Campaign Help Needed

[KnotKnormal]

Alright so I had an idea for my next campaign in a world that I've built. The players are familiar with the world and have already helped play through and flesh out a lot of the event leading up to this massive Good Vs. Evil war. This section of world history I want to break up into, 3 different campaigns to be completed in their entirety until we go on to the next, but only the first one am I struggling with.

In the first of 3 campaigns, Evil has risen up and began to take over the world. They near complete victory towards the end of the campaign but something happens to heavily tip the odds. (remaining secret incase one of my players is reading)
Anyway the part that I'm struggling with is I want my players to choose whether the want to play and evil or a good campaign. (ultimately choosing their side on the war.)

The problem is, that if they choose evil their character will become powerful, and the players will feel good, until the end when I inevitably party wipe (or have them die off screen), which will leave them feeling that everything they did was pointless.

And if they choose Good, they will be constantly fighting in loosing battles, maybe winning a small skirmish but the entire army is close behind and they have to retreat anyway. I imagine this will become discouraging to the players, and they feel hopeless and not want to play.

so what can I do? or is this a bad idea as a whole?

[BrokenChord]

There is one main thing you are doing wrong, and that is that you are pre-planning too much. You CAN have the players end up happy without changing your plans, though.

If they choose Good, they can win major battles. The thing is, this is war. And the PCs can't be everywhere. There simply needs to be more battles that Evil is winning than the PCs can tip back. Best-case scenario that will make them feel truly accomplished is if you force the Good side out of a lot of it's "land" or whatever resource is being fought over and make it clear that the Good guys only have that little bit left because of the PCs' huge contribution.

For the Evil choice, that's simple. Make them feel important and Evil during the battles, but don't gratify them too much. At the end during the turnaround, give them the option to save their own behinds and make it abundantly clear that they will NOT win the battle. Don't fiat though; they try to fight, let them. The chances of your TPK are 99.9%, and they won't be able to blame you for it.

[KnotKnormal]

I don't think I'm planning to much. I've only put together major plot points that tie campaigns together, and what is the theme, If you will, of each campaign.

And you solved my evil party problems quiet beautifully, I now know exactly what I can do there.

But the good side I still have my concerns. How do I make them win without them think the rest of the military is incopitant and how do I make them lose without them getting depressed. I see thems as a very delicate balance that I might have to gauge asiI run it and desire whether or not they need a moral boost, or to be brought down a few pegs.

My only other idea for them is the clandestine unit that brings about the shift in power. The only problem with that is I'm not yet sure how to involve new characters behind enemy lines (as a result of death and fiddling off) without the party being overly paranoid of the new PC.

[KnotKnormal]

Anyone have a solution to my good campaign problem?

[Doc_Maynot]

A. Have them involved with the secret tide turning event throughout the good campaign.

B. Want the generic soldier NPCs to be worse for their level with out seeming incompetent? Use NPC classes or racial hit dice.
The PCs due to that are automatically stronger in comparison due to having actual classes.

Alternative, the forces of good are pretty much encompassed of a few veteran soldiers (Most died in the early days of the war) which now have to lead the army, and the farmers and peasants who were brave enough to fight this great looming evil. Plus the PCs of course.

[HolyCouncilMagi]

Maybe I can offer a suggestion regarding your Good party? If they aren't commanding the forces, then they're probably a strike team, in which case all the Good generals can be competent, just less so than Evil; in which case, the Power of Plot can make what they do important.

[John Longarrow]

KnotKnormal,

For the good forces, give them lots of chances to "Rescue the towns-people", "Kill the important villian in the area", and "Sneak in to grab the McGuffin".
This should give the players a feeling of success even they are not winning the war. As they get stronger you can let them have a bigger impact, such as taking out an Enemy wizard, thus letting the Good army win a battle. Towards the end they could be involved in the "Good wins!!!" fight after having proven their abilities.

The hard part will be making Evil seem OK at its job, just very numerous. That way the PCs won't get so paranoid about Evil, especially when they see small bands of good guys winning against large forces of Evil. Of course Good still needs to fall back as Evil outflanks them...

[Shining Wrath]

The classic solution to your good campaign is the PCs are engaged in the One Desperate Chance for Victory; find the Widget of Power, reach the ancient hero who can turn the tide of battle, research the spell that will undo the BBEG's secret weapon, persuade the Elves to forgive their ancient grudge and join the Humans against the hordes.

The Ring must be cast into the fires where it was forged. That sort of thing. It's a fairly familiar trope.

So while the rest of the good guy military fights with great courage and skill to delay the inevitable victory of Overwhelming Evil, your PCs are overcoming nearly-impossible odds to do the one thing that will make all their sacrifices meaningful.

[KnotKnormal]

The classic solution to your good campaign is the PCs are engaged in the One Desperate Chance for Victory; find the Widget of Power, reach the ancient hero who can turn the tide of battle, research the spell that will undo the BBEG's secret weapon, persuade the Elves to forgive their ancient grudge and join the Humans against the hordes.

The Ring must be cast into the fires where it was forged. That sort of thing. It's a fairly familiar trope.

So while the rest of the good guy military fights with great courage and skill to delay the inevitable victory of Overwhelming Evil, your PCs are overcoming nearly-impossible odds to do the one thing that will make all their sacrifices meaningful.

Didn't think of looking at it quite like that. Thanks a bunch.

[Shining Wrath]

Didn't think of looking at it quite like that. Thanks a bunch.

You're welcome.

I can think of other stories besides LotR. There was a Conan story where the enemy wizard was lich-like and the only hope for victory was for Conan to reach his phylactery - equivalent while the army of Hyperborea held the line against the wizard's hordes. And Star Wars is pretty much Luke first having to find Yoda for training, then having to persuade his father to come back from the Dark Side. One last Jedi against an Emperor with an entire Empire's forces to command.

Which is to say, if you do it right, you can set up a finish where the players are on the verge of tears of joy as they defeat a BBEG who has armies slaughtering children and despoiling nature all over the continent. It's been a long time since I first read LotR or watched Star Wars, but I remember both as being a "Wow" moment. Everyone in the theater cheered when the Death Star exploded. When I read the story of Frodo and Sam and Gollum destroying the Ring I had to set the book down for a minute and clear my head (and my eyes). These sorts of stories can be powerful.

For a cruder approach, there's Inglorious Bastards. Who didn't want to see Jewish-American soldiers machine-gun Adolph Hitler? No relation to actual history whatsoever, but emotionally satisfying none the less.

[Mootsmcboots]

I think you could kill the entire evil party and have them feel good about it. Just have to do a few things.

Make them care about the enemy. Just cause they're evil doesn't mean they can't be/feel wronged by the other side. You can have meaningful motivations for being evil outside of "EFF YEAH I'M SO EVIL, BURN THE VILLAGE!"

Also, don't make defeating the good side/party/hero the only important feeling task. If the build up is all towards the epic final battle, and it's just 2 groups meeting on the battlefield, may the most awesome group win style, and they lose. A bit of a let down.

Now if the fight occurs while good is trying to stop evil from doing something? Like say the last legs of some ritual that ensures the return of evil, as a last ditch effort? If they complete the ritual, but lose the fight there is still satisfaction.

[Shining Wrath]

I think you could kill the entire evil party and have them feel good about it. Just have to do a few things.

Make them care about the enemy. Just cause they're evil doesn't mean they can't be/feel wronged by the other side. You can have meaningful motivations for being evil outside of "EFF YEAH I'M SO EVIL, BURN THE VILLAGE!"

Also, don't make defeating the good side/party/hero the only important feeling task. If the build up is all towards the epic final battle, and it's just 2 groups meeting on the battlefield, may the most awesome group win style, and they lose. A bit of a let down.

Now if the fight occurs while good is trying to stop evil from doing something? Like say the last legs of some ritual that ensures the return of evil, as a last ditch effort? If they complete the ritual, but lose the fight there is still satisfaction.

If they complete the ritual, and as the Elder Evil returns it looks around, spots them, and says "Kewl! Snacks!" and consumes them utterly to add their power to its own ...

well, yeah, TPK, but they are now part of the biggest baddest big bad evah.