Star Wars vs Warhammer 40k.

[Tanuki Tales]

Usually one of the losing points for 40k in any given vs matchup is FTL capability, since faster than light travel for anyone (except maybe the Eldar and the Necrons) is a chancy affair and not just point-a-to-point-b like in most other sci-fi genres.

Don't the Tau also have FTL drives that don't rely on the Warp?

[The Glyphstone]

Don't the Tau also have FTL drives that don't rely on the Warp?

Sort of. Their FTL is semi-warp-based, acting like a skipping rock across the 'surface' of the warp but never actually 'submerging' into it, since they can't navigate inside it. It's still FTL, but by far the slowest FTL in the setting.

[LordHavelock]

Don't the Tau also have FTL drives that don't rely on the Warp?

They use the Warp too, but their empire isn't so big that they get by with 'short' FTL skips and jumps, that barely skim Warp Space. That and they're not even a fully realized psychic race (even compared to humanity) makes them altogether less appealing fare and thus their experience with Warp space is more, shall we say, wholesome. Chaos doesn't care about them because their souls don't really register, and because they have no psykers, astropaths, or navigators, their warp travel and initiation into the larger galaxy remains slow.

Given the nature of the Force in the Star Wars universe and working from the assumption that the Force and 40k psychic powers is roughly analogous, I'm thinking the same placidity won't hold true for any ships making anything more than a short FTL jump once the Forces of Chaos catch on to these new items on the menu.

[druid91]

Hyperspace is weird. Half the time it's an alternate reality, but the other half it's just a term for what things look like when your ship turns to Tachyonic matter and zooms away FTL.

It depends on who's talking.

[Tanuki Tales]

Given the nature of the Force in the Star Wars universe and working from the assumption that the Force and 40k psychic powers is roughly analogous, I'm thinking the same placidity won't hold true for any ships making anything more than a short FTL jump once the Forces of Chaos catch on to these new items on the menu.

I was not saying that, I just remembered the Tau having some kind of reliable, albeit slow, FTL travel.

[LordHavelock]

Hyperspace is weird. Half the time it's an alternate reality, but the other half it's just a term for what things look like when your ship turns to Tachyonic matter and zooms away FTL.

It depends on who's talking.

But it almost always amounts to extradimensional or transdimensional sort of travel, given that even what little we know about tachyons and are willing to suppose for the sake of science fiction means they have to breach the bounds of strictly physical existence in a singular dimension of space-time.

Either way though, anything not strictly of material existence is fair game for Daemons and the ruinous powers. Doesn't matter if it's quantum physics or metaphysics, if it's non-newtonian it's a way in for them.

I was not saying that, I just remembered the Tau having some kind of reliable, albeit slow, FTL travel.

Then you're right, and I think it only serves to show all the more that any Star Wars ships, will not.

[Cheesegear]

I think though, that shouldn't hold true for Star Wars. Their means of FTL utilizes an extradimensional sort of transposition, almost exactly like Warp Travel in 40k

What? No. The Empire is just an unencountered xenos race that doesn't use the Warp for FTL. The Imperium has dealt with Necrons can phase or teleport short distances instantaneously (and by 'short' I mean several Solar Systems worth of distance). The Imperium has dealt with starship sized Webway Gates that allow Eldar Fleets to move anywhere to anywhere like Stargates, in fact, call them what they are. The Eldar use Stargates.

I don't see why Star Wars needs to play by 40K's rules. Especially when 40K already allows for non-Warp FTL travel.

[LordHavelock]

What? No. The Empire is just an unencountered xenos race that doesn't use the Warp for FTL. The Imperium has dealt with Necrons can phase or teleport short distances instantaneously (and by 'short' I mean several Solar Systems worth of distance). The Imperium has dealt with starship sized Webway Gates that allow Eldar Fleets to move anywhere to anywhere like Stargates, in fact, call them what they are. The Eldar use Stargates.

I don't see why Star Wars needs to play by 40K's rules. Especially when 40K already allows for non-Warp FTL travel.

Except that the Necrons do travel through the Warp when they teleport, The Necrons also use the Webway, like the Eldar, except they're a little more protected because the C'tan set them up with some serious divinity-tier tech, and more to the point, Necrons don't have souls, and the C'tan themselves contend with Chaos on it's own terms of infernal influence. For all other needs, the Necrons travel at sub-light speeds, because they are above all patient. The Eldar Webway also uses the Warp, it's just that at their peak, the Eldar were able to build effing roads across Warp Space, and even then, the webway has gone into disrepair since, with whole sections of it being taken over by daemons and closed off in turn by the Eldar.

The point is that in 40k FTL travel comes with a cost, and I don't see why Star Wars shouldn't have the same cost if they're going into conflict with 40k on their own terms. Same holds true the other way around, if it's 40k invading the Galaxy Far, Far Away, they may not necessarily be taking the daemons of their own Galaxy with them (at least, not at first).

[Cheesegear]

The point is that in 40k FTL travel comes with a cost, and I don't see why Star Wars shouldn't have the same cost if they're going into conflict with 40k on their own terms. Same holds true the other way around, if it's 40k invading the Galaxy Far, Far Away, they may not necessarily be taking the daemons of their own Galaxy with them (at least, not at first).

Then what is the point? If non-40K units are suddenly dropped into a place that they're not equipped to deal with, they lose. Full stop. The Empire does not have Gellar Fields, they can't enter the Warp without everyone on board turning into Spawn. If they can't enter the Warp, they can't FTL. Full stop. The Empire loses. While we're at it, the Jedi are always at risk at having their heads explode every time they use the Force, which AFAIK they use constantly.

If 40K units are dropped in a Galaxy Far, Far Away that doesn't have the Warp, do Psykers even still have Powers? If they do, are there no consequences because there's no Warp? Can low-level Psykers now start Overbleeding at will and tearing AT-ATs in half with no respect to psychic limits? Are Gamma-level Psykers and above now unfettered from consequence? Because now they're cracking planets in half at will.

40K metaphysics are out of control. That's why the setting has built-in restrictions to keep it in control.

EDIT
RE; Necron FTL. The canon reason that Necrons managed to get a look at Terra and past Phalanx was because they could phase/teleport.

Also, how do Jedi deal with Vortex Grenades?

[Boci]

Then what is the point? If non-40K units are suddenly dropped into a place that they're not equipped to deal with, they lose. Full stop. The Empire does not have Gellar Fields, they can't enter the Warp without everyone on board turning into Spawn. If they can't enter the Warp, they can't FTL. Full stop. The Empire loses. While we're at it, the Jedi are always at risk at having their heads explode every time they use the Force, which AFAIK they use constantly.

If 40K units are dropped in a Galaxy Far, Far Away that doesn't have the Warp, do Psykers even still have Powers? If they do, are there no consequences because there's no Warp? Can low-level Psykers now start Overbleeding at will and tearing AT-ATs in half with no respect to psychic limits? Are Gamma-level Psykers and above now unfettered from consequence? Because now they're cracking planets in half at will.

40K metaphysics are out of control. That's why the setting has built-in restrictions to keep it in control.

To be fair, LordHavelock isn't saying the Empire shouldn't have FTL, just that hyper drives would take you into the warp or webway in the 40k verse. From a fluff standpoint he's probably right, but from a vs. standpoint I agree with you, we should allow their technologies to function as they originally did,

[Cheesegear]

To be fair, LordHavelock isn't saying the Empire shouldn't have FTL, just that hyper drives would take you into the warp or webway in the 40k verse.

Yes. And I'm saying that if the Empire enters the Warp (i.e; Uses FTL), everyone dies. Which is dumb, because reliable, fast FTL is one of Star Wars' advantages over 40K.

[LordHavelock]

Then what is the point? If non-40K units are suddenly dropped into a place that they're not equipped to deal with, they lose. Full stop. The Empire does not have Gellar Fields, they can't enter the Warp without everyone on board turning into Spawn. If they can't enter the Warp, they can't FTL. Full stop. The Empire loses. While we're at it, the Jedi are always at risk at having their heads explode every time they use the Force, which AFAIK they use constantly.

If 40K units are dropped in a Galaxy Far, Far Away that doesn't have the Warp, do Psykers even still have Powers? If they do, are there no consequences because there's no Warp? Can low-level Psykers now start Overbleeding at will and tearing AT-ATs in half with no respect to psychic limits? Are Theta-level Psykers and above now unfettered from consequence? Because now they're cracking planets in half at will.

40K metaphysics are out of control. That's why the setting has built-in restrictions to keep it in control.

My answer to your post in a word would be 'Yes'. To all of it.

I think that's exactly where the respective lore of each universe leads us when juxtaposed, especially of the purpose for a versus debate. I'm willing to grant that the Empire could probably figure out Gellar fields (or even already have a less developed version as a function of whatever other FTL precautions they take in their home galaxy). Jedi are always at risk of succumbing to the Dark Side whenever they use Force Powers, it's just that even the Dark Side at it's darkest is a whole lot less scary than most everything in 40k. The power of Chaos is, I should think, just the Dark Side turned up to 11 and proportionately all the more powerful and seductive; "The quick and easy path to power for it's own sake" being a fair description of both.

Of course, if psykers start Overbleeding all up and down the Star Wars Galaxy, that's going to have some serious repercussions for balance in the Force, and combine with all the metaphysical baggage which any IoM (or any other 40k faction) invasion force is going to bring with it, I think it's just a matter of time before you see the birth of some bizarre twist on The Living Force as an entity in and of itself, and not unlike the Chaos Gods of 40k (though probably with more of a Ying-Yang flavoring).

Think about it, power in the Force comes from will and emotion, and it's the combine will and emotion of every psychically realized creature in the 40k galaxy that empowers and maintains the Chaos Gods as what they are. Mix one with the other and they're bound to start bleeding over.

[Boci]

Yes. And I'm saying that if the Empire enters the Warp (i.e; Uses FTL), everyone dies. Which is dumb, because reliable, fast FTL is one of Star Wars' advantages over 40K.

Unless its fluffed as entering the webway. And I acknowledged that its an important advantage of the Starwars verse in the sentence you decided not you quote.

Of course, if psykers start Overbleeding all up and down the Star Wars Galaxy,

How are psykers doing anything without the warp? This isn't warp travel, where the warp is simply a means to the end, don't psykers channel the warp to use their powers? Removing the warp doesn't allow them to safely channel the warp, it prevents them from doing so entirely.

[Grim Portent]

It occurs to me that if the Inquisition is being factored in then they can bring sorcery and daemonic rituals into play against the Empire.

One sufficiently determined Inquisitor and retinue could see greater daemons being summoned to do battle (most would only be able to use lower powered daemonhosts though). It would inevitably end badly for all involved on both sides, but it would be a fight I'd love to see. Bloodthirsters fighting Star Wars walkers, Lords of Change and Keepers of Secrets dueling Jedi. Then promptly turning on the fools who summoned them in a slaughter of amusing proportions.

[LordHavelock]

How are psykers doing anything without the warp? This isn't warp travel, where the warp is simply a means to the end, don't psykers channel the warp to use their powers? Removing the warp doesn't allow them to safely channel the warp, it prevents them from doing so entirely.

Right except, the assumption is that Hyperspace is just Star Wars' version of The Warp, a whole lot more tame and simple because the source of psychic energy in Star Wars, The Force, is a more balanced and "wholesome" power. The reason The Warp is the way it is in 40k is because it is an outlet for the combine psychic baggage of all psychically uplifted life in 40k and at any given time, the Star Wars Galaxy is a hell of a lot more peaceful and amicable place by comparison. So their extra-dimensional outlet isn't teeming with psychic predators and hoary old gods except maybe a few conniving and particularly potent Force Spirits.

[Boci]

Right except, the assumption is that Hyperspace is just Star Wars' version of The Warp

Only in that its responsible for FTL, its got nothing to do with psychic powers. That's the force, which is in reality and operates under completely different ideologies. Unless I am missing something there is not reason a psyker will be able to substitute hyper space or the force for the warp.

[LordHavelock]

Only in that its responsible for FTL, its got nothing to do with psychic powers. That's the force, which is in reality and operates under completely different ideologies. Unless I am missing something there is not reason a psyker will be able to substitute hyper space or the force for the warp.

You might be right, though there's plenty about the Force to suggest it's much more than something which exists 'in reality' (or perhaps more pertinently, that it exists in all realities). Which I suppose would mean that 40k psykers would not be able to overbleed freely, because there would be no additional power stemming from the Warp to draw upon, or rather they'd be drawing on The Force which doesn't scream and writhe and pulse constantly with the trillions upon trillions of psyker's souls and all those who have given themselves to chaos, and thus doesn't represent the same font of horrendous, nightmarish power.

So basically, 40k psykers in the Star Wars universe would be initially much more tame, until their actions and the resulting strife begin to affect the metaphysical realm of the Galaxy Far Far Away in the same way as 40k's home galaxy.

[druid91]

My answer to your post in a word would be 'Yes'. To all of it.

I think that's exactly where the respective lore of each universe leads us when juxtaposed, especially of the purpose for a versus debate. I'm willing to grant that the Empire could probably figure out Gellar fields (or even already have a less developed version as a function of whatever other FTL precautions they take in their home galaxy). Jedi are always at risk of succumbing to the Dark Side whenever they use Force Powers, it's just that even the Dark Side at it's darkest is a whole lot less scary than most everything in 40k. The power of Chaos is, I should think, just the Dark Side turned up to 11 and proportionately all the more powerful and seductive; "The quick and easy path to power for it's own sake" being a fair description of both.

Of course, if psykers start Overbleeding all up and down the Star Wars Galaxy, that's going to have some serious repercussions for balance in the Force, and combine with all the metaphysical baggage which any IoM (or any other 40k faction) invasion force is going to bring with it, I think it's just a matter of time before you see the birth of some bizarre twist on The Living Force as an entity in and of itself, and not unlike the Chaos Gods of 40k (though probably with more of a Ying-Yang flavoring).

Think about it, power in the Force comes from will and emotion, and it's the combine will and emotion of every psychically realized creature in the 40k galaxy that empowers and maintains the Chaos Gods as what they are. Mix one with the other and they're bound to start bleeding over.

Err no. The "Dark side" and the "Light side" are literally ideological viewpoints about how you should treat your newfound status as a superbeing.

Dark side is basically self focused, along with a tendency to throw around your powers like mad, and essentially develop your psychic muscles like a mental Schwarzenegger at the cost of your sensitivity to changes within the force being vastly diminished.

Light side is other focused, you try to avoid using too much power because there's no real need and as a result are more sensitive to changes in the overall structure, because that structure isn't quite so turbulent.

A full blown dark sider would be point-blank immune to the seduction or corruption of the warp in all likelihood as they wouldn't even realize it's there, they're too busy kicking up their own metaphysical warpstorm, which IIRC is why the jedi stopped getting decent premonitions in the prequels, Palpatine was there and was throwing around his influence, stirring up psychic dust that obscured everything.

A light sider would, ironically be more sensitive to any whisperings.

Also the force and hyperspace are two different things.

[jseah]

Did I miss anything?

The problem with this match up is: people look at tactical side, not strategic side. <...>

You forget that Star Wars has Strong AI.

Droids that can build more droids and do just about anything as well as people.

If Star Wars side goes into full no-holds barred war footing, it will result in exponentially increasing production power. (they can produce "labour" that doesn't requre training)

You more or less have to assume a Calm Warp scenario, it just ends badly for both sides otherwise.
(droids are rather worse than the Men of Iron as they can just as well do research)

[Tiki Snakes]

You forget that Star Wars has Strong AI.

Droids that can build more droids and do just about anything as well as people.

If Star Wars side goes into full no-holds barred war footing, it will result in exponentially increasing production power. (they can produce "labour" that doesn't requre training)

You more or less have to assume a Calm Warp scenario, it just ends badly for both sides otherwise.
(droids are rather worse than the Men of Iron as they can just as well do research)

If this is the case, why has it never in any star wars media actually been the case?

[ShadowFireLance]

Tyranid Jedi.

Tyranids with the Force.

Tyranid Rancors.

[Kitten Champion]

If this is the case, why has it never in any star wars media actually been the case?

The droids have shown sophisticated intelligence and problem-solving abilities, it's just that... they're comic relief.

[druid91]

If this is the case, why has it never in any star wars media actually been the case?

It has. Just they lose because power of plot and hero's intervening at just the right moment to throw a monkey wrench in the works and destroy the bad guy droids.

The HK-51 line, HK-47, and IG-88 A-D all at varying points came close to exterminating everything in a droid rebellion IIRC.

[HamHam]

If this is the case, why has it never in any star wars media actually been the case?

War droids are pretty common in Star Wars. Some rogue droid is always trying to create an army of them, but there is always an unlikely band of heros there to stop it.

There was a full blown droid rebellion at one point, too.

The Seperatists also show that you can start with basically nothing but money, and buy a bunch of droids and end up with an army able to fight the entirety of the Republic on equal terms.

[Tiki Snakes]

It has. Just they lose because power of plot and hero's intervening at just the right moment to throw a monkey wrench in the works and destroy the bad guy droids.

The HK-51 line, HK-47, and IG-88 A-D all at varying points came close to exterminating everything in a droid rebellion IIRC.

We're not discussing droid rebellions or something. We're discussing the Empire. And specifically the claim is that they could or would use hard scifi ideas like droids designing new droids at exponential rates in order to zerg rush the opposition with vast super-intelligent post-singularity droid armies or something.

Despite the fact that the empire, rebellion and even republic never used that tactic against any other civilisation ending mega-threat.

[LordHavelock]

Err no. The "Dark side" and the "Light side" are literally ideological viewpoints about how you should treat your newfound status as a superbeing.

Dark side is basically self focused, along with a tendency to throw around your powers like mad, and essentially develop your psychic muscles like a mental Schwarzenegger at the cost of your sensitivity to changes within the force being vastly diminished.

Light side is other focused, you try to avoid using too much power because there's no real need and as a result are more sensitive to changes in the overall structure, because that structure isn't quite so turbulent.

A full blown dark sider would be point-blank immune to the seduction or corruption of the warp in all likelihood as they wouldn't even realize it's there, they're too busy kicking up their own metaphysical warpstorm, which IIRC is why the jedi stopped getting decent premonitions in the prequels, Palpatine was there and was throwing around his influence, stirring up psychic dust that obscured everything.

A light sider would, ironically be more sensitive to any whisperings.

Also the force and hyperspace are two different things.

I don't agree, as even the most powerful Dark Side Force users can't hold a candle to even your average Chaos Space Marine veteran in terms of sheer horrors witnessed/perpetrated. Even the darkest Dark Siders in Star Wars have room to fall in the context of 40k would just be all the less aware that a new and more manipulative, malevolent power is using them and their connection to the Force for it's own ends.

Also, I'm not saying that Hyperspace is the Force, I'm saying that The Warp probably already encompasses whatever pocket dimension it is that allows for FTL travel in Star Wars. An invasion by the forces of 40k into the Galaxy Far Far Away is just the catalyst for their version of the Immaterium becoming . . . well the Immaterium.

You forget that Star Wars has Strong AI.

Droids that can build more droids and do just about anything as well as people.

If Star Wars side goes into full no-holds barred war footing, it will result in exponentially increasing production power. (they can produce "labour" that doesn't requre training)

You more or less have to assume a Calm Warp scenario, it just ends badly for both sides otherwise.
(droids are rather worse than the Men of Iron as they can just as well do research)

Star Wars doesn't have Strong AI. The most advanced Droid Brains are smarter than sentient humanoids in terms of raw processing power and memory, but inexplicably are constrained by a 'personality' which makes their thought process altogether 'human' (or humanoid). There are some exceptions, but the explanation for why Star Wars, even though it goes into full war footing every few centuries or so is that even post-industrial powers are still rooted in a sort of 'artisan' core, which is what gives the universe as a whole the more romantic, space-opera feel which is characteristic of Star Wars. Thus, no exponentially increasing production power, or that would have happened to Star Wars sometime in the last couple of tens of thousands of years since droids were first invented.

[HamHam]

We're not discussing droid rebellions or something. We're discussing the Empire. And specifically the claim is that they could or would use hard scifi ideas like droids designing new droids at exponential rates in order to zerg rush the opposition with vast super-intelligent post-singularity droid armies or something.

Despite the fact that the empire, rebellion and even republic never used that tactic against any other civilisation ending mega-threat.

The Separatists did. Their army consists of like a dozen actual dudes at the top, and then it's just droids all the way down.

[Tiki Snakes]

The Separatists did. Their army consists of like a dozen actual dudes at the top, and then it's just droids all the way down.

A ground army so powerful it can significantly opposed via pratfall.
Seriously, the Droids were not a meaningful combat thread even by stormtrooper standards.

[Squark]

The Separatists did. Their army consists of like a dozen actual dudes at the top, and then it's just droids all the way down.

Probably closer to a couple thousand officers and tacticians. Plus large numbers of non-droid planetary security forces to avoid scaring their populace.

On star wars's "Strong AI's": For whatever reason, such AIs seem prone to megalomania that inevitably makes them rebel against organics. the IG-88s tried to launch a droid rebellion (They got pretty close, but using the death star as the rallying point backfired rather spectacularly), while Mentor went so extreme that he drove away the droids he hadn't assimilated into himself and was betrayed. So, while the SW universe can make super-intelligent AIs... For whatever reason, they really fail horribly at giving them a sense of morality.

EDIT: Eh, don't count the droids out completely. Once they finally dropped the comic relief, they actually gave a pretty good accounting of themselves as long as plot armor wasn't rearing its ugly head.

[Forum Explorer]

The Separatists did. Their army consists of like a dozen actual dudes at the top, and then it's just droids all the way down.

and quite frankly the droids were crap. They lost even though they outnumbered the Republic 100-1.


Regardless I think I remember the Emperor was sorta anti-droid. He was also sexist and xenophobic. So I don't think we could expect to see legions upon legions of droids. Which likely

a) wouldn't surprise the Imperium as the Nid's have crazy huge numbers and they manage to defeat them.

b) are so crappy that a single Titan Legion be enough to destroy them all without taking a casualty.