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2014-04-15, 11:51 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2007
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- On Paper
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Re: Captain America: the Winter Soldier *SPOILERS*
I agree.
The X-Men as a metaphor becomes more strained the more other superpowers there are.
Like, a Mutant could deal a considerable amount of damage if they wanted to, so people fear all mutants, and you can explore that Fear.
However, Tony Stark, Reed Richards, Hank Pym, and Victor Von Doom have just as much, if not MORE potential to do harm than those mutants.
It seems like a bizzare dichotomy. Did you get your powers because of a genetic mutation? Hated and Feared. Did you get your powers through exposure to an exploding Alien Wish Machine, everybody loves you.
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2014-04-15, 01:10 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2007
Re: Captain America: the Winter Soldier *SPOILERS*
Ah, but while the second part could happen to anyone, the first part marks you as a separate 'other'. The Bigot(tm) can picture himself going to space and getting blasted with gamma rays, but cannot picture himself being born as anything other than what he is. Thus he can sympathise with the former but not with the latter.
(I tried to give a good RL example - I can think of several - but can't work my way through a whole one without running into Board Rules issues. Maybe something out of Jane Austen would do, but I don't know that canon well enough).
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2014-04-15, 02:37 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2011
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- Canada
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Re: Captain America: the Winter Soldier *SPOILERS*
Tony Stark is Ironman, a hero who saved his life thanks to his ingenuity and a box of scraps. People praise his cleverness and love him.
Iron Man is an song about a man who was genetically turned into a metallic man when he was sent back in time. People assume he was naturally born a metal monster and fear him.
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2014-04-15, 02:49 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2008
Re: Captain America: the Winter Soldier *SPOILERS*
Well they ignore him and think he's a weird statue. Then he kills everyone, so I'd say they have a good right to fear him at that point.
Though, looking at some of the crazy ridiculous damage that mutants have done in Marvel, I can definitely see why there are a subset of people against them.
Though, honestly, I'd be surprised if there wasn't a very large group of people against all super powers. Read what happens in the Marvel Universe for 1 year. How many entire cities are destroyed? Or when Magneto sunk the entire East Coast. Or Onslaught, everything with Onslaught. Or even that well known Xavier fellow who can control anyone's mind anywhere in the world with his machine. Hell man, that world is terrifying.
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2014-04-15, 03:48 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2006
Re: Captain America: the Winter Soldier *SPOILERS*
I think a large part of the problem is how mutants are in some way considered a seperate specie.. recall for a moment how messed up people can get over issues like color, religion or orientation.. and magnify that with how much more different mutants are.
thnx to Starwoof for the fine avatar
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2014-04-15, 04:37 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jun 2008
Re: Captain America: the Winter Soldier *SPOILERS*
When I first saw/read X-Men, I kind of assumed it was separate from the other comics... precisely because it didn't make much sense for there to be government offices against mutants while completely ignoring superheroes. How exactly do people know that Spider-Man isn't a mutant, and why has nobody accused him of being one once? Why exactly did the Fantastic Four tower not get a visit by sentinels when they were out mutant-kidnapping?
How do people know that the madman electrifying people into ash in town square is a mutant (and running around yelling "Mutant!") as opposed to a normal person who got their powers from an electrical plant explosion?SpoilerThank you to zimmerwald1915 for the Gustave avatar.
The full set is here.
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original image
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2014-04-15, 04:48 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2012
Re: Captain America: the Winter Soldier *SPOILERS*
The only heroes I'd like to see Marvel regain the rights to are the Fantastic Four, both because I'm skeptical with FOX's ability to use the characters and setting effectively and because they could fit into the MCU fairly easily.
Better still, the MCU already has a team of superheroes - they've done that. They can do something with the FF that I'd really like to see, a family of explorers... Doctor Who with Superheroes.
I'd rather not see Wolverine and the Avengers.
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2014-04-15, 05:53 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2011
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- Canada
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Re: Captain America: the Winter Soldier *SPOILERS*
All these questions actually bring up one of my own. Why NOT have stuff like that happen? It'd be cool!
Yeah, we've...we've seen what Fox can do with it's IP. And consider that their Human Torch is our Captain America, and realize JUST how bad the directing must of been. Because we know now that Chris Evans, he can ACT, damnit. So his role as Johnny is NOT his fault.
And yes, the less Wolverine-itus we have, the better.
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2014-04-15, 06:11 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2007
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- Indiana
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Re: Captain America: the Winter Soldier *SPOILERS*
As far as the mutant situation, I figured it was a combination of things. The first is that there are likely millions of mutants at this point. Millions of super powered individuals vs. a relative handful of people who experienced lab accidents/got hit with cosmic rays/bit by a radioactive spider/chosen by an alien wish machine/etc. It's a numbers game. I also get the impression that a number of mutants have their powers activate rather violently. So, at any moment, the person next to you could all of the sudden start shooting energy beams everywhere or turn into something toxic to everyone around them. The other major factor is the idea that they represent the next step in evolution. They are living proof that current humans are about to become obsolete. I can understand why current humans would be openly hostile to that idea. Then add in good old ignorance and believing the only side that seems to have a public voice (the anti-mutant side) and you can see why Spider-Man gets a pass while everyone is silently praying the Legacy Virus kills all the mutants.
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2014-04-15, 07:16 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jun 2008
Re: Captain America: the Winter Soldier *SPOILERS*
While this would be interesting, the problem is simply that it doesn't happen. Spiderman or Doctor Strange aren't called out for being a mutant, despite the average person knowing nothing about their home life and there being mutants that actually do have similar or identical powers.
Also, it would kind of interrupt the themes of these stories and replace them with the general X-Men theme. I like X-Men, but I don't read Captain America or the Incredible Hulk to get an X-Men story.SpoilerThank you to zimmerwald1915 for the Gustave avatar.
The full set is here.
Air Raccoon avatar provided by Ceika
from the Request an OotS Style Avatar thread
A big thanks to PrinceAquilaDei for the gryphon avatar!
original image
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2014-04-15, 09:25 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2005
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- Mountain View, CA
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Re: Captain America: the Winter Soldier *SPOILERS*
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2014-04-15, 10:02 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2009
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- Denver.
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Re: Captain America: the Winter Soldier *SPOILERS*
I agree that X-men doesn't really fit in well with the rest of the Marvel universe, but that doesn't mean that I wouldn't love to see an X-men vs. Avengers movie some day.
I feel the same way about Batman. Gotham really doesn't fit in well with the rest of the DCU, but I still wouldn't want to see a Justice League movie without the Batman.Looking for feedback on Heart of Darkness, a character driven RPG of Gothic fantasy.
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2014-04-15, 11:12 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2013
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2014-04-16, 12:53 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2011
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- Dromund Kaas
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Re: Captain America: the Winter Soldier *SPOILERS*
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2014-04-16, 01:07 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2008
Re: Captain America: the Winter Soldier *SPOILERS*
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2014-04-16, 05:20 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2006
Re: Captain America: the Winter Soldier *SPOILERS*
Except that they do. Especially as Thing is a part-time Avenger as well.thnx to Starwoof for the fine avatar
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2014-04-16, 08:53 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2009
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- Where ever trouble brews
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Re: Captain America: the Winter Soldier *SPOILERS*
I would pay good money to see this. Sincerely. Doctor Who/Star Trek with super powers. But, we might end up with basically that in GotG.
As for wolverine... Hugh Jackman is a nice guy, but I'm really getting tired of his star billing in every Xmen movie he's in. I don't know why they keep centering so much of the plot on him, probably because he's the top paid actor on the set. Maybe, just a guess.
Avengers worked because of that whole disfunctional family vibe. Cap wasn't the star. Tony wasn't the center of the story. Thor wasn't even though his brother is the main antagonist. They did a pretty decent job of centering everything around the group, something I don't think Fox is capable of, something I don't think they could do with an Xmen/FF + Avengers crossover, no matter who has the rights to it.
If Sony gets flack for 'too many villians' in a Spiderman film, I can't see anyone else doing better with 'too many heroes' in a team film.~~Courage is not the lack of fear~~
"In soviet dungeon, aboleth farms you!"
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Ask your DM if Aboleth Mucus is right for you.
Side effects include coughing, sneezing, and other flu like symptoms, cancer, breathing water like a fish, loss of dignity, loss of balance, loss of bowel and bladder control."
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2014-04-16, 09:16 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2007
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- Derby, UK
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Re: Captain America: the Winter Soldier *SPOILERS*
Saw it today, very much enjoyed it and looking forward to seeing what effect it has on Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D.
Saw the trailer for X-Men too, and that looks really good as well.
Funnily enough, I think the exact opposite - I really like things that interconnect like that. It makes the universe have a better sense of richness and scale. The DCAU and the Marvel animate series of the time did it really well, I though and the Marvel Cinematic Universe is practically a dream come true. I am greatly saddened we won't see Wolverine or Spider-Man showing up as a cameo or guest-stars in an Avengers movie, personally.
Granted, the Marvel universe in particular could do with not writing its entire populace like barely-functional bigots and reactionary nut-jobs 99% of the time and act something like resembling real people and not caricatures, but that's bad writing not a fundemental problem with the X-Men and Avengers being in the same world.
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2014-04-16, 09:33 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2009
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- Where ever trouble brews
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Re: Captain America: the Winter Soldier *SPOILERS*
Back in the 90's when I first started reading Xmen and watching the awesome cartoon show, I would have agreed. I found the people rather unrealistic.
Flash forward about 20+ years, lets take the bigotry we find centering (in pockets, not in whole) around issues like race or sexual orientation...
Lets just say that these unruley mobs in Xmen were suddenly a lot more believeable. Still unrelatable? Oh, completely, that is sort of the point. But completely believeable now.
Mutants in our world, right now? Mutant Registration Act (and various public outcry's for it) would totally be a thing.
Places like Genosha? Maybe a bit of an extreme case, but believeable.
Bishops future? Unlikely but possible.~~Courage is not the lack of fear~~
"In soviet dungeon, aboleth farms you!"
"Please consult your DM before administering Steve brand Aboleth Mucus.
Ask your DM if Aboleth Mucus is right for you.
Side effects include coughing, sneezing, and other flu like symptoms, cancer, breathing water like a fish, loss of dignity, loss of balance, loss of bowel and bladder control."
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2014-04-16, 09:41 AM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2008
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- Orlando, FL
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Re: Captain America: the Winter Soldier *SPOILERS*
My wife mentioned how awesome Black Widow was in this movie. A skilled normal able to fight essentially a super-soldier and hold ground for a while. We both agree she was practically stealing the movie spotlight from Cap. several times (plus, nice to see her on a movie poster that didn't try to show her front and back at the same time).
This movie totally inspired me to run a super hero campaign with the players as the remains of SHIELD trying to hold it together against a bunch of upstart terrorist organizations taking advantage of the power vacuum.
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2014-04-16, 09:42 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2013
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Re: Captain America: the Winter Soldier *SPOILERS*
I can understand some interconectedness being appealing, and everyone likes crossovers, but at some point the world gets too crowded (think Kingdom Come) and sometimes the basic themes of the the stories just don't work with eachother. In this case, the whole mutant vs. non-mutants just doesn't work in a world with tons of other superpowered people that no one has a problem with. I just don't buy "person X with magic is a terrible person becaue she's a mutant" but "person Y with magic powers is ok because she isn't a mutant". In the case where the mutants are obviously different in appearance from normal humans, I can understand that there is some prejudice but other than that, normal people would just as easily react with "I hope I'm a mutant and get cool powers" or "I hope some fancy alien doesn't pick me to get unlimited power" as they are with the reverse.
One of the best moves DC did was seperate Vertigo from the mainstream DC universe. Sure, there were some bleedovers, but the worlds immediately felt less crowded and could develop in their own ways without contradicting the established canon. Think how many times someone like John Constantine saved the world (ok, far less than the Justice League, but still). How often wouldn't it have made sense if someone like Dr. Fate had stepped in and fixed things instead of JC? There's a limit to how many times "Oh, Superman was busy saving a falling plane" works as an excuse.
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2014-04-16, 09:59 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2007
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- Derby, UK
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Re: Captain America: the Winter Soldier *SPOILERS*
Which I think is just a facet of terrible writing, not a problem with the fundemental idea.
I agree, Marvel's handling - especially in the comics - of the issue is generally poor to risible; but because they don't try hard enough to deal with it.
I mean, with Civil War - they could nearly have addressed it, putting everyone in the X-Men's boat. But Civil War was pretty much just disasterously ineptly handled from start to finish (on pretty much every level, from the whole idea if Heroes Fight Heroes Again Instead of Villains to dealing with the primary perpetrator having to left to fracking Wolverine in his own title because nobody else could apparently be bothered) and any clever potential that idea might have has was completely wasted.
However, when suddenly much more money is involved (in the movies or even the animated shows) the quality of writing tends to jump several steps up - so I reckon the MCU would do a FAAAAR better job than the comics do.
Largely because there appears to be someone doing quality control that actually knows how to strike the balance between not doing Stupid Editorial Mandate and allowing the writers to Write Stupid Things Because Drama/It's Cool, something which appears to have almost completely escaped Marvel and DC's comic staff in the last few years.
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2014-04-16, 10:25 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2009
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- Where ever trouble brews
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Re: Captain America: the Winter Soldier *SPOILERS*
Remembering of course tha Civil War was a gimmick to sell books. Then again, so was Onslaught, but that was a far more successful gimmick, and designed from the get-go as a proper world altering event. Civil War was a total "shoot from the hip" arc.
They can't do that with the films. At least, not for a very very long time. The world isn't even fully established/built yet, they can't yet shake it up too much. The blow dealt to SHIELD alone might be too far reaching (but probably not), we will have to see in Avengers 2.
While I agree, I feel it is better to simply write a world and characters where that simply isn't a problem, and keep the problems/threats/challenges of a given book within the scope of the characters involved.
Spoiler: Off-Topic Ranting/RamblingsExample 1-You don't have a Superman in that world, someone who's very existance can and often does invalidate the rest in many scenarios.
Example 2-Gotham is situated far enough away that Batman going to visit Metropolis and teaming up with Jimmy Olsen to dig up evidence on a mobster is a big deal. Helps when these are real places located on a map, rather than fictional places, but not a requirement.
Example 3-Marvel Example Time-You don't stack the Avengers (existing team and auxillary members), the Fantastic Four, Spiderman, Daredevil, and a host of others, all in New York City (with the Xmen only a short supersonic flight away), and then try to justify why the heck anyone would ever want to be a purse-snatcher in that town. Why is the Kingpin operating there, when LA has vastly less heroes to slow him down?
Example 4-Have some of these heroes not necessarily all live at the same point in time. IE-Spiderman and street level heroes like Daredevil can exist in the same universe, but they came before people like the Avengers, who came before Xmen, and so forth.~~Courage is not the lack of fear~~
"In soviet dungeon, aboleth farms you!"
"Please consult your DM before administering Steve brand Aboleth Mucus.
Ask your DM if Aboleth Mucus is right for you.
Side effects include coughing, sneezing, and other flu like symptoms, cancer, breathing water like a fish, loss of dignity, loss of balance, loss of bowel and bladder control."
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2014-04-18, 11:16 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2012
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- Expat in Singapore
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Re: Captain America: the Winter Soldier *SPOILERS*
Watched it. Great movie. Agrees with friend that it's basically the best Marvel Avengers movie ever made.
Disagree with friend that it's the best Marvel superhero movie ever made. X2 for example is still a great movie.
Just realized Chris Evans was Johnny Storm. Holy **** he got HUGE!! This certainly motivates me to hit the gym tomorrow.
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2014-04-18, 03:22 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2013
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Re: Captain America: the Winter Soldier *SPOILERS*
Agree. There is no reason X-Men and mutants could not be rolled into the MCU, it would just require some alterations to the story, locations and timeline. Genetic mutations are just one more source of superpowers. There could be an anti-super backlash in the MCU which would cover the same themes X-Men deals with but includes all supers.
Perhaps SHIELD and the government have been aware of mutants since the 1960's or before, and have worked hard to erase all references to them and cover up incidents involving them to protect the public from panic. With the alien invasion and the Avengers, super powers are now in the public eye. SHIELD has lost most of its ability to control anything, so there is no reason for mutants to remain hidden. We find out that Xavier's school has been operating secretly all along, another deep secret kept by SHIELD that is now public. At the time of the Chitauri invasion, the X-Men may not have been formed yet or were not ready for that sort of combat, but now they get organized. Without SHIELD keeping tabs on them and covering everything up, more mutants and supers in general with villainous tendencies begin popping up causing damage and scaring the general public. X-Men now are needed, as well as other super heroes, the Avengers can't be everywhere at once.
The MCU version of X-Men could start with essentially their own version of "First Class" by telling the story of mutants in the early days hiding their identities from normal folks, made to feel ashamed of who they are by their parents, being hounded by the government (SHIELD at the time), and eventually finding refuge with Xavier and Magneto. A showdown between Magneto's brotherhood that wants mutants to be "outed" and Xavier who is willing to work with SHIELD and keep mutants protected from public view takes place, and is promptly covered up by SHIELD as a terrorist attack or a natural disaster or something (much easier to do back in the 60's or 70's). Magneto and his brotherhood are locked away by SHIELD. Skip forward to contemporary time, some of the same mutants are still active due to their powers, others are old and in mentor roles, and new ones coming into their prime, all living peacefully around the school in a remote location. Magneto escapes, mentally unstable and horribly bitter from decades of imprisonment, and finally succeeds in "outing" mutants, declaring them the next evolutionary step and the master race, creating a new brotherhood. Begin the public backlash against mutants, which eventually extends to other supers as well (since there is effectively no difference). It's X-Men time, Charles of course feels personally responsibly for Magneto. One or two of the Avengers might become tangentially involved as well, beginning a long-term cooperation with the X-Men for future events.Last edited by Thrudd; 2014-04-18 at 03:22 PM.
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2014-04-19, 12:22 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2012
- Location
- Expat in Singapore
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Re: Captain America: the Winter Soldier *SPOILERS*
(1) Agree that X-men/mutants not being in the Avengers universe is a great thing. The 2 themes don't mesh, and trying to "alter" them to make them fit together is counterproductive and unnecessary.
(2) Agree Scarlett Johanssen's orange-peel-makeup in movie looked awful. At first I thought it was an ugly salon tan, until for some reason she lost it later on in the movie and suddenly became her usual color. The straight hair also looks awful and just as fake as the orange makeup.
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2014-04-19, 12:30 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2010
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- The Primus Imperium
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Re: Captain America: the Winter Soldier *SPOILERS*
Hate me if you want. But that's your issue to fix, not mine.
Primal ego vos, estis ex nihilo.
When Gods Go To War comes out March 8th
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2014-04-19, 12:42 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2012
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- Expat in Singapore
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Re: Captain America: the Winter Soldier *SPOILERS*
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2014-04-19, 01:15 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2011
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- Canada
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Re: Captain America: the Winter Soldier *SPOILERS*
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2014-04-19, 08:28 AM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2008
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- Orlando, FL
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Re: Captain America: the Winter Soldier *SPOILERS*