play or not to play

[AMFV]

Don't be stupid and deliberately misconstrue things in an effort to be 'clever' and put down the OP. No one is saying you need to psychically determine who is undesirable to play with, but the number of threads on this forum alone indicate that there are plenty of people in the world who, for some reason, continue to play with people who basically ruin their game and their fun. And they don't need any psychic powers to figure that out.

It's mostly because they would rather try to work the game to where it's fun for everybody rather than find new friends. And I don't think you can fault them for that.

[Airk]

It's mostly because they would rather try to work the game to where it's fun for everybody rather than find new friends. And I don't think you can fault them for that.

No, you probably can't, but that doesn't mean it's not legitimate to ASK why the tolerate these people when they are clearly ruining their games. Without being accused of "LOL, do you think I have psychic powers?"

That's just being rude.

[AMFV]

No, you probably can't, but that doesn't mean it's not legitimate to ASK why the tolerate these people when they are clearly ruining their games. Without being accused of "LOL, do you think I have psychic powers?"

That's just being rude.

Which I think was clarified as a language mistake, what is considered rude varies drastically from culture to culture. So what may have been intended one way was received another.

[Devils_Advocate]

But Airk, no such accusation was made. AuraTwilight was just glib about the fact that one obvious reason one might be gaming with a problem player is because one didn't realize it was a problem player.

And equally glib about the fact that one may not be in full tyrannical control of the composition of one's gaming group, yet you don't seem to have a problem with that point.

[Airk]

English isn't my first language, but thanks for assuming the absolute worst of me and also insulting my intelligence. That's very mature of you.

Shall I now claim that I would have needed psychic powers to determine that you're not a native english speaker? Would that be the 'polite' thing to do here?

That being said, my point is valid. Some of us don't have the social luxury of cutting people out of games once they've started, either because it's their house, or I'm not the GM, or they're a friend and the scenario is "Friends do Activity" not "Activity is being done, find Friends."

Where did I argue with this point? My entire issue is with you belittling the OP.

Or, you know, it's just kind of an assholish thing to do in some people's opinions to cut them out of a game after the fact because you dislike how they choose to enjoy the game. It's a pretty rude bait-and-switch.

Wait. So if someone enjoys playing monopoly by stealing money from other players when they're not looking, it's an "assholish" thing to not play monopoly with him anymore?

It is NOT a "bait and switch" to say "You're not playing the same game as everyone else, please go home?"

I REJECT your assertion that's somehow inappropriate to not play games with people who don't enjoy those games the way you do, especially when the conflict of enjoyment causes less enjoyment for everyone.

So no. The only valid point you have is the one no one is arguing.

But I'm sorry you feel insulted. I probably singled you out unfairly as this whole thread has been full of people making what I feel are unnecessarily snide responses to a fairly reasonable question.

[erikun]

Thank you guys for all your inputs. to answer some of your questions. I do GM and I love doing it. I do play occassionally. I like the RPing aspect of our hobby. charactor developement and background that make them interesting.

Well then, congratulations. I have a difficult time trying to get a good group together, so it's nice to hear that you have one and it works for your gaming tastes.

I hope you get to play often.

my point is is you have a guys that throws dice books and tables cause something happened to his PC, or someone ignores the game while it is not his turn then you have to explain the last 20 minutes to him, or has to look up every single thing where it is not fun to game. why have that person in your group?

This, I think, is the real problem.

It's not an issue with munchkins or powergamers. It's not an issue with Mary Sues. It's not an issue with people preferring other aspects of gameplay.

It's an issue with someone showing up for a social activity, and then ignoring it for disruptive actions. It doesn't matter much if you're sitting down to play a RPG, or playing a video game, or watching a movie, or playing a sport. Having one person stop everything to talk on a celphone and then request everyone else to accommodate them is just rude.

As for why we put up with that? Sometimes due to lack of players. Sometimes due to not being able to kick someone out. Most frequently, I've found it's due to wanting to see the player improve, and so spending time with them despite their annoyances. However, if someone is being disruptive like that, they can simply be told to not show up until they're ready to pay attention to the game again.

[Devils_Advocate]

Shall I now claim that I would have needed psychic powers to determine that you're not a native english speaker? Would that be the 'polite' thing to do here?

AuraTwilight didn't SAY anything about psychic powers! BrokenChord made a lighthearted JOKE about that and now you're attributing to someone something that that person never posted.

this whole thread has been full of people making what I feel are unnecessarily snide responses to a fairly reasonable question.

NEWS FLASH: People are responding rudely to the OP because the OP was rudely phrased!

First off, Talos used some derogatory terms for valuing character achievement, the Rules As Written, and/or getting attention under the explicit assumption that most readers aren't into that sort of stuff and just want a nice game where you can pretend to be a dwarf purely for the sake of pretending to be a dwarf. Which is a perfectly legitimate preference, but that's a ridiculous assumption to make about a group composed largely players of Dungeons & Dragons.

Secondly, the command form is, as a rule, coarse at best. "Have a nice day" is of course acceptable. "Have a Merry Christmas" is actually getting borderline. "politely ask them not to play" is asking for less than pleasant responses. That is what you're puttin' out the bait for when you tell people what to do, most of the time.

And how exactly does one politely ask someone not to play? "I cordially invite you to GTFO"? At the very least, I would think that the answer to "why is this so hard?" is obvious. Assuming that one is actually trying to be polite.

I'm not yet entirely sure that Talos doesn't think you should boot someone from your game the moment that you begin to feel less than entertained as a result of that player's actions. Of course, you could say it's obvious that no one would have such an extreme stance. But similarly, it's equally obvious that no one would hold the position that no player should ever be kicked out, no matter how disruptive. And yet you seem to be ignoring that in your response to AuraTwilight.

Furthermore? YOU have been the primary escalator of hostility in this discussion. Referring to someone's post as "being stupid" was considerably flamier than anything posted before that, and now you're repeatedly harping on something (a "psychic powers" crack directed at the OP) that never actually happened.

No one else has injected as much vitriol into this thread. Except possibly me, with this post.

<3<

[AuraTwilight]

Shall I now claim that I would have needed psychic powers to determine that you're not a native english speaker? Would that be the 'polite' thing to do here?

I never said anything about psychic powers. Reading comprehension, along with giving people the benefit of the doubt ("is this person stupid or did he make bad word choice?") are both important social skills.

Social skills being what you'd need to apply when you're solving a social problem such as gaming preferences, mind you.

You know what would've been polite? Asking someone if you have doubts about their comprehension. "Er, did you forget the OP said [stuff]?"

Where did I argue with this point? My entire issue is with you belittling the OP.

I didn't belittle the OP; but you did belittle me and my point by insinuating otherwise, because it's inherently dismissive of the things I've said to reword them into an insult the way you did. I was answering the OP by giving a concise explanation of why 'this is so hard' for people like me, and then I elaborated in my second post in the thread.

Wait. So if someone enjoys playing monopoly by stealing money from other players when they're not looking, it's an "assholish" thing to not play monopoly with him anymore?

It's an 'assholish' thing to remove friends from an activity so you can enjoy it when the whole point of having the activity in the first place was to spend time with your friends.

But I'm sorry you feel insulted. I probably singled you out unfairly as this whole thread has been full of people making what I feel are unnecessarily snide responses to a fairly reasonable question.

Maybe you should read the things I say, next time, and not the things you want to argue against? You literally talked over me and what I had to say by conflating me with BrokenChord's joke. You've been a jerk to me entirely unfairly.

I didn't attack you or anyone else. You're behaving like a troll. Kindly sod off and mind your own business if you don't like what people have to say. It's not your job to police people's opinions.

EDIT:

Which I think was clarified as a language mistake, what is considered rude varies drastically from culture to culture. So what may have been intended one way was received another.

To add on to this person's point, YES. I'll clarify that I was raised in Japan. The mere notion of excluding an acquaintance out of personal preference isn't just rude, it's seen as arrogant. I'm not in charge of my group of friends. I'm not the boss or the king of what we do or how we should do it. The sort of behavior Airk or Talos is expecting me to have is culturally equivalent to bullying a person. We value swallowing the individual's preferences for the sake of the group, and if the group doesn't speak up in consensus, nothing can/should be done about the issue politely.

[dps]

Wait. So if someone enjoys playing monopoly by stealing money from other players when they're not looking, it's an "assholish" thing to not play monopoly with him anymore?

It is NOT a "bait and switch" to say "You're not playing the same game as everyone else, please go home?"

Dang big difference between outright cheating and preferring a different style of play.

[mephnick]

Try living outside of a major centre, or have most of your geeky friends move away. I put up with the group I can manage to scrounge up or I don't play at all. Ever. For the rest of my life.

Not everyone has the luxury of going through some city roster and cherry-picking the best people you can find.

[Jay R]

Wait. So if someone enjoys playing monopoly by stealing money from other players when they're not looking, it's an "assholish" thing to not play monopoly with him anymore?

If you had used this example from the start, we'd have agreed with you. If somebody is cheating at D&D, yes, I would ask him to leave the table. Absolutely.

But the original question was about people playing by the rules, but enjoying different aspects of the game at different levels of intensity than you do. That's not stealing or cheating.

It is NOT a "bait and switch" to say "You're not playing the same game as everyone else, please go home?"

Airk, you started with the assumption that most people want to play exactly like you do. Many of us question this assumption. If it were true, the problem would come up much less often than it does.

I REJECT your assertion that's somehow inappropriate to not play games with people who don't enjoy those games the way you do, especially when the conflict of enjoyment causes less enjoyment for everyone.

Oh, I agree with you to some extent. I believe the people who like getting along with others even when there are differences in play style should choose not to play with people who want to force everyone to play in the same style.

... this whole thread has been full of people making what I feel are unnecessarily snide responses to a fairly reasonable question.

They aren't snide responses. They are emotional reactions inspired by your initial emotional reaction. Terms like "mary sue's, munchkins, powergamers, rule lawyers, and professional PIA's" are not reasonable, but emotional. Nothing wrong with that, but your emotional response breeds other emotional reactions.

That's fine, and maybe we should all recognize that we sometimes get a little too emotional.

So at my table, I try to tone down the power gamer, or level the big guns at him. I prepare character sheets for the two friends who like playing but don't want to get too involved in the rules minutiae, work out character-driven plots for the deepest role-player, argue rules carefully with the guy who tries to use them to his advantage, and try to give the guy who likes PvP a constant in-character reason to support the party.

And yes, if somebody cheated, I would kick him out. And I would never characterize the cheater as similar to a power gamer, rules lawyer, or anybody else who is playing the game by the rules.