Why are the gods scared of Pandorym?

[AnonymousPepper]

Actually, what with his portfolio including both psionics and secrets, wouldn't Sardior - as an example - know of the Annulus and its location?

[Eldan]

It's quite possible no one knows where it is, if it was stuffed into, say, the deepest layers of Pandemonium.

[Erik Vale]

Actually, what with his portfolio including both psionics and secrets, wouldn't Sardior - as an example - know of the Annulus and its location?

Due to Psionics, maybe, several months before it get's used.

Secrets, only if the location is actually a secret. Otherwise you need a god/des of knowledge or loss.

[Yuki Akuma]

I believe Mind Flayers have deities, don't they?

Not as far as I know! They have Elder Brains, some of which could potentially have divine ranks, but I don't think they actually worship any gods per se.

[Eldan]

Not as far as I know! They have Elder Brains, some of which could potentially have divine ranks, but I don't think they actually worship any gods per se.

They have one, Ilsensine.

[Yuki Akuma]

They have one, Ilsensine.

Huh.

Why does she have the Magic domain.

[Eldan]

Huh.

Why does she have the Magic domain.

Probably for lack of a psionic domain. I'd say it's mostly due to WotC's policy that books can't cross reference each other, so they couldn't give him anything from the XPH or complete divine? Maybe? Most of the write-up is probably also from AD&D sources, when psionics were entirely different anyway.
I've found hA list which also gives it Dream, Domination, Mind and Tyranny, which are all certainly fitting.


I think I've read some theories that it is basically an Elder Brain that grew so large, it achieved divinity.

[FenAseph]

Also a non-split pandorym might have the power of an over deity (where is this info from btw), which makes it even more unbelievable that the succeeded. And even though the Pandorym might be as strong as AO (which I personally find hard to believe) he still has full command over his own sphere, just like Asmodeus has over hell. Meaning that he could banish and keep out the pandorym if he so wished... AFAIK.

And I've thought about it. Unsplitted Pandorym has a power level of an overdeity because it takes a tremendous power in order to destroy all the gods. Hence the comparison with Ao.

What I also find unbelievably is that the mystryl weave might have no max level spells, we just know that the highest level spell was 12, but we also know that the elves' high magic could surpass what was doable by level 12 and its fair to believe that the imaskari had their own form of ritual magic (godwall). But if they were able to split and imprison pandorym I find it unbelievable that the gods can’t stop the pandorym. It might be some form of rock, paper scissors, but still i find this unlikely.

Maybe you're right. Indeed, if Imaskari were able to split Pandorym, the gods should be able to do the same.
But here's the thing. Pandorym is an Elder Evil and is therefore immune to the power of the gods. Of course the gods can use magic instead of divine powers, but perhaps is no longer possible the splitting of Pandorym.
I think Imaskari managed this because they had several elements: a highly developed magic, the help of a power and the surprise factor. Pandorym did not expect it.
Imaskari had used magic from other planes, they were not limited by the Weave or Shadow Weave. I´ve read that Imaskarcana can work even without the Weave/Shadow Weave.
I would not be surprised if Imaskari had used magic (or its equivalent) of the reality of Pandorym. Somehow that makes sense, Pandorym was divided using his own weapons.

[Melcar]

And I've thought about it. Unsplitted Pandorym has a power level of an overdeity because it takes a tremendous power in order to destroy all the gods. Hence the comparison with Ao.



Maybe you're right. Indeed, if Imaskari were able to split Pandorym, the gods should be able to do the same.
But here's the thing. Pandorym is an Elder Evil and is therefore immune to the power of the gods. Of course the gods can use magic instead of divine powers, but perhaps is no longer possible the splitting of Pandorym.
I think Imaskari managed this because they had several elements: a highly developed magic, the help of a power and the surprise factor. Pandorym did not expect it.
Imaskari had used magic from other planes, they were not limited by the Weave or Shadow Weave. I´ve read that Imaskarcana can work even without the Weave/Shadow Weave.
I would not be surprised if Imaskari had used magic (or its equivalent) of the reality of Pandorym. Somehow that makes sense, Pandorym was divided using his own weapons.

Please correct my if I'm wrong, but I remember something about them being tought magic by the fay interlopers. A highly powerful magic. I think ist the same the elves used, but unsure of the details (which by the way seems to get retcon'ed every edition ) But it was something about seelies or something from feywild... I think.

[Urpriest]

I believe Mind Flayers have deities, don't they?

Yes, and if the mind flayers have lost it, their deities certainly have.

[TeslaJr]

What I have never understood was how can a being be more powerful than all the gods combined and still be split and imprisoned by mortal artificers? How did they even get information about this creature? And since, to my knowledge, AO has complete power within his own crystal sphere could this Pandorym pose any threat? Personally I have never liked the idea of something that powerful and yet weak enough to be imprisoned by mortals. That to me is strange. And also the fact that somehow the Imaskar was more clever that the gods. And even more powerful. I don’t know what level spells they cast to create the godwall, but if they can imprison pandorym and the deities can’t do nothing about the pandorym then why did the imaskar need to get such a being in the first place when they were obviously more powerful than the gods?

The whole thing makes no sense to me.

Well, during the time of the Netheril Empire, a single caster was able to take on a Greater Deity. IIRC, his name was Karsus, and using a high level spell he stripped (or nearly, I can't remember) Mystryl of her powers (and turned himself into a god for a few minutes). So, considering that the Imaskar had access to an entire magical empire full of crazy powerful wizards, it does make sense that they could split Pandorym where the gods couldn't. Besides, as someone else pointed out, Elder Evils are immune to divine power.

[Erik Vale]

Yes, and if the mind flayers have lost it, their deities certainly have.

I'm not sure if that was a deliberate pun or not, but that had me laughing for a while.

[Grollub]

If sure from a gods point of view, if Pandorym destroys "the world" big frakkin deal.. there are an infinite number of realities. Scrub 1 off the list, and move on.

[Silva Stormrage]

If sure from a gods point of view, if Pandorym destroys "the world" big frakkin deal.. there are an infinite number of realities. Scrub 1 off the list, and move on.

Considering that Pandorym's goal is actually to specifically kill off the gods. I think they would mind. Like literally that is its only purpose is to kill off the gods. Its just speculation (Although probably accurate speculation) that it will then proceed to destroy the multiverse.

[Rubik]

Maybe Pandorym is what happened to our world. Humans used to believe in (and even practice) magic and mysticism, and according to certain *ahem* histories, gods and monsters of all kinds walked the Earth. But now? Nothing. No magic, no monsters, no gods.

Coincidence? I think not.

[iceman10058]

Maybe Pandorym is what happened to our world. Humans used to believe in (and even practice) magic and mysticism, and according to certain *ahem* histories, gods and monsters of all kinds walked the Earth. But now? Nothing. No magic, no monsters, no gods.

Coincidence? I think not.

nah, i firmly believe that us modern day humans don't believe in it enough. and without that belief, no super cool powers.

[FenAseph]

I see the OP insist on the Annulus thing. I repeat, the full Pandorym may be non-psionic. Even if the full Pandorym is psionic, we do not know what psionic powers it has. I mean, it could have far greater powers than level 9 powers. Maybe of an almost infinite level.
And its non-body can be destroyed by Annulus? It seems to me unlikely that a non-body can be reduced to dust. Its body is non-physical.
What strategy will adopt Pandorym against the gods, when it will be free?
I suspect that it will disrupt both the Weave and the Shadow Weave.

[FenAseph]

One thing I never understood is how Pandorym alone cannot escape from the crystalline prison. I mean, even its mind shard is already an epic creature. And the mind shard is only a thought of Pandorym's mind. Its full mind's power must be beyond imagination. And the full mind is contained in the crystal. Pandorym should be able to break the crystal from interior, without external help.
I think the only reason this does not happen is that the WotC did not want that.

[Gemini476]

One thing I never understood is how Pandorym alone cannot escape from the crystalline prison. I mean, even its mind shard is already an epic creature. And the mind shard is only a thought of Pandorym's mind. Its full mind's power must be beyond imagination. And the full mind is contained in the crystal. Pandorym should be able to break the crystal from interior, without external help.
I think the only reason this does not happen is that the WotC did not want that.

The Mind Shard is only released if the prison is already broken. Also,

• The crystalline prison has hardness 30, 300 hit points, and spell resistance 40. It is immune to acid, cold, electricity, and fire. Sonic attacks deal double damage, ignoring hardness as usual.

The Mind Shard only has ML 20, so SR stops it short.

Also also, while inside the prison you are pretty much "blotted from existence" and have no power over things outside it. That Pandorym can send out Mind Shards when it is damaged is testament to his power.



You necromancy is powerful, oh servant of the World Born Dead. I must caution you from continuing on this dark path.

[squiggit]

Considering that Pandorym's goal is actually to specifically kill off the gods. I think they would mind. Like literally that is its only purpose is to kill off the gods.

Well technically its goal is to fulfill its contract because of its code of honor (which is why mechanus is involved).

Its just speculation (Although probably accurate speculation) that it will then proceed to destroy the multiverse.

Only if for whatever reason it can't return home normally.

Elder Evils are immune to divine power.

This is the part about Elder Evils that always got me. Their whole design fits for things like Atropus and Pandorym.. but the way Zargon is just described as immune to gods... just because and the way fairly low-end threats (for elder evils) can still destroy the world with their signs always seemed odd to me.

[FenAseph]

Also also, while inside the prison you are pretty much "blotted from existence" and have no power over things outside it. That Pandorym can send out Mind Shards when it is damaged is testament to his power.

But then how was Pandorym able to enslave Lucather Majii, if it have no power over things outside of the prison? If Pandorym can do that, then it should be able to shatter the crystal from inside.

[Idran]

Probably for lack of a psionic domain. I'd say it's mostly due to WotC's policy that books can't cross reference each other, so they couldn't give him anything from the XPH or complete divine? Maybe? Most of the write-up is probably also from AD&D sources, when psionics were entirely different anyway.
I've found hA list which also gives it Dream, Domination, Mind and Tyranny, which are all certainly fitting.

Sorry to respond to an old post, but I only found the referral just now. That domain actually is straight out of XPH, which gave Ilsensine Evil, Law, Knowledge, Magic, and Mind (page 222). I try and incorporate as much published stuff as I can across all editions except where it makes absolutely no sense or I simply can't make different edition stuff fit together, so I left it when I swapped the domains to Pathfinder domains, but now that you bring it up, it really doesn't fit that much, no; I probably ought to change that one.

[Ramza00]

What I have never understood was how can a being be more powerful than all the gods combined and still be split and imprisoned by mortal artificers? How did they even get information about this creature? And since, to my knowledge, AO has complete power within his own crystal sphere could this Pandorym pose any threat? Personally I have never liked the idea of something that powerful and yet weak enough to be imprisoned by mortals. That to me is strange. And also the fact that somehow the Imaskar was more clever that the gods. And even more powerful. I don’t know what level spells they cast to create the godwall, but if they can imprison pandorym and the deities can’t do nothing about the pandorym then why did the imaskar need to get such a being in the first place when they were obviously more powerful than the gods?

The whole thing makes no sense to me.

This post happen a few months ago but let me try to answer it.

Just because something is extremely powerful, something that has
attack= god level attack plus 2
damage = godlevel HP plus 2
ac= god level ac plus 2
hit points = god level HP * 10
regen = god level, even epic weapons and damage caused by divine sources is non lethal
fast healing god level HP
etc

Even if he has all this does not mean he is all knowing with nfinite senses. Find a way to get pass his senses and then puny mortals can do their epic spellcasting and imprision him, since epic spellcasting has no real limits instead fundamentally changing the rules of the universe. The gods do not have that luxury since pandorym can see them.

Perhaps pandorym could not see humans for our energy was so insignificant but the gods so vast. Humans imprison pandorym and brought part of his beyond the mortal realm being into the mortal realm. Eventually pandorym evolved and now can see the mortals in the mortal realm as well, part of him is infinite and unimaginable since he is not of here, but part of him is now in the mortal plane touching it and thus being affected by it. His avatars are epic level threats like his mind shard and his sphere of annihilation body and these threats will affect humans and if the great evil is unlock pandorym will destroy all.

[Ramza00]

Put another way Pandorym is effectively sauron from the lord of the rings in the third age. He has all the power, nothing on middle earth can stop him (the vallar and eru illuvatar do not count since they are not of middle earth and are unable or unwilling to touch middle earth during the third age.). The only way to beat him is to destroy the ring. The only reason the ring is destroyed is that sauron who power is so vast and overwhelming did not have the foresight that they may attack this way.

[Tvtyrant]

Or possibly Pandorym enjoys the tension? What if we assume that something unbelievable powerful had a destiny to wipe out existence, but the thing itself gets bored easily? Pandorym allows itself to be bested just before its resurrection because is savors the inevitability of its victory more that way. It allowed itself to be defeated in the first place after killing many gods, and will be back when the thrill of waiting wears off.

[Rubik]

It allowed itself to be defeated in the first place after killing many gods, and will be back when the thrill of waiting wears off.

There is something seriously wrong with that phrase.

[Tvtyrant]

There is something seriously wrong with that phrase.

If I changed the word from "waiting" to "anticipation" would you say the same? How much better is Christmas or a kids birthday because we hype it up? Why is a boxed present better then just handing someone something?

Waiting makes the sugar sweeter!

[Coidzor]

Pandorym has a deicide denial fetish which makes when it does get released to kill deities all the sweeter?

Kinky.

[atemu1234]

Pandorym has a deicide denial fetish which makes when it does get released to kill deities all the sweeter?

Kinky.

Isn't it separated from its body, and while separate, cannot break out of its prison, even though, if combined, they could?

[TeslaJr]

Isn't it separated from its body, and while separate, cannot break out of its prison, even though, if combined, they could?

If ever combined Pandorym would shred whatever pantheon of gods you are using and then, if prevented from leaving by some stupid mortal, it would rip apart the Material plane like a 300lb linebacker through a sheet of wet toilet paper.