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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Lizardfolk

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    Default Ability Score Adjustments (3.P/4e/Next)

    Ability Score Adjustments

    • +2 Class Training (This is set by the class and is a choice between two or three ability scores)

    • +2 Background Training (May be broken up into two separate +1s)

    • +1 Advancement (Obtained at Level 4, 8, 12, 16, 20)


    The bonus from Class Training doesnít stack with Background Training but the bonus from Advancement stacks with all other bonuses. These bonuses are untyped.

    Note: I absolutely hate that race determines your ability scores. Seriously, if a Halfling lived his entire life sitting on a couch eating chips and doing jack squattery then for some reason that Halfing still gets a bonus to dex... Yeah...

    I think something with a Class Bonus, Background Bonus, and Advancement Bonus would work nicely to simulate character development (ability scores) a bit better.

    The Background Training also gives the option to split a +2 up into two +1s. This means getting odd scores when you roll or point buy isn't as painful (waiting till level 4 to upgrade)

    So at level one everyone gains a +2 to one ability score and +2 to another ability score OR +2 to one ability score and +1 to two other ability scores. So +2/+2 or +2/+1/+1

    Class Bonuses (these can be changed, just an example)

    Fighter: +2 Strength or +2 Dexterity
    Barbarian: +2 Strength or +2 Constitution
    Cleric: +2 Wisdom or +2 Strength
    Druid: +2 Wisdom or +2 Constitution
    Wizard: +2 Intelligence or +2 Dexterity
    Sorcerer: +2 Charisma or +2 Constitution

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Troll in the Playground
     
    Yakk's Avatar

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    Default Re: Ability Score Adjustments (3.P/4e/Next)

    An easy approach:

    Your Class, Race and Background all have Prime attributes.

    At level 1, you gain +2 to two Prime attributes of your choice, and +1 to the remaining.

    In 3e, this mainly benefits MAD classes. Benefiting MAD classes is not a problem.

    In 4e, it breaks race/class ties.

    Amusingly, it means playing "against type" gives more bonuses than playing with type. (a halfling with primes of Dex and Cha playing a Battlerager with primes of Str and Con with a Sage background (primes of wis and int) gets +1 to all stats, and +2 to two stats of choice). Which is a bit of a quirk.

    So maybe +1 to the remaining isn't a good idea.

    Hmm.

    So how about you get class (1-3?), race (1-2) and background (1) primes. If you have 2 or more primes in the same stat, you get a +2. If you get 1, you get a +1.

    So you can guarantee a +2 in your main stat by picking a background regardless of your race.

    Some classes might have fewer primes, like wizards getting only int and clerics getting only wis, for minor balance reasons. Others might get lots (maybe monks have all stats prime?)

    Now this doesn't work all that well in 3e with its multiclassing rules, as for the most part a fighter then wizard should be similar to a wizard then fighter, but what ya gonna do?

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Troll in the Playground
     
    Belial_the_Leveler's Avatar

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    Default Re: Ability Score Adjustments (3.P/4e/Next)

    A cat that spends the whole day sleeping on a couch may have less dexterity than a very active cat but it will still have more dexterity than most humans.
    A horse spends a greater part of its life in inactivity than a typical human but is still stronger than any man.

    The same is true of the various DnD races. The racial bonuses represent different ranges of ability. I.e. elves have dexterity range of 10-20 while humans have dexterity range of 8-18. This pretty accurately reflects what one would expect from racial differences.



    In short, just because you don't like something doesn't make it wrong.


    If all you have is a hammer, don't be lazy; be a blacksmith and start making more stuff.

  4. - Top - End - #4
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Lizardfolk

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    Default Re: Ability Score Adjustments (3.P/4e/Next)

    Quote Originally Posted by Belial_the_Leveler View Post
    A cat that spends the whole day sleeping on a couch may have less dexterity than a very active cat but it will still have more dexterity than most humans.
    A horse spends a greater part of its life in inactivity than a typical human but is still stronger than any man.

    The same is true of the various DnD races. The racial bonuses represent different ranges of ability. I.e. elves have dexterity range of 10-20 while humans have dexterity range of 8-18. This pretty accurately reflects what one would expect from racial differences.



    In short, just because you don't like something doesn't make it wrong.
    You are comparing apples to... Nazi oranges.

    Cats are not huamnoids in D&D, sure if they have different stats that is fine.

    But each race of humanoid are like different breed of cats in the real world. They are related enough to mate and have offspring that then can mate but there are slight differences.

    Whereas Elves are white Persian fancy cats and Humans are like mutt tabby/calico cats. They all have different personalities but their abilities are generally the same. If you make a cat fat it will not be able to keep up with the other breeds in terms of dexterity.

    Monstrous Races are a bit different. They aren't humanoids and can have some bonuses that are set. They are monstrous for a reason. A lion would be a monstrous race in our cat explanation. The lion is stronger and can jump further and may look like the housecats (general form) but they aren't the same even for generalities.

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Troll in the Playground
     
    Belial_the_Leveler's Avatar

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    Default Re: Ability Score Adjustments (3.P/4e/Next)

    My sister got a Persian cat that weighed 5 pounds. It mated with a mutt tabby that weighed 20 pounds. I am fairly sure they didn't have anywhere near the same strength and dexterity scores in DnD terms. I am also fairly sure they were genetically compatible since the result was four kittens. Differences in dogs are even greater than in domesticated cats.


    Being related enough to have fertile offspring makes you the same species, not the same race. And races can have significantly different ability scores and well as looks. If they didn't, they wouldn't be different races.


    If all you have is a hammer, don't be lazy; be a blacksmith and start making more stuff.

  6. - Top - End - #6
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Lizardfolk

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    Default Re: Ability Score Adjustments (3.P/4e/Next)

    Quote Originally Posted by Belial_the_Leveler View Post
    My sister got a Persian cat that weighed 5 pounds. It mated with a mutt tabby that weighed 20 pounds. I am fairly sure they didn't have anywhere near the same strength and dexterity scores in DnD terms. I am also fairly sure they were genetically compatible since the result was four kittens. Differences in dogs are even greater than in domesticated cats.


    Being related enough to have fertile offspring makes you the same species, not the same race. And races can have significantly different ability scores and well as looks. If they didn't, they wouldn't be different races.
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    Yeah and I had a Persian that was 15 lbs and somehow kept sleeping on top of a door. Still have no clue how she got up there but whatever. Props to her though, she learned to open and shut doors while my 16 year old sister constantly ran into them and never learned to shut them behind her... I wish that was a joke (there was nothing wrong with, she was clumsy and never took the time to shut doors).

    All humanoids in D&D are the same species. From there we have the different races (btw a lot of the terms are mingled together in D&D... Because using Race to begin with was how they wanted to do it). In real life if you took two races (subspecies technically but whatever) and put them in groups you would have a vastly larger difference in genetics within each group than you do between the two groups.

    What you are saying is that Elves and Humans share such drastic differences that it shows by racially giving the elves a +2 to Dex. However taking logic from how races (sub species) work in real life... One elf will genetically be different from another elf more so than the difference between a group of elves and a group of humans. So on average every race will be equal on each ability score since each will have their populations of high scores and low scores.

    So when it comes down to it, genetics doesn't play as big of a role in what a race can do. Environmental factors such as schooling, home life, hobbies, and jobs will factor in so much more when it comes to ability scores (str, dex, con, int, wis, cha).

    You can argue all you want but i'm done with this.

    Besides, mechanically for a Fantasy RPG Tabletop Game it works out so much better if races aren't forced into certain roles. The game is Fantasy for a reason, why shouldn't a Halfling be able to be stronger than nimble? Because someone wants to limit another person's fantasy character? Blah, I don't have the right to make a system or game or whatever that punishes players for wanting to make an awesome fantasy character based on concept.

    "Strength Based Halfling Monk" should be as viable as "Strength based HalfOrc Monk" because this is a fantasy game and not a simulation of real life... Or else there would be no magic and all wizards would be rogues with sleight of hand and bluff.


    I talked to some others and they suggested that along with my current set up of +2 Prime (I like that word Yakk, I think I'll use it), +2 Background (can be broken up to two +1's) they think that giving up a +2 for a bonus feat would work.

    I'm leaning on agreeing for 3.P/4e but not so Mich with Next (the yummy yummy macrofeats). It got me thinking... What else could someone give up a +2 for in the editions.

    Give up your background training to obtain...

    Bonus Feat

    Good Saving Throw Progression: Net gain on the saving thow but you will lose out on other abilities. (3.P)

    Bonus to racial power (4e) (racial powers should be changed to background powers... An Eladrin that grew up with dwarves may have never knew he could teleport)

    Bonus skill points (2 + Int Mod to 4 + Int Mod, etc...) (3.P)

    Bonus Class Skill (4e)

    (I love Next's way of gaining skills... Not so much 3.P and 4e)

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