Results 1 to 11 of 11
  1. - Top - End - #1
    Ettin in the Playground
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Gender
    Male

    Default Poison [D&D 3.5 Skill] [Second draft]

    Note: This is a polished version of a topic I started a really long time ago. If you're getting dιjΰ vu, that's why.

    Premise: In 3.5, poisons take way too much effort, are way too costly, and generally don't work very well. They're also very swingy, and they just aren't that satisfying. I'm aiming to make poisons more accessible without making them so all-or-nothing. I'm very inexperienced at homebrewing, so please, feel free to offer whatever criticism you see fit, though I'd prefer it to at least be constructive. I am cribbing a bit from 4e here . . . players of 4e will recognize poison damage and ongoing damage. This is intentional; I like them. I'm also looking to make poisons primarily do damage, not stat damage . . . this will hopefully reduce their “swinginess,” make them feel less all-or-nothing, and make them more relevant on a round-by-round basis.

    A few other design notes: This is meant to be mostly equipment-independent. I've never met a GM who would say "no, you can't even try to stop your friend from bleeding out; you don't have a healing kit." It's generally assumed that even if you don't have something good enough for the +2, someone trained in Heal has something they can use to make a halfway decent Heal check. Likewise, someone with ranks in Poison is assumed to have enough reagents lying around to whip something up . . . and part of that training is being able to MacGuyver whatever you have handy into something toxic.

    Note: This is NOT meant to replace as-written poisons. Old-style poisons still exist. You can buy a bottle of drow juice, smear it on your pointy stick, and stab someone with it, all without taking a single rank in the new Poison skill. This is meant to augment, not replace.

    -------------------------------------

    Class Skills: Rogues, Ninjas, Rangers, Scouts, Spellthieves, Soulknives, Shadowcasters, and Lurks have Poison as a class skill. Of the classes I did not mention, any class with Heal as a class skill also gets Poison as a class skill. Any class that gets Survival as a class skill may swap it out in favor of Poison.

    Spoiler
    Show
    Poison (INT, trained only)

    Basics


    You are adept at crafting and using combat poisons. You can spend one minute of work to make a long-lasting poison and apply it to a weapon, or you can spend a standard action to make a short-lasting poison and apply it to a weapon. A long-lasting poison lasts for 24 hours or until it strikes a target. A short-lasting poison lasts for one minute or until it strikes a target. You may have a number of long-lasting doses of poison available equal to your INT mod (minimum 1) plus 1/4 of your ranks in Poison (rounded up). There is no inherent limit to how many doses of short-lasting poison you may have at once, though obviously, you can only make so many before they decay and become nontoxic. A single weapon that is not a piece of ammunition can hold two doses of poison created with the Poison skill at once (in any combination of short and long), though each hit only applies one dose. A single piece of ammunition can only hold one dose. Poisons not created with the Poison skill are not affected by this limit and do not interact with short or long poisons. When you strike a creature with a weapon coated with a dose of poison made through the Poison skill, you can choose which, if any, of the poisons to apply, though you can use no more than one per strike.

    All poisons created with the Poison skill are injury poisons, unless noted otherwise.

    You do not run the risk of poisoning yourself with poisons you create through the Poison skill, even if you apply it to a natural weapon. If you give a weapon coated with a poison created through this skill to another creature, that creature runs the risk of being exposed to the poison if they do not have at least half as many ranks in Poison as you do, rounded down. Any time such a creature draws such a weapon, attacks with it, or misses with it, they have a 10% chance of being exposed to (and needing to save against) the poison on the weapon. This replaces the normal 5% chance of poisoning one's self; toxins created through the Poison skill are more volatile and riskier than other poisons.

    Special: If you have 12 or more ranks in Poison, you can affect creatures normally immune to poison with your poisons, though they get a +10 on their Fortitude saves to resist it. Creatures that are normally immune to Fortitude saves, like undead or constructs, are still affected.

    Short-Lasting Poison

    When a weapon coated with short-lasting poison strikes a target, the target must succeed on a Fortitude save (DC: your Poison check result – 5) or take poison damage. The amount of damage taken is dependent on your check result, as shown below.

    • Check result 9 or less: Failure; poison is nonviable
    • Check result 10-14: 1d6 poison damage
    • Check result 15-19: 2d6 poison damage
    • Check result 20-24: 3d6 poison damage
    • Check result 25-29: 4d6 poison damage
    • Check result 30-34: 5d6 poison damage
    • Check result 35-39: 6d6 poison damage
    • Check result 40-44: 7d6 poison damage
    • Check result 45-49: 8d6 poison damage
    • Check result 50+: 9d6 poison damage (maximum)


    Spoiler: Example
    Show
    Jack the assassin knows that he's going to be ambushing a target in a moment, so he whips up a dose of short-lasting poison on his favorite dagger. He rolls a 26 on his Poison check to prepare the poison. If he hits his victim, that victim must make a DC 21 Fortitude save or take 4d6 poison damage, in addition to whatever other damage Jack's attack would normally do. (Remember that the raw check result determines the damage, but the check result minus 5 determines the Fortitude save DC.)


    Spoiler: Design notes
    Show
    This is the same table of damage used for Iaijutsu Focus. It's the only good example of tying skill checks to damage that I have, so I'm sticking with it for now.


    Long-Lasting Poison

    When a weapon coated with a dose of long-lasting poison hits a target, that target must succeed on a Fortitude save (DC = your Poison check result – 5) or take ongoing poison damage based on your check result. (Ongoing damage is automatically dealt to a target at the start of each of its turns, like the opposite of fast healing.) The amount of damage is noted below. Ongoing damage dealt by a long-lasting poison lasts for a number of rounds equal to your Intelligence modifier (minimum 1) + 1/4 your ranks in Poison (rounded up). This damage can be stopped by a Heal check (made as a standard action) with a DC equal to your Poison check result. If a creature is suffering from the effects of multiple doses of long-lasting poison, only the most damaging one applies. A separate Heal check must be made to negate each, and if the most damaging one's duration expires, the target must still deal with any remaining ones. A creature taking ongoing damage from a long-lasting poison is considered to be taking continuous damage for the purposes of concentration on spells, powers, or similar abilities. A creature taking ongoing damage from a long-lasting poison cannot stabilize at or below 0 HP until the poison is removed, even if they receive magical healing (unless that magical healing also removes the poison).

    • Check result 9 or less: Failure; poison is nonviable
    • Check result 10-14: 2 ongoing poison damage
    • Check result 15-19: 5 ongoing poison damage
    • Check result 20-24: 10 ongoing poison damage
    • Check result 25-29: 15 ongoing poison damage
    • Check result 30-34: 20 ongoing poison damage
    • Check result 35-39: 25 ongoing poison damage
    • Check result 40-44: 30 ongoing poison damage
    • Check result 45-49: 35 ongoing poison damage
    • Check result 50+: 40 ongoing poison damage (maximum)


    Spoiler: Example
    Show
    Jack the assassin is preparing for a long day of killing things and taking their stuff adventuring. He has an INT score of 16 and 6 ranks in Poison, so he can prepare up to 5 doses of long-lasting poison at once. Say that he gets a 28 on his Poison check to create long-lasting poison; any target he hits with that long-lasting poison must succeed on a DC 23 Fortitude save or take 15 poison damage at the start of their turn for the next 5 rounds. A DC 28 Heal check can stop the poison prematurely. (Remember that the raw check result determines the ongoing damage and the Heal DC, but the check result minus 5 is the Fortitude save DC.) Even though he can only have 5 prepared doses at once, if he uses up some of those doses in a fight, he can prepare new ones as long as he has a few minutes of down-time, up to a maximum of 5 at once. As Jack increases in power (with more ranks in Poison and/or more points in INT), the number of doses of long-lasting poison he can create at once will increase, as will their durations.


    Dealing With Long-Lasting Poison

    As noted above, a Heal check (DC = your Poison check result) made as a standard action can remove a long-lasting poison from a creature; a creature may make this Heal check on themselves or on any creature they can touch. A creature making a Heal check to remove long-lasting poison may choose which long-lasting poison effect to remove. (Typically, they will remove the most damaging one, but the choice is theirs to make.)

    If the target of a long-lasting poison receives magical healing, the source of the magical healing may make a Heal check to stop the poison (as part of the same action used to apply the magical healing). The DC is the same, but the one doing the healing receives a bonus on the Heal check equal to the spell level of the healing effect (for example, Cure Moderate Wounds is a level 2 spell, so it would apply a +2 bonus to the Heal check). If the effect is not a spell, apply the equivalent to the spell level (power level, utterance level, etc.), if possible. [This is poorly worded. Help?] This only applies to magical healing applied after the poison has started; for example, a creature who has magically been granted fast healing before your poison took effect would not receive a free Heal check through that magical healing, though a creature who is magically granted fast healing after your poison takes effect does receive a Heal check as a result. In any case, magical healing only grants a Heal check against long-lasting poison if that magical healing took an action; an area with a constant regenerative effect, a passive healing aura, and similar effects do not allow a free Heal check.

    As a full-round action, a creature suffering the effects of a long-lasting poison make make a Fortitude save with a +5 bonus against each long-lasting poison affecting them; success removes that instance of long-lasting poison. (Make a separate save for each instance of long-lasting poison.) A creature that knows that it is poisoned may make this check before taking the damage from the poison. (Ongoing poison damage otherwise happens at the start of the victim's turn.)

    Long-lasting poison does not affect short-lasting poison; although a single attack can only deal one dose of poison, taking long-lasting poison damage does not increase or decrease the amount of damage a target can take from short-lasting poison.

    Spoiler: Design notes
    Show
    The idea is that the damage dealt will be higher but slower than the damage dealt by short-lasting poisons. As a baseline, I'm saying that the damage dealt will be 5 damage times (the number of d6s an equivalent check would make a short-acting dose do, minus one). For example, if a short-acting check would give you 2d6 damage, a long-lasting check would give you 5 ongoing. If it would do 4d6, you get 15 ongoing. The damage is more reliable, but since D&D prioritizes spike damage over bleed damage, both have a reason to exist.

    You're going to have long-lasting poisons ready to go when you start combat, but you're going to have to spend an action prepping a short-lasting poison, unless you have an ambush or a buff round. Therefore, long-lasting poisons are slightly less useful, since it's better to kill an opponent now than to slowly let them bleed to death. Still, to keep the investment relevant, the amount of damage dealt by long-lasting poisons is likely to be higher than that dealt by short-lasing poisons . . . assuming that the fight goes on that long, and that the target doesn't kill you or heal themselves before the poison stops.


    Taking 10 and Taking 20

    If you have a poisoner's kit, you may take 10 with the Poison skill, assuming that you are not stressed, distracted, threatened, or otherwise impeded from taking 10. Without a poisoner's kit, you may not do so. You may take 20 to create short-lasting poisons, though not to create long-lasting poisons. [Note: Since long-lasting poisons are created well in advance, the time requirement needed to take 20 isn't much of a drawback, and I can't think of a way to make this more elegant.] Note that taking 20 to create a short-lasting poison takes 2 minutes, but the poison only lasts for 1 minute thereafter.

    Synergies

    Heal and Survival each provide a synergy bonus to Poison. Poison provides a synergy bonus to Heal checks made to treat any kind of poison. At the GM's discretion, Poison may provide a synergy bonus to Knowledge: Nature checks made to identify poisons or venomous creatures. (The GM may even extend this bonus to other Knowledge checks to identify venomous creatures.)

    Poisoner's Kit

    A poisoner's kit costs 50 gp, weighs 2 pounds, and provides a +2 circumstance bonus to Poison checks. (It counts as a masterwork tool; there are no other masterwork tools for Poison.) Without a poisoner's kit, it is impossible to take 10 on Poison checks. A poisoner's kit is exhausted after 10 uses. If in a forest, swamp, or other area where the GM agrees that there are suitable raw materials, a character may replenish a poisoner's kit by making a Survival check. This takes 1 hour. If the character succeeds on a DC 15 Survival check, the poisoner's kit may be used one additional time before being exhausted. For every 5 points by which the Survival check exceeds 15, the poisoner's kit gains another use before being exhausted. At the GM's option, a character with suitable access to a tame, friendly, or subdued venomous animal may spend one hour to make a Handle Animal check to replenish a poisoner's kit; a DC 15 check gives the poisoner's kit one additional use, and every 5 points by which the Handle Animal check exceeds 15 allows another additional use. (This does not mean that the poisons created with the poisoner's kit take on the properties of the animal's venom.) At the GM's further option, a character may make a Gather Information check in an urban environment to replenish a poisoner's kit; the DCs and time required are the same as for Survival, above.

    Special Poisoner's Kits

    A poisoner's kit is illegal to own in many, though not all, civilized areas. A disguised poisoner's kit costs an additional 150 gp (total 200), but it is much harder to recognize for what it is. A character attempting to conceal a disguised poisoner's kit gets a +5 circumstance bonus on checks (usually Sleight of Hand, though others may apply) to do so. A licensed poisoner's kit is available in certain areas; licensed poisoner's kits are legal, but since they are meant to keep toxins under control, they are weaker than the real thing. A licensed poisoner's kit costs 75 gp, weighs 2 pounds, and provides a +1 circumstance bonus to Poison checks. This bonus does not stack with the bonus from any other poisoner's kit. A licensed poisoner's kit is sufficient to take 10 on Poison checks. As with a normal poisoner's kit, a licensed poisoner's kit is exhausted after 10 uses, though it may be replenished in the same manner as a normal poisoner's kit. A licensed poisoner's kit may be made in disguised form, but there is usually little benefit to doing so.

    A magical poisoner's kit costs 1,000 gp. It functions as a normal poisoner's kit, but it is never exhausted through normal use. It may be made disguised for an additional 150 gp, as normal; if so, in addition to the usual benefits of a disguised poisoner's kit, it is usually encased in a thin sheet of lead or a similar metal which foils basic divination such as Detect Magic. A licensed magical poisoner's kit also costs 1,000 gp, and it functions as a normal licensed poisoner's kit, but it is never exhausted through normal use.


    Feats

    Note on Metapoison feats: A poison may only be affected by one Metapoison feat at a time, unless stated otherwise. Unless stated otherwise, all metapoisons function in addition to the normal effects of the poison. If a creature is struck by multiple different metapoisons, all of them apply, though as usual, only the most damaging one will do ongoing damage. Metapoisons do not stack with themselves (for instance, a target affected by two doses of unbalancing poison only takes a –6 penalty to DEX, not a –12).

    Spoiler
    Show
    Expert Poisoner
    Prereq: Poison 4 ranks
    Benefit: Your poisons made with the Poison skill affect even creatures who are immune to poison or to Fortitude saves, though such creatures receive a +5 bonus on their Fortitude saves to resist your poisons. This has no effect on poisons you make or use by means other than the Poison skill.
    Special: Once you have 12 or more ranks in Poison, such creatures receive no bonus on their Fortitude saves. This supersedes the normal effects of reaching 12 ranks in Poison.
    [Design notes: A feat is, in my mind, a sufficient cost to be able to say “no, my character concept is NOT useless against an entire large set of enemies.”]

    Deadly Poisoner
    Prereq: Poison 9 ranks
    Benefit: You may create a dose of long-lasting poison that functions as a short-lasting poison. This poison lasts for 24 hours or until it strikes a target, but an affected target must succeed on a Fortitude save (DC = your check result – 5) or take damage as though struck by one of your short-lasting poisons. You may use this feat a number of times per day equal to your Intelligence modifier, minimum 1. Poisons made with this feat count against your limit of long-lasting poisons.
    Special: Other feats, skill tricks, or other special abilities you have that modify short-lasting poisons apply to poisons made through this feat, providing that doing so does not result in a logical contradiction or an absurd result. [Yeah, I know, that last bit is just a really fuzzy bit of CYA, but I'd rather have awkward CYA language in place than create something absurd.]

    Insidious Poisoner
    Prereq: Poison 6 ranks
    Benefit: Your poisons are, at your option, contact poisons rather than injury poisons. When you attack a creature with a weapon coated with a poison you made through the Poison skill, if you miss the target but would have still hit the target's touch AC, the target is exposed to your poison anyway.

    Master Poisoner
    Benefit: Poison is always a class skill for you. If you have previously purchased ranks in Poison as a cross-class skill, you immediately gain additional ranks in Poison as if it had always been a class skill for you. If Poison is already a class skill for any of your classes, you get a +2 bonus to Poison checks. In addition, you can create 2 additional doses of long-lasting poison at once, and your long-lasting poisons affect their targets for 2 additional rounds.
    Special: You may take this feat multiple times. Its effects stack. Every time after the first that you take this feat, you gain the ability to make 2 additional doses of long-lasting poison, your long-lasting poisons last for 2 additional rounds, and you gain a +2 bonus on Poison checks, since Poison will necessarily be a class skill for you.

    Simple Venoms
    Prereq: Poison 6 ranks
    Benefit: At your option, you can make your toxins more stable than normal. Other creatures do not run the risk of exposing themselves to your poisons when using weapons coated with poisons you make through the Poison skill.

    Hasty Venoms
    Prereq: Poison 4 ranks
    Benefit: You can create and apply a short-lasting poison as a swift action, rather than as a standard action. You can do so a number of times per day equal to 1/4 your ranks in Poison, rounded up.

    Durable Venoms
    Prereq: Poison 6 ranks
    Benefit: Poisons you create through the Poison skill are not used up until a target fails their saving throw against them. (For example, if you hit a target with a weapon holding a dose of long-lasting poison and that target succeeds on its saving throw to resist the poison, that dose of poison remains viable.) This does not allow a poison to last longer than it otherwise would if it is not used; short-lasting poisons still last for up to one minute, and long-lasting poisons still last for up to 24 hours.
    Normal: Poisons created through the Poison skill are used up once they strike a target, regardless of whether or not the target resists the poison.
    Special: If a poison you create through the Poison skill somehow has an effect even on a successful save, this feat does not apply to that poison.

    Murderous Poisoner
    Prereq: Poison 9 ranks
    Benefit: When you use a short-lasting poison on a melee weapon, that poison stays viable for the entire round, instead of simply being used up after the first hit. Each hit requires the opponent to make a Fortitude save at the normal DC to resist the poison. Each hit after the first deals 1d6 less poison damage, minimum 1d6. The poison runs out at the end of your turn (attacks made between your turn and the next one, such as attacks of opportunity, do not gain the benefit of that dose of poison).

    Assassin's Poison
    Prereq: Poison 6 ranks, Sneak Attack + 2d6
    Benefit: When you successfully deal sneak attack damage on an attack that delivers a poison made with the Poison skill, the target takes a penalty to the Fortitude save made to resist the poison equal to the number of sneak attack dice you rolled.
    Special: You may use Sudden Strike or Skirmish to qualify for this feat instead of Sneak Attack. If you do, apply the benefit to attacks that successfully deal Sudden Strike damage or Skirmish damage, as appropriate, and base the penalty off of Sudden Strike or Skirmish dice, as appropriate. If you have more than one of Sneak Attack, Sudden Strike, or Skirmish, only the one with the highest number of dice applies to this feat, even if you would get more than one on a given attack.

    Unstoppable Poisoner
    Prereq: Poison 12 ranks
    Benefit: Choose long-lasting or short-lasting poisons. If you choose long-lasting poisons, the first time each encounter that each opponent succeeds on a saving throw to resist one of your long-lasting poisons, that opponent is still affected by the long-lasting poison, but they take only half as much ongoing damage (rounded down). If you choose short-lasting poisons, the first time each encounter that each opponent succeeds on a saving throw to resist one of your short-lasting poisons, that opponent is still affected by the short-lasting poison, but they take only half as much damage (rounded down). This feat does not apply to metapoisons.
    Special: You may take this feat twice. If you do, you gain the benefit both for short-lasting poisons and for long-lasting poisons.

    Toxic Magic
    Prereq: Poison 9 ranks, Spellcraft 2 ranks
    Benefit: Any weapon that you wield that is coated with a dose of poison that you created through the Poison skill is treated as though affected by the Greater Magic Weapon spell, with a caster level equal to your caster level (if any) or your ranks in Poison minus 3, whichever is higher. Other characters wielding your poisoned weapons do not gain this benefit. This is a supernatural effect.

    Lucky Poisoner [Luck]
    Prereq: Poison 4 ranks
    Benefit: You gain one luck reroll per day. (See Complete Scoundrel for information on luck rerolls.) As an immediate action, you can spend one luck reroll to force a target to reroll a saving throw made against one of your poisons created with the Poison skill and take the second result (you may declare that you are using this feat after seeing whether the target succeeds or fails on its save). In addition, if a creature rolls a natural 1 on its Fortitude save against one of your short-lasting poisons, that short-lasting poison does the maximum amount of damage; in other words, treat all of the damage dice that you would normally roll for that poison as showing their highest possible result. (This does not expend a luck reroll.)

    Enervating Poison [Metapoison]
    Prereq: Poison 6 ranks
    Benefit: When you create a long-lasting poison, you may voluntarily accept a –5 penalty to your Poison check to make an enervating poison. A creature affected by an enervating poison takes a –6 penalty to Strength for the duration of the poison. If you accept a –10 penalty instead of a –5 penalty, the target's base speed (all movement modes) is halved while affected by the poison, in addition to taking the penalty to Strength.

    Hallucinogenic Poison [Metapoison]
    Prereq: Poison 9 ranks
    Benefit: When you create a long-lasting poison, you may voluntarily accept a –5 penalty to your Poison check to make a hallucinogenic poison. A creature affected by a hallucinogenic poison treats all other creatures as having concealment (20% miss chance) for the duration of the poison. If you accept a –10 penalty instead of a –5 penalty, the target is also treated as confused (as the spell Confusion) for the duration of the poison, but the poison's duration is halved. This is in addition to the concealment effect.
    Special: Both of these effects are mind-affecting, but if you have the ability to affect creatures normally immune to poison, you also have the ability to affect creatures normally immune to mind-affecting effects with a hallucinogenic poison.

    Unbalancing Poison [Metapoison]
    Prereq: Poison 6 ranks
    Benefit: When you create a long-lasting poison, you may voluntarily accept a –5 penalty to your Poison check to make an unbalancing poison. A creature affected by an unbalancing poison takes a –6 penalty to Dexterity for the duration of the poison. If you voluntarily accept a –10 penalty instead of a –5 penalty, whenever the target takes damage (other than your ongoing poison damage) while affected by the unbalancing poison, the target must succeed on a Balance check (DC = damage taken) or fall prone. This is in addition to the penalty to Dexterity.

    Rattling Poison [Metapoison]
    Prereq: Poison 6 ranks
    Benefit: When you create a long-lasting poison, you may voluntarily accept a –5 penalty to your Poison check to make a rattling poison. A creature affected by a rattling poison loses their Dexterity bonus to AC, if any, for the duration of the poison. If you voluntarily accept a –10 penalty instead of a –5 penalty, while the target is affected by the poison, the target deals half damage with all attacks and cannot confirm critical hits. This is in addition to losing their Dexterity bonus to AC.

    Shocking Poison [Metapoison]
    Prereq: Poison 12 ranks
    Benefit: When you create a long-lasting poison, you may voluntarily accept a –5 penalty to your Poison check to make a shocking poison. A creature affected by a shocking poison treats any energy resistance and/or damage reduction it possesses as 10 points lower, minimum 0. If appropriate, this penalty to resistance is applied before applying the ongoing damage from this poison, so if a target has resistance to poison damage, this poison will at least partially ignore it. If you accept a –10 penalty instead of a –5 penalty, the target cannot benefit from magical healing while affected by the shocking poison. (This does mean that magical healing cannot provide a free Heal check against a shocking poison, though mundane Heal checks still function.) This is in addition to the penalty to resistance and/or damage reduction.

    Disorienting Poison [Metapoison]
    Prereq: Poison 9 ranks
    Benefit: When you create a short-lasting poison, you may voluntarily accept a –5 penalty to your Poison check to make a disorienting poison. A creature affected by a disorienting poison provokes an attack of opportunity from one adjacent ally of your choice. If you accept a –10 penalty instead of a –5 penalty, a creature affected by a disorienting poison instead provokes attacks of opportunity from each of your allies, including you (though only allies who are in position to take such an attack of opportunity may do so).


    Skill Tricks

    Spoiler
    Show
    Painless Poisoner
    Prereq: Poison 6 ranks, Heal 4 ranks
    Benefit: At your option, you can make your poisons painless. Creatures affected by your long-lasting poisons must succeed on a Heal, Poison, or Sense Motive check (DC = 10 + your ranks in Poison) to notice that they are affected . . . until they fall unconscious, of course. This Heal, Poison, or Sense Motive check takes no action and is made automatically when exposed to your poison. This has no effect on your short-lasting poisons or on poisons you make or use by means other than the Poison skill. Furthermore, at your option, you may make poisons you create by means of the Poison skill (including, but not limited to, short-lasting poisons) do nonlethal damage instead of lethal damage, determined when each poison is created. Poisons that you choose to make nonlethal may be made painless, as above, but this is not a requirement.

    Intuitive Poisoner
    Prereq: Poison 4 ranks
    Benefit: You may use Wisdom instead of Intelligence for Poison checks. The number of long-lasting poisons you may create, as well as their duration, is based on Wisdom, not Intelligence. You may treat any feats or skill tricks with Poison as a prerequisite that reference Intelligence as referencing Wisdom instead. [Note: In essence, treat anything related to the Poison skill that usually uses INT as using WIS instead. I'm just trying not to say "any" quite so broadly.]

    Brutal Poisoner
    Prereq: Poison 9 ranks
    Benefit: Once per encounter, when you hit a target with a short-lasting poison, you may reroll any dice of damage done by the poison and take the better result. You may declare that you are using this skill trick after you have rolled the initial damage dice and seen the total.

    Poison Splash
    Prereq: Poison 6 ranks
    Benefit: Once per encounter, when you hit a target with a ranged attack that carries a dose of your short-lasting poison and that target fails its Fortitude save, you may force any one opponent adjacent to that target to make a Reflex save (DC equal to the Fortitude save associated with the poison) or take half as much damage as the initial target took, rounded down. You may declare that you are using this skill trick after you determine whether the initial target succeeds or fails at its Fortitude save. If the poison has any effects other than damage, the secondary target does not suffer those effects.

    Instant Poison
    Prereq: Poison 4 ranks
    Benefit: Twice per encounter, as a full-round action, you may make a Poison check to craft a short-lasting poison, apply it to a weapon, and make a single attack with that weapon at your full normal attack bonus. If you make a melee attack, this attack does not provoke an attack of opportunity from the target, but it provokes attacks of opportunity from opponents other than the target. If you make a ranged attack, this attack provokes attacks of opportunity as usual for ranged attacks.
    Special: You may take this skill trick more than once. Each time you take it after the first, you may use it one more time per encounter.

    Ingenious Poisoner
    Prereq: Poison 9 ranks, at least one Metapoison feat
    Benefit: Once per day, when you create a poison through the Poison skill, you may create a metapoison that you normally do not have access to. To do so, you must accept a –10 penalty to your Poison check, but the metapoison you create functions as though you had only accepted a –5 penalty. For example, if you do not normally have access to the Unbalancing Poison metapoison feat, you could accept a –10 penalty to your Poison check to create an unbalancing poison, but a target affected by that poison would only take a penalty to Dexterity and would not also be forced to make Balance checks to avoid falling prone. [Future-proofing note: If there are ever Metapoisons that don't follow the pattern of "–5 penalty for one effect, –10 for a bigger effect," then this skill trick must be modified accordingly.]


    PrC: Golden Syringe
    Spoiler
    Show

    Prereqs: Poison 8 ranks, any one Metapoison feat, any skill trick with Poison as a prerequisite
    Skills: Appraise, Bluff, Climb, Disable Device, Disguise, Heal, Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Poison, Search, Sleight of Hand, Spot, Survival, Tumble, Use Magic Device, Use Rope
    Skill Points: 6 + INT
    HD: d8
    Level Base Attack Bonus Fort Save Ref Save Will Save Special
    1st +0 +2 +2 +0 Expert Poisoner, Virulence
    2nd +1 +3 +3 +0 Fundamentals of Poison
    3rd +2 +3 +3 +1 Subtle Mixture
    4th +3 +4 +4 +1 Metapoison Mastery
    5th +3 +4 +4 +1 The Cure Is Worse

    Expert Poisoner (Ex): At first level, you gain Expert Poisoner as a bonus feat. If you already have Expert Poisoner, you may instead take a metapoison feat for which you qualify.

    Virulence (Ex): Your poisons have never been nice, but they're getting downright nasty. Starting at first level, you may add twice your class level to the ongoing damage dealt by your long-lasting poisons, and you may add the higher of your INT modifier or your WIS modifier to the damage dealt by your short-lasting poisons.

    Fundamentals of Poison (Ex): At second level, you become utterly comfortable with the toxic nature of all things. You may take 10 on Poison checks, even if stress or distraction would normally prevent you from doing so, and even if you do not have a poisoner's kit on hand. You may also replenish a poisoner's kit in any environment. Finally, you gain a bonus to Poison checks equal to your class level.

    Subtle Mixture (Ex): All it takes is a little touch to keep two poisons from mixing. Starting at third level, you may have up to two additional doses of poison created through the Poison skill at once on a single weapon that is not a piece of ammunition. Once per encounter, you may apply both a short-lasting poison and a long-lasting poison to a target as a result of a single hit, though both poisons must be present on the weapon beforehand.

    Metapoison Mastery (Ex): You never metapoison you didn't like. At fourth level, choose a metapoison feat you possess. When you choose to use that metapoison feat, you gain the benefit associated with the –10 penalty even when you only take the –5 penalty to your Poison check. You may only have one such dose of poison prepared at once (though you may prepare more doses of that metapoison at the usual rate of penalty, if desired).

    The Cure Is Worse (Ex): You know a special way to remove a poison, but your targets will wish you hadn't. At fifth level, you may prepare a special toxin called the Golden Syringe, a terrifying substance for which your class is named. This is prepared like a long-lasting poison and takes up one of your slots of long-lasting poison. The Golden Syringe is only effective against targets who are already suffering from one of your long-lasting poisons. If you hit a creature suffering from one of your long-lasting poisons with a dose of Golden Syringe and the target fails its Fortitude save (DC = your Poison check minus 5, as is typical for long-lasting poisons), that creature effectively suffers all of the effects of one of your long-lasting poisons at once. Choose one of your long-lasting poisons already affecting the target; the target takes damage equal to the ongoing damage being dealt by the long-lasting poison times the number of rounds that long-lasting poison had remaining. If the target has already taken at least one instance of ongoing damage from the long-lasting poison, then the creature takes this full amount of damage; if the target has been hit with a long-lasting poison and failed its saving throw but has not yet taken damage from that long-lasting poison (usually because its turn has not yet come up), then the target instead takes half as much damage from the Golden Syringe. In either case, if the target fails their saving throw against the Golden Syringe, the long-lasting poison is purged from the victim's system after the damage is dealt, as it effectively hyper-accelerates the poison's effects on the body through to completion. You may only have one dose of Golden Syringe prepared at once, and a creature that succeeds on its saving throw against it is immune to your Golden Syringe for 24 hours (this supersedes your usual ability to ignore immunity to poisons).
    Last edited by Zaq; 2014-04-26 at 05:32 PM.
    In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers ALL HAIL KING TORG!

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Roc View Post
    Gentlefolk, learn from Zaq's example, and his suffering. Remember, seven out of eleven players who use truenamer lose their ability to taste ice cream.
    Please come participate in the (rebooted) Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground E6 Appetizer Edition! Current round: round IV!

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Gnorman's Avatar

    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Cascadia
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Poison [D&D 3.5 Skill] [Second draft]

    Oh man this is really cool. I love poison, and you've addressed some of my biggest issues with it in an elegant way. A few of the feats are a little narrow, and I'd prefer to see things like enervating, hallucinogenic, etc., as open to all poisoners but with a penalty to the skill DC. But otherwise, this is great stuff.

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Ettin in the Playground
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Poison [D&D 3.5 Skill] [Second draft]

    Let's just have a quick bump now that the forums are alive again. (Hooray!) And to make this not totally pointless, I did add a skill trick (Ingenious Poisoner), I cleaned up some language here and there, I added some examples, I added a couple feats (Durable Venoms, Lucky Poisoner), and I added a magical poisoner's kit for folks who don't want to take the trouble of constantly refreshing their kit supply. Oh, and also a PrC! I'm a little shaky on the balance of the PrC, so I'd really, really appreciate some feedback on it.

    Gnorman, I appreciate the sentiment. I did add a skill trick that lets you partially replicate a metapoison once per day, though I'm worried about making it too broad. I might get cold feet and go back on it if someone points out any particular abuses that it opens up, but it should probably be okay. Which feats do you think are too narrow, specifically? I'm a novice homebrewer at best, and I'm totally open to suggestion or to critique.

    I'm trying to think of how to elegantly allow folks to quick-draw their own poisoned weapons without either making Quick Draw into a feat tax or turning Poison into the new gnomish quickrazors for the purposes of Iaijutsu users. But since a given weapon can only hold two doses, most folks who use this as a primary strategy are going to want to have at least three or four poisoned weapons prepared (which is one reason the Toxic Magic feat exists; it's not fair to force those secondary weapons to suck, after all. The other reason it exists is to guarantee Poison-users baseline GMW bonuses regardless of the party, but I digress). I mean, I guess I could just remove the limit of two doses per weapon, but I'm pretty sure I had SOME reason for putting it in place, even if I don't specifically recall that reason right now. If I make it a feat, it's a feat tax; if I make it a skill trick or a basic function of the skill, then it makes Iaijutsu way the hell too easy. Any thoughts on that issue? Or on anything here, really?
    Last edited by Zaq; 2014-04-02 at 06:40 PM.
    In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers ALL HAIL KING TORG!

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Roc View Post
    Gentlefolk, learn from Zaq's example, and his suffering. Remember, seven out of eleven players who use truenamer lose their ability to taste ice cream.
    Please come participate in the (rebooted) Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground E6 Appetizer Edition! Current round: round IV!

  4. - Top - End - #4
    Orc in the Playground
     
    HalflingPirate

    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Poison [D&D 3.5 Skill] [Second draft]

    I want to start with one major problem. Skill checks scale a lot faster than saves. Thus, people that are going to take any time to optimize it are going to very quickly have unsavable poisons. You may want to play with the DCs at 10 + skill ranks instead of check - 5. I do still like the style of the skill checks to damage, and in general, it seems pretty reasonable. I do like where the metapoison feats are going, just the balancing issues you leave open with your initial path worry me.
    http://superrunner2003.wordpress.com/ - A blog of my personal Pathfinder homebrew material

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Ettin in the Playground
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Poison [D&D 3.5 Skill] [Second draft]

    Quote Originally Posted by Kamai View Post
    I want to start with one major problem. Skill checks scale a lot faster than saves. Thus, people that are going to take any time to optimize it are going to very quickly have unsavable poisons. You may want to play with the DCs at 10 + skill ranks instead of check - 5. I do still like the style of the skill checks to damage, and in general, it seems pretty reasonable. I do like where the metapoison feats are going, just the balancing issues you leave open with your initial path worry me.
    This is true, but I knew that going into this. Someone who focuses on poison SHOULD be succeeding more than they fail. This is intentional. And do recall that until you start adding Metapoison feats (and taking hefty penalties), these poisons are ONLY doing damage. Nothing more.

    Further limitations to consider:

    • Ongoing poison doesn't stack. You'll only get one damaging instance per enemy, tops.
    • It's hard to use short-lasting poison in combat. Most of the poison damage you'll be doing will be ongoing, and therefore limited to a single dose per target.
    • You can only have so many doses available at once, and you need a way to switch between them if the dose on your primary weapon isn't enough (they succeed on their save, or there are more targets, or whatever).


    So yeah, you're likely to succeed. The question is what happens once you do. And likely, you're just applying ongoing damage to one or two enemies, and that's it, unless you invest heavily. If you want to be doing really heavy damage with the material I've written here, barring Golden Syringe, you're going to be focused on either finding ways to get short-lasting poisons into combat (which has limitations and costs) or on spreading long-lasting poisons to as many targets as you can (which isn't as efficient as spiking a target into the ground and removing them as a threat).

    I accept your concern that Poison users will be successful more often than not, but I've already accounted for that. If you invest heavily into something, it SHOULD be able to work most of the time.
    In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers ALL HAIL KING TORG!

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Roc View Post
    Gentlefolk, learn from Zaq's example, and his suffering. Remember, seven out of eleven players who use truenamer lose their ability to taste ice cream.
    Please come participate in the (rebooted) Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground E6 Appetizer Edition! Current round: round IV!

  6. - Top - End - #6
    Ettin in the Playground
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Poison [D&D 3.5 Skill] [Second draft]

    Quick update: I rejiggered Golden Syringe a bit. Specifically, I put Virulence at 1 and Fundamentals of Poison at 2, respectively (they were originally at 2 and 1), and I reduced the required ranks in Poison from 9 to 8, in order to allow it to be entered at level 6. I also added a little bit of clarifying language to Deadly Poisoner.
    Last edited by Zaq; 2014-04-08 at 02:47 PM.
    In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers ALL HAIL KING TORG!

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Roc View Post
    Gentlefolk, learn from Zaq's example, and his suffering. Remember, seven out of eleven players who use truenamer lose their ability to taste ice cream.
    Please come participate in the (rebooted) Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground E6 Appetizer Edition! Current round: round IV!

  7. - Top - End - #7
    Ettin in the Playground
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Poison [D&D 3.5 Skill] [Second draft]

    Added some clarifying language to a few feats.
    In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers ALL HAIL KING TORG!

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Roc View Post
    Gentlefolk, learn from Zaq's example, and his suffering. Remember, seven out of eleven players who use truenamer lose their ability to taste ice cream.
    Please come participate in the (rebooted) Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground E6 Appetizer Edition! Current round: round IV!

  8. - Top - End - #8
    Orc in the Playground
     
    EvilClericGuy

    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    San Diego
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Poison [D&D 3.5 Skill] [Second draft]

    This is really cool. I like the golden syringe a lot, though that pun hurt.

  9. - Top - End - #9
    Ettin in the Playground
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Poison [D&D 3.5 Skill] [Second draft]

    Thanks for the kind words, Leviting.

    I tweaked a couple feats; I lowered the Balance DC on Unbalancing Poison from 10 + damage dealt to simply damage dealt, so as to give people a prayer of actually succeeding on it (it's hard enough as it is). I also changed the bigger effect on Rattling Poison: now, instead of taking a –2 on attack rolls and skill checks, the victim simply does half damage with attacks, though I kept the bit about them being unable to confirm crits. That's more in line with what I think the feat should be; originally, I was just casting about randomly for something to add onto the "can't crit" portion, since I knew that wasn't enough on its own to justify the increased penalty. I think that what I've come up is more in line with that theme, really.
    Last edited by Zaq; 2014-04-26 at 05:36 PM.
    In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers ALL HAIL KING TORG!

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Roc View Post
    Gentlefolk, learn from Zaq's example, and his suffering. Remember, seven out of eleven players who use truenamer lose their ability to taste ice cream.
    Please come participate in the (rebooted) Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground E6 Appetizer Edition! Current round: round IV!

  10. - Top - End - #10
    Bugbear in the Playground
    Join Date
    Dec 2006

    Default Re: Poison [D&D 3.5 Skill] [Second draft]

    This is pretty cool. Some thoughts:

    • The cost of entry for this seems extremely low compared to other ways of reliably delivering this much damage. Like, if this were non-homebrew, every character who wanted to deal damage with a weapon ever would at the very least max ranks in this skill. Not necessarily a problem, since weapon-users could use some love, but this does seem awfully easy to combine with other sources of damage compared to existing stuff.
    • You say you want long-lasting poison to deal more but slower damage than short. But starting at the 4d6 level, even a single damage instance from the long stuff does more damage than a dose of the short. Is that intentional?

  11. - Top - End - #11
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    jqavins's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Location
    Helendale, CA
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Poison [D&D 3.5 Skill] [Second draft]

    I've been doing some work on revamping poisons myself, and I may well incorporate some of this, though I am taking a different basic approach.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zaq View Post
    If the target of a long-lasting poison receives magical healing, the source of the magical healing may make a Heal check to stop the poison (as part of the same action used to apply the magical healing).
    What about Neutralize Poison? I assume it still works as written, i.e. no heal check needed?
    The DC is the same, but the one doing the healing receives a bonus on the Heal check equal to the spell level of the healing effect (for example, Cure Moderate Wounds is a level 2 spell, so it would apply a +2 bonus to the Heal check). If the effect is not a spell, apply the equivalent to the spell level (power level, utterance level, etc.), if possible. [This is poorly worded. Help?]
    You could just write "... the one doing the healing receives a bonus on the Heal check equal to the spell level (or equivalent) of the healing effect" and leave it at that.
    for example, a creature who has magically been granted fast healing before your poison took effect would not receive a free Heal check..."
    Once again, I assume that Neutralize Poison still gives temporary immunity, as written? What about those cases where the poisoner can affect even creatures not normally poisonable; would that override Neutralize Poison's conferred immunity?
    Deadly Poisoner
    ...
    Special: Other feats, skill tricks, or other special abilities you have that modify short-lasting poisons apply to poisons made through this feat, providing that doing so does not result in a logical contradiction or an absurd result. [Yeah, I know, that last bit is just a really fuzzy bit of CYA, but I'd rather have awkward CYA language in place than create something absurd.]
    "Other feats, skill tricks, or other special abilities you have that modify short-lasting poisons generally apply to poisons made through this feat (though the GM will exercise discretion.)
    -- Joe
    “Give a man a fire and he's warm for a day, but set fire to him and he's warm for the rest of his life.”
    -- Terry Pratchet

    Always remember that anything posted on the internet is, in a practical if not a legal sense, in the public domain.
    You are completely welcome to use anything I post here, or I wouldn't post it.

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •