Star Wars vs Warhammer 40k.

[Brother Oni]

Well, particle shields only block physical, and if they weren't on they would be disintegrated by space dust going at interstellar speeds.

I'm not very familiar with SW tech, but if they had shields capable of stopping physical impacts, how come the Imperial fleet had so many problems in the asteroid belt during TESB?

Given that KE is 0.5* mass * velocity², wouldn't very fast moving particles be more of an issue than comparatively slow moving large asteroids?

[jseah]

But yeah, earlier we were talking about Droids building Droids building Droids. If the Imperium knows that that is happening, they'll be deploying EMP super weapons. Does this work against Droids?

Not well in space and not well through armour (which is like a multi-layered faraday cage). High power microwave weapons could work, but then if you could get in range do that it's basically a maser and you might as well just lance them. And it would also work on normal human-crewed ships anyway (in that it'd burn off sensor arrays and exposed electronics)

It'll work better on the ground though. Nuclear weapon EMPs can be pretty nasty and the range is alot closer on the ground, giving localized microwave weapons much better efficiencies on transferred power.
It'll help in resisting occupation and reducing enemy infrastructure on attack, but it's not a critical advantage.

Basically, droid-crewed starships are going to be more or less as good as human-crewed ones. Anything that could kill the droid crews are also mostly going to kill your human ones too. Most of your capability is in the ship's engines and weapons technology anyway.

[hamishspence]

I'm not very familiar with SW tech, but if they had shields capable of stopping physical impacts, how come the Imperial fleet had so many problems in the asteroid belt during TESB?

Possibly, because there were so many asteroids that the shields were slowly being whittled down.

I could see ships that are specifically stated to not have particle shields, having "navigational shielding" instead that will block minor space dust & debris - but nothing like an asteroid, or a proton torpedo.

The TIE Defender, in more recent descriptions, springs to mind.

[shadow_archmagi]

I'm not very familiar with SW tech, but if they had shields capable of stopping physical impacts, how come the Imperial fleet had so many problems in the asteroid belt during TESB?

Given that KE is 0.5* mass * velocity², wouldn't very fast moving particles be more of an issue than comparatively slow moving large asteroids?

I like that, of all things, the biggest physics problems in starwars always arise from that one scene with the asteroid field.

[lt_murgen]

According to wookieepedia, many star destroyers suffered heavy damage from continual asteroid impacts, but only one was destroyed when an asteroid crashed through the bridge.

[deuterio12]

There is an all-droid army in 40k. They're called necrons. Considered somewhat dangerous last time I checked, despite them not being able to build new members (ressurection protocols can and do get overwhelmed, and still don't allow for their numbers to increase).

I like that, of all things, the biggest physics problems in starwars always arise from that one scene with the asteroid field.

I believe that standard should be applied to both sides.

Whenever the 40K side brings some obscure super-tech, the first question should be "Why didn't they use that during the siege of Terra?"

Because both sides are really guilty of bringing all kind of ridiculous stuff in obscure novels. But when you look at the bigger picture, SW ships are being taken down by simple asteroid belts, and all of the emprah's psyker might was rendered useless by simple ship shields.

[Forum Explorer]

There is an all-droid army in 40k. They're called necrons. Considered somewhat dangerous last time I checked, despite them not being able to build new members (ressurection protocols can and do get overwhelmed, and still don't allow for their numbers to increase).





I believe that standard should be applied to both sides.

Whenever the 40K side brings some obscure super-tech, the first question should be "Why didn't they use that during the siege of Terra?"

Because both sides are really guilty of bringing all kind of ridiculous stuff in obscure novels. But when you look at the bigger picture, SW ships are being taken down by simple asteroid belts, and all of the emprah's psyker might was rendered useless by simple ship shields.

Calling the Necrons droids is an incredible simplification. I mean sure they were droids, if you consider a species that was transformed and enslaved into their current form by literal gods to be droids. And yeah it takes a lot to overwhelm Resurrection Protocols. Like, a direct hit from a Titan might not be enough.


Well the usual answer would simply be it was somewhere else at the time. During the fight for Terra (and whole Horus Heresy) the warp was stirred up so much by Chaos that travel was practically impossible.

Well yeah, that's part of what Void Shields are designed to do. Block everything. And don't forget Horus was basically hte Emperor's equal at the time.

[Fan]

There is an all-droid army in 40k. They're called necrons. Considered somewhat dangerous last time I checked, despite them not being able to build new members (ressurection protocols can and do get overwhelmed, and still don't allow for their numbers to increase).





I believe that standard should be applied to both sides.

Whenever the 40K side brings some obscure super-tech, the first question should be "Why didn't they use that during the siege of Terra?"

Because both sides are really guilty of bringing all kind of ridiculous stuff in obscure novels. But when you look at the bigger picture, SW ships are being taken down by simple asteroid belts, and all of the emprah's psyker might was rendered useless by simple ship shields.

It was that void shields specifically prevented him from teleporting onto the ship, not that he couldn't blow the ship out of the sky if he wanted to personally.

It was his CHOICE not to kill Horus until the very end, he was trying to, till the very end, convince his son that the way he had chosen was the wrong one and to bring him back.

It took the death of Sanguinus, his second favorite son, and a terminator that his son killed callously in front of him for him to give up on Horus and kill him.

That particular bit is incorrect, but there are a lot of problems with 40k.

[shadow_archmagi]

a terminator that his son killed callously in front of him for him to give up on Horus and kill him.

Pretty sure you mean a single guardsman

[Cheesegear]

Pretty sure you mean a single guardsman

It went from a single Guardsman,
to an Imperial Fist Terminator,
and now with Ollanius back in the canon, it looks like it will be back to a Guardsman again.

[Fan]

It went from a single Guardsman,
to an Imperial Fist Terminator,
and now with Ollanius back in the canon, it looks like it will be back to a Guardsman again.

They just added him back in Militarium Tempestus, part of their rework of Imperial Guard after they became Astra Militarium.

My information was right until last week. :P

[Cheesegear]

They just added him back in Militarium Tempestus, part of their rework of Imperial Guard after they became Astra Militarium.

My information was right until last week. :P

Uh...No. Ollanius came back in Know No Fear. February 2012.

[Ceiling_Squid]

Uh...No. Ollanius came back in Know No Fear. February 2012.

Oh, Ollanius is canon again? I need to really get round to reading the Horus Heresy series.

Thank the throne, though. Replacing Ollanius with a random terminator completely missed the point of that entire scene, and defanged it. One of the worst retcons GW has ever done, in my opinion. The massive power disparity between Horus and Pius was supposed to elevate the loyalty and duty of the Imperial Army against certain death, as well as illustrate just how cruel and merciless Horus had become.

Replacing Pius with a terminator softens the blow too much. And really, Horus has probably personally killed dozens of marines in the same battle. The emperor's disgusted reaction doesn't make any sense unless Horus deigns to utterly destroy a lowly guardsman who was just doing his duty.

Aaaanyway, back on topic.

[Cheesegear]

Oh, Ollanius is canon again? I need to really get round to reading the Horus Heresy series.

One of the B-plots of the Calth 'Trilogy', is Ollanius coming out retirement and taking up the rifle again.

Thank the throne, though. Replacing Ollanius with a random terminator completely missed the point of that entire scene, and defanged it.

Yes and no. It gave the Imperial Fists depth that they didn't have before. Much of the Imperial Fists fluff that we know today has only been around for the last ten years or so. Ditto for White Scars. Putting an Imperial Fist on the scene showed the Imperial Fists' sense of honour and duty, and Dorn was emo when he realised that he couldn't even remember the Terminator's name. Which is BS, because current-Dorn (remember, only in the last ten years) would know every single Marine in his entire Legion, right down to what their mother's name was.

The emperor's disgusted reaction doesn't make any sense unless Horus deigns to utterly destroy a lowly guardsman who was just doing his duty.

The Emperor's reaction was to Horus killing Sanguinius. That was kind of a big deal.

[Fan]

Uh...No. Ollanius came back in Know No Fear. February 2012.

Ah, one of the novels. That's my bad for not keeping up with the Horus Heresy since I was waiting for it to finish.

My bad.

I just saw that he was in Militarium Tempestus though, and that was released during the forum downtime.

[Ceiling_Squid]

The Emperor's reaction was to Horus killing Sanguinius. That was kind of a big deal.

Well, obviously killing Sanguinius is what sparked the duel between the Emperor and Horus, but I was of the impression that the callous death of whatever interposer is what spurred the Emperor to actually defeat Horus. Unless I'm misremembering my fluff badly enough, the Emperor was about to be finished off by Horus, and it wasn't until this final act of brutality that he could muster up the will to kill him.

The Emperor engaged Horus in battle and got himself mortally wounded after Sangunius was killed, sure. But after Pius (or whoever) was brutally flayed apart by a mere glance from Horus, the Emperor was given that last bit of resolve he needed to defeat Horus.

Horus' casual act of murder, the way a man might kill a mere child, is the tipping point.

Per the 40k wiki:

"The casual brutality of the Warmaster's act galvanised the Emperor as he realised what awaited Mankind under the rule of Horus and the Chaos Gods. Realising at last that his favoured son was truly lost to the corruption of Chaos, the Emperor finally gathered his full and awesome psychic power in the Immaterium and unleashed a lance of pure Warp energy that pierced the gloating Horus' psychic defenses and ripped his body apart."

Anyway, I'm getting completely off-base on what this topic is supposed to be about. Sorry about that. We can move this elsewhere if need be.

[hamishspence]

Actually, whatever it was the Emperor's psychic bolt did to Horus, it couldn't have done that much physical damage - since his body is still there for the Sons of Horus to take away with them (and for the Emperor's Children to steal and clone).


And his armour, for Abaddon to strip the claw from and take for his own.

I figure it was more aimed at Horus's mind - "willing him to die" so to speak.

Horus even speaks a few last words once the bolt has freed him from the influence of the Chaos Gods - basically asking the Emperor to finish him off before they take control of him again.

[Ceiling_Squid]

Actually, whatever it was the Emperor's psychic bolt did to Horus, it couldn't have done that much physical damage - since his body is still there for the Sons of Horus to take away with them (and for the Emperor's Children to steal and clone).


And his armour, for Abaddon to strip the claw from and take for his own.

I figure it was more aimed at Horus's mind - "willing him to die" so to speak.

Horus even speaks a few last words once the bolt has freed him from the influence of the Chaos Gods - basically asking the Emperor to finish him off before they take control of him again.

Admittedly, this is where we start running into a lot of fluff conflicts, but the basic jist of what I'm saying should hold. Pius' death was a tipping point in the battle between Horus and the Emperor. Before Pius entered the fray, the Emperor was about to be finished off by his favored son. After Pius dies, the Emperor obliterates Horus.

After Horus casually murdered the lowly human, that's when the Emperor could muster up the strength to either destroy or rather "will Horus to die", depending on the source's treatment of how he was defeated. The power imbalance between Horus and the interloper is key to the Emperor's final, hopeless decision to kill Horus.

So with all respect to the Imperial Fists, their hijacking of this particular piece of fluff diminished its impact pretty badly, in my opinion. Horus killing yet another space marine doesn't have the same oomph as Horus personally killing a regular Joe performing a hopeless act of defiance.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

I always thought the death of Pius was deliberately overkill. Horus could have swatted him aside with the power fist, but instead gazed upon him and completely destroyed him.

[Cheesegear]

Ah, one of the novels. That's my bad for not keeping up with the Horus Heresy since I was waiting for it to finish.

I'll tell you now, that's not happening for years. 28 Books in, and they've barely finished the Battle of Calth.

So with all respect to the Imperial Fists, their hijacking of this particular piece of fluff diminished its impact pretty badly, in my opinion. Horus killing yet another space marine doesn't have the same oomph as Horus personally killing a regular Joe performing a hopeless act of defiance.

I wont spoil it for you in you haven't read it (since it's already been pointed out that someone does plan to read it). But Ollanius has been changed. It might not be a 'hopeless act of defiance' anymore. More likely, it's probably a form of suicide.

Second, the impact remains the same. Horus is still the Chosen Primarch. Anyone who stands in his way is going to get annihilated - including Sanguinius. Whether it's a Guardsman, an Imperial Fist or a Custodes, all have devout loyalty to the Emperor and would gladly stand in the way, especially since whoever it was just saw Sanguinius get killed, and Sanguinius was the greatest Primarch (discounting Lorgar and Horus after their respective Falls).

[Fan]

I'll tell you now, that's not happening for years. 28 Books in, and they've barely finished the Battle of Calth.



I wont spoil it for you in you haven't read it (since it's already been pointed out that someone does plan to read it). But Ollanius has been changed. It might not be a 'hopeless act of defiance' anymore. More likely, it's probably a form of suicide.

Second, the impact remains the same. Horus is still the Chosen Primarch. Anyone who stands in his way is going to get annihilated - including Sanguinius. Whether it's a Guardsman, an Imperial Fist or a Custodes, all have devout loyalty to the Emperor and would gladly stand in the way, especially since whoever it was just saw Sanguinius get killed, and Sanguinius was the greatest Primarch (discounting Lorgar and Horus after their respective Falls).

I am quite aware.

I'm also quite aware that 40k novella tends to be pretty garbage. :P

Dan Abnett's an excellent writer though, so I probably should have picked the book up anyways.

[Ceiling_Squid]

I wont spoil it for you in you haven't read it (since it's already been pointed out that someone does plan to read it). But Ollanius has been changed. It might not be a 'hopeless act of defiance' anymore. More likely, it's probably a form of suicide.

Second, the impact remains the same. Horus is still the Chosen Primarch. Anyone who stands in his way is going to get annihilated - including Sanguinius. Whether it's a Guardsman, an Imperial Fist or a Custodes, all have devout loyalty to the Emperor and would gladly stand in the way, especially since whoever it was just saw Sanguinius get killed, and Sanguinius was the greatest Primarch (discounting Lorgar and Horus after their respective Falls).

We could argue this back and forth for a while. So let me be straightforward: I don't like it. I'm of the strong opinion that it diminishes the effect, and that it was an unnecessary retcon in the first place to write Pius out. That's where I stand as far as my reading of the situation goes. Clearly it doesn't bother you, and that's fine. It may just be the IG-fan in me that's talking.

Maybe I'm just extremely tired of the superhuman space marines getting to do everything significant. Pius is the patron saint of guardsmen, the axiom of all cannon fodder dog soldiers, for a reason. Sure, the Fists got more backstory in the retcon, but its nice to see a footslogger get thrust into the limelight, especially when it involves the Emperor directly. It illustrates how the sacrifice of even the least of his followers mattered at that key moment in history.

Sadly, if what you're alluding to from the new fluff involves them making Pius into some kind of special superhuman -- they're missing the point again. Entirely.

EDIT: I've already mentioned this a couple times, but I think we're getting drawn into a critical fluff debate that might be better continued in the 40k fluff thread.

[GabrielSantar29]

After seeing the large number of posts in which SW fans are saying that the Imperiums forces could easily be outnumbered by a droid army, I thought I'd come in on the side of the Imperial Guard.
There are about 32,380 hive worlds in the Imperium with an on average population of 200 billion. Now normally the Imperium needs to distribute the forces from these Hive worlds throughout all its various fronts but if it were to say conscript 10-15% of the population of the HIVE WORLDS without even touching the other 967,620 worlds in the Imperium, they would have a force that was into the high billions at least. This alone would give them enough men to at least stall the droids. Add in to that that the hive worlders are generally going to have four or five kids each and the Imperial Guard could fairly easily start to scale up to the kind of size where it would be coming close to matching the droids numbers. And before you say that it takes time to train such troops, in the novel Helsreach, an Imperial Guard sergeant shouts his way through a quick demonstration of how to use a lasgun and what to do if you get separated from your unit in no more than twenty minutes. The dockworkers who he showed how to use the weapon then went on to perform decently enough against the orks, delaying a huge force of them for weeks.
And then there's the matter of the quality of Imperial Guard equipment and training. Yes the IG has the worst equipment for it's universe but we need to keep it in perspective. They are fighting genetically engineered superhumans in near impenetrable armour, demons, Eldar, orks, necrons and the Tyranids. And they still hold the line and have a half way decent win-loss ratio. As to their training, they just fire in volleys at a given target. That much fire and one of you is going to get lucky :) That's without including such regiments as the Cadians, DKoK, Elysians and mini rambos, I mean Catachans. All of these regiments have training that's as good as that of your average clone but they have a lot more cannon fodder behind them.
Also they have a lot more earthshakers.
That brings me on to my next point. The DKoK. These guys are about as war oriented as you can get. You thought that the republic was heartless with clones? You aint seen nothing yet. These guys nuked their home planet when it rebelled before fighting a 500 year war of attrition to get it back. This has led to the DKoK being one of the most fanatical and skilled IG regiments in the Imperium. In their most recent triumph, the sieg of Vraks, they pushed troops into autocanons, barbed wire, flamers, gas that ATE THROUGH THEIR GAS MASKSearthshaker fire and demons. And what's more the DKoK troopers went in willingly, their lifes goal is to die fighting for the Emperor. When a child is born/cloned it's given a number. Part of the DKoK training regime is to make recruits fight each other and then, during their final test, survive two months on Kreig's radioactive surface while trying to kill each other. Also the equipment they carry is viewed as being more valuble than the trooper carrying it. Given that when they see a position which it's pure suicide to assault they shout "HURRAH" and charge with bayonets, I'd love to see wha Stormtroopers made of these guys. And you wanna know something else? Krieg is producing 50 million of these guys a year.
Anyway rant over I think I've made it clear enough why I think that the Imperium would beat a droid army hands down.

[The Glyphstone]

Great Modthulhu: Thread necromancy is Heresy.

*BLAM*