Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground LV

[Fax Celestis]

This seems to run contrary to the fact that it is used as Alter Self, which explicitly grants movement modes, natural armor and natural attacks of the granted form. If it was cosmetic only, wouldn't it be based off if Disguise Self instead?

Because terrible editing, quite honestly. I really think the designer meant to put in disguise self instead of alter self (I know I've made that mixup in my head).

Alter Ego (Sp): Starting at 3rd level, you establish an alternate identity. This alter ego has its own distinct physical characteristics, quirks, preferred clothing, and so on. At will, you can switch your form between that of your normal identity and that of your alter ego. This ability works like the alter self spell, except that you can assume only the appearance of your alternate identity. Your caster level for this ability is equal to your mountebank class level.

As you advance in this prestige class, you develop additional alter egos, gaining a new one every three levels beyond 3rd (two at 6th and three at 9th).

[dysprosium]

Oh those writers at WotC!

They've done it again!

My hypothesis is that whoever wrote that particular line was thinking of the 3.0 alter self which more or less acted liked disguise self. Otherwise it makes no sense to reference alter self at all--as Piggy pointed out.

In 3.5 disguise self can be disbelieved as it is an illusion. It seems to me the intent was to make the alter ego not an illusion so it could not be disbelieved. Thus only being able to assume an appearance of a different race. It would look like you could have claws but they would be non functional, since they are really not claws--pretty much what Fax Celestis said earlier.

Edit: pretty much swordsaged there . . .

[Piggy Knowles]

Right, what I'm saying is that there are two ways you can parse that bolded sentence.

The first is as you've parsed it: it works like Alter Self, except that unlike Alter Self, you don't get the actual form of your alter ego - you only get the appearance.

The second is that it works like Alter Self, but unlike Alter Self, you can't pick any form - you only get the appearance of your alter ego.

I've got no qualms with our esteemed Chairman ruling for either potential reading, but I want to make sure we've all got a level playing field.

EDIT:

In 3.5 disguise self can be disbelieved as it is an illusion. It seems to me the intent was to make the alter ego not an illusion so it could not be disbelieved.

Fair point, although the changeling and egoist abilities still reference Disguise Self and yet are not illusory.

Also, I'm mostly arguing for clarification - I fully understand that the ability could be taken either way. I've got a build concept for either interpretation right now, so I don't really have a horse in this race.

[Kuulvheysoon]

Right, what I'm saying is that there are two ways you can parse that bolded sentence.

The first is as you've parsed it: it works like Alter Self, except that unlike Alter Self, you don't get the actual form of your alter ego - you only get the appearance.

The second is that it works like Alter Self, but unlike Alter Self, you can't pick any form - you only get the appearance of your alter ego.

I've got no qualms with our esteemed Chairman ruling for either potential reading, but I want to make sure we've all got a level playing field.

I would read it as the second reading - RAW, it quite explicitly states 'as alter self'. It's entirely possible that they meant to say disguise self, but at the end of the day, they didn't (for whatever reason).

Piggy, would we be reading it the same if it was rephrased as "as alter self, but only a single unique form per Alter Ego"?

[Kazudo]

"as alter self, but only a single unique form per Alter Ego"?

That's how I read it.

[relytdan]

interesting selection I will look and decide whether to judge or build ..

[Amphetryon]

That awkward moment when you realize a single detail makes your entire build concept invalid.

[Tim Proctor]

That awkward moment when you realize a single detail makes your entire build concept invalid.

You're trying to go Gnome Slimelord Mountebank too? It's gnot speculation because it's always Slimelord.

[Amphetryon]

You're trying to go Gnome Slimelord Mountebank too? It's gnot speculation because it's always Slimelord.

Gmountebank Gniant Gslayer.

[Kazudo]

And now, I can offer my criteria BEFORE the reveal!

My Judging Criteria:

Spoiler: Originality

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Originality:
This appears to be a somewhat cut and dry section at first, but can be pretty tricky as some of the competitions have made apparent. Therefore, I will go ahead and advise that all builds will be considered when dealing with this category. Originality is such a relative concept. I will only deduct for "unoriginal builds" being defined by a rising trend (specifically three or more competitors). That being said, I'd like to point out the following things as far as my judging are concerned.
1. Using the same number of levels in the same class as another competitor will not necessarily garner a point deduction unless there is a trend.
2. Using the same tactic as another competitor will not necessarily garner a point deduction unless, again, there is a trend.
3. Using the same racial combination as another competitor will, barring incredibly similar looking somewhat complex combinations, not necessarily garner a point deduction unless there is a trend.

This list is not exhaustive, but merely a guideline.

Spoiler: Power

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Power:
This is again a section that should be simple but is very complex due to the nature of the game and competition. Therefore, my stance on this will be to compare to other characters in the same party dynamic as the individual in question. Party dynamic here is, again, a relative term. I don't have a specific party in mind to compare to, however if the build is presented, for example, as a sneak attack rogue, I will compare its power and effectiveness to that of other sneak attack rogues regardless of whether the build has any levels in rogue or, say, substitutes sneak attack for sudden strike or other similar game mechanics. I will not be judging competitors' builds against each other for this category, but will be considering each entrant separate.

Spoiler: Elegance

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Elegance:
This one is special. It's not cut and dry, and will be used in the most careful way possible. When dealing with this specific category, I will be considering each entrant separate. This category will be used to determine how relatively well the build flows together. As in my originality statement above, I will point out a few examples.
1. Dipping classes (dipping defined as two levels or fewer for the purpose of gaining a special ability or skillset) may not necessarily garner a point deduction unless there appears to be no connecting fluff to ensure it meshes well with the remaining build.
2. Use of certain elements such as known cheese, template stacking, variant rules (such as LA buyoff) may not necessarily garner a point deduction unless it violates any of my own personal concepts of sanity checks or any other point in this criteria.
3. Awkward placement of classes in the progression may not garner a point deduction if there is connecting fluff.

Again, this list is not exhaustive but merely a guideline.

Spoiler: Use of Secret Ingredient

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Use of Secret Ingredient:
This one is very simple. If the ingredient is used as the primary focus of the build, it will score well. If it does not, then it simply won't. Merely utilizing every level of the Secret Ingredient does not immediately make it the primary focus of the build. Synergy must be present in order to score well in this area. Each build will be judged separately. There is an important caveat to this though: should one build fully exemplify synergy and UoSI, it may subconsciously be used as a benchmark for other builds. I apologize if this happens, but this is simply because I may not have ever seen the Secret Ingredient used firsthand and might have very little in the way of a personal benchmark to compare to.

Spoiler: Fluff v Crunch

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On the subject of fluff versus crunch: I do not require any form of excessive backstory, nor does the entry have to be submitted with any kind of accompanying narrative. However, fluff and description are indispensable tools to helping me see the character as you envision it while creating it. I reference that crunch penalties may not be crunch penalties if smoothed over with appropriate levels of fluff. This does not mean that excessively long fluff entries will be additionally penalized or will have penalties ignored, simply that a crunch penalty may, in fact, not be a crunch penalty if presented with fluff to connect everything together. Sorry if I appear confusing, but it was the easiest way I could explain the notion.

In addition, any additional explanation you feel is necessary for your character presentation is always welcome. I don't expect to have the build spoonfed to me as one would an infant or first time player, however assuming that I can draw the same conclusions you did during your cooking would be unwise as evidenced by at least one judge in every competition. If you're banking on me making an assumption, explain it anyway. Worst comes to worse, you'll have punched a few extra keys and made a few extra lines of text.

[Kuulvheysoon]

Curmudgeon can weigh in on this

A 221

This ability has been updated (slightly) in the Complete Scoundrel Errata file, without the designers seeing a necessity to change the word which is the source of your confusion: "appearance". "Form" is a synonym of "appearance" (reference here). Appearance meaning "semblance" is recorded from early 15c.; that of "visible state or form" from late 14c. (reference here); the more-inclusive definition (qualities of the form beyond mere semblance) is actually of slightly longer standing.

Because English treats "form" and "appearance" as synonyms, and I can find no D&D citation giving a more restricted meaning (equivalent to the difference between Disguise Self and Alter Self, say), there is no RAW basis for "only the appearance" to be treated differently than if it said "only the form" in the Mountebank's Alter Ego ability. Alter Ego works like Alter Self, but limited to only a single appearance/form at levels 3-5 of this PrC.

Nice to see how close my reading is to RAW.

[Darrin]

Curmudgeon can weigh in on thisNice to see how close my reading is to RAW.

So... just to be clear, "appearance" of claws = claw attacks/damage, and "appearance" of wings = fly speed?

[Deadline]

I've got a couple of ideas for this, we'll see if I can peel off the time to do them up right this time.

[Shinken]

Ooooh I'm interested.

[Eldonauran]

... I have a rather flavorful idea.

I'm in as a competitor.

[KrimsonNekros]

I think I've got a nice build figured. I'm in as a competitor.

[Ikeren]

I'm in the mood for some optimization. I think I'll submit a build.

[Kazudo]

So... just to be clear, "appearance" of claws = claw attacks/damage, and "appearance" of wings = fly speed?

Within the limits of Alter Self, as I understand it.

[Sian]

Am I going to be hated if i submit a build that can do anything the Prestige class can do, as well or better, without the prestige class?

[Tim Proctor]

You mean like Lvl 20 Wizard?

[Kazudo]

Am I going to be hated if i submit a build that can do anything the Prestige class can do, as well or better, without the prestige class?

You'll definitely get points in originality. I'm pretty sure everyone else is using Mountebank.

[Sian]

You mean like Lvl 20 Wizard?

Nah, merely having similar of better of everything that the prestige class have :)

You'll definitely get points in originality. I'm pretty sure everyone else is using Mountebank.

Mountebank / Mountebank?

[Tim Proctor]

Nah, merely having similar of better of everything that the prestige class have :)



Mountebank / Mountebank?

I'm fairly sure that the Zinc Saucier is the competition that does exactly that and you'd get hated out for not taking the SI here. But if you do do it now, since we've talked about it we'll know who it is and therefore get a RtJ anyways.

[Sian]

I know that Zinc Saucier is the propper place for it ... i 'merely' stumbled over a build idea that perfectly mimics the SI, without actually having it.

[Kazudo]

and therefore get a RtJ anyways.

Not from me. However, a 0 in UoSI would probably result.

Sian's just kiddin' though. Right?

...Right?

That being said, this is actually a really interesting SI. I mean, it's no Slime Lord or Gnome Giant Slayer, but it's definitely a fun one. I've had some interesting ideas with combining [redacted] and, get this. Instead of taking [redacted], I'd [redacted] some [redacted] and cross into [redacted] while [redacted] to make a really interesting [redacted].

But I'm judging, not competing.

[Tim Proctor]

It breaks the first rule of the competition.

Here in Optimization Colosseum, contestants will endeavor to create an optimized and flavorful character using a specified D&D3.5 prestige class as a "Secret Ingredient".

The builds must use the prestige class in the build.

[Kazudo]

It breaks the first rule of the competition.



The builds must use the prestige class in the build.

While I agree, if anyone WERE to endeavor to submit a build (for the first time in the contest's history, might I add) that included none of the Secret Ingredient, and our chairman does decide to post it in that fact, then I'll go by sheer logic in saying that it fails to use the SI at all, and gets a 0. Then I'll judge the build in the other three categories.

RTJ caused issues, and I refuse to refuse to judge.

[Deadline]

RTJ caused issues, and I refuse to refuse to judge.

This is a can of worms you probably don't want to open.

Spoiler: Some arguments against refusing to RtJ

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Because what happens if the build scores #1? Should it be prevented from placing, as it didn't follow the rules of the contest? Isn't your solution a bit like awarding the first place medal to a racer who didn't run the course (i.e., it's a 10K course, and this person started at the finish line, walked a few feet, then walked around the finish line and crossed it)? Etc., etc.

Long story short, refusing to refuse to judge also causes issues.

[Kazudo]

This is a can of worms you probably don't want to open.

Spoiler: Some arguments against refusing to RtJ

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Because what happens if the build scores #1? Should it be prevented from placing, as it didn't follow the rules of the contest? Isn't your solution a bit like awarding the first place medal to a racer who didn't run the course (i.e., it's a 10K course, and this person started at the finish line, walked a few feet, then walked around the finish line and crossed it)? Etc., etc.

Long story short, refusing to refuse to judge also causes issues.

It's still possible for a build to score higher than others and not place. Just because the build got 15/20 points with a 0 in UoSI while everyone else was 14.5 or below, doesn't mean that it got gold. It scored well. Great. It wasn't a legal entry and thus is disqualified from getting a medal, and the entrant can brag that he got a high score, but the Gold Medalist would be able to point out that it was illegally.

I doubt very seriously, however, that a build which used 0 levels of the SI would even be presented by the chairman, so this issue shouldn't come up in the first place. If it comes down to illegal ELEMENTS (Gestalt, alternate systems, etc) then the build should still be judged but as if the illegal elements just weren't there. Ergo, the build which Gestalted every level would effectively have 0 class levels. The one who uses spell points instead of spells/day? Can't cast spells. Etc. That would, itself, levy heavy penalties in most if not all areas. The possibility of a build which, in itself, BREAKS the rules scoring higher than the rest is, with this solution in mind, very, very low.

[Amphetryon]

It's still possible for a build to score higher than others and not place. Just because the build got 15/20 points with a 0 in UoSI while everyone else was 14.5 or below, doesn't mean that it got gold. It scored well. Great. It wasn't a legal entry and thus is disqualified from getting a medal, and the entrant can brag that he got a high score, but the Gold Medalist would be able to point out that it was illegally.

I doubt very seriously, however, that a build which used 0 levels of the SI would even be presented by the chairman, so this issue shouldn't come up in the first place. If it comes down to illegal ELEMENTS (Gestalt, alternate systems, etc) then the build should still be judged but as if the illegal elements just weren't there. Ergo, the build which Gestalted every level would effectively have 0 class levels. The one who uses spell points instead of spells/day? Can't cast spells. Etc. That would, itself, levy heavy penalties in most if not all areas. The possibility of a build which, in itself, BREAKS the rules scoring higher than the rest is, with this solution in mind, very, very low.

If you believe that being outscored by a build that's disqualified from winning the medal won't bother a contestant, I'd wager that's a minority view.