Will Save World For Gold. (Thread Mark III)

[stsasser]

Failure is not a violation of the paladin code.

Passing summary judgement on Ardon may seem pragmatic, but when were paladins ever supposed to be pragmatic?
It certainly isn't lawful, not any more than executing an ogre without any previous trial or inquiry.
I wouldn't be surprised if Avenger Prime refuses to power up for him the next time he tries to use it...which would be a TERRIBLE thing to happen just when he's confronting Krakaboom.

"Advantages of paladin-hood?" What, is the class not terrible in 4e? Because it was sure terrible in 3.5e.

Yet some doofus will still choose it...go figure.

[Anteros]

Nevermind the fact that the cleric and other paladin agrees with him. No this is clearly just Erald being a bad paladin.

Not trying to rescue someone you can't rescue while putting your whole party at even greater risk and likely letting the bad guy get away with his evil plans (making it so that you can't save the people he has cursed nor stop the curse from spreading) is not evil,(thus not the lesser of two). It doesn't make you feel good because people are still dying, but frankly what would you do? Being a paladin does not give you the magic ability to have a solution for everything.

Or necessarily increase your problem solving skills at all really.

I would expect an adventuring party that has been together for 20+ years to hold similar ideals. It doesn't make them right.
They explicitly have another option...it's just a greater danger to themselves so they don't take it.

Your also missing the fact that he's seen Ardon preform Cold Blooded Murder just cause it was expedient, and he knows Ardon's going at this for nothing but personal gain.

The only thing he's seen Ardon do was kill goblins that were actively attacking him, kill an ogre that Ardon explicitly stated was to prevent it from getting back up and attacking townspeople, and immediately surrender into his custody upon demand. We know Ardon is a cold blooded murderer who deserves death. Erald has no such evidence. Actually, his only interaction with Ardon has Ardon actively putting himself at risk to protect the townspeople, even after learning there was no reward. He simply disapproves of his methods....because apparently black and white morality is fine...as long as it applies to other people and not himself.

He's also fully aware that Ardon is currently under the influence of a spell that is lowering his intelligence and ability to make good decisions, yet takes no such consideration for that fact. Add that to the fact that he immediately chastised El for protecting herself from those attacking her, and then tried to steal her sword, and now wants to leave people to die in exchange for a potential tactical advantage? He's just as much a walking stereotype of a "bad paladin" character as Miko was.

That is patently absurd. Thinking like that is how DM's railroad the paladin into "you fall, period" territory. Sometimes there isn't a Zero Evil option, you just have to work for the best outcome that is within your power to make happen. You don't get to punish the paladin for something he is powerless to change.

Any paladin in one of my campaigns that wrote other people off to certain death in order to lessen danger to himself would indeed be put on a very short leash and in danger of falling if such behavior continued.

If there isn't a zero evil option, the paladin has to try to create one. If you don't want to do that, play another class. He doesn't get to condemn other people to death that he hardly knows because they aren't worth saving, or he thinks his own life is more important. You also don't get to condemn people to death in order to prevent a potential threat in the future. That's fine behavior for other characters...even good ones. A paladin? No.

He's literally leaving people to die in exchange for a tactical advantage. That isn't something paladins do.


Edit: Apparently none of this matters since it's 4E and it's perfectly acceptable for "paladins" to be morally grey or even evil. I wasn't aware of this change until just now.

[Lizard Lord]

The problem, in this particular situation, is that they don't even try. They wrote off Forty-five and Ardon (and Peanuts, but it seems he was kind of forgotten in this strip) as regrettable losses, and well, you know, that's that. It's certainly a very pragmatic decision, but hardly a good one. Especially given that by their own estimates, they have a very good chance of saving them

They don't think they have good chance of saving them. "But if we go after them now, we probably won't be there in time to save them and the risk to US will be greater besides."

[Anteros]

They don't think they have good chance of saving them. "But if we go after them now, we probably won't be there in time to save them and the risk to US will be greater besides."

So you don't see any problem with a PALADIN saying "oh well, we probably can't help them, why should we risk ourselves?"

[Marnath]

I would expect an adventuring party that has been together for 20+ years to hold similar ideals. It doesn't make them right.
They explicitly have another option...it's just a greater danger to themselves so they don't take it.



The only thing he's seen Ardon do was kill goblins that were actively attacking him, kill an ogre that Ardon explicitly stated was to prevent it from getting back up and attacking townspeople, and immediately surrender into his custody upon demand. We know Ardon is a cold blooded murderer who deserves death. Erald has no such evidence. Actually, his only interaction with Ardon has Ardon actively putting himself at risk to protect the townspeople, even after learning there was no reward. He simply disapproves of his methods....because apparently black and white morality is fine...as long as it applies to other people and not himself.

Killing the goblins was murder. Killing the ogre was murder. Ardon put himself at risk because he's INT damaged, not because he wants to save innocents.

He's also fully aware that Ardon is currently under the influence of a spell that is lowering his intelligence and ability to make good decisions, yet takes no such consideration for that fact. Add that to the fact that he immediately chastised El for protecting herself from those attacking her, and then tried to steal her sword, and now wants to leave people to die in exchange for a potential tactical advantage? He's just as much a walking stereotype of a "bad paladin" character as Miko was.

He chastised her for using lethal damage, not for taking them down. As I understand, in 4e there isn't even an attack penalty for non-lethal. He's not really stealing the sword so much as "borrowed it without asking and hasn't quite given it back yet." She hasn't asked for it back yet either, though. Also she was about to retire a few rounds ago so she wouldn't technically have needed it anymore.

You also don't get to condemn people to death in order to prevent a potential threat in the future. That's fine behavior for other characters...even good ones. A paladin? No.

He's literally leaving people to die in exchange for a tactical advantage. That isn't something paladins do.

Paladins and good people aren't required to kill themselves for no reason every time some moron gets into a bad situation, like say attacking a stupidly-high level caster without help. It's lawful good, not lawful stupid. If they behaved the way you describe they would never save anyone, instead of saving mostly everyone. You know, on account of having thrown their lives away instead of trying to accomplish something effectively.

[The Mormegil]

I feel like sparking a paladin alignment debate on GitP forums is puberty for a D&D webcomic. My little baby is becoming a man before my very eyes.

Hahahah!

(Also @paladin stuff: this is why I never play with alignment)

[Macros]

They don't think they have good chance of saving them. "But if we go after them now, we probably won't be there in time to save them and the risk to US will be greater besides."

Oh, I wasn't refering to that line... I was just saying that by their own logic, if you think about it, they'll probably reach Ardon before he'll reach Dirge. Is it a certainty? Of course not. But as they are, they actually stand a very good chance to make it in time.

Plus, as I mentioned before, it's not even a smart decision to pull back. Doing that actually increases the chance of Krakaboom guy to be ready for them (or just leaving, if he's in that kind of things). To sum up, I found this decision morally debatable (but in no way incompatible with a 4e paladins : they're now champions of their gods, and not of an ideal of good, and we don't know which god Erald follows... I think?) AND tactically unsound.

[Anteros]

Killing the goblins was murder. Killing the ogre was murder. Ardon put himself at risk because he's INT damaged, not because he wants to save innocents.

Killing something that is actively attacking you as well as those around you is not murder, it's self defense. As for Ardon's motivations, Erald doesn't know those.

He chastised her for using lethal damage, not for taking them down. As I understand, in 4e there isn't even an attack penalty for non-lethal.

He chastised her for defending herself. Should people use non-lethal damage every single time they're attacked just in case the attacker happens to be mind controlled without their knowledge? That's a ridiculous position to take.

He's not really stealing the sword so much as "borrowed it without asking and hasn't quite given it back yet." She hasn't asked for it back yet either, though. Also she was about to retire a few rounds ago so she wouldn't technically have needed it anymore.

There is a word for this. It's called "stealing". You don't get to take people's stuff just because they haven't asked you not to, or because you think you need it more than them.

Paladins and good people aren't required to kill themselves for no reason every time some moron gets into a bad situation, like say attacking a stupidly-high level caster without help. It's lawful good, not lawful stupid. If they behaved the way you describe they would never save anyone, instead of saving mostly everyone. You know, on account of having thrown their lives away instead of trying to accomplish something effectively.

They aren't required to kill themselves for no reason. If going after Ardon, 45, and Peanut meant certain death I would agree with your position. It doesn't though. They're trading their lives for a slight tactical advantage.

It's not even a good tactical advantage either, because if Ardon gets caught he's going to warn Dire that they're coming.

[Lizard Lord]

Oh, I wasn't refering to that line... I was just saying that by their own logic, if you think about it, they'll probably reach Ardon before he'll reach Dirge. Is it a certainty? Of course not. But as they are, they actually stand a very good chance to make it in time.

What logic are you going with here? Do you mean the logic that they fully expect Ardonto die before he ever reaches Dire, thus ensuring that whenever they get to Dire it will be before Ardon? Ell's mom says "probably" but I think she really means "almost certainly". They have no idea about the Kobold Dungeon Builder Union and no way of knowing that there would be an employee entrance (not even to mention the odds that Ardon would find it).

Everything else in that dungeon can and would easily kill Ardon (the SoS can assume this much about the place) and we already know he ran into one thing they couldn't handle before he even got inside the dungeon. Make no mistake, Ardon is only alive (and only likely to reach Dire at all) because he lucked out big time.

Also as far as "they don't know Ardon is evil" (not you, but someone else said it) how is killing an unconscious sentient being because of something he might do while effectively mind controlled less evil than what the paladins are saying? True they don't know Ardon is evil, but they certainly have cause to suspect. Even then that is more a footnote in their reasoning than anything else.

Of course, with all this said, Ell may convince them yet (and mostly I don't fault them either way). I am not discounting that possibility. I know that Ardon is not going to die, but there is no way he is taking out Dire by himself without a major Deus Ex Machina.

[The Mormegil]

He chastised her for defending herself. Should people use non-lethal damage every single time they're attacked just in case the attacker happens to be mind controlled without their knowledge? That's a ridiculous position to take.

Just a quick note: it's not a ridiculous position. It's what is expected in our society at the very least. You don't kill people for being aggressed upon unless you have no other choice. You don't make your own justice. We have tribunals and prisons for murderers too.

[Lizard Lord]

Just a quick note: it's not a ridiculous position. It's what is expected in our society at the very least. You don't kill people for being aggressed upon unless you have no other choice. You don't make your own justice. We have tribunals and prisons for murderers too.

Not to mention she was chastised for not realizing they were mind controlled despite the fact that she had the means to see they weren't zombies.

[Metahuman1]

In fairness to the guy, based on the latest strip, they've had 20+ years of thinking Dire makes it a point to always make it impossible to oppose him with out doing something evil/letting something bad happen somewhere to some one. And this if it didn't start with at least had the point made early on by him (as far as they know.) taking there daughter form them.

[Anteros]

Just a quick note: it's not a ridiculous position. It's what is expected in our society at the very least. You don't kill people for being aggressed upon unless you have no other choice. You don't make your own justice. We have tribunals and prisons for murderers too.

Our society also doesn't hire random adventurers and mercenaries to solve our problems. Applying the modern morality of a first world nation to a feudal society doesn't work.

Even if we did want to use modern morals, we don't put people in jail for self defense. Where I live, legally, all you need to employ lethal means of self defense is for the other party to show aggression and for you to feel that you are in danger. Considering that El was under the impression that a single bite from the infected would lead to death, and they were actively trying to bite her, her response was appropriate.

It's not like she had the benefit of examining a docile or unconscious version of the infected. They were actively trying to kill her and her friends.

In fairness to the guy, based on the latest strip, they've had 20+ years of thinking Dire makes it a point to always make it impossible to oppose him with out doing something evil/letting something bad happen somewhere to some one. And this if it didn't start with at least had the point made early on by him (as far as they know.) taking there daughter form them.

You mean they have 20 years of taking the easy road and justifying their own actions. We have only their own word that Dire does such a thing, and considering how quick they are to take the easy road...I'm not inclined to trust their judgment.

[Lord Raziere]

You mean they have 20 years of taking the easy road and justifying their own actions. We have only their own word that Dire does such a thing, and considering how quick they are to take the easy road...I'm not inclined to trust their judgment.

Either that, or they once were better, and that Dire constantly wore them down with such situations, making them gradually put in a little less effort, gradually making them surrender one thing after another over those twenty years, until finally he makes them do something completely evil by attrition, pushing them to the final edge.

which would be a good plan if the villain was obsessed with them only and this was 3.5 where that would mean the paladin would fall and he would then be able to kill the paladin after manipulating him into breaking his own code, but this is 4e. the only thing that happens if they break their own code here is that the color of their magic changes and that is it, at best. paladin powers are not granted by deities in 4e, but by certain divine pure-fluff rituals, and the power cannot be taken away once given. the corebook mentioned something about being punished by other members of their faith if they deviate too far, but I don't really see that happening when the paladin is adventuring around out in the wilderness with long periods of time away from their temples. meaning 4e paladins can probably do whatever they want as long as they don't get seen doing it.

but then again, the author isn't bound by the rules here, he might decide in this world, that sort of ploy does indeed work, who knows.

[Lizard Lord]

Alright I think Ell has a point sort of. Letting other more experienced adventurers handle things is exactly what they were telling "Ardon's Army" to do. Yet they couldn't do it when they had a daughter to raise? Ell's parents are hypocrites.

[Anteros]

Either that, or they once were better, and that Dire constantly wore them down with such situations, making them gradually put in a little less effort, gradually making them surrender one thing after another over those twenty years, until finally he makes them do something completely evil by attrition, pushing them to the final edge.

which would be a good plan if the villain was obsessed with them only and this was 3.5 where that would mean the paladin would fall and he would then be able to kill the paladin after manipulating him into breaking his own code, but this is 4e. the only thing that happens if they break their own code here is that the color of their magic changes and that is it, at best. paladin powers are not granted by deities in 4e, but by certain divine pure-fluff rituals, and the power cannot be taken away once given. the corebook mentioned something about being punished by other members of their faith if they deviate too far, but I don't really see that happening when the paladin is adventuring around out in the wilderness with long periods of time away from their temples. meaning 4e paladins can probably do whatever they want as long as they don't get seen doing it.

but then again, the author isn't bound by the rules here, he might decide in this world, that sort of ploy does indeed work, who knows.

Yeah, I acknowledged earlier that all of these arguments are somewhat irrelevant since this is set in 4E. I don't think he should fall for his actions anyway, even if it was 3.5. I just think that for someone who is so quick to lecture others about "what a paladin should be", he doesn't seem to have a very good grasp of the class concept.

[Macros]

Ok, I'll admit : I'm enjoying the in-comic argument way more than I should.

...

... I'm a horrible person.

[Lord Raziere]

ooooooh, Ell just gave them a lecture that makes it clear that she is a better paladin than BOTH of them. Darn Ell, get this girl a drink of holy water, its not everyday a paladin gets to give a lecture about responsibility to her own parents! this is hilarious.

[Lizard Lord]

ooooooh, Ell just gave them a lecture that makes it clear that she is a better paladin than BOTH of them. Darn Ell, get this girl a drink of holy water, its not everyday a paladin gets to give a lecture about responsibility to her own parents! this is hilarious.

This isn't a lecture about being a paladin. It is a lecture about being a parent.

[Lord Raziere]

This isn't a lecture about being a paladin. It is a lecture about being a parent.

I didn't say that it was a lecture about being a paladin. its a lecture about responsibility. That applies to both. you just assumed I was talking about being a paladin, which I did not say. the fact that she must make it to her two parents, who SHOULD know all about responsibility because they're paladins, is what is hilarious.

[stsasser]

Good to see Nadine step up to her responsibilities to her party, flawed though it may be.

[Anteros]

It's good to see Erald actually relinquish the sword upon request. You'd think he'd be more concerned about his only daughter heading off to certain doom than the is about losing the sword though. Surely they won't actually let her go without them?

[Metahuman1]

Watch em. There horrible horrible parents and they SUCK as Paladin's in anything except optimization's sense.


And he didn't give it, he had to be told to do it repeatedly as he made excuses before he finally relented under the realization that he's a horrible person who sucks at every job he's ever held.

[Anteros]

I don't think offering to buy the sword was completely unreasonable. At least he eventually gave it up.

I don't actually think he's a bad person or anything either. He's just not as good a person as he believes himself to be.

[Metahuman1]

Which feeds into his Cardinal Sins. Arrogance beyond reason (this being the first time he's ever really had that shoved naked in his face in a manner that doesn't let him use big words to make it out to be something else.) and Flaming Hypocrisy so thick you could punch it a 5ft square from his mouth.



He's a horrible horrible parent. He's a rather bad Paladin on the whole. And sadly, those two things are the big defining things in his life right now. The only other thing you could argue is being married to a woman who has he exact same two glaring flaws.


True he gave the sword up, but only because he was not just having his face rubbed in his issues, he had his face rubbed in it while they were covered in shattered glass, salt, sulfur and Iodine. And even then only after a display he clearly thinks is perfectly fine for him to give, but would NEVER have tolerated form someone else, particularly if they had levels in any holy themed classes, especially Paladin. Topping that off, he seriously low balled the price of an artifact to her.




As an aside, we found out how she was gonna not end up going with the SoS and how Ardon get's out of them having him hanged when this arc is over. The SoS turned out to be bastards who we can reasonably expect won't be showing up again. Though now I wonder how there gonna manage to deal with Ardon's Dad.

[Anteros]

I think you're jumping the gun quite a bit. I doubt we're anywhere near being done with them.

[Neoriceisgood]

So conflicted here, digging El's comeback but ... Ardon ugh.

[Emperor Time]

Not sure it a good idea to bring Odivallus along in his current condition. Since he can't really do anything but walk around and bite at the moment.

[Metahuman1]

En, never know, they may find a way to capitalize on that.

[Emperor Time]

That true. Maybe there a chance he is not immune to it himself. And becomes a dummy as well.