you should start packing...

[Dragolord]

I sincerely, sincerely hope that Elldine never finds out about this. Ever.

[Ibrinar]

Hmm, she met Ardon as baby and he was an important influence on her life. Their new meeting must be fate, obviously I shall ship them now! (Reading urban fantasy has taught me that supernatural love interests don't have to be moral or particularly likeable. Granted it would work better if he were the brooding ******* type but oh well.)

Anyway more serious: about the only way she might find that out is if somehow an eyewitness turns up or Ardon for some reason remembers running someone over, speaks about it for some reason and gives enough info to identify his victim. Rather unlikely but I suppose it could happen.

[The Mormegil]

Story structure: the author would never have shown this right now if there was any chance this was going to come up in the future.

[Anteros]

I really hope we get either some sort of redemption arc for Ardon at some point, or he actually gets his comeuppance.

[Dragolord]

I really hope we get either some sort of redemption arc for Ardon at some point, or he actually gets his comeuppance.

If he's serious about picking a fight with Dire, he might in the next few days.

[Anteros]

I don't see the plot headed that way...and it wouldn't be satisfying if it came at the hands of some random villain anyway. If he's going to get a comeuppance, it needs to be a result of his evil actions.

[Lizard Lord]

With Ardon leaving Peanut with the kobold dugeonscapping company, Ell and Odivallus joining the SoS, and Ardon and Fortyfive heading towards it seems like we are nearing a chapter change or time skip or something (not the end of the story, of course, it is too early and too many lose plot threads for that). Either that or the SoS lose against Dire.

Can't really see Ell staying with Ardon as long as joining the SoS is an option for her.

[Macros]

Can't really see Ell staying with Ardon as long as joining the SoS is an option for her.

That's why I believe this option will be taken away at some point. I somehow doubt the rest of the comic will be about the wondrous adventures of the Sons of Solemnity, their new-found relative and her prospective boyfriend.

[Metahuman1]

Knowing this comic Ell will have her family butchered in front of her. That said, I propose A theory that probably won't happen but I'd enjoy at this point.

Ardon and 45 will attempt to fight Dire and he'll toy with them rather then kill them cause he's an ego manic and there not a threat. And during this he will say/do something that will get him inside Ardon's head/past/memories/something. When that happens, he'll use how horrible Ardon is, and how much more of a monster he himself (this being Dire.) is, as an angle to screw with Ardon at a VERY deep level which will, perhaps not immediately, result in him growing some spine and a larger chunk of empathy. He'll still be something of a jerk and loathed to admit when he's wrong or has screwed up, but will see him doing things to attempt to make amends for the really horrible things he'd done in life like stabbing the halfling for sake of convince or running down Ell's aunt and causing her to die and Ell to be orphaned for decades.


And the SoS will be in regular touch with Ell, but will have leveled her and geared her up proper to her level, and will have her be in charge of keeping Ardon in line during what there gonna end up treating as a probationary period/his rehab. Cause that's a very Paladinish thing to do.

[Dragolord]

That's why I believe this option will be taken away at some point. I somehow doubt the rest of the comic will be about the wondrous adventures of the Sons of Solemnity, their new-found relative and her prospective boyfriend.

Don't be so sure! Lonestarnorth has said that "the upcoming arc" (this one) will have major changes in the comic's dynamic. Although, personally, I don't see her joining permanently, not seven levels below everyone else.

[The Mormegil]

Here's a breaking point for me personally. The easy way out is to kill the SoS and it's what I expect. Surprise me, and you've done a good job and will keep me hooked for much longer. Go down a stale road and I guess I'll stick for a bit longer to see if you have some nice ideas but... yeah... meh comic.

[Metahuman1]

Here's a breaking point for me personally. The easy way out is to kill the SoS and it's what I expect. Surprise me, and you've done a good job and will keep me hooked for much longer. Go down a stale road and I guess I'll stick for a bit longer to see if you have some nice ideas but... yeah... meh comic.

I'm inclined to agree. Personally, I could see them doing a time skip to level/gear up and do tactical training for Ell, Odi, Peanut and anyone else who survives and stays with them to get them up a few levels before moving on to less of a black comedy focus and getting into more dramatic/larger scale events after Dealing with Dire and possibly Ardon's Dad (at least temporarily.). I could see that, and that would be good since as I've mentioned, even though Ardon Win's points at times, he's also prone to doing horrible horrible things that make liking him at best a struggle, and hell, we've already set 45 up to double cross them, the only question was when precisely, how precisely, and how effective will it be.

[Anteros]

I feel like Ell is going to realize that her dad isn't a very good paladin.

What kind of paladin teaches you to choose between the lesser of two evils? Dude completely misses the point of being a paladin at all.

[Lizard Lord]

The last panel made me respect Erald and I believe him when he says he is sorry. He is certainly harsh about it, but protecting people is and always has been his number one priority. I do consider him an example of a good paladin, regardless of of whether or not he is in the wrong with the Avenger Prime. (Although with it being a family heirloom it maybe that he does have some right to it after all. Granted his wife (forget her name) would have more right to it being a blood descendant, but she seems to favor axes anyways.)

[Lord Raziere]

I feel like Ell is going to realize that her dad isn't a very good paladin.

What kind of paladin teaches you to choose between the lesser of two evils? Dude completely misses the point of being a paladin at all.

Yeah. The Lesser Evil is still evil. You choose Zero Evil (also known as Good), that is what a paladin is about.

but then again....this is a 4e paladin. There is only five alignments in this edition: Lawful good, good, unaligned, evil and chaotic evil, and a paladin in 4e can take any one of them. clearly not chaotic evil. but doesn't feel lawful good. so could be a very cynical interpretation of good, unaligned as "anti-hero" or a very passive Evil.

[Lizard Lord]

I feel like Ell is going to realize that her dad isn't a very good paladin.

What kind of paladin teaches you to choose between the lesser of two evils? Dude completely misses the point of being a paladin at all.

Nevermind the fact that the cleric and other paladin agrees with him. No this is clearly just Erald being a bad paladin.

Not trying to rescue someone you can't rescue while putting your whole party at even greater risk and likely letting the bad guy get away with his evil plans (making it so that you can't save the people he has cursed nor stop the curse from spreading) is not evil,(thus not the lesser of two). It doesn't make you feel good because people are still dying, but frankly what would you do? Being a paladin does not give you the magic ability to have a solution for everything.

Or necessarily increase your problem solving skills at all really.

[Marnath]

Yeah. The Lesser Evil is still evil. You choose Zero Evil (also known as Good), that is what a paladin is about.

That is patently absurd. Thinking like that is how DM's railroad the paladin into "you fall, period" territory. Sometimes there isn't a Zero Evil option, you just have to work for the best outcome that is within your power to make happen. You don't get to punish the paladin for something he is powerless to change.

[Macros]

The problem, in this particular situation, is that they don't even try. They wrote off Forty-five and Ardon (and Peanuts, but it seems he was kind of forgotten in this strip) as regrettable losses, and well, you know, that's that. It's certainly a very pragmatic decision, but hardly a good one. Especially given that by their own estimates, they have a very good chance of saving them : after all, Ardon & co should be bogged down in the dungeon, still far from Dirge, right? It wouldn't even be that dangerous for the SoS since the way might be cleared before them by the previous party. Obviously, I'm presenting a "best case" scenario, but what kind of paladin pull back because there's a chance that things go wrong? And I have a sneaking suspicion that if it was Ell and not Ardon out there, the decision would have been reversed in a heartbeat.

Now, Lord Raziere is right to point out that paladins in 4e can be of any alignment, and have a lot more lattitude to act. But I don't think I would peg Erald (and by extension, the others, since they didn't really argue the point) as Lawful Good.

[Marnath]

Obviously, I'm presenting a "best case" scenario, but what kind of paladin pull back because there's a chance that things go wrong? And I have a sneaking suspicion that if it was Ell and not Ardon out there, the decision would have been reversed in a heartbeat.

The kind that is smart enough to know he can't do good deeds anymore if he does something stupid and gets his team killed? Waiting for an actual window of opportunity to kill the BBEG at the expense of two people who knew what they were getting into is a much better long term plan than rushing in, getting killed along with the two they will have failed to save anyway, and letting the BBEG go around killing dozens or hundreds more innocent people completely at will.

[Macros]

And that's the worse case scenario, and the one Erald decided to follow. But it doesn't mean it has to turn up that way, and if we add up all the assumption they made, it isn't even likely to turn up that way. Heck, have they even considered that giving Dirge the time to get his hands on the rest of the party means he will probably be aware that the SoS are near and coming soon?

All in all, I thought that this decision was not Good, and not even that smart.

[Metahuman1]

Your also missing the fact that he's seen Ardon preform Cold Blooded Murder just cause it was expedient, and he knows Ardon's going at this for nothing but personal gain. This is a person who, if not sentenced to execution, is gonna have to be contained for a very long time because he is extremely dangerous in his own right. Why should he put his family, his friends and his adventuring party at risk and risk loosing a powerful artifact too the enemy and letting him go on to kill countless more innocents to save someone like that when all that someone had to do to not need saving was do what he'd instructed him to.





That said, I have a new theory:

Ardon and 45 will get to Archwarlock. Archwarlock will know who Ardon is and about the bounty and be interested in obtaining it since hey, idiot dropped him self in my lap, might as well. 45 will refuse to help Ardon because this is a thing he brought on himself that will get him killed and tell Dire "Hey, since I could have stopped him form dropping in your lap, split it with you?" to which Dire will say "Sure." cause why have unneeded fuss?


And so in the time between this and the SoS getting there, Dire is gonna Torture Ardon horribly, physically and mentally, and then the SoS are gonna get there and end up saving him, and being slightly participating in the battle Ell will gain a level and be like 1 XP away form gaining another one, and Ardon will have 1) Been rather brutally punished above and beyond what any law the SoS would recognize as just would ever allow and thus decide he's done his time for what he's done up to that point (That they know of at least.), and that there gonna help Ell with keeping an eye on him in the interests of rehabbing him. This will be exasperated when they get back to south Crossing and Ardon's dad springs his trap, and we need both party's and possibly the elf chick (and also possibly minus 45 depending on how things pan out.) to deal with him for the next several arcs.

[stsasser]

That is patently absurd. Thinking like that is how DM's railroad the paladin into "you fall, period" territory. Sometimes there isn't a Zero Evil option, you just have to work for the best outcome that is within your power to make happen. You don't get to punish the paladin for something he is powerless to change.

He could have chosen to be something other than a paladin. As is, he should be confronted with the consequences of having adopted an absolutist world view in exchange for the advantages of paladin-hood.

[Marnath]

He could have chosen to be something other than a paladin. As is, he should be confronted with the consequences of having adopted an absolutist world view in exchange for the advantages of paladin-hood.

Failure is not a violation of the paladin code.

"Advantages of paladin-hood?" What, is the class not terrible in 4e? Because it was sure terrible in 3.5e.

[Lord Raziere]

ok, I'm wrong about the Zero Evil thing. kay?

but keep in mind: paladins are not 3.5 code-bounders. they're a class with variance like anyone else. chaotic evil paladin is not even an oxymoron in 4e. I doubt he is the classic paladin at all. I'll just assume that he is either Good or Unaligned, since he is opposing an Evil being.

[dancrilis]

Just to throw my bit in here, I like the comic - particularly the black comedy, reminds me of 8-Bit Theater meets Order of the Stick.

So fair play to the author.

I get that some people want to see evil punished and soundly defeated - but since that seems to be the norm I do kind of like to see it broken and played with at times (as happens on this comic).

[Metahuman1]

The problem is becoming that Ardon ALWAYS get's away with it. Usually Scot free.

8-bit theater worked cause the bad people in the group, especially black mage, always or at least often had it back fire on them.

[dancrilis]

The problem is becoming that Ardon ALWAYS get's away with it. Usually Scot free.

8-bit theater worked cause the bad people in the group, especially black mage, always or at least often had it back fire on them.

Yea like that time they destroyed a town three times, or that time they destroyed another town, or serial killed a whole much of people as part of a protection racket before destroying a town, or destroyed a bunch of dwarf towns to spell out a message, or when they tricked a demon into destroying a town.

Karma really bite them on the ass for those.
Except for the fact that it didn't at all touch them for any of those to memory - and I could probably list more town destroying examples if I thought about it. Not to mention crimes that were not related to destroying a town, or attempted crimes (but than is attempted rape/murder-necrophilia really that bad - don't give prizes for attempted chemistry after all).

I don't want to assume but I think you might be somewhat misremembering some of the stuff they got away with (which is not to say my own memory is perfect, perhaps some of the above did have consequences that I am blanking on).

Which my the way is in no way a criticism of 8-Bit Theater it was an excellent well written humourous series, but not really a thesis on moral behaviour demonstrating how good people get rewarded and bad people get punished / more how powerful people get what they want and weaker people get stepped on (of course there is frequently a more powerful person to do additional stepping).
So in a way more realistic.

[LoneStarNorth]

I feel like sparking a paladin alignment debate on GitP forums is puberty for a D&D webcomic. My little baby is becoming a man before my very eyes.